Meet the Iconics: Ulka Oathshriek

I like her storyline, but it seems too much for an iconic. She's a renowned mercenary who's hung out with high profile plot significant NPCs and groups, leads her own mercenary group, has "proven herself over and over" in countless battles and made untold riches for herself.

That's a lot of baggage for a character someone might start playing at level 1.

I could see an argument that level 1 Ulka is just after paragraph 7, right after fleeing her post... but that leaves a lot of predestined backstory build into her narrative.

Feels kind of awkward to me. Contrast with Grimmyr who also has a lot going on but his accomplishments and progress are a lot more vague. He has a goal, but there's no inherent sense of establishment.

... Speaking of Grimmyr. A lot has been said about her art, but I'm not a fan of Paizo deciding to make both Battlecry iconics rock the huge arms tiny head thick neck ultra short legs look. Book art has a lot of variety, but I feel like key art sometimes has a problem of centralizing body types.

I like her storyline, but it seems too much for an iconic. She's a renowned mercenary who's hung out with high profile plot significant NPCs and groups, leads her own mercenary group, has "proven herself over and over" in countless battles and made untold riches for herself.

That's a lot of baggage for a character someone might start playing at level 1.

I could see an argument that level 1 Ulka is just after paragraph 7, right after fleeing her post... but that leaves a lot of predestined backstory build into her narrative.

Feels kind of awkward to me. Contrast with Grimmyr who also has a lot going on but his accomplishments and progress are a lot more vague. He has a goal, but there's no inherent sense of establishment.

... Speaking of Grimmyr. A lot has been said about her art, but I'm not a fan of Paizo deciding to make both Battlecry iconics rock the huge arms tiny head thick neck ultra short legs look. Book art has a lot of variety, but I feel like key art sometimes has a problem of centralizing body types.

I've got the opposite take tbh. Her backstory is the kind i've seen from far more level 1 characters than one that's well rounded and reasonable. Also, it's not like other iconics don't have similar deals with them.

I'm not a huge fan of either the story nor the design here. The story feels juvenile and edgy in an angsty modern teen kind of way ("the fighting blackens her soul" for example), and simultaneously makes her too much of a special wunderkind (raised by and studied under a master tactician) and completely handwaves her capabilities. In many ways its exactly the kind of backstory my friends and I would have made when we first started playing Pathfinder, so in that sense you could say it's perfect... though I expect a bit more from Paizo.

I'm particularly unsatisfied with the total lack of goals - it even ends with her expecting to meet suicide by combat. She has no particular ambition and no particular enemies (Despite the fact that she's killed so many people. She even admits she could go back to Urgir any time, making even that source of drama tepid). Does she fight for the helpless or does she fight for the money or does she fight just because her only home is on the battlefield? It's vague, non-committal. She just fights and feels vaguely guilty.

It also does nothing to show that she's a good commander! People come to her banner and she "sen(ds) them into combat to their deaths" and yells at them a lot. We never get a scene showing how she outwits her enemy, how her tactics save the day, how being a commander is a cool thing. Presumably she must be good if she's survived and continues to attract people to her, but y'know, please show it to us! It's the entire point of an iconic is to be the representative of that class.

Unfortunately, the visual design also just doesn't look like a cool character I'd want to play as. She looks like a random lieutenant you beat along the way to the boss in an AP.

RE AI: I know people are paranoid now about AI seeping in everywhere as it gets more polished, but I expect Paizo has a high degree of integrity for things like this.

I definitely found it all…confusing. Like there were some more notes in an original draft that got lost. Most of the second half talks of her mercenary exploits, gold and glory but then the line about “refusing to fight for the helpless” would be “shameful” makes…no sense. She’s painted as a mercenary, however conflicted. Nothing is said throughout her early backstory suggests she has developed a social cognizance or attitudes toward power and control.

Mostly she seems agitated and angry. She doesn’t even seem to..revel in anything and nor does she seem to possess any great acumen either strategically or tactically or even…charismatically that we can see presented. She yells and is good at commanding. That’s how…bad she is.

I’m usually a super-fan of Wayne Reynolds work, but I would echo comments saying this one doesn’t…hit. Her kit looks strange, the breastplate looks suitable scavenged, but the markings on her arms feel a bit…bleh, and the Lord Kitchener/Euro-nob sash with also possibly suitable scavenged medals and fetishes don’t seem to work with the whole. I do love her standard/weapon. Not really a fan of the “brute” slouch and eyes - she looks feral and not at all commanding. Sure looks can be deceiving, and I obvs can’t *hear* her battleshriek, but yes, she kinda does look like a…bad…lieutenant.

RE AI: I know people are paranoid now about AI seeping in everywhere as it gets more polished, but I expect Paizo has a high degree of integrity for things like this.

Agreed. Paizo's stance on AI usage is pretty strong. I'd be really surprised to find it here.

Eleanor, Michael, I'm sorry these comments are such a mess. This is a perfectly good microfiction, a solid exploration of guilt, trauma, and cycles of violence in a limited wordcount.

It also doesn't strike me as overly drawn out or open ended in comparison to any of the other pointedly general iconic backgrounds. Y'all think Valeros is blessed with specific goals? Does Nhalmika's decades-long military history preclude her from being 1st level?

We're obviously setting up a "Grizzled and war-hardened vet (who's already interacting with the skirmish rules) is forced to soften up and find genuine companionship with a Gentle Giant" arc. Leaving room for character growth and exploration is the whole point of these, and personally I enjoy a character with some issues to work through.

And as others have pointed out, she's definitely experiencing some cognitive dissonance, but that's pretty common. People are complex. It's one of the reasons that I'm glad the overly simplistic alignment system is gone.

I'm not sure that SHE experiences cognitive dissonance. And if she does that's a problem (as you've said, people are complex; and I don't even care really). The problem is WE experience heavy cognitive dissonance. And I'm pretty sure we won't be the exception and new players won't be very attracted to this iconic.

The people complaining that her backstory is too edgy have never heard of Seltyiel fr

Ravingdork wrote:

Yes, Paizo's anti-AI stance is very strong and clear, I agree, but that doesn't necessarily prevent dishonest contributors from lying to them.

Whether or not AI was involved one thing is abundantly clear: this piece is a far cry from Paizo's best.

Ive made clear my thoughts in this thread and not being the biggest fan of this backstory. What you're typing there is dangerously close to crossing a line, and imo, entirely way too hyperbolic for what's actually been written.

Well, alright. I'll leave it alone then.

The people complaining that her backstory is too edgy have never heard of Seltyiel fr

Well, we haven't seen (right?) pf2 take on it. And even if we did, I don't think the problem is edgyness: it would be at least clear. The problem is I don't understand which is the main theme, it's too all over the place and inconsistent. Yes, people can be like that. But no, I don't think that's how iconics' stories should be like.

I do feel like there's an interesting throughline of how violence engenders more violence, and how Ulka may have ended up becoming a lot like the people who orphaned her, but I feel that's somewhat undermined by the random line about fighting for the helpless, which itself seems to be pretty directly contradicted by the description of her mercenary work leaving orphans just like her. It seems like the intent was to make her seem somewhat honorable instead of leaning fully into what would otherwise be a a relatively villainous character (which I would've been totally fine with; we could use more evil iconics), but the end result just makes her seem like a hypocrite in my opinion, which I don't think is necessarily the best way to sell an iconic.

I also feel Ulka's abilities as a Commander were almost entirely sidelined in her backstory: she received instruction from a skilled strategist, she shouts really loud, and that's pretty much it. By contrast, Samo and Nahoa, two of the game's most recent iconics, both have their abilities at the heart of their stories, with Samo saving her people's spirits from a group of kushtaka and Nahoa using his divine spark to defeat the demon owl Pāmalō. I suppose the implication is that Ulka's leadership is what got her mercenary band to succeed, but that could've perhaps been reinforced a bit better with descriptions of her strategic acumen and battle tactics, neither of which appear all that present.

Just to be clear on our stance with AI usage, we do not use it, for art or writing, and neither do our freelancers (we check to make sure and clear each one, and our editing team checks once they've received text).

DMurnett wrote:

The people complaining that her backstory is too edgy have never heard of Seltyiel fr

Well, we haven't seen (right?) pf2 take on it. And even if we did, I don't think the problem is edgyness: it would be at least clear. The problem is I don't understand which is the main theme, it's too all over the place and inconsistent. Yes, people can be like that. But no, I don't think that's how iconics' stories should be like.

For the record I agree with this criticism, I think Ulka's personality and values as outlined here are very confused and confusing, but I did see some criticism leveled against how (supposedly) needlessly edgy it is, which I don't think is valid criticism especially when compared to some of the earlier Meet the Iconics, most notably Seltyiel.

Speaking of whom, it's true that we haven't had a new Meet The Iconics for Seltyiel, but the only returning Iconic we did get one for was Yoon (pretty justified I'd say) which to me implies the old 1e ones stand. And we did get an Iconic Encounter for him leading up to the release of Secrets of Magic, which were originally (and to some extent still are) meant to take the place of an entirely new Meet for returning Iconics. Reading through it... Yeah no nothing has changed, Seltyiel is still as much of an edgelord as before.

Speaking of whom, it's true that we haven't had a new Meet The Iconics for Seltyiel, but the only returning Iconic we did get one for was Yoon (pretty justified I'd say) which to me implies the old 1e ones stand. And we did get an Iconic Encounter for him leading up to the release of Secrets of Magic, which were originally (and to some extent still are) meant to take the place of an entirely new Meet for returning Iconics. Reading through it... Yeah no nothing has changed, Seltyiel is still as much of an edgelord as before.

Oh, yes, thanks. What's even funnier, he's all over Secrets of magic (and I forgot), so he is quite officially still the magus iconic. But as far as I see he hasn't got a pregen.

Non-core iconics haven't been getting pregens until very recently, I'm sure he'll get one when the Magus class is finally remastered

Just to be clear on our stance with AI usage, we do not use it, for art or writing, and neither do our freelancers (we check to make sure and clear each one, and our editing team checks once they've received text).

I've never heard of a full proof method of detecting such things in writing (or even a reliable one), but I trust your team is far more capable at it than I likely ever will be.

Thank you for always being so kind, patient, and clear with us, Maya.

I'm reminded of the early PF2 play test orc art where they looked extremely gorilla like. I think they pulled back on that because of real world race politics, but it feels like they never quite established what orcs actually looked like in PF2 after that. The physical description in the orc ancestry doesn't even mesh with the pictures on the same page.

This looks like an attempt by Reynolds to align the art with the description and try to create a coherent visual identity for orcs, but there's been too much conflicting art out there already for people to accept it.

I at least appreciate orcs looking less human in the abstract, especially since half orcs already exist to fill the green skinned human niche. It's part of why I always appreciated Pathfinder elves looking so inhuman.

I've never heard of a full proof method of detecting such things in writing (or even a reliable one), but I trust your team is far more capable at it than I likely ever will be.

Thank you for always being so kind, patient, and clear with us, Maya.

And I always will be! ^_^

Ravingdork wrote:

I've never heard of a full proof method of detecting such things in writing (or even a reliable one), but I trust your team is far more capable at it than I likely ever will be.

Thank you for always being so kind, patient, and clear with us, Maya.

And I always will be! ^_^

As someone who works in education, I can confirm it is a scourge, but one thing that does help is having a body of evidence of a writers previous works, either written or pre AI age. Styles/habits are really hard to change.

Maya, if you are able to discuss it, do you know what kinds of checks Paizo is using to stop AI works? I'm am 100% with your companies anti AI policy, I'm just curious what tools are being used in the industry. For example, Turnitin is very popular in education atm.

On topic, not a huge fan of the artwork, but a twisted and contradictory hero who just wants to find a noble end while wishing those around her would stop being so noble for her, it's a good story buildup. Will be interesting to see where they go. Good job to both the artist and writer. While I may not like all the elements of the story and art, I applaud the efforts put into place to make such things in a very complex and old game world.

As someone who works in education, I can confirm it is a scourge, but one thing that does help is having a body of evidence of a writers previous works, either written or pre AI age. Styles/habits are really hard to change.

Maya, if you are able to discuss it, do you know what kinds of checks Paizo is using to stop AI works? I'm am 100% with your companies anti AI policy, I'm just curious what tools are being used in the industry. For example, Turnitin is very popular in education atm.

On topic, not a huge fan of the artwork, but a twisted and contradictory hero who just wants to find a noble end while wishing those around her would stop being so noble for her, it's a good story buildup. Will be interesting to see where they go. Good job to both the artist and writer. While I may not like all the elements of the story and art, I applaud the efforts put into place to make such things in a very complex and old game world.

It is my understanding that they approach it as you mentioned! Evaluating the entire body of work of each writer as well as an AI checker. We really value our creatives and their work here.

It is my understanding that they approach it as you mentioned! Evaluating the entire body of work of each writer as well as an AI checker. We really value our creatives and their work here.

Glad to hear it. In the modern era it is easy to just let things slide. Taking the hard route is the right course nowadays. May you and Paizo keep taking the right calls.

Also, thank you so much for the transparency. It's good to see inside the eyes of the company and having a good rep to talk to us.

Maya Coleman wrote:

It is my understanding that they approach it as you mentioned! Evaluating the entire body of work of each writer as well as an AI checker. We really value our creatives and their work here.

Glad to hear it. In the modern era it is easy to just let things slide. Taking the hard route is the right course nowadays. May you and Paizo keep taking the right calls.

Also, thank you so much for the transparency. It's good to see inside the eyes of the company and having a good rep to talk to us.

I agree with your praise for Paizo, I love me some transparency and humanity. But I have to clarify that in all eras it's been easy to just let things slide, where the right course has typically been the harder route. Data show there's nothing especially egregious about the modern nowadays except that we're the ones dealing with it this time around. Cheers.

I know pathfinder has heavy stylized art, but she doesn't look like an Orc at aaaaalllll.
Perhaps she was born with a deformity? it would make sense as a writing tool to enforce how resilient and strong willed she is to overcome that as well as her past.