Paizo Subscriptions Update

TriOmegaZero wrote:

But we weren’t talking about VTTs or even just the TTRPG market. We were talking about the European Paizo customer market.

I’d love for them to grow it to the point they can afford a Europe-based warehouse. I don’t think they are there yet.

If they keep on thinking of the US as their true market and anything else to be coincidental benefits, they will never get there.

Word of mouth is the best form of advertising

TriOmegaZero wrote:

But we weren’t talking about VTTs or even just the TTRPG market. We were talking about the European Paizo customer market.

I’d love for them to grow it to the point they can afford a Europe-based warehouse. I don’t think they are there yet.

If they keep on thinking of the US as their true market and anything else to be coincidental benefits, they will never get there.

It's not about what they think, it's about reality. The reality is that Pathfinder is a D&D offshoot, and D&D has never been as popular in Europe as in the US. In each European country, D&D is a second or third fiddle to other fantasy RPGs - in Germany, DSA, in Poland, Warhammer Fantasy RPG, etc. I could write a small book on how that came to be, but a large factor here is that European RPG fans are statistically younger and less entrenched in nostalgia after 1970s and D&D sessions in Will's basement.

This is now slowly changing, thanks to ... the 5e, so reviled by many xcore Paizo fans :D A rising tide lifts all boats, and as 5e got D&D into places it wasn't before, so comes Pathfinder, riding on the new wave of popularity brought about by Critical Role, streamers and cosplayers. You know D&D is back when your local cosplay competition has people cosplaying as Critical Role characters winning one of top 3.

To make matters worse for European Paizo customers who sub from Paizo, the biggest markets in Europe - Germany, France, Italy, Spain - all have their localised editions of PF/SF, meaning that most of the people in those markets are served by those versions. Yes, some people swear by English original instead of translation or live in Netherlands or Poland, but that is a niche of a niche.

Just found out Games Workshop in UK is now selling D&D merch, presumably to draw in those filthy casuals and then try to flog them some tiny plastic elves, or whatever. Guess what they are not selling? I'll give you a clue, it rhymes with math binder.

Just found out Games Workshop in UK is now selling D&D merch, presumably to draw in those filthy casuals and then try to flog them some tiny plastic elves, or whatever. Guess what they are not selling? I'll give you a clue, it rhymes with math binder.

Pathfinder is a tiny speck compared to 5e or any Games Workshop product line, what else is new?

Also, I really hope that "filthy casuals" was an ironic display of the British sense of humour and not your actual assessment of what people play other games.

The Raven Black wrote:

TriOmegaZero wrote:

But we weren’t talking about VTTs or even just the TTRPG market. We were talking about the European Paizo customer market.

I’d love for them to grow it to the point they can afford a Europe-based warehouse. I don’t think they are there yet.

If they keep on thinking of the US as their true market and anything else to be coincidental benefits, they will never get there.

It's not about what they think, it's about reality. The reality is that Pathfinder is a D&D offshoot, and D&D has never been as popular in Europe as in the US. In each European country, D&D is a second or third fiddle to other fantasy RPGs - in Germany, DSA, in Poland, Warhammer Fantasy RPG, etc. I could write a small book on how that came to be, but a large factor here is that European RPG fans are statistically younger and less entrenched in nostalgia after 1970s and D&D sessions in Will's basement.

This is now slowly changing, thanks to ... the 5e, so reviled by many xcore Paizo fans :D A rising tide lifts all boats, and as 5e got D&D into places it wasn't before, so comes Pathfinder, riding on the new wave of popularity brought about by Critical Role, streamers and cosplayers. You know D&D is back when your local cosplay competition has people cosplaying as Critical Role characters winning one of top 3.

To make matters worse for European Paizo customers who sub from Paizo, the biggest markets in Europe - Germany, France, Italy, Spain - all have their localised editions of PF/SF, meaning that most of the people in those markets are served by those versions. Yes, some people swear by English original instead of translation or live in Netherlands or Poland, but that is a niche of a niche.

Actually, I agree with many of your statements here. Note though that I believe D&D has always been n°1 in UK and France.

Totally Not Gorbacz wrote:

The Raven Black wrote:

TriOmegaZero wrote:

But we weren’t talking about VTTs or even just the TTRPG market. We were talking about the European Paizo customer market.

I’d love for them to grow it to the point they can afford a Europe-based warehouse. I don’t think they are there yet.

If they keep on thinking of the US as their true market and anything else to be coincidental benefits, they will never get there.

It's not about what they think, it's about reality. The reality is that Pathfinder is a D&D offshoot, and D&D has never been as popular in Europe as in the US. In each European country, D&D is a second or third fiddle to other fantasy RPGs - in Germany, DSA, in Poland, Warhammer Fantasy RPG, etc. I could write a small book on how that came to be, but a large factor here is that European RPG fans are statistically younger and less entrenched in nostalgia after 1970s and D&D sessions in Will's basement.

This is now slowly changing, thanks to ... the 5e, so reviled by many xcore Paizo fans :D A rising tide lifts all boats, and as 5e got D&D into places it wasn't before, so comes Pathfinder, riding on the new wave of popularity brought about by Critical Role, streamers and cosplayers. You know D&D is back when your local cosplay competition has people cosplaying as Critical Role characters winning one of top 3.

To make matters worse for European Paizo customers who sub from Paizo, the biggest markets in Europe - Germany, France, Italy, Spain - all have their localised editions of PF/SF, meaning that most of the people in those markets are served by those versions. Yes, some people swear by English original instead of translation or live in Netherlands or Poland, but that is a niche of a niche.

Actually, I agree with many of your statements here. Note though that I believe D&D has always been n°1 in UK and France.

I think it had some very stiff competition in UK, not the least from Warhammer and Runequest.

France, I have no idea, it's a mystery land for me as far as RPGs are concerned :)

I can confirm that people from France are familiar with D&D, or at least the french exchange students that lived with us every summer played it or knew people that did.

For sure. Me too. Ironically, those people whose purchasing patterns won’t change much aren’t relevant to the decision though. Even though that cohort is likely to be most satisfied with the change.

Some pdf-only customers will buy more and that increase in sales is what matters. Some print sales will drop - that’s the two groups that are relevant.

Another point to bring up: while having a pdf option would be pure convenience for me, from Paizo’s perspective, having that additional verifiable subscription number rather than sakes number estimate makes them look better as a company and makes budgeting and capitalization easier.

Steve Geddes wrote:

For sure. Me too. Ironically, those people whose purchasing patterns won’t change much aren’t relevant to the decision though. Even though that cohort is likely to be most satisfied with the change.

Some pdf-only customers will buy more and that increase in sales is what matters. Some print sales will drop - that’s the two groups that are relevant.

Another point to bring up: while having a pdf option would be pure convenience for me, from Paizo’s perspective, having that additional verifiable subscription number rather than sakes number estimate makes them look better as a company and makes budgeting and capitalization easier.

Would that be the same if they had a pdf only subscription?

The reason they do not have PDF subscriptions....

No PDF subscription

The reason they do not have PDF subscriptions....

No PDF subscription

I wonder if they would revisit, that post is over a decade old.

What has changed since then?

The reason they do not have PDF subscriptions....

No PDF subscription

That post is about why they don't sell PDFs through retailers and why they don't do subscriptions through retailers. None of it is about why they don't do PDF-only subscriptions.

Vic Wertz has commented on this topic lots over the years (though not for a while). His posts are a useful place to look.

It’s not the best I remember, but this post gives a quick-and-dirty overview of the main issue.

If you’ve got the energy to go searching through his post history he was really generous with his time over the years explaining what the issues are in depth.

Thanks for all your feedback. Demand for a PDF subscription is loud and clear. New leadership opens up new possibilities, but Paizo has nothing to announce regarding it at this time. Please table the topic of conversation.

What has changed since then?

Life, the Universe and Everything.

Ten years ago does feel like a very different world.

Paizo radically changes their game and alienates half of their core fan base. Those die-hards who are left already have 10+ years worth of accessories, so we don’t all feel like we need more pawns of kobolds, even if they do look different now. So Paizo kills product lines we love but that don’t generate profit anymore and add new lines that generate revenue but that only the die-hardest of die-hards (the only people left) will buy — things like special edition versions of all of their hard cover lines. Again, this is a result of choosing to hard reboot the game, and turn over the bulk of their creative staff.

That's very much not the case buddy.

Also, "how dare you not continue to lose money" is not the gotcha you think it is.

AnimatedPaper wrote:

Steve Geddes wrote:

For sure. Me too. Ironically, those people whose purchasing patterns won’t change much aren’t relevant to the decision though. Even though that cohort is likely to be most satisfied with the change.

Some pdf-only customers will buy more and that increase in sales is what matters. Some print sales will drop - that’s the two groups that are relevant.

Another point to bring up: while having a pdf option would be pure convenience for me, from Paizo’s perspective, having that additional verifiable subscription number rather than sakes number estimate makes them look better as a company and makes budgeting and capitalization easier.

Would that be the same if they had a pdf only subscription?

Yes. That's exactly the point I was making in the post. Having a verifiable subscription number, as in an amount they can count on making each month on these products, makes them look better from a financial standpoint. Even if they sell the same number of PDFs to the same people each month (which wouldn't be the case), being able to point to a subscription number instead of a projection based on past sales makes them look stronger financially.

Re: a PDF-only subscription

We hear you and thank you for your input. While we have nothing to announce at this time we do have a new leadership who might explore new ideas and opportunities. It’s an exciting time for innovation and the challenges of change at Paizo.

Adventures Ahead

I recognize i'm a while late to the party, i just stumbled on this blog when i went looking for pawn sets for an upcoming campaign.

I'm not sure where else to say how extremely disappointed I am that paizo is discontinuing their Pawns line. These products are one of the primary tools that make running pathfinder 2e as a gm easier. The companion pawn set is one of the key aspects for me for running a Paizo adventure path, having pawns of unique creatures and villains found in the AP. Without the pawns the pair with bestiary, i'm honestly not sure buying the bestiary is worth the investment, without a pawn available i'm very unlikely to include monsters from a new bestiary in anything to plan myself.

Is there any more information on what is driving this decision? Are there any plans to adjust AP PDFs or sell art assets in a format conducive to printing my own pawns?

Is there any more information on what is driving this decision?

Price of paper and printing is going up, not enough people are purchasing pawnsets.

Or in other words, to have the expected ROI on pawns, Paizo would have to rise prices to the point where the customers would balk.

Quote:

Is there any more information on what is driving this decision?

Price of paper and printing is going up, not enough people are purchasing pawnsets.

Yea that seems to be the case, after having gone back and read the thread. It's a shame, pawn availability is something that sold me other products, and I guess being someone who has bought a pawn set for every AP and book available makes me a pretty serious outlier.

I also totally understand the business decision to delay announcing the cancelation of the line until the likely front end sales of the last few APS were already done. Had I known at the time there wouldn't be pawns, I know I personally would have cancelled my AP subscription ahead of Strength of Thousands. Having a pawn set available made those products "I'll get this and maybe sell some players on running it" instead of "i'll buy these hard copy or PDF individually when and if I have players that really want to play it." It's hard not to feel tricked at having bought those products on the expectation, and having that rug pulled after the fact.

I'm sorry if i sound harsh compared to where the thread is. I'm still processing this news that has been hashed in this thread for a month, but it's a painful change to how I run my bi weekly pathfinder game that i'm still grappling with.

Having subbed to pawnsets since as far back as Dawn of Flame I share your vexxation and definitely feel this is a blow to those of us who don't do VTT. I've purchased all the prior pawnsets off Amazon in order to fill those I didn't sub to because hey, never know when I might need some generic sci-fi character in some future game in another system.

It looks like the Starfinder pawns sold even worse than the Pathfinder ones, as every set is still in stock. I never needed them given my lack of Starfinder play after launch, but maybe I should pick them up just in case.

It looks like the Starfinder pawns sold even worse than the Pathfinder ones, as every set is still in stock. I never needed them given my lack of Starfinder play after launch, but maybe I should pick them up just in case.

I always found that odd since fantasy minis are so readily available but science-fantasy figures are much rarer (at the correct scale, anyhow).

I've always seen a sharp difference in interest for sci-fi games versus fantasy games. I'm guilty of it myself, but hopefully Starfinder has helped change that a little. Thinking about it, I should get on running more SFS.

I always found that odd since fantasy minis are so readily available but science-fantasy figures are much rarer (at the correct scale, anyhow).

Most people lack that kind of vision to say "Oh hey, this flipmat/pawn isn't just useful in (game system), but could be applied to all sorts of things!"

Re: a PDF-only subscription

We hear you and thank you for your input. While we have nothing to announce at this time we do have a new leadership who might explore new ideas and opportunities. It’s an exciting time for innovation and the challenges of change at Paizo.

Adventures Ahead

Two final comments I'd like to make on this topic.

Ideally, these PDFs lines would not only encompass the current subscription lines, but also have separate subscriptions to Bounties and One Shots. I'm not sure how feasible a One-shot sub would be, but the bounties certainly now seem regular and reliable enough to justify a new subscription.

I would also not be upset if the pdf subs did not qualify one for the free society adventures, though of course I would dearly love if they did. Moreover, I would view positively if my legacy advantage carried over if I switch my AP sub to a PDF AP sub, but again I would understand if that was not the case.

Either way, for me, the positives of gaining a PDF sub would far outweigh the negatives of losing various incentives you offer, but if they DID count, I would be incentivized to buy more, possibly including lines I've *never* subscribed to.

I won't claim to know (or even have a good guess) how true that would be for most people, but I thought I'd offer my thoughts as a data point.

Due to the cost of international shipping, I would had of loved to see the ability to subscribe to just the PDFs.

me too. As an Australian, I feel I'm making the Shipping Company rich instead of Paizo.

I would certainly buy pdf versions (and have) of the Pawns as a great accessory to the AP's. The cost of shipping to Australia makes me balk at the physical product, but I would buy the pdf in a heartbeat.

Just got caught up on the news and found the correct thread.

Really disappointed at the end of Paizo's pawn collections. I'm sure you guys ran the numbers and all but they were a large incentive for running APs for me and passing around the pawns whenever I introduced a new enemy or NPC was a lot of fun.

Sad to see the end of the pawn collections. They are so convenient when doing the whole 'travelling GM' thing. I take it there's probably no way to justify continuing to put together the .pdf of the pawns so we can DIY them, is there? I mean, most of the art is there, but especially for NPCs it's nice to have full body shots.

I just got in the expected shipping costs for the next quater, and, well, they're still climbing.

So after various work re-arrangements, I've also sadly sent an email off to Paizo CS today to end my subs.

The squeeze is real.

Personally as a new GM to 2E but long-time player the discontinuation of the pawns line has seriously impacted my confidence in Paizo as a brand and my willingness to put money into the game in general. I have a full bookshelf of Pathfinder books already, but knowing not to expect supporting materials on top of Paizo's continued unwillingness to partner with FLGS or regional suppliers in any way to mitigate the ridiculous international shipping costs of subscriptions is really disheartening. Yes, the primary audience of the game is in the US, but Paizo is also actively making the choice to keep it that way.

And your solution would be?

And your solution would be?

For the pawns? If it's truly an issue with the cost of the physical media, offer a digital alternative, whether that be new pawn pdfs, tokens, or simply committing to including art of all new creatures in the APs that feature them so we can make our own.

For shipping? This I will admit is hearsay, but according to those retailers I have spoken to, Paizo have been approached with on multiple occasions by stores and distributors outside the US and the reply has remained the same: that alternative options like bundling orders and subscriptions, con pick-ups and such are something they are only willing to do in the contiguous US.

That said, these things are obviously more complex than any of us in the hobby but outside the industry can possibly know (the art itself isn't free, etc), but also it's not our job as consumers to brainstorm these things. I'm not really interested in having that discussion, only in adding to the chorus of voices expressing discontent and explaining the reason for my own on the off chance someone with more control over these things sees people buying less of something and stops to ask why.

The long and short of it for me is that not having to make everything from scratch is the point of buying an AP; I'm perfectly capable of making my own tokens or miniatures and sourcing art but if I'm doing so anyway I'm more inclined to also write my own adventure.

Just for openness, I'd think making them PDF only would be a way to go, but like you said neither of us have the logistics on whether that would help them still.

For the shipping, I'd chalk it up to complexity, taxes, and just cost in general, the pawns weren't very profitable to begin with after all, they were more advertising if I recall the conversation correctly.

Thanks for your feedback. Paizo has an 80% new leadership team. The winds of change are blowing. We are reinventing ourselves and examining the old ways of doing things. Of course this takes time. Thanks for your passion and support.

Ugh — I’m way late to the party here, but the pawns line was one of my favorites. It was an amazing value for GMs looking to build up a selection of monsters on the cheap. There is simply no product on the market that compares, and TTRPGing as a whole is worse off for the loss. :-(

As a new GM currently in the process of transitioning over from D&D, I've just learned about the death of the pawns line when I couldn't find a physical copy of the Player Character Pawns anywhere.

I've got a feeling there's a whole lot of new Pathfinder GM's that would've really liked the pawn line. Maybe all the recent happenings may just cause a reboot since interest in Pathfinder has got to be quite high currently.

If it's sold at a loss selling more at a loss does not offset the loss.

That said they are very likely looking into alternatives for the pawns lines or possibly even releasing just digital versions of them.

As a new GM currently in the process of transitioning over from D&D, I've just learned about the death of the pawns line when I couldn't find a physical copy of the Player Character Pawns anywhere.

I've got a feeling there's a whole lot of new Pathfinder GM's that would've really liked the pawn line. Maybe all the recent happenings may just cause a reboot since interest in Pathfinder has got to be quite high currently.

Paizo will keep the core pawns (Bestiaries for Pathfinder and Alien Archives for Starfinder) and the bases (Pathfinder Pawns: Base Assortment and Starfinder Pawns: Base Assortment) in stock for as long there’s enough demand, but they will no longer be part of a subscription.

As yet another newish GM switching over from 5e, I'd like to add my voice to those craving core pawns, especially for PCs. It's surprisingly hard for me to find a half-orc paladin pawn/mini out there. I'm not interested in painting.

I do wonder if there's some kind of plastic sleeve/holder that could be placed in a pawn base. Getting the PDF-printed pawns to stand up straight is quite the challenge. If I had, say, a pack of twenty-five pawn-sized plastic holders into which I could slide a paper pawn, I could print pawns, insert them into the plastic sleeve before the game, and have plenty of pawns. Not as convenient for storage, not as nice in the hand, perhaps, but it would work.

(With that said, I get the whole "if it's losing money, don't make more" concept. For me, though, VTTs aren't how I want to run my games, and my players want pawns and maps.)

One trick for using printouts of pawns is to use a bulldog clip with the "wire" part removed as a base.

If you like them a little more mini like you can then glue the upended bulldog clip to a mini base.

EDIT: looks like they might be called foldback clips these days.

Those are called binder clips in the US.

Oh, cheers. Well they work pretty well, in my experience.