Introducing the Kingmaker Player’s Guide

Wow! This is AMAZING!

Simply amazing!!! Cannot wait to get my copy to start running this.

A bit disappointed in the players guide. It provides no lore info for the campaign for players. All the mechanical info for running a kingdom is nice but does nothing to help a player decide what to play. The backgrounds are fine but without attached lore info a player likely doesn't know anything about Brevoy, Rostland, Issia, Restov or any of the nobel families. The 1E players guide is strictly better as a players guide in every way when it comes to helping one decide what kind of character to play and what the recent lore is that is relevant info for a player to know.

Um, Shoony is not written here.
Mwangi Ancestries too.

Um, Shoony is not written here.

Mwangi Ancestries too.

The Stolen Lands are quite far away from both Absalom (the Shoony homeland) and the Mwangi Expanse, so that shouldn't be too surprising. It's a bit like asking where all the Androids are in Serpent's Skull.

A bit disappointed in the players guide. It provides no lore info for the campaign for players. All the mechanical info for running a kingdom is nice but does nothing to help a player decide what to play. The backgrounds are fine but without attached lore info a player likely doesn't know anything about Brevoy, Rostland, Issia, Restov or any of the nobel families. The 1E players guide is strictly better as a players guide in every way when it comes to helping one decide what kind of character to play and what the recent lore is that is relevant info for a player to know.

It's not like Brevoy matters to the AP outside of the opening.

The 1E players guide is strictly better as a players guide in every way when it comes to helping one decide what kind of character to play and what the recent lore is that is relevant info for a player to know.

How fortunate that it is also available and also free if you want to wade through the irrelevant PF1 material

PF1 Kingmaker Player's Guide

Nicolas Paradise wrote:

A bit disappointed in the players guide. It provides no lore info for the campaign for players. All the mechanical info for running a kingdom is nice but does nothing to help a player decide what to play. The backgrounds are fine but without attached lore info a player likely doesn't know anything about Brevoy, Rostland, Issia, Restov or any of the nobel families. The 1E players guide is strictly better as a players guide in every way when it comes to helping one decide what kind of character to play and what the recent lore is that is relevant info for a player to know.

It's not like Brevoy matters to the AP outside of the opening.

Yeah, Brevoy is quickly left behind, and doesn't factor in much beyond that prologue chapter other than Rostland being a potential trade partner later on. You're building something new, not taking sides in Brevoy's internal politics/imminent civil war.

This player's guide is great, I needed to get these rules in my player's hands. I agree and do wish we got more of the AP1's lore, but AP1 is still there, and this is already a massive PDF if you wanted to print it out (like me).

I assume Cleric is "Not Recommended" because there are specific deities that would make it *very* awkward if a PC were a cleric thereof, and that the players should not know who these are in advance but the GM should?

These are also deities that don't have good Champions, so you might want to be careful about Evil Champions as well as Clerics. A specific kind of antipaladin is probably the single worst choice you could make for the campaign.

I assume Cleric is "Not Recommended" because there are specific deities that would make it *very* awkward if a PC were a cleric thereof, and that the players should not know who these are in advance but the GM should?

These are also deities that don't have good Champions, so you might want to be careful about Evil Champions as well as Clerics. A specific kind of antipaladin is probably the single worst choice you could make for the campaign.

Clerics of Calistria, Erastil, and Gorum are Strongly Recommended, while Clerics of Cayden Cailean, Desna, Gozreh, and Shelyn are Recommended. It's other Clerics in the Not Recommended slot, likely because of how many other deities there are that might not fit.

The Stolen Lands are quite far away from both Absalom (the Shoony homeland) and the Mwangi Expanse, so that shouldn't be too surprising. It's a bit like asking where all the Androids are in Serpent's Skull.

I forgot Azerketi, but your wording and map in guide shows not the right place. Putting reply from 1e guide product discussion here.

Azarketi are mentioned as being an especially poor choice considering the locations of the AP.

So I find it kind of concerning that the Kingdom Building rules are supposed to be spoiler-free here, but all of the side bar NPC side quests that were in them in the AP book itself have basically been left intact.

As a GM, I don't really feel comfortable giving this to my players and telling them it's spoiler-free when it's got 12 quest descriptions/triggers that basically say "when you do X a quest will trigger" and the trigger on the 13th that literally says the NPC's quest "is linked to an in-game event—you don’t need to do anything to trigger the start of [their] quest" so when/if that NPC shows up it'll immediately red flag the players that something is happening.

So I find it kind of concerning that the Kingdom Building rules are supposed to be spoiler-free here, but all of the side bar NPC side quests that were in them in the AP book itself have basically been left intact.

As a GM, I don't really feel comfortable giving this to my players and telling them it's spoiler-free when it's got 12 quest descriptions/triggers that basically say "when you do X a quest will trigger" and the trigger on the 13th that literally says the NPC's quest "is linked to an in-game event—you don’t need to do anything to trigger the start of [their] quest" so when/if that NPC shows up it'll immediately red flag the players that something is happening.

I personally rewrote all the NPC sidebars in the player guide to be spoiler free. All of the details on their quests only appear in the hardcover, for the GM. The information in the player's guide has been re-written to simply introduce those NPCs and to hint at how you can draw them to your kingdom and what sort of aid they might need. It's intended to help give the players signposts toward where to develop their kingdom, so that they can look forward to triggering future opportunities.

This is a well-put-together Player's Guide. My solitary regret is that it shows a full map of the Stolen Lands, which is something I dearly would have loved to just find in 1e in an easily accessible location, but this time around I'm considering allowing my players the immersion of making their own maps based on descriptions... we'll see if that idea flies anyway, but in the meantime this guide tickles.

Isn't it a bit weird that the Player's Guide contains the complete map of the Stolen Lands? Aren't the PCs are supposed to meticulously explore and map them during the adventure?

Very nice to see new backgrounds like in 1e's guide, as well as guidelines towards ancestries and classes. Its a shame there's no lore in it - I felt comfortable giving 1e's guide to my players knowing they'll have a pretty good knowledge of the setting, where it happens and where it will go from there, the parties involved, and why their characters are there in the first place. Although a lot of it is explained during the feast in Restov by NPC's I feel like there still should've been at least a little bit of lore in the guide.
Also a bit disappointed in quests still being in the book. The characters don't know a man will show up once they'll build a brewery, and even if you could argue that players deserve to know it, why give them the quest's hook too, as well as the guy's art?
I feel like reading "NPC name, hook description, quest trigger" is very un-immersive and takes away some roleplay opportunities. Why describe the man who approaches the PCs and tells them his woes if they've already seen him, read everything he's got to say on the sidebar and have been waiting for him to show up the moment the required trigger has been reached? Some even have the reward listed. Maybe it would've been nicer to just leave a hint that "this building might attract a certain type of individual" or something.
But in the end we can always censor the parts we don't like, and I guess copy the lore from 1e's guide. Everything else is very handy, and its nice to not have to explain everything to the players or ask them to avoid certain pages or sidebars.

Think Lores are now some sort of spoiler...

Isn't it a bit weird that the Player's Guide contains the complete map of the Stolen Lands? Aren't the PCs are supposed to meticulously explore and map them during the adventure?

Maps reflecting the geography of the region probably already exist before the party sets off. We know where the rivers and mountains are, for example. The maps in the Player's Guide lack any labels or points of interest, and the party's job in this AP is less "figure out where the mountains are" and more "figure out what's in those mountains."

Isn't it a bit weird that the Player's Guide contains the complete map of the Stolen Lands? Aren't the PCs are supposed to meticulously explore and map them during the adventure?

It's pretty obvious where forests and mountains are, go to any even moderately raised part of a country that's not inhabited (for example the Appalachians in the US) and you can see for scores of miles but you don't know what's in any of all that forest and mountain. That's what the map represents, large scale, vague mapping that isn't that tough to do, the players need to explore things on a much more personal scale.

I did notice that the Sword Scion background says;

You gain access

to Aldori dueling swords and can purchase one as part of
your starting equipment.

But those cost 20 gold and starting characters get 15 gold... is this supposed to provide a free Aldori dueling sword, it seems a bit confusing?

I did notice that the Sword Scion background says;

Quote:

You gain access

to Aldori dueling swords and can purchase one as part of
your starting equipment.

But those cost 20 gold and starting characters get 15 gold... is this supposed to provide a free Aldori dueling sword, it seems a bit confusing?

I believe the Aldori Dueling Sword was updated in errata to only cost 2gp in the World Guide. Looks like this player's guide maybe pulled the old incorrect price.

Zaister wrote:

Isn't it a bit weird that the Player's Guide contains the complete map of the Stolen Lands? Aren't the PCs are supposed to meticulously explore and map them during the adventure?

Maps reflecting the geography of the region probably already exist before the party sets off. We know where the rivers and mountains are, for example. The maps in the Player's Guide lack any labels or points of interest, and the party's job in this AP is less "figure out where the mountains are" and more "figure out what's in those mountains."

They'd have to be super recent. Part of the schtick about the River Kingdoms is that the rivers are constantly shifting, even within just one or two generations. That's why there are so many wetlands and why hills are so valued, and why the area is so fertile. From Guide to the River Kingdoms (in the section about geography, swamps and waterways in particular): "This constant change means that maps drawn a decade ago may contain significant errors regarding wilderness areas and those from a century before may be all but unrecognizable except for the names of the settlements." [p4] These play into the major meta-plot of the AP (the whole fae part).

It seems that the basic armies by level table, which should be on page 63, is missing from the players guide.

It seems that the basic armies by level table, which should be on page 63, is missing from the players guide.

I thought the same thing, and looked for it several times. I finally found it on page 69. I'm betting it got moved, and the editors didn't catch the error.

S. J. Digriz wrote:

It seems that the basic armies by level table, which should be on page 63, is missing from the players guide.

I thought the same thing, and looked for it several times. I finally found it on page 69. I'm betting it got moved, and the editors didn't catch the error.

All tables, images, and sidebars in the Player's Guide are in basically the exact same place in the AP book itself. Page 63 has the Army Activities table, so somebody probably just mixed up the page numbers for the table when changing the page reference (as the AP references the correct page).

The map of the Stolen Lands doesn't quite line up when I try to stitch the four images together in Clip Studio Paint. That's going to drive me insane.

Anyone put together a full Stolen Lands map in one image?

PossibleCabbage wrote:

Zaister wrote:

Isn't it a bit weird that the Player's Guide contains the complete map of the Stolen Lands? Aren't the PCs are supposed to meticulously explore and map them during the adventure?

Maps reflecting the geography of the region probably already exist before the party sets off. We know where the rivers and mountains are, for example. The maps in the Player's Guide lack any labels or points of interest, and the party's job in this AP is less "figure out where the mountains are" and more "figure out what's in those mountains."

They'd have to be super recent. Part of the schtick about the River Kingdoms is that the rivers are constantly shifting, even within just one or two generations. That's why there are so many wetlands and why hills are so valued, and why the area is so fertile. From Guide to the River Kingdoms (in the section about geography, swamps and waterways in particular): "This constant change means that maps drawn a decade ago may contain significant errors regarding wilderness areas and those from a century before may be all but unrecognizable except for the names of the settlements." [p4] These play into the major meta-plot of the AP (the whole fae part).

Based upon the above, in the unlikely event I get to GM this, I would have the PC getting handed this map along with the preliminary reconnaissance charter(*), and the admonition "I'll tell you in advance, this map is likely to have a lot of things wrong or missing on it -- the rivers keep shifting, even over the course of just a few decades, and the denizens there keep changing too, so just use this map as a general guide, and not a guarantee."

(*)Well before the kingdom establishment charter, and not to be confused with the Exploration kingdom establishment charter -- by the time they get a kingdom establishment charter, the associated admonition will have already become clear, the hard way. Of course, this distinction presumes that the overall event flow of the AP has not drastically changed since the 1st Edition version.

Some other notes:

This thing is enormous. Some of the comments above made me think it was missing some stuff relative to the 1st Edition version, and that may be (so it's worth looking back at the 1st Edition version), but it has got a LOT of stuff in it, being a good fraction of the length of a whole Pathfinder Companion or the like.

Strange that Abadar, Iomedae, Sarenrae, and some other major deities aren't listed at all in the table of appropriate deities. In particular, Abadar (championing the advance of civilization) would seem to be particularly appropriate.

It's weird that in this guide, "Insider Trading" is a feat that is actually beneficial to your kingdom as a whole rather than a criminal act (and this guide even covers some criminal acts that produce some benefits in return for a risk, but this isn't one of them).

Including previews of some NPCs is sort of spoilery, but presumably the AP is going to have plenty of other encounters that the PCs have no idea are coming. In the unlikely event that I get to GM this, I would just treat the ones in the guide as people that the PCs end up hearing about some way or another well before the triggered event. For some of these, maybe even add some crotchety would-be prophet saying "See? I told you so?".

Trained Engineering Activity: Irrigation: "Success As success, but without regaining any RP" -- I think that first part was supposed to be "As critical success".

The map of the Stolen Lands doesn't quite line up when I try to stitch the four images together in Clip Studio Paint. That's going to drive me insane.

Anyone put together a full Stolen Lands map in one image?

PM me your email address.

Strange that Abadar, Iomedae, Sarenrae, and some other major deities aren't listed at all in the table of appropriate deities. In particular, Abadar (championing the advance of civilization) would seem to be particularly appropriate.

It's less "do these fit the AP's themes" and more "will these deities explicitly come up in the text of the AP." We saw something similar when Outlaws of Alkenstar didn't recommend Medicine - obviously it's worth having, but it wasn't relevant to the adventures themselves. Erastil is all over Kingmaker; Abadar fits just fine, but you aren't going to find any neat Abadaran content.

In fact, in both the AP and Companion books the word "Abadar" occurs for a grand total of 0 times.

Yeah, the "recommended deities/skills" thing is about what the authors put in the AP. They're signposting "there will be stuff to do involving Erastil and the Society skill." Obviously if you pick a different deity, a GM *can* work them into the story but the authors of the AP didn't. Obviously a GM could work in a plot involving 8 different Empyreal Lords, but there's no way that Paizo anticipated which combination your group liked.

Like the Owlcat game has a plotline involving a Cleric of Groetus of all things, so with work you can make almost anything work. It's just that some things involve a conversation with your GM.

To me, an Abadar Cleric/Champion wouldn't feel right in the early chapters; however if a character retires/dies, swapping in an Abadar Cleric around chapter 7 would feel very natural. This is when diplomacy/city building has the potential to take off; before that its so much wilderness exploration that an Abadaran cleric would likely feel out of place. If you're running a very "slow burn" campaign, as the campaign intends, a long-view cleric of Abadar might make sense -- especially from a long-lived ancestry -- someone who is taking a 20 year view of building civilization, probably works very well. But if you're running a more "traditional" on-the-rails Kingmaker with kingdom in the background, the time scales probably won't feel right/believable.

The other aspect is that CN nature of the river kingdoms; the River Freedoms are all about individuality and freedom, etc. Many of the more "greater good" flavored deities teachings will clash. Unless you want a theme of proselytizing/converting the population, you'll want to stick to the recommended/strongly recommended, at least if your cleric is kinda eyeing the High Priest type role. While basically anything _can_ work in Kingmaker, its even more important to have session 0 to figure out what type of spin/focus you want to put on things -- how many different "pet projects" from the PCs do you want to support.

The "default" feels to me like a fairly loose "communal" kingdom a lot of "live and let live" communities that band together because its dangerous out there and the PCs have been helpful, but if the PCs ask for too much change, the communities are happy to go it solo again. Most of the populations were escaping/fleeing/choosing a less "city" based lifestyle in the first place.

A "Grand Society" kingdom in the middle of the river kingdoms, that has an Abadar influence, along with say Nethys libraries/teaching centers, and grand Sheyln temples and conservatories can work. But its playing against the local "type" and the PCs would need to be doing more diplomacy than usual to convince the populance to go along with all this 'fancy" stuff. The GM would probably need to add in some diplomacy and cultural side quests. That style game might also want to tweak the kingdom building rules -- it might be more about a "perfect" city-state than small, scattered settlements throughout.

-snip-

A "Grand Society" kingdom in the middle of the river kingdoms, that has an Abadar influence, along with say Nethys libraries/teaching centers, and grand Sheyln temples and conservatories can work. But its playing against the local "type" and the PCs would need to be doing more diplomacy than usual to convince the populance to go along with all this 'fancy" stuff. The GM would probably need to add in some diplomacy and cultural side quests. That style game might also want to tweak the kingdom building rules -- it might be more about a "perfect" city-state than small, scattered settlements throughout.

I'm not sure I agree with all this. Pitax has already shown you can be a River Kingdom with culture and refinement; the unrest there is because Irovetti is a jerk, not because the folks there are furious about poetry and paved roads. Many people live humble lives in the region because their isn't much alternative - not to deny that some genuinely welcome rural living, but plenty of locals are exiles, outcasts, and otherwise here out of a lack of alternatives. Many would probably welcome safe wells and clean water.

Abadar isn't that bad of a fit, honestly.

Edicts: bring civilization to the frontiers, earn wealth through hard work and trade, follow the rule of law

Anathema: engage in banditry or piracy, steal, undermine a law-abiding court

Kingmaker is arguably nothing but bringing civilization to the frontiers and earning wealth through hard work and trade; building up a nation and protecting it, securing profitable alliances and resources, and so on. His anathema offers a ready reason to go trounce bandits. He would want you to follow the laws of the River Kingdoms - Abadar is plenty content to ban slavery or not block the Sellen.

All this to say: a proactive, pragmatic Abadaran would absolutely fit Kingmaker, and have plenty of opportunities to be the golden ideal of what that god wants. Just don't expect to stumble across any of his temples, relics, or followers in the text.

Abadar definitely fits. In the Owlcat crpg there is actually an early offer from an npc Cleric of Abadar who wants to loan you a ton of resources in exchange for making Abadar the patron deity of your Barony.

Good to have some free Kingmaker playin' plus build-ruling plus mass combatry stuff out there for PF2e [can also be applied to PF1e or D&D5e too]- all courtesy from them Madfolks from Paizo [past, present, probably future too]. ;)

They'd have to be super recent. [...] "This constant change means that maps drawn a decade ago may contain significant errors regarding wilderness areas and those from a century before may be all but unrecognizable except for the names of the settlements."

Not that recent... as your own quote outlines. Beyond that, mountains don't (typically) move much, forests move over the course of decades and centuries (even accounting for increased growth). Rivers can certainly change course quickly, though typically only smaller ones, the larger the river then the slower any change to its path in most cases.

All this means that yes, a map made a decade or two ago (given Restovs interest in retaking the Stolen Lands this is eminently reasonable), even three or four, would be fine for showing relatively accurate locations for large forests, mountains, main rivers, lakes, etc. Just like the players guide map does, it wouldn't show small scale more local geography, which... it doesn't.

All this reminds me! Whilst it is for 1e and having not seen the 2e version yet it may not be needed, DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote an absolutely amazing addition for Rivers Run Red. In my opinion it's a brilliant compliment to the AP volume and really brings to the front and highlights some things the original lacked to a degree (though I believe much of that has been fixed for this edition). I'd strongly urge anyone interested to check out the entirety of his thread with all the encounters and info it (do read it all!), on a similar note the entire Kingmaker AP forum is full of fantastic ideas that could easily be ported across to 2e with minimal efforts, it's definitely worth a read!

DM_aka_Dudemeisters RRR additions can be found here.

Not that recent... as your own quote outlines. Beyond that, mountains don't (typically) move much, forests move over the course of decades and centuries (even accounting for increased growth). ...

Even forests would move in the time period. Let's not forget this is a fantasy setting, and that this particular region has strong ties and influence to the First World. Also, my snippet was from a part that also discussed how plants in the area can change easily. So, yes, even forests would move at that rapid pace.

I really like this!

UnArcaneElection wrote:

Strange that Abadar, Iomedae, Sarenrae, and some other major deities aren't listed at all in the table of appropriate deities. In particular, Abadar (championing the advance of civilization) would seem to be particularly appropriate.

It's less "do these fit the AP's themes" and more "will these deities explicitly come up in the text of the AP." We saw something similar when Outlaws of Alkenstar didn't recommend Medicine - obviously it's worth having, but it wasn't relevant to the adventures themselves. Erastil is all over Kingmaker; Abadar fits just fine, but you aren't going to find any neat Abadaran content.

Feels weird though, because near as I can tell a cleric of Gozreh will inevitably "bring civilization to intrude on the wild," stepping in their anathema. I'm going to be a player, so I haven't read the adventure to confirm... But that feels like a landmine.

It's packed, and the npcs and really nice border art stand out.