Paizo Update from Jeff Alvarez

I am saying this broadly, and not directly in response to anyone, because it's been happening for a while now:

Jessica Price, Crystal Frasier, Diego Valdez, Liz Courts and those others who have raised their various concerns are members of this community. There are rules about personal attacks leveled at other community members, rules which I think everyone here knows. These people don't become open season the second they're no longer employees of Paizo. If you wouldn't say it to me, it's not appropriate to say about them.

Jessica may be a divisive and passionate individual but her claims have been corroborated by *multiple* former and even some current paizo employees. I don't care if you don't like her, that doesn't mean she's not telling the truth. I choose to believe the multiple people that have come forward with their allegations, I have thought hard on this and I know what I'm doing thank you very much

I'm still waiting, since they said they needed a few more business days. This stuff does take time. Even if everyone at Paizo was perfectly on the same page, writing up new policies or the like can be extremely cumbersome and take longer than people think, since bureaucracy is just another form of labor. For now, I'm suspending any final judgment on their handling of this.

Fair enough. It is definitely better to take their time and release a comprehensive statement to show where they've erred and how they're going to improve. Rather than release 2-3 piecemeal statements a week that are inadequate on their own just for the sake of not going radio silent. For my part, I'm gonna suspend purchases until they've got that comprehensive statement.

For those that didn't see, Aaron made a very small post on twitter today about taking some time off after 12 days in a row, and added to it that while there's no news, internal conversations are happening between staff and management. Post tagged with #PaizoAccountability.

For those that didn't see, Aaron made a very small post on twitter today about taking some time off after 12 days in a row, and added to it that while there's no news, internal conversations are happening between staff and management. Post tagged with #PaizoAccountability.

Working 12 days in a row is definitely a huge part of the problem if that's the office culture at Paizo.

In fairness, that's not always precisely management's deliberate fault, though it is their responsibility. I really think what we've been gathering this last week or so is that Paizo's been operating at a pretty unsustainable pace for a while now. The labor value and cost of living are both far more than the company feels they can afford to pay in their industry. That probably has consequences elsewhere down the line.

For those that didn't see, Aaron made a very small post on twitter today about taking some time off after 12 days in a row, and added to it that while there's no news, internal conversations are happening between staff and management. Post tagged with #PaizoAccountability.

12 days? Is that legal in the US? (I am an Australian and this whole affair has had me being very confused about US labour laws - both that many days in a row and the carpet thing are both super illegal here, so I'm not sure how to gauge this.)

12 is the limit in a lot of states I believe.

12 is the limit in a lot of states I believe.

just looked it up and in Germany, theoretically, 19 days would be possible and allowed in certain jobs. Don't know that to happen in reality, but at least for us nurses, 12 days isn't that uncommon either.

To be fair to Paizo, these last 12 days were probably an anomaly with GenCon and all the pressure the community has put on for change right now this instant.

12 is the limit in a lot of states I believe.

Washington is not one of those states; there's no limit to days worked in a row here.

I know this personally because I moved from California (where the limit is effectively 12*) to Washington and had a bit of a shock when I was asked to work 15 or so days in a row.

--

*California's law actually specifies that employees must receive at least one day off every seven days, but since that goes by calendar week if an employee gives you a Sunday off one week and a Saturday off the next week that's 12 days in a row and legal... but if they give you 12 days in a row in any other combination of days it's not legal.

Very weird.

Working 12 days in a row is definitely a huge part of the problem if that's the office culture at Paizo.

Most workplaces have times when you work long hours and/or long weeks. I've gone six months or more working 6-tens or 7-days a week. As long as you are adequately compensated with OT, comp time, etc. its not a problem. Gen Con is one of those times when you give up your weekend and work basically two weeks straight. That's typical of the entire gaming industry.

Wouldn’t you want yer PR guy working right now?

He's already worked 12 days in a row. Overworked and unhappy PR guy is not a good thing.

Does the labour law in US allow the employer to feed on the entrails of their still-living employees?

Only on Sundays because that's when God's distracted.

Doesn't keep some companies from expanding that to Saturday or Monday because that's Sunday somewhere they've planted their corporate flag.

I once worked the whole month of July. It happens and you make good overtime.

** spoiler omitted **

If we're gonna keep talking about Aaron's thread, maybe somebody should link it so we all know the context?

There definitely comes a point where the overtime stops being worth it; I've reached that point myself. At a certain point you just need a darn break.

I agree, but I would say that point is probably much longer than 12 days, assuming of course you are being compensated for the OT. I have worked jobs that expected 60+ hours out of their mgmt staff even though the salary is based on the 40-48 hour schedule typical of managers in the US.

He's already worked 12 days in a row. Overworked and unhappy PR guy is not a good thing.

I agree. But this situation is for what you pay him; hours be damned.

If we're gonna keep talking about Aaron's thread, maybe somebody should link it so we all know the context?

I assume this is what is being mentioned.

Rysky wrote:

He's already worked 12 days in a row. Overworked and unhappy PR guy is not a good thing.

I agree. But this situation is for what you pay him; hours be damned.

Which is the reason why you should have procedures and back-up in places to avoid everything resting on one person's shoulders.

Avoiding firing a key employee just before the high-pressure 2 weeks would help too.

I guess for a year or two they will avoid this specific period for that kind of shenanigan.

Leg o' Lamb wrote:

Rysky wrote:

He's already worked 12 days in a row. Overworked and unhappy PR guy is not a good thing.

I agree. But this situation is for what you pay him; hours be damned.

I guess for a year or two they will avoid this specific period for that kind of shenanigan.

Let’s not be hasty now.

TwilightKnight wrote:

** spoiler omitted **

** spoiler omitted **

There definitely comes a point where the overtime stops being worth it; I've reached that point myself. At a certain point you just need a darn break.

And that point is different for each individual. Not everyone should be expected to give up on their work-life balance, even with overtime pay. If you're constantly being assigned work that can't be done in a 40 hour work week, the problem is not you, but again on the management.

JoelF847 wrote:

Working 12 days in a row is definitely a huge part of the problem if that's the office culture at Paizo.

Most workplaces have times when you work long hours and/or long weeks. I've gone six months or more working 6-tens or 7-days a week. As long as you are adequately compensated with OT, comp time, etc. its not a problem. Gen Con is one of those times when you give up your weekend and work basically two weeks straight. That's typical of the entire gaming industry.

** spoiler omitted **

If you're hourly, yes you get OT, comp time etc. If you're salaried (which I'm guessing is the case for almost everyone at Paizo, but could be wrong) then you get....exactly nothing for working OT, unless the company gives you something. Sure, Gen Con might be a seasonal spike, but a) Paizo didn't attend Gen Con this year in person, and b) when that does happen, a good employer will give equivalent time off so you're not just working 12 days in a row. If you work weekends for Gen Con, etc. you should have the Monday/Tuesday off afterwards. If not everyone can take the same days off, then stagger it, so some have a few days before Gen Con off, some have a few days after, etc.

Does the law require it? No. Does a good employer do it? Yes.

I do want to be fair and acknowledge that Aaron mentions working twelve days in a row as an aside, and we don't know any of the circumstances under which he chose or felt obligated to do so. That said, I do think it's worth talking about here. Working twelve days in a row should be recognized as an aberration.

Removed some personal attacks and the resulting commentary. Thank you for keeping the discussion relatively calm over the weekend.

I do want to be fair and acknowledge that Aaron mentions working twelve days in a row as an aside, and we don't know any of the circumstances under which he chose or felt obligated to do so. That said, I do think it's worth talking about here. Working twelve days in a row should be recognized as an aberration.

Aw, thank you, but no worries. I am salaried and exempt from overtime in Washington State. My work can and does occasionally go beyond a 40 work week. Just during PaizoCon and Gen Con, really. OK, Paizo LIVE too. ;) I work with my manager to get time off elsewhere.

In this case, I'm the one who wanted to run long hours of Gen Con programming, including staff seminars and live plays, because I wanted to show off the content creator community to the Gen Con audience. No manager asked me to. It was out of my own enthusiasm and initiative. And I got to it in the comfort of my home.

I'll work with the Marketing Coordinator—who is also in my dept, but does not report to me—to give me more breaks over the next con.

Have I complained about feeling overworked and burned out before? Yes, and my manager listened, restructured the department, and things got better. And that happened because the Exec team approved the change.

Anecdotally, I am also a proud member of Actors Equity Association, the stage actor's union. We would do 8 shows a week with 1 guaranteed day off during a 1 week period. To make schedules work during the holidays we sometimes worked with looooong seperations between those days off. And that was under contract. Was I tired? Heck yes. But I see both these situations within acceptable and legal work perimeters.

Thanks for sharing, Aaron! I didn't want us to read into anything, but it's honestly really helpful to get more insight about the way worktime works.

Also, thanks for the Twitter update! I know we all appreciated it a lot, even if it led to all this hubbub on here. :P

nedleeds wrote:

There's a line at your door for people who love role playing and aren't drenched in angsty griefer victim politics. Fire whoever you want, you're a private business. Most of the white knights in this thread would happily shutter their gofundme or quit Panera to work for you. Don't bend to the mob or they'll bend you.

Just for reference.... There are quite a few current employees at paizo that also have patreons. So if people quit their Panera Bread job and by some miracle get a job at Paizo that possibly pays less I doubt they will be able to cancel their patreon or gofundme accounts....

Maybe they should consider an industry that pays more, or given the tools for self publishing and open source media tools start their own RPG company? You see, that's actually hard. Even the people here so scorned by an internal HR issue unrelated to the product itself (a ttrpg, a whimsical hobby for us lucky enough to not be substance level farmers, not exactly a life saving product) can go make a better Paizo with all the policies they want. By count in this thread you've got plenty of people. Be well and I hope you find satisfaction in your hobby vendors.

Yoshua wrote:

nedleeds wrote:

There's a line at your door for people who love role playing and aren't drenched in angsty griefer victim politics. Fire whoever you want, you're a private business. Most of the white knights in this thread would happily shutter their gofundme or quit Panera to work for you. Don't bend to the mob or they'll bend you.

Just for reference.... There are quite a few current employees at paizo that also have patreons. So if people quit their Panera Bread job and by some miracle get a job at Paizo that possibly pays less I doubt they will be able to cancel their patreon or gofundme accounts....

Maybe they should consider an industry that pays more, or given the tools for self publishing and open source media tools start their own RPG company? You see, that's actually hard. Even the people here so scorned by an internal HR issue unrelated to the product itself (a ttrpg, a whimsical hobby for us lucky enough to not be substance level farmers, not exactly a life saving product) can go make a better Paizo with all the policies they want. By count in this thread you've got plenty of people. Be well and I hope you find satisfaction in your hobby vendors.

Creative RPG people want to work in the field because they love it, but that love can lead to exploitation.

Starting up your own RPG company is not only hard, but is a long shot gamble that is almost certainly going to pay less, possibly much less for years if it ever pays off at all.

I don't want good creative people whose work I enjoy to leave the industry and stop making that work in order to earn a decent living.

One week since this post. I know internal conversations are still going around and likely will be until the end of time. But still hoping for transparency on what actions are being taken to create the inclusive environment at work that your product portrays.

Also, while I understand you can't discuss personnel matters, it won't stop me from asking about the Sara Marie and Diego situation that from an outside perspective was handled... at best, poorly.

If even in generics, or specifics, why would someone be unceremoniously fired and in such a way that one of their direct reports would, in theory, quit in protest. I mean, theoretically what might cause that type of situation and what would the upper management do to rectify it if it were to have occurred in the past, present, or future?

Lastly, I continue to wonder if the outside survey which would allow employees to anonymously report their grievances will be enough. I've been on both ends of 'anonymous' surveys and let me tell ya that when they still break it down by department and there are 3 people in that department? Management will most certainly know exactly who said what. With that being said how confident are you that the anonymous information gathered in such a way will be an honest critique?

I have been working with these anonymous surveys as well, and if done decently you only provide aggregated data, and only if group sizes tracks a certain amount of people (eg 15).

Also if you want to retaliate based on this type of data, you would be a pretty crappy manager and person…

I have been working with these anonymous surveys as well, and if done decently you only provide aggregated data, and only if group sizes tracks a certain amount of people (eg 15).

Also if you want to retaliate based on this type of data, you would be a pretty crappy manager and person…

Agreed 100%

I had a management that did in fact retaliate. My group was joined up with another group because my team was 3 members and theirs was 5. Based on the answers it was very clear what members where parts of which team and it was indeed. Crappy.

I no longer partake in these anonymous surveys because of what happened. I also was not the one retaliated against.

It is much more efficient and practical to have a relationship of trust with someone in management that you know will listen to you confidentially and take your concerns up the chain as appropriate. If I don't feel I have that relationship with someone in a company I keep my head down and do my job. If something happens that makes me decide to leave? Then I always have that option as well.

nedleeds wrote:

Yoshua wrote:

nedleeds wrote:

There's a line at your door for people who love role playing and aren't drenched in angsty griefer victim politics. Fire whoever you want, you're a private business. Most of the white knights in this thread would happily shutter their gofundme or quit Panera to work for you. Don't bend to the mob or they'll bend you.

Just for reference.... There are quite a few current employees at paizo that also have patreons. So if people quit their Panera Bread job and by some miracle get a job at Paizo that possibly pays less I doubt they will be able to cancel their patreon or gofundme accounts....

Maybe they should consider an industry that pays more, or given the tools for self publishing and open source media tools start their own RPG company? You see, that's actually hard. Even the people here so scorned by an internal HR issue unrelated to the product itself (a ttrpg, a whimsical hobby for us lucky enough to not be substance level farmers, not exactly a life saving product) can go make a better Paizo with all the policies they want. By count in this thread you've got plenty of people. Be well and I hope you find satisfaction in your hobby vendors.

Creative RPG people want to work in the field because they love it, but that love can lead to exploitation.

Starting up your own RPG company is not only hard, but is a long shot gamble that is almost certainly going to pay less, possibly much less for years if it ever pays off at all.

I don't want good creative people whose work I enjoy to leave the industry and stop making that work in order to earn a decent living.

You sound knowledgeable, you could take the long shot, start the company and hire the good creative people. That way they get paid if you fail and they won't get discouraged.

I think thejeff summarized the reasons "just go found your own company" isn't really very realistic advice quite well.

"if you don't like how a thing is done, fix it by doing it yourself" is patently ridiculous. It is like when I complain about how the government treats people with disability, and people tell me "stop complaining about it and become prime minister so you can fix it" (I've actually been told this).

Just because you are unable (or unwilling) to do a job, doesn't mean you don't get to give feedback on how people who do the job do things.

The thing is, making a company from the ground up is hard. You risk you own livelihood in a bet that your idea will take off with no guarantees. You have no overtime pay or workers rights.

It really makes you appreciate entrepeneurs like Lisa. She even released the means of production with Pathfinder Infinite and Starfinder Infinite.

Humbly,
Yawar

I think thejeff summarized the reasons "just go found your own company" isn't really very realistic advice quite well.

"not only hard, but is a long shot gamble that is almost certainly going to pay less"

It's hard? No kidding, how is that a barrier? Anyone how gets up the morning and runs a business knows this, everyone who has a payroll that needs to be paid knows this. But if you want to set policy then the best way is to be the boss and run the company.

Long shot gamble. Sure, but if you have the talent and work ethic certainly trying to make your passion (which multiple people in this thread seem to have) your profession is worth it. The other option of complaining about policies of companies you don't even work for just seems, well kind of hollow. What do any of you know about running a publishing company anyway? Go do it and tell us about your way of doing it better.

Pay less. So you want to profit off the founders risk and hard work and want to bear none of it yourself. Your attitude is frankly defeatist, go read your posts. You put all this energy and passion into a company you don't own. Put it into your own endeavor and do things your way. Be well, and best of luck.

The thing is, making a company from the ground up is hard. You risk you own livelihood in a bet that your idea will take off with no guarantees. You have no overtime pay or workers rights.

It really makes you appreciate entrepeneurs like Lisa. She even released the means of production with Pathfinder Infinite and Starfinder Infinite.

Humbly,
Yawar

Woah, woah woah. I love community content programs dearly, but it's not "releasing the means of production" in any way that that phrase is used politically. DTRPG takes a 35% cut and the partner (Paizo in this case) takes 15%. Releasing the means of production would be making Lost Omens public domain (which, to be clear, I'm not advocating for).

We don't need to rehash the many, many, many debates within the TTRPG writer sphere about whether those numbers are fair. But we also don't need to say a capitalist act is a socialist one. Infinite is an awesome idea, we can let it be what it is.

Have I complained about feeling overworked and burned out before? Yes, and my manager listened, restructured the department, and things got better. And that happened because the Exec team approved the change.

Awesome for sharing openly and honestly!

I do want to be fair and acknowledge that Aaron mentions working twelve days in a row as an aside, and we don't know any of the circumstances under which he chose or felt obligated to do so. That said, I do think it's worth talking about here. Working twelve days in a row should be recognized as an aberration.

I think it's weird how people on here are speculating how others are being treated which are causing people to respond on their own personal experiences. I know in my own personal experience I love my company enough to work 12 days in a row especially during large releases. I don't think it should be recognized as a negative thing necessarily. I think as long as the people and the organizations work together as Aaaron shared above. I am privileged enough in my field where I wouldn't work for a company I couldn't passionately engage and work extra hours to make sure a project or launch is successful... I would not want government or people to interfere with that either.

The difficulty of “no government or outside interference because it worked for me” is that it presupposes a positive outcome. The whole purpose of labour rights laws is that it prevents abuse by assuming the worst and raising the bar for everyone. So, for instance, while it would be ideal to pay people a living wage, and one could even argue that the system incentivizes employers to do this (I don’t buy that argument, but it *could* be made), that doesn’t get over the fact that some companies will always try and cut corners or don’t give a fig about their staff. In these cases, you get the labour laws dictating what a “minimum” is. Sure, there are some people that love working overtime and would voluntarily engage with their work outside their parameters. But for every person that does, there’s the potential for another person where that assumption is used by an employer to exploit a non-consenting employee. So while it’s great you had a good experience, unless there’s something compelling other companies to follow suite with enough authority, many won’t, and people will be harmed. In addition, in my state for e.g., you can only work so many hours before you are required to receive a break. You can volunteer to work past it, but must sign paperwork to consent to it voluntarily. It’s not an ideal system because some employers will retaliate against workers that don’t sign (which is illegal, btw), it’s still at least some kind of protection. An employer can’t work their most vulnerable employees half to death on a whim. There are *some* hoops they have to go through. Honestly, given the willingness of many employers to try and circumvent even the existing labour laws specifically to overwork their staff for an extra few pennies on the bottom line, I’d argue we already need stronger labour laws, not more lax ones. But that’s just me…

Long shot gamble. Sure,

Definition: Longshot

but if you have the talent and work ethic certainly trying to make your passion (...) your profession is worth it.

By the definition of "longshot", it only has the slightest chance of being worth it. The "slightest chance" and "certainly" are very different odds.

I think you might be confused about how private business and the exchange of money for goods and services works in the US. A private wholesale/retail business is (at least by theoretical definition) wholly reliant on customers for income*. If the customers choose to spend elsewhere, the business has no income. Therefore, customers have the ability to place demands on a company, before exchanging their money for the goods or services the company produces. Customers with a developed sense of morality (or at least their own self interest) can withhold their spending from companies that do not meet their standards.

Things get a little more complex when talking about goods and services required for survival or success in a society, but for discretionary items like most entertainment, the customers have near total control. This total control also means that customers have substantial responsibilities. The customer is making the choice to financially support the company, so the customer is morally liable for all the company does for good or ill.

*A private company could be funded solely by the fortunes of the owners, however it would always operate at a total loss.

the customer is morally liable for all the company does for good or ill.

I don't agree. Be well.