Why all the nerfs Paizo?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Silver Crusade

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We've seen a lot of nerfs applied in the ACG errata just released. Some of them I think were necessary, but many were not expected or asked for.

Today Advanced Race Guide errata have been published. There are many more unexpected nerfs (e.g. favoured class bonuses being downgraded from +1/2 levels to +1/6 levels in many cases such as elven oracles' revelation booster).

So how did this happen?

Why so many nerfs to so many characters, all at once?

Why is it nerf season?

I just don't think the playing community asked for or expected or wanted this.


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They just decided "F+~& it, we don't care who it dicks over, or if it's a pointless nerf nobody wanted or asked for, we're changing things" it seems.

Like holy s~~~, who even had a problem with Merciless Butchery or Vanara having a good Climb speed?


I actually thought they were quite tame overall...

Granted the martials got hit the hardest (probabaly too hard) but the casters got away lightly....too lightly


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One of the devs made a hand-tipping comment during the vigilante play test. That the general game has been allowed to get overly powerful through a series of 'unfortunate' oversights and that they were working to purposefully keep the power level of the game in check going forward.

So, pretty much, this is the future of pathfinder. Get used to it.


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I think Paizo is a bit too committed to the ideal of "balance" for a company that [caster-martial argleblargle].


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They uprooted the entire tree from which the nerfbats are made from and smashed it over any martial option worthy of note, while the casters were mostly grazed at worst.

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

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I always forget where to look for the errata, could someone please link it?


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THE RULESGOD GIVETH THE RULESGOD TAKETH


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*vough*cough* extra X feats *cough*cough*


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BigDTBone wrote:

One of the devs made a hand-tipping comment during the vigilante play test. That the general game has been allowed to get overly powerful through a series of 'unfortunate' oversights and that they were working to purposefully keep the power level of the game in check going forward.

CRB wizards what?


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Oh cool, I hadn't seen the ARG errata. Hm...

Wyroot rat bunting is dead, which is good, but wyroot can now provide a maximum of 1-3 ki points per day, which is not. They didn't clear up what does and does not qualify as a weapon with a wooden haft, so your mileage can and will vary there.

They nerfed Risky Striker, the AC penalty scales with the damage bonus akin to Power Attack now. Terrific. It's now Power Attack except penalizing AC instead of attack rolls, has no synergy with two-handed weapons, and a fairly limited range of targets.

Aasimar, Sylph and Ifrit FCB's for revelations and bloodlines went from +1/2 per level to +1/6th per level. Ouch.

HOLY S$*% they killed the scarred witch doctor. It casts off Intelligence now. Wow, that one is massive.

Spoiler:
Page 140 — In the scarred witch doctor archetype, replace the Constitution Dependent entry with the following: Fierce Intelligence: A scarred witch doctor treats her Intelligence score as 2 points higher when determining the highest level of spells she can cast, the number of spells she can cast per day, her spell save DCs, her number of spells known at 1st level, and any effects of her hexes determined by her Intelligence.

Mask of Stony Demeanor had a slight price hike. From 500 GP to 8 000 GP.

Don't worry though, no changes to Changelings or Gillmen. Not a single one. No siree...


Petty Alchemy wrote:
I always forget where to look for the errata, could someone please link it?

It is available on the product's website on Paizo.com, just above "product availability". In this case, here.


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Kobold Cleaver wrote:
I think Paizo is a bit too committed to the ideal of "balance" for a company that [caster-martial argleblargle].

It's not even balance. Not a sane person's idea of balance anyway. It's just changing things for the sake of changing them.

I kinda hope they go through and nerfstomp everything from every book released so far just to see the inevitable conclusion of this philosophy (People abandon ship en maasse).

Scarab Sages

Kudaku wrote:


HOLY S%*! they killed the scarred witch doctor. It casts off Intelligence now. Wow, that one is massive.

Actually, Fierce Intelligence is a Buff. A half-orc Scarred Witch Doctor can start with a 22 casting stat at first level post errata.


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Kudaku wrote:
HOLY S#*! they killed the scarred witch doctor. It casts off Intelligence now. Wow, that one is massive.

.

(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻)

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16

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Haven't read through them yet, but I'm glad to see Mask of Stony Demeanor got a reasonable price finally. It was ludicrously cheap before.


Pathfinder Companion, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Kudaku wrote:
Petty Alchemy wrote:
I always forget where to look for the errata, could someone please link it?
It is available on the product's website on Paizo.com, just above "product availability". In this case, here.

You can also download it from here.

Silver Crusade

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Rynjin wrote:

It's not even balance. Not a sane person's idea of balance anyway. It's just changing things for the sake of changing them.

Well, I guess that I'm insane then. I've always thought that the Mask was too cheap, that some of the FCB were FAR too powerful (especially as they came with arguably overpowered races in the first place) and Scarred Witch Doctor was definitely OP.

I think that the new book is better than the old book.


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The only reasonable explanation is that Paizo has acquired a magical crystal ball that shows them the hopes and dreams of people playing the game. This crystal ball also grants them wishes, but it must be powered by sadness and woe.

So I've lost my beloved Sacred Fist, and those jerks have trained raptors that perform Vaudeville acts.

Shadow Lodge

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Silver Surfer wrote:
Granted the martials got hit the hardest (probabaly too hard) but the casters got away lightly....too lightly

In other words, Paizo is sticking to their design parameters.

Shadow Lodge

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Rynjin wrote:
I kinda hope they go through and nerfstomp everything from every book released so far ...

Probably will. For the martial options. They might strengthen a few of the spellcaster options while they're at it, though.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
supervillan wrote:

We've seen a lot of nerfs applied in the ACG errata just released. Some of them I think were necessary, but many were not expected or asked for.

Today Advanced Race Guide errata have been published. There are many more unexpected nerfs (e.g. favoured class bonuses being downgraded from +1/2 levels to +1/6 levels in many cases such as elven oracles' revelation booster).

So how did this happen?

Why so many nerfs to so many characters, all at once?

Why is it nerf season?

I just don't think the playing community asked for or expected or wanted this.

I suspect that hey found that certain FCB bonuses were so good, that they became overriding decisions in character builds. (So, yes they do pay attention to charop discussions here.)


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Imbicatus wrote:
Kudaku wrote:


HOLY S%*! they killed the scarred witch doctor. It casts off Intelligence now. Wow, that one is massive.

Actually, Fierce Intelligence is a Buff. A half-orc Scarred Witch Doctor can start with a 22 casting stat at first level post errata.

Being Constitution-based made for a truly unique full caster playing experience. Scarred Witch Doctors played entirely differently from any other full progression arcane caster in the game, which I rather enjoyed. I also really liked that we got genuinely orc-like witches - ie orcs could have shamanistic spellcasters that were powerful without being particularly bright, wise or charismatic.

Though yes, the 22 baseline is going to be terrific for yet another "hide in the back and spam Quickened Ill Omen+Ice Tomb"- brainiac half-orc witch. Yawn.


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I like it.


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Kthulhu wrote:


In other words, Paizo is sticking to their design parameters.

Meeeooow!! :))


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I think Paizo's gonna need to contact an overpowered caster to give them a Snowball to help with that burn.


Kobold Cleaver wrote:
I think Paizo is a bit too committed to the ideal of "balance" for a company that [caster-martial argleblargle].

While I agree with this sentiment (including the light/joking demeanor of it), I think that there is something to be said for the validity Paizo's pursuit of each class's internal balance.

Which is to say that each option a class has exclusively to it (feat chains, archetypes, obvious builds) being relatively equal or valuable. In terms of gameplay, that does have value because it allows and encourages variety from classes.

In my estimation, while Paizo has done a poor job with external class balance, they have done a good job of maintaining internal class balance.


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By the time errata is up, my group and I usually already have homebrew fixes for the stuff that bothers us. We're pretty warded against unwanted nerfs.

How does it work for people who do Pathfinder Society organized play? Does everything change each time they update errata?


Imbicatus wrote:
Kudaku wrote:


HOLY S%*! they killed the scarred witch doctor. It casts off Intelligence now. Wow, that one is massive.

Actually, Fierce Intelligence is a Buff. A half-orc Scarred Witch Doctor can start with a 22 casting stat at first level post errata.

that's what i was thinking, we now have extremely intelligent half-orc witches all of a sudden.


Kobold Cleaver wrote:
I think Paizo's gonna need to contact an overpowered caster to give them a Snowball to help with that burn.


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Power at the expense of uniqueness seems less like a "buff", less like a "nerf", and more like a "smooth". Let's smooth out that pesky archetype into a nice, flat, featureless plain. ;P

"But they're higher up than other witches!"

Featureless mesa, then, smartass.

Scarab Sages

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Bandw2 wrote:
Kobold Cleaver wrote:
I think Paizo's gonna need to contact an overpowered caster to give them a Snowball to help with that burn.

Nothing can remove burn except 8 hours of rest, don't you know?


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That sounds like a non-cleric problem.

Silver Crusade

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Joe Hex wrote:

By the time errata is up, my group and I usually already have homebrew fixes for the stuff that bothers us. We're pretty warded against unwanted nerfs.

How does it work for people who do Pathfinder Society organized play? Does everything change each time they update errata?

In a home game sure, you can ignore unwanted nerfs.

In PFS we're stuck with them. Which means, imho, that Paizo is damaging the organised play campaign just now. Too many resets for too many PCs.


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A quick read through of the ARG errata seems very reasonable to me.

I particularly love the adjustment to the Aasimar, Dhampir and Tiefling starting ages.

Shadow Lodge

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9 pages of errata for a 1st printing to a 2nd printing? I think we're pretty much seeing confirmation that there wont' be a Pathfinder 2E proper, they'll just gradually change things to the point where 1st printing books are utterly useless.


Joe Hex wrote:
By the time errata is up, my group and I usually already have homebrew fixes for the stuff that bothers us. We're pretty warded against unwanted nerfs.

Do you have that typed up? I'd rather like to see it.


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supervillan wrote:
Joe Hex wrote:

By the time errata is up, my group and I usually already have homebrew fixes for the stuff that bothers us. We're pretty warded against unwanted nerfs.

How does it work for people who do Pathfinder Society organized play? Does everything change each time they update errata?

In a home game sure, you can ignore unwanted nerfs.

In PFS we're stuck with them. Which means, imho, that Paizo is damaging the organised play campaign just now. Too many resets for too many PCs.

Yeah, I could imagine that needing to tweak your character every time there is a change would get frustrating. Especially if the changes feel unnecessary.


Rosita the Riveter wrote:
Joe Hex wrote:
By the time errata is up, my group and I usually already have homebrew fixes for the stuff that bothers us. We're pretty warded against unwanted nerfs.
Do you have that typed up? I'd rather like to see it.

Honestly, it's mostly post-it-notes stuck to the pages we've homebrewed. :)


Mythraine wrote:

A quick read through of the ARG errata seems very reasonable to me.

I particularly love the adjustment to the Aasimar, Dhampir and Tiefling starting ages.

Wait, do people actually use the starting ages? I always ignored them. Granted, my campaigns have an in-universe minimum PC age of 17 1/2 to 21, depending on exactly where the campaign is taking place, but I've never seen normal campaigns use the starting ages.


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supervillan wrote:
Joe Hex wrote:

By the time errata is up, my group and I usually already have homebrew fixes for the stuff that bothers us. We're pretty warded against unwanted nerfs.

How does it work for people who do Pathfinder Society organized play? Does everything change each time they update errata?

In a home game sure, you can ignore unwanted nerfs.

I know I harp on about this a bit but:

>Implying that designer's errata and FAQs don't signal to players at all.
>Implying I can walk into games with a new group and expect houserules I agree with, if there are conscious ones.
A rude way of presenting the case (sorry) but I rarely find this ideal scenario ever plays out.

Kobold Cleaver wrote:
Power at the expense of uniqueness seems less like a "buff", less like a "nerf", and more like a "smooth". Let's smooth out that pesky archetype into a nice, flat, featureless plain. ;P

Now now, you totally have features! You still get a natural armor boost...that you probably won't actually utilize because d6 with CON secondary at best does not scream "melee!"

Rynjin wrote:
I kinda hope they go through and nerfstomp everything from every book released so far just to see the inevitable conclusion of this philosophy (People abandon ship en maasse).

Whether those of us who enjoy CharOP engage in a mass exodus or not; a large number of groups probably just don't care. Heck, some of the stuff we've seen go (Divine Prot., now SWD) I've known a majority of GMs near me ban (GMs that bother with errata at FAQs at that). Assuming that sample is at all valid, such fixes do amount to increasing options for many people.

Now, the fact that some of these are now traps that on the flip side are still non-options, is a different query. That query being "Is there a medium button?"

Actually...I suspect many would still seek to ban Scarred Witch Doctor (or cry that half-elves and half-orcs should lose the other races effects stuff - which is actually a very s#~#ty prospect (it neatly reflects an idea of these being versatile)) since being a pseudo-two higher in your casting stat for very little trade-off otherwise is pretty obvious. I mean, half-orc is not a bad race - so why not play one? You'll be a better Witch at negligible cost!


Rosita the Riveter wrote:
Mythraine wrote:

A quick read through of the ARG errata seems very reasonable to me.

I particularly love the adjustment to the Aasimar, Dhampir and Tiefling starting ages.

Wait, do people actually use the starting ages? I always ignored them. Granted, my campaigns have an in-universe minimum PC age of 17 1/2 to 21, depending on exactly where the campaign is taking place, but I've never seen normal campaigns use the starting ages.

That's practically Middle-Age for Orc and Goblin PCs


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I love it. Nerf everything. I love the whining and hate the powergamers. The onslaught of complaints shows that too many powergamers have no concept of actual roleplay.

I also find it interesting that a glance through the forum archives reveals the endless complaints that Paizo doesn't care about game balance.

Now low and behold - they care "too much" about balance.

What a world. What a world. Goldilocks can't find a bed to sleep in.


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Brother Fen wrote:
I love it. Nerf everything. I love the whining and hate the powergamers. The onslaught of complaints shows that too many powergamers have no concept of actual roleplay.

Stormwind called. He wants his fallacy back.


kyrt-ryder wrote:
Rosita the Riveter wrote:
Mythraine wrote:

A quick read through of the ARG errata seems very reasonable to me.

I particularly love the adjustment to the Aasimar, Dhampir and Tiefling starting ages.

Wait, do people actually use the starting ages? I always ignored them. Granted, my campaigns have an in-universe minimum PC age of 17 1/2 to 21, depending on exactly where the campaign is taking place, but I've never seen normal campaigns use the starting ages.
That's practically Middle-Age for Orc and Goblin PCs

Depends on the campaign setting. I tied all the playable races to the same general lifespan.


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Because playing fallacy man is always a giggle:

Brother Fen wrote:
The onslaught of complaints shows that too many powergamers have no concept of actual roleplay.

Stormwind fallacy.

Quote:

I also find it interesting that a glance through the forum archives reveals the endless complaints that Paizo doesn't care about game balance.

Now low and behold - they care "too much" about balance.

What a world. What a world. Goldilocks can't find a bed to sleep in.

Hasty generalization.

More seriously - people can hold legitimate complaints (I personally actually have few real dogs in recent fights and mostly just enjoy the discussion) about X and still care for Y. Particularly when X and Y can be co-dependent factors in a system.
Secondarily, the idea that: a) The people complaining are one homogeneous whole or that b) If they are, they must hold opinions on one extreme or another, rather than perhaps maintaining a more moderated position; Strikes me as so patently stupid that I have to confess, I am wondering if I've been baited! That is probably overly harsh, but I say it to ask for a clarification of some provocative statements.


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Don't use the errata. If/when you play in PFS, consider it house rules just like you might playing with any new table.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber
Rosita the Riveter wrote:
Mythraine wrote:

A quick read through of the ARG errata seems very reasonable to me.

I particularly love the adjustment to the Aasimar, Dhampir and Tiefling starting ages.

Wait, do people actually use the starting ages? I always ignored them. Granted, my campaigns have an in-universe minimum PC age of 17 1/2 to 21, depending on exactly where the campaign is taking place, but I've never seen normal campaigns use the starting ages.

i hate starting ages. I have been forced to use it by dms who thought that was crucial to their world. I can't stand the idea that elves are somehow so mentally disadvantaged that it takes them 100 years to learn the skills of an adolescent. I know it's meaningless fluff, but I care about my PC history and I feel obligated to write "I spent the next ten years learning to tie my shoes. Once I felt I had mastered that, I focused on eating without smearing food all over my face for the next decade. In truth this turned out harder than I could have imagined and I was well into my sixties before my wetnap needs diminished."

It works if you imagine every elf as an Adam Sandler character.


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Brother Fen wrote:

I love it. Nerf everything. I love the whining and hate the powergamers. The onslaught of complaints shows that too many powergamers have no concept of actual roleplay.

I also find it interesting that a glance through the forum archives reveals the endless complaints that Paizo doesn't care about game balance.

Now low and behold - they care "too much" about balance.

What a world. What a world. Goldilocks can't find a bed to sleep in.

>Implying all those nerfs don't invalidate character concepts too


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Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Physically Unfeasible wrote:

Whether those of us who enjoy CharOP engage in a mass exodus or not; a large number of groups probably just don't care. Heck, some of the stuff we've seen go (Divine Prot., now SWD) I've known a majority of GMs near me ban (GMs that bother with errata at FAQs at that). Assuming that sample is at all valid, such fixes do amount to increasing options for many people.

Now, the fact that some of these are now traps that on the flip side are still non-options, is a different query. That query being "Is there a medium button?"

I think this is quite perceptive. I quite enjoy watching you rules-knowledgeable people debate the finer points but it has very little to do with how things work at our table. It's hard to evaluate just how large the cohort is who enjoy CharOP as you put it. Probably even harder to calculate how many people like Pathfinder/Paizo but couldnt care less about the caster/martial divide nor whether things are nerfed or otherwise.

Untangling the hyperbole from the genuine complaints is difficult sometimes (people have been declaring 'the end is nigh if paizo continue like this...' for a few years now without it actually slowing the growth of the game - I suspect when the star does fade it's going to be just as much fashion as anything to do with the actual rules).

Overall, I think it's worth bearing in mind that Paizo have a broader agenda than each of us. Whatever the thing is that we each value most highly about Pathfinder/Paizo - it's not as important to Paizo, since they have to balance the needs of a large, disparate group with conflicting and even mutually inconsistent demands. The nature of compromise is that nobody gets what they want.

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