The Godsrain Prophecies Part One

Wednesday, February 7, 2024

I begin my annotation holding death between my talons. An overly poetic beginning, that, and one I will certainly change when I report back to my Lady. Perhaps this a consequence of reading the Godsrain Prophecies, each with its dire tale of the death of a god and everything that comes after. I am reminded of the year I read What Comes Down: A Treatise on Mortal Falls and used the word defenestrate so often in my papers that Lorminos asked me to limit the word to once per page at most!

As my earlier field notes on these works detail, I learned of the Godsrain Prophecies not long ago, and have acted with great haste to locate as many as possible, despite my many doubts as to their accuracy. I must confess that I have also felt a certain unanticipated exhilaration in bringing rigor to a rumor, despite the grim contents of the documents once discovered. I believe that I may almost understand the impulse of adventurers (a mortal drive that remains an obscure field of study), though I likely took as much joy from detailing my methods as I did in undertaking them. Research rarely moves at such a rapid pace, but then rarely has any researcher been so motivated!

What to make of these “prophecies” is a wholly different matter, and one that I must settle before reporting to my Lady, lest I stir up visions of doom with no attempt at context or framing, no better than a doomsday caller singing in the streets! Any thought of these being accurate seems at first impossible, given the current failure of prophecy overall, and their author has yet to be identified. I immediately recall the many false omens in the years after Aroden’s death, many of which had Golarion perishing brutally a thousand times (and will one day, I assume, make for a fascinating set of studies).

Still, there is something about these pages that makes me ill at ease. The detail, perhaps, or the nature of the futures they forecast. This is heightened, of course, by the subject of the first of them, which I hoped never to find but must still document faithfully, as I have below. Perhaps the thing that troubles me lies in this simple question: how do you tell your Lady that she’s prophesied to die?

—Yivali, Apprentice Researcher for the Lady of Graves




The Death of Pharasma

When Pharasma dies, she dies by inches. She grasps for a prophecy beyond her reach and the skin on her fingertips blisters. She dreams the lost feeling of futures foretold and wakes with a tooth ground to ashes. She feels an uncertainty chilling the air, and her bones grow cold and brittle. What changed with Aroden’s death? Why has prophecy faltered? The questions race and turn and tumble, edges carving at her mind as she tries to judge the mortal souls whose futures she’s unsure of.

Is it any wonder that she shatters?

The god they called Survivor dies alone inside her palace—cold, exhausted, broken. No psychopomps to judge her works, no Atropos to take her reign. Most of her servants lose their power in the instant she dies, and no one comes to place her in a plane for all eternity. The fear of how she might be judged has kept her upright more than once, but in the end it’s simply this—she is and then she isn’t. Pharasma ceases to be.

Death does not pause for the Lady of Graves. Death does not stop for anyone. Mortals succumb to the usual things—some in the arms of those who loved them, some at the hands of those who did not. Some in a show of bravery, some in a haze of regret, some drenched hot with sweat or fear or love or loss or anger. All plunge into the River of Souls like jagged rocks sent tumbling, leaving eddies in their wake that shift and roil the current. The river churns with energy, a swirling froth of rapids, throwing souls from in its midst with no set rhyme or reason. The guardians who watch it pass are nothing more than onlookers, as this soul bound for Heaven is shunted off to Abaddon, and that one at the brink of Hell is flung into Nirvana. With souls no longer guided to the places where they’re most aligned, the outer planes turn turbulent, splintering to factions where they once found harmony. Fights break out, and rescue missions; pacts and trades and promises no sooner made than torn apart—a muddied bloodied mess of souls askew for all eternity.

Pharasma’s former psychopomps, distracted by the chaos or the torrents of the river or the sorrow of their grief, rarely see the predators who feast within the river’s wake—daemons and worse who grab souls up by the handful, taking them to sell or gift or simply disappear with.

Among the mortals, resurrections now begin to falter, as souls are often missing from the places where they’re sought. Even for those who never cared a moment for Pharasmin things, the new finality of death leaves many saying prayers for Pharasma, desperate for a sign that she might one day still reach out.

Her followers are hardest hit—the clerics and diviners, the midwives and morticians—their boons no longer functioning, their spells bereft of power. Those who battle the undead see their advantage dissipate, and some who cannot fight or flee fall easily to undead foes, their victories turned to slaughters in a hundred grim tableaus.

Urgathoa laughs, heartily, to see a foe defeated, declaring 50 days of feasts and manifesting blood-soaked wine in any empty cup. She calls upon her followers to press their new advantages, as those who fought her worshippers are left to face a reckoning—some turning to another god whose purpose fits their calling, some searching for a prophecy or ritual or sacrifice that might bring back Pharasma and the surety she gave them, some finding other pledges for their cause.

Above it all, a visage hangs and grins upon the chaos—Groetus watching eagerly from just above the Spire. Some say the crescent of his moon begins to wax in earnest, as we move ever closer to the end times he desires.

An array of 20 portraits depicting the gods of the Pathfinder setting. Pharasma’s portrait has been marked “safe.”

A prophecy foretelling the death of Pharasma specifically caused by the death of prophecy in the Age of Lost Omens certainly poses a paradox.





An unpleasant future, to say the least. I shudder to think of it! Thankfully, much of this prophecy remains questionable at best. Not only are there are many questions raised here, including the likeliness of my fellow psychopomps to simply cease their work and let souls be ravaged, whatever their grief, but this also appears to note the cause of my Lady’s death as indirectly caused by the end of prophecy. And yet if there is no prophecy, then how has this one come to be? A paradox, if I ever knew one, and one that I cannot yet untangle. Perhaps my next annotation will offer greater clarity.


About the Author

Erin Roberts has been thrilled to be able to contribute a few small threads to the fabric of Golarion in the pages of books like Pathfinder Lost Omens Firebrands, Pathfinder Lost Omens Highhelm, and Pathfinder Lost Omens Travel Guide. In addition to her work for Paizo, she freelances across the TTRPG world (and was selected as a Diana Jones Award Emerging Designer Program Winner in 2023), has had fiction published in magazines including Asimov’s Science Fiction, Clarkesworld, and The Dark, and talks about writing every week on the Writing Excuses podcast. Catch up with her latest at linktr.ee/erinroberts.

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LoreMonger13 wrote:
Michael Sayre wrote:
UnArcaneElection wrote:


Well, that confirms that just one dies, and that it is of the Core 20,

It is for sure more than one deity that dies during the course of War of Immortals, but only one of the core 20.

*Jaunty clockwork jazz music stops*

*Starts sweating in Brigh fanboy* Well that's just MEAN to drop on our heads! D'=

(Yeh, I know Brigh is part of Triune in Starfinder, but yadda yadda different systems different lore ETC ETC)

To be fair... Brigh dying could be part of how Casandalee fuses with another diety.

Liberty's Edge

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I just want to say I am stoked to play this and pray to the Four that it lives up to the hype!

To the Pantheon,

As the crescent moon of Groetus waxes, the tapestry of fate frays. The end times beckon, shadowing all in uncertainty. Unity or oblivion awaits. Choose wisely.

In the shadow of the end,
A Cleric of Groetus

Liberty's Edge

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Also, the loss of Abadar would almost certainly result in the loss or embezzlement of a TON, if not the majority of all banked coin and valued assets across the globe given the fact that the crumbling of the church would make the institutions fail as well as the instant and irrevocable loss of all extradimensional vaults that the church uses to protect its assets once the divine powers of his followers dries up.

There would be some wealth that is protected by mundane means but given just how trivial it would be to pull a heist on such locations when you have access to the world shaping and descriptive powers and magic I cannot imagine that even those would be safe for very long since anyone who would guard it with their life would likey be armed and paid by the church itself which would no longer exist...

If you're looking for something that would shake the entire setting to its core and probably spark widespread panic, revolution, and hyperinflation of the value of coinage/currency this would be just the ticket but I'm not sure that economic intrigue and the global collapse of governments and businesses is what they're shooting for.


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Mark Moreland wrote:
Project: J-ko wrote:

Oh my God...all 20 of 'em. So week by week is how we're gonna find o-WAIT NO!!

There's only 10 weeks until April 16th. They're only gonna clear half the names by the time that stream goes live, if I'm doing my math right (which is questionable).

Correct. There's enough teasing in this thread and campaign in general that I do feel a certain level of transparency and expectation management is warranted. This is a 10-part series, during which we will reveal 10 of the core twenty "safe" from the pending demise set to fall upon one of their number. This means that when we do our big stream on April 16—in which we'll reveal not only who dies, but a bunch of info on tie-in products and more—there will be 10 potential victims. We didn't want to narrow it down too much and ruin the fun of speculation!

And now back to being a cagey instigator!

From a lore perspective these are very interesting. Obviously, the prophecies themselves are meant to be false but are the outcomes of said prophecies, such as how the souls are heralded in Pharasma's absence, intended to be taken as canon statements of what would happen in the aftermath, or is it just one potential version of what would happen if Pharasma was dead as well?

I know a lot of people theorized she was safe because of potential ramifications, but it'd be cool to understand if this is actually the order of things that Pharasma creates or not.


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MadamReshi wrote:
I still find the clue about 'Shyka will survive' so specific.

I think it's more an observation about how it's somewhat impractical to actually kill Shyka. Since if you kill Shyka the next time you meet them, you've really killed "one of the entities that makes up Shyka" and within seconds a different entity that makes up Shyka will have taken over and that one isn't dead.

Hypothetically in order to kill Shyka you have to kill every single being that signed on to for the timeshare that is "being Shyka" which is extremely impractical, since nobody has bothered to enumerate how many faces Shyka wears- it might number in the billions.

The sense in which Shyka is powerful is not the same sense in which like Sarenrae is powerful. Shyka cannot cut a 20 mile long chasm with their scimitar, but Shyka would know not to do that because part of them has already seen what happened. Indeed, had Sarenrae bothered to ask Shyka they would simply suggest that Sarenrae give much clearer instructions regarding "go not live near the Pit of Gormuz." Shyka is less "omniscient" and more "has had innumerable first person views of every event in history΅.


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Themetricsystem wrote:

Also, the loss of Abadar would almost certainly result in the loss or embezzlement of a TON, if not the majority of all banked coin and valued assets across the globe given the fact that the crumbling of the church would make the institutions fail as well as the instant and irrevocable loss of all extradimensional vaults that the church uses to protect its assets once the divine powers of his followers dries up.

There would be some wealth that is protected by mundane means but given just how trivial it would be to pull a heist on such locations when you have access to the world shaping and descriptive powers and magic I cannot imagine that even those would be safe for very long since anyone who would guard it with their life would likey be armed and paid by the church itself which would no longer exist...

If you're looking for something that would shake the entire setting to its core and probably spark widespread panic, revolution, and hyperinflation of the value of coinage/currency this would be just the ticket but I'm not sure that economic intrigue and the global collapse of governments and businesses is what they're shooting for.

It would certainly be...novel. But I don't really think adventurers are equipped to deal with a stock market crash or widespread financial panic. Especially because most PCs have the economic sophistication of a prepper with all of his assets stashed under his mattress in the form of gold bars, canned corn, and automatic weapons.

Besides, "create liquidity" and "summon collateral" aren't really spells. And don't get me started on the horror show that would result from dragon hoards suddenly losing all their value in the face of runaway inflation.


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Calliope5431 wrote:
Besides, "create liquidity" and "summon collateral" aren't really spells.

based on how much hiring someone to cast a spell is, I think all spells create liquidity and can act as collateral


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magnuskn wrote:
Stormlord506 wrote:
Just gonna throw my two cents out there, I think it's gonna be Iomedae. No reason to have two heralds of Aroden in the core 20.
Actually that should engender some rivalry between the two, which would be good narrative fuel.

Imagine the drama, though, of Iomedae dying in Arazni's arms and passing on her portfolio to her. Arazni is now forced into the role of the Successor, but Iomedae wants her to do what she couldn't, say what she wouldn't. The new Successor's active dislike for Aroden would reflect our own maturing understanding of the God of Humanity and perhaps give Iomedae a final bit of closure to her arc. She never wanted to be the Successor, and her loyalty to Aroden prevented her from realizing she was better at her job than he ever was.

In general, if it's not someone like Torag (and Torag dying alongside the orc gods while fighting against a mutual threat would be a great way to send him off), my strongest theory is that whoever dies, Arazni will be given/take a piece of their portfolio, as Desna did with Curchanus. Maybe it'll be Desna herself. Now there's a wrinkle for the Prismatic Ray.

A lot of gods could make sense, but the ones I think I'm comfortable saying are safe? In order, from "least safe" to "most safe", Erastil, Gozreh, Sarenrae, Abadar, Lamashtu, Calistria.

Maybe leaning so hard on Lamashtu and Calistria, two other Chaotic gods, is a dangerous bet. But alignment is going away, and on a dumb and purely meta I genuinely don't think Paizo would ever get rid of Calistria, the goddess of sex, in favor of Arazni, the patron of the abused. That just feels like a weird dichotomy, intended or no. It could work, but I don't think it'd be the right move. Lamashtu, meanwhile, just feels like too fantastic a villain to throw away.

EDIT: Sarenrae, Erastil, Gozreh, Gorum, Abadar, Lamashtu, Calistria. Calliope's right, Sarenrae's definitely more likely to die than Gozreh.


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Kobold Catgirl wrote:
magnuskn wrote:
Stormlord506 wrote:
Just gonna throw my two cents out there, I think it's gonna be Iomedae. No reason to have two heralds of Aroden in the core 20.
Actually that should engender some rivalry between the two, which would be good narrative fuel.

Imagine the drama, though, of Iomedae dying in Arazni's arms and passing on her portfolio to her. Arazni is now forced into the role of the Successor, but Iomedae wants her to do what she couldn't, say what she wouldn't. The new Successor's active dislike for Aroden would reflect our own maturing understanding of the God of Humanity and perhaps give Iomedae a final bit of closure to her arc. She never wanted to be the Successor, and her loyalty to Aroden prevented her from realizing she was better at her job than he ever was.

In general, if it's not someone like Torag (and Torag dying alongside the orc gods while fighting against a mutual threat would be a great way to send him off), my strongest theory is that whoever dies, Arazni will be given/take a piece of their portfolio, as Desna did with Curchanus. Maybe it'll be Desna herself. Now there's a wrinkle for the Prismatic Ray.

A lot of gods could make sense, but the ones I think I'm comfortable saying are safe? In order, from "least safe" to "most safe", Abadar, Erastil, Gozreh, Lamashtu, Calistria.

I don't think Arazni would let Iomedae into her arms. She seems pretty "don't touch me".

In general I'd argue that the vanilla/generic "he's the x god" deities are safer, because their deaths would be dull.

Gorum is "the war god". That's pretty much it. Irori is "the monk god". He sort of has a backstory, but I don't think most people know it by heart and he mostly exists to be a patron of monks.

Whereas deities like Sarenrae have complex relationships with other deities, well known mythology (the imprisonment of Rovagug, her background with the pit of Gormuz, her disputes with Asmodeus) and are generally more impactful to kill.

The response you don't want to "one of the core 20 gods died!" is a collective yawn.


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keftiu wrote:
If we get death-prophecies for all 20 core deities, that's glorious - and fodder for at least 20 home campaigns!

Yes, what a great idea. Not just building the suspense, but a great 'side gift' to home campaigns that want to use War of Immortals with their own choice of casualty. Or casualties.

Though I admit, Yivali's treatise is maybe a bit too Victorian for me to want to read 19 more of them. So just on a personal note I will hope different NPCs cover different death-prophesies, in their own style. Bonus kudos to Paizo if one of them is a goblin, writing in rhyme. ;)


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Arazni and Iomedae are ultimately both kind of victims of Aroden, so I think it would be an impactful moment where anything could happen. Arazni is clearly going through some changes when she moves to Core, and starting to move past her trauma and let some people in (in a very guarded, careful way) could be among those changes!

Anyways, I agree that it's likely to be an impactful god! Gorum probably does go on the list, I just forgot him. I left Irori off the list because I think he could make a lot of sense for setting off the War of Immortals with his death. As the god of self-improvement who willed himself into being a god, him shattering himself to spread shards of immortality across the world to anyone who wishes to pursue perfection? That tracks. Yes, he's a little boring, but that might be all the more reason to write him off in a way that makes him retroactively interesting. He's not high on my list of maybe-deads, but he's on there.

Sarenrae, though? I absolutely agree her death would be powerful. I also kind of agree with a previous poster that I'm not sure Paizo would kill off the goddess linked to their iconic cleric. I'm not wedded to that, but I think I can bet on it with at least some comfort. I think other gods are more likely. She's probably more likely than Erastil and Gozreh, though.


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anyways what's important here is I think Arazni should get to hold hands with a goddess and possibly multiple


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Easl wrote:
keftiu wrote:
If we get death-prophecies for all 20 core deities, that's glorious - and fodder for at least 20 home campaigns!

Yes, what a great idea. Not just building the suspense, but a great 'side gift' to home campaigns that want to use War of Immortals with their own choice of casualty. Or casualties.

Though I admit, Yivali's treatise is maybe a bit too Victorian for me to want to read 19 more of them. So just on a personal note I will hope different NPCs cover different death-prophesies, in their own style. Bonus kudos to Paizo if one of them is a goblin, writing in rhyme. ;)

Being that Yivali is a psychopomp, which makes sense for a prophecy regarding pharasma. I'm guessing most these could theoretically be written from the perspective of adherents of each of the gods spoken of - but it does sound like Yivali is coded to be the teller of the prophecies from this, but as Sen HHS has noted earlier in the thread, it sounds like these may have been distributed out to a number of authors, so it might feel weird to maintain the same narrator anyways.


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Kobold Catgirl wrote:

...

Sarenrae, though? I absolutely agree her death would be powerful. I also kind of agree with a previous poster that I'm not sure Paizo would kill off the goddess linked to their iconic cleric. I'm not wedded to that, but I think I can bet on it with at least some comfort. I think other gods are more likely. She's probably more likely than Erastil and Gozreh, though.

I'm somewhat against any of the Prismatic Ray being chosen because of the "Bury your Gays" trope, but Desna and Sarenrae have such incredibly far reaching consequences on the setting itself disregarding their narrative impact I can't imagine that either is chosen to die.


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I kind of worry that "Bury Your Gays" has become a little overused as a trope term. I don't think it applies if the death is narratively appropriate and the gay couples aren't being treated like they're expendable. The Prismatic Ray is the most prominent deific love story in the setting--even if they all died (which they won't, of course), that wouldn't be gay relationships being cast aside in favor of straight relationships, that would literally be love itself being destroyed, which is the very opposite of devaluing gay people. I literally can't think of a straight couple among the gods that could "take their place" the way it happens in movies.

Anyways, it's not Bury Your Gays if Arazni takes Desna's place. ;)

You're right, though, that Desna might be too pivotal to the setting. I'm not sure I agree, but she's definitely up there in terms of "thematic keystones". Like, she's the centerpiece of the first scene of the first installment of the first AP Paizo ever made.


Ravien999 wrote:
Being that Yivali is a psychopomp, which makes sense for a prophecy regarding pharasma... but as Sen HHS has noted earlier in the thread, it sounds like these may have been distributed out to a number of authors, so it might feel weird to maintain the same narrator anyways.

We will see! Either way, I am stoked for the content. Just a personal preference.


Kobold Catgirl wrote:

I kind of worry that "Bury Your Gays" has become a little overused as a trope term. I don't think it applies if the death is narratively appropriate and the gay couples aren't being treated like they're expendable. The Prismatic Ray is the most prominent deific love story in the setting--even if they all died (which they won't, of course), that wouldn't be gay relationships being cast aside in favor of straight relationships, that would literally be love itself being destroyed, which is the very opposite of devaluing gay people. I literally can't think of a straight couple among the gods that could "take their place" the way it happens in movies.

Anyways, it's not Bury Your Gays if Arazni takes Desna's place. ;)

You're right, though, that Desna might be too pivotal to the setting. I'm not sure I agree, but she's definitely up there in terms of "thematic keystones". Like, she's the centerpiece of the first scene of the first installment of the first AP Paizo ever made.

Given her background (plus the lack of love interests even before her untimely demise), I'm not sure Arazni really wants that at the moment. Just my two cents, though. We shall see!


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They did say Arazni will not take on the portfolio or aspects of the dead god - she will be her own thing, and Arazni's presence isn't really a clue to who dies.


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Iomedae dying in a way that forces Arazni to step up - potentially in a fatal version of whatever cost her Starfinder self to lose an arm - is a story I'd really enjoy, but it's not one I expect here.

Paizo Employee Rule and Lore Creative Director

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Ravien999 wrote:
Mark Moreland wrote:
Project: J-ko wrote:

Oh my God...all 20 of 'em. So week by week is how we're gonna find o-WAIT NO!!

There's only 10 weeks until April 16th. They're only gonna clear half the names by the time that stream goes live, if I'm doing my math right (which is questionable).

Correct. There's enough teasing in this thread and campaign in general that I do feel a certain level of transparency and expectation management is warranted. This is a 10-part series, during which we will reveal 10 of the core twenty "safe" from the pending demise set to fall upon one of their number. This means that when we do our big stream on April 16—in which we'll reveal not only who dies, but a bunch of info on tie-in products and more—there will be 10 potential victims. We didn't want to narrow it down too much and ruin the fun of speculation!

And now back to being a cagey instigator!

From a lore perspective these are very interesting. Obviously, the prophecies themselves are meant to be false but are the outcomes of said prophecies, such as how the souls are heralded in Pharasma's absence, intended to be taken as canon statements of what would happen in the aftermath, or is it just one potential version of what would happen if Pharasma was dead as well?

I know a lot of people theorized she was safe because of potential ramifications, but it'd be cool to understand if this is actually the order of things that Pharasma creates or not.

These are meant to be just a possible outcome, but also one that comes with enough ramifications and story potential that we would use the idea to kick off the War of Immortals. I'd like to imagine there are various parallel timelines where we chose a different god to die and their death plays out like in the Godsrain Prophecy blog. So, in a way, these are canon to parallel timeline versions of Pathfinder.

Grand Lodge

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I appreciate the paradox of prophecies coming true in the age of broken prophecy.


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Luis Loza wrote:
These are meant to be just a possible outcome, but also one that comes with enough ramifications and story potential that we would use the idea to kick off the War of Immortals. I'd like to imagine there are various parallel timelines where we chose a different god to die and their death plays out like in the Godsrain Prophecy blog. So, in a way, these are canon to parallel timeline versions of Pathfinder.

Ah! Another clue!

The deity of the 20 that bites it kicks off the War of Immortals. Their death is the inciting event. It's not just that they die in the fighting.

Fascinating.

Presumably the other deities that die fall as a result of the conflict.

Grand Lodge

I guess we gotta buy the books to find out!

Liberty's Edge

I guess Zon-Kuthon dying might change the Prismatic Ray.

Since I lost my bet on Pharasma (and I still can't believe it), my next bet is on ZK.


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Kobold Catgirl wrote:
anyways what's important here is I think Arazni should get to hold hands with a goddess and possibly multiple

I've long maintained that Kazutal would hear Arazni's story, take one look at the Inner Sea's unending turmoil, and so try very hard to set her up with a nice Arcadian deity.


Ravien999 wrote:
Pronate11 wrote:
Bluemagetim wrote:
Nolinquisitor wrote:
It's Abadar.
Is someone going to axe Abadar to get all the goodies in the first vault?
I mean, from a meta perspective, Abadar has a great mix of "his death with greatly impact the setting without destroying it" (cities and commerce will likely exist, but will be weakened, which is the start of a ton of great AP ideas) and "Surprising" (almost no one is claiming Abadar). Plus, I feel like he is popular enough for his death to matter, but not so popular that it would invalidate a ton of clerics and champions. I also really want to see what kind of capitalism powers his god goo can give exemplars.

The big problem of axing Abadar in my mind is that Abadar permits for the "rule" of capitalism. Removing Abadar over that means that someone else has to get it, and unless it becomes a good god that is actually all about charity and f%%#ing over evil (which isn't really a fun storyline) it just becomes a story of unabashed capitalism paralleling the real world.

Abadar keeps stories about laws, contracts, and money interesting in the fantasy setting.

Because we definitely need more...any of... those...

Dark Archive

Ravien999 wrote:
LoreMonger13 wrote:
Michael Sayre wrote:
UnArcaneElection wrote:


Well, that confirms that just one dies, and that it is of the Core 20,

It is for sure more than one deity that dies during the course of War of Immortals, but only one of the core 20.

*Jaunty clockwork jazz music stops*

*Starts sweating in Brigh fanboy* Well that's just MEAN to drop on our heads! D'=

(Yeh, I know Brigh is part of Triune in Starfinder, but yadda yadda different systems different lore ETC ETC)

To be fair... Brigh dying could be part of how Casandalee fuses with another diety.

Perhaps, but the staff have stressed that Starfinder lore is NOT an indication of what's to come. Further, if it were, Brigh (along with Epoch and Casandaleee) is part of the active collective consciousness of Triune, so in such a case wouldn't be "dead" even if her vessel were destroyed.

BUT, I'm hoping they keep the two as intact individuals for Pathfinder xP


If Desna falls, I will declare a holy war. No dallying, I will go straight-up Mendev on anyone at all.


CreepyShutIn wrote:
If Desna falls, I will declare a holy war. No dallying, I will go straight-up Mendev on anyone at all.

Spoken like a true believer…


Fantastic post, and I look forward to the next 9 revelations! This is a great boon for home games as people can take it or not, allowing the development of this (or ten other possibilities) to drive the story and character arcs.

However, I'm curious as to what this means for Pathfinder Society (PFS) characters. I'm very excited about the remaster cleric and am planning a new PFS PC to revisit my favorite class. Now I am hesitant to make him. Will any affected PFS characters be able to rebuild for free after this campaign-shaking event plays out in Golarion?


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LoreMonger13 wrote:


Perhaps, but the staff have stressed that Starfinder lore is NOT an indication of what's to come. Further, if it were, Brigh (along with Epoch and Casandaleee) is part of the active collective consciousness of Triune, so in such a case wouldn't be "dead" even if her vessel were destroyed.

BUT, I'm hoping they keep the two as intact individuals for Pathfinder xP

Luis has stated that a god's presence in starfinder has no bearing on whats to come.

He hasn't stated that its not relevant, or that it is a Starfinder god who is dying.

It could be a red herring.

Liberty's Edge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

These clues from Luis, unless they're red herrings, point to it being Torag:

Quote:

There have been hints setting up some kind of development with Torag.

There will be at least one orc deity dying.

There will be some gods we won't mention ever again due to their OGL connections.

Add in the reveals/developments in Sky Kings Tomb, I'm betting it will be the "Father of Dwarfkind". Also ties in well with his disappearance in Starfinder.

Dark Archive

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Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Ehh its probably not Torag because I think that's referring to Sky Kings Tomb referring to Torag character arc. Which would be weird to cut by just killing him off

Also why are we assuming that Arazni is interested in romance?


Ravien999 wrote:

Luis has stated that a god's presence in starfinder has no bearing on whats to come.

He hasn't stated that its not relevant, or that it is a Starfinder god who is dying.

It could be a red herring.

It is not a red herring.

A red herring is a piece of information that leads you to incorrect conclusions.

All Luis has said is "this thing here is not actually information".

So yes, it absolutely could go either way.

CorvusMask wrote:
Also why are we assuming that Arazni is interested in romance?

That's just trying to figure out the "changes to the Prismatic Ray" clue. "Arazni gets added to the polycule" would definitely qualify, after all. We don't know if she's interested. It's all just rampant speculation.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
CorvusMask wrote:

Ehh its probably not Torag because I think that's referring to Sky Kings Tomb referring to Torag character arc. Which would be weird to cut by just killing him off

Perhaps but Sky Kings Tomb was developed and (mostly) written before the OGL fiasco, which is one of the pieces to the WoI.


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Calliope5431 wrote:
And don't get me started on the horror show that would result from dragon hoards suddenly losing all their value in the face of runaway inflation.

+

LandSwordBear wrote:
Nolinquistor wrote:
Abadar keeps stories about laws, contracts, and money interesting in the fantasy setting.
Because we definitely need more...any of... those...

I could build that adventure.

"Dear Adventurers. In light of Abadar's recent fall, Her Most Glorious Majesty Alcatryxx, Eater of Armies, permits you the honor of securing her portfolio against devaluation. You must quest for the scroll of codicils, hidden deep in the vault of Dewey, Cheatham, and Howe, guarded by sorcerous lawyers and bankers most foul. Refuse, and instead you must serve her dinner. I'm sorry, that should read as her dinner. P.S.: travel expenses not reimbursed."


Pathfinder Adventure, LO Special Edition, Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, PF Special Edition Subscriber; Starfinder Superscriber
Sanityfaerie wrote:
Ravien999 wrote:

...

It could be a red herring.

It is not a red herring.

A red herring is a piece of information that leads you to incorrect conclusions.

All Luis has said is "this thing here is not actually information".

So yes, it absolutely could go either way.

Ahhh, I slightly misunderstood the definition of a red herring. So "the Prismatic Ray is changing" is potentially a red herring, as you could easily presume that means one of the three is dying, but the Starfinder comment is just "this is not information"


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Ravien999 wrote:
Ahhh, I slightly misunderstood the definition of a red herring. So "the Prismatic Ray is changing" is potentially a red herring, as you could easily presume that means one of the three is dying, but the Starfinder comment is just "this is not information"

Exactly.


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Anorak wrote:
CorvusMask wrote:

Ehh its probably not Torag because I think that's referring to Sky Kings Tomb referring to Torag character arc. Which would be weird to cut by just killing him off

Perhaps but Sky Kings Tomb was developed and (mostly) written before the OGL fiasco, which is one of the pieces to the WoI.

They have said several times that this plotline was created before the OGL shenanigans. Sky King's Tomb is all about a need for Torag's clergy to do some soul-searching - what's the point of that if Paizo's just gonna kill him a year later?


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I think Torag's a solid bet. It makes sense for Torag's clergy to be doing soul-searching specifically as a part of the story of Torag's death and the aftermath. Imagine if Torag goes down fighting alongside orc gods against a new threat, like Rovagug rattling the cage. That requires buildup and a solid character arc.

Alternatively, imagine if ZK's death leads to the Star Towers being damaged somehow, leading the dwarven and orcish peoples to alliance against some terrible new threat associated with Rovagug.

I like both these theories a lot. I think Iomedae is neck-and-neck with Zon-Kuthon and Torag for "most likely". I was already hesitating a lot on Urgathoa due to her sheer uniqueness (she's the first undead and a great villain! You can't kill off the Original Ghoul!), and now that Paizo staff seem to be gently urging us away from treating Arazni like a direct 'replacement'? Yeah, I think those three.

EDIT: I also saw a great theory about Rovagug's death totally disintegrating the gods' nonaggression pact. Devil's advocate for that: Rovagug's death doesn't have to make the world "safer" if it wakes up his spawn, gets the gods squabbling with each other again, and leaves a god's foul rotting corpse at the center of the earth. There's, like, no way it's happening, but it is a cool theory.

CorvusMask wrote:
Also why are we assuming that Arazni is interested in romance?

First, handholding doesn't equal romance! I deliberately toned it down from kissing. But in answer to your question, I specifically stated what I wanted to happen, not what I think will happen. I don't know Arazni's romantic proclivities. I do feel like conflating "traumatized" with "aromantic" is unnecessary here. It's not problematic, it's a perfectly fine interpretation I support, it's just not mine.

So in answer to 'why'?

Because I am complete trash for a cute sapphic romance or twenty.


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Kobold Catgirl wrote:

So in answer to 'why'?

Because I am complete trash for a cute sapphic romance or twenty.

"You know, the Core 20 turned into an all-lesbian pantheon so gradually, I didn't even notice."

Quote:
EDIT: I also saw a great theory about Rovagug's death totally disintegrating the gods' nonaggression pact. Devil's advocate for that: Rovagug's death doesn't have to make the world "safer" if it wakes up his spawn, gets the gods squabbling with each other again, and leaves a god's foul rotting corpse at the center of the earth. There's, like, no way it's happening, but it is a cool theory.

Huh. Actually? I kind of like that one. I don't think I agree on the "no way it's happening". There's a lot of good stuff you could mine out of that one.

Okay... no. I don't think it's happening, but that's more about location than anything else. From the recent playtest, we got the idea that the rain of godstuff came from at least one deity being torn apart int eh sky. Rovagug wouldn't be in the sky.

Now, we have seen some pretty serious foreshadowing on Sarenrae... but, honestly, that coudl just be Paizo taunting us.


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Nervously Self-Clarifying Tangent:
To be clear, I am very very much not trying to say that specifically Corvus is equating or conflating anyone or anything. I just mean to say that I haven't personally seen evidence of Arazni being aromantic or otherwise flat-out disinterested or interested, and while I think the interpretation is solid and compelling, and I love to see aromantic representation in stories, I don't think the backstory of her being mistreated and wanting her freedom necessarily means she has to be aromantic. So far, I feel like the evidence is entirely neutral.

Like I said, I have my own biases, and I am happy to cop to that! I like stories about the healing power of romantic love because I like romance stories period. There are other ways to heal, with or without romance and with or without love. I just like what I like.


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Sanityfaerie wrote:
Kobold Catgirl wrote:

So in answer to 'why'?

Because I am complete trash for a cute sapphic romance or twenty.

"You know, the Core 20 turned into an all-lesbian pantheon so gradually, I didn't even notice."

In the follow-up event to War of Immortals, Paizo starts dropping prophecies about which male god is going to start HRT. Everyone's so sure it's Cayden. It's actually all of them except Cayden.


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Kobold Catgirl wrote:
Nervously Self-Clarifying Tangent:

*offers headpats*

It's fine. It's really okay.

I'd offer a hug, but headpats are easier to fit over an ethernet cable.


Kobold Catgirl wrote:
In the follow-up event to War of Immortals, Paizo starts dropping prophecies about which male god is going to start HRT. Everyone's so sure it's Cayden. It's actually all of them except Cayden.

Cayden: "Look, seriously? What is wrong with you people? Listen, come with me. I know an alchemist. She sells these things by the six-pack. For beer money."

Abadar: "Cayden, I know how much you spend on beer."
Cayden: "Still."


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Kobold Catgirl wrote:
Sanityfaerie wrote:
Kobold Catgirl wrote:

So in answer to 'why'?

Because I am complete trash for a cute sapphic romance or twenty.

"You know, the Core 20 turned into an all-lesbian pantheon so gradually, I didn't even notice."
In the follow-up event to War of Immortals, Paizo starts dropping prophecies about which male god is going to start HRT. Everyone's so sure it's Cayden. It's actually all of them except Cayden.

Cayden: "Wait, you mean you all thought...? My ladies, I've been on T for years."


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Calliope5431 wrote:
Themetricsystem wrote:

Also, the loss of Abadar would almost certainly result in the loss or embezzlement of a TON, if not the majority of all banked coin and valued assets across the globe given the fact that the crumbling of the church would make the institutions fail as well as the instant and irrevocable loss of all extradimensional vaults that the church uses to protect its assets once the divine powers of his followers dries up.

{. . .}

If you're looking for something that would shake the entire setting to its core and probably spark widespread panic, revolution, and hyperinflation of the value of coinage/currency this would be just the ticket but I'm not sure that economic intrigue and the global collapse of governments and businesses is what they're shooting for.

It would certainly be...novel. But I don't really think adventurers are equipped to deal with a stock market crash or widespread financial panic. {. . .}

Eh. Don't worry. Since he's in Starfinder, he would just be spending the millenium dead for tax purposes.

Sanityfaerie wrote:
Kobold Catgirl wrote:

So in answer to 'why'?

Because I am complete trash for a cute sapphic romance or twenty.

"You know, the Core 20 turned into an all-lesbian pantheon so gradually, I didn't even notice."

Quote:
EDIT: I also saw a great theory about Rovagug's death totally disintegrating the gods' nonaggression pact. Devil's advocate for that: Rovagug's death doesn't have to make the world "safer" if it wakes up his spawn, gets the gods squabbling with each other again, and leaves a god's foul rotting corpse at the center of the earth. There's, like, no way it's happening, but it is a cool theory.

Huh. Actually? I kind of like that one. I don't think I agree on the "no way it's happening". There's a lot of good stuff you could mine out of that one.

Okay... no. I don't think it's happening, but that's more about location than anything else. From the recent playtest, we got the idea that the rain of godstuff came from at least one deity being torn apart int eh sky. Rovagug wouldn't be in the sky.

Now, we have seen some pretty serious foreshadowing on Sarenrae... but, honestly, that coudl just be Paizo taunting us.

We know that Rovagug isn't around in Starfinder AND has a replacement that is similar in attitude although physically very different. Maybe Rovagug finally starves to death in prison, and Pharasma judges Rovagug even dead to be too dangerous to put through the normal judgment process, and so throws Rovagug into the black hole at the center of the galaxy. Millennia later, the black hole awakes . . . .


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Starfinder is a separate continuity, so it's not relevant here in terms of what's happening in Pathfinder. :)

Anyways, I feel like Rovagug wouldn't starve to death. The only way I can see him dying is by devouring himself. I genuinely don't say this kind of thing often--stories have infinite possibility--but I don't see any other explanation for him dying that wouldn't feel contrived or utterly change the tone of the setting. Like, sure, maybe the combined forces of Leng and the Dark Tapestry could take him (although I think I may doubt it), but what would that actually mean for the setting to have such an invasion take place?


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UnArcaneElection wrote:

...

We know that Rovagug isn't around in Starfinder AND has a replacement that is similar in attitude although physically very different. Maybe Rovagug finally starves to death in prison, and Pharasma judges Rovagug even dead to be too dangerous to put through the normal judgment process, and so throws Rovagug into the black hole at the center of the galaxy. Millennia later, the black hole awakes . . . .

I'm amused by the thought of a black hole being eaten by Rovagug.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Im going to guess its not rovagug. A new battle with the rough beast where the gods actually can kill it would probably be one where more than one of those gods die to make it happen.

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