Help Paizo Celebrate Kingmaker's 10th Anniversary!

I want to cast my vote for a Pathfinder 1e/3.5 OGL version, too! Though.. Oh, hey, with 5e stats I can be a Planeswalker AND the King of Narland! o_o

(Sobbing uncontrollably.) I'm just so happy!!!

The 5E stuff appears to just be a bestiary. Any other system changes will have to be done by the GM.
I would assume, based on RotRL and CotCT hardcovers there isn't going to be a whole host of new bad guys to fight so you'll likely be able to substitute the existing PF2E monsters with the 1st edition monsters without a problem.

Or am I missing something?

Derry L. Zimeye wrote:

All that work... Converting Kingmaker to the Playtest for our podcast... All for naught...

That, or we can claim Dice Will Roll was ahead of the trend!

Where is this podcast, pray tell? The more we can see how the community has made similar conversions, the better we can incorporate their good ideas into the wider release.

It's scary the people at paizo don't know about this pod. https://www.facebook.com/dicewillroll/

After find the path it's the best pathfinder related podcast.

I don't get the calls for a PF1 version...

There's already a PF1 version of Kingmaker.

Plus, converting the big hardcover from PF2 to PF1 will be super easy, as all the monsters are already done. You should be able to run it on the fly using content you already own.

A conversion book is needed for 5e because many of the monsters simply don't exist, or are the wrong level (to say nothing of NPCs). And the math for the DCs and such is completely different.

Plus, the audience for a PF1 conversion will be small. Because so many already have the content, either in terms of monsters or the AP itself. If a PF1 player wanted to buy or play Kingmaker, they've had a decade to get the book, either the initial printing, a print-out of the PDF, or a print-on-demand version of the PDF.
Meanwhile, most of the audience that plays 5e hasn't had the opportunity, as half the players of D&D weren't playing when Kingmaker launched. And not all of the ones who were bought Pathfinder books. It's a much, much larger audience.

If the book won't sell lots of copies, it's harder to recoup the development costs.

I don't get the calls for a PF1 version...

There's already a PF1 version of Kingmaker.

I got rid of all my AP softcovers due to space concerns. I would love a compiled hardcover to be able to reference when running the AP. PDFs get me by but are not my preferred method of reading.

I love kingmaker, and I am also sick to death of 3.5 in all of its forms. Upgrading it to the new edition is probably the only way to get me to buy for Pathfinder products. It should basically be its own campaign setting, and get a fraction of the attention that's lavished on Cheliax.

I think there should be more ways for the P2E & DD5E communities to cross-pollinate as well, so this is a good idea.

They can clean up a lot of the plotting problems in adaptation, especially how all the actual kingdom management is more or less abandoned toward the end of the path in favor of conflict with a big bad nobody's interested in. More involvement with the rest of the kingdoms would add links to other areas so people can explore more.

I don't get the calls for a PF1 version...

There's already a PF1 version of Kingmaker.

True, but with the Runelords and the Crimson Throne, not only did they update the rules, they also expanded on the stuff already written.

And for that alone (and also assuming that some of the rules used for that AP would be improved upon), it would totally be worth it.

But in the end, I don't really care. What I buy isn't really dependent on the the ruleset used, so I'd probably buy that Hardcover anyways, no matter what ruleset is used for it. I love PF1 and will probably still use it for a long time, but that doesn't stop me from buying 5E stuff, and certainly won't stop me from buying PF 2E stuff.

The thing is if Paizo chooses not to support P1E, P1E players are much better off than 5E players would be trying to run Kingmaker without support.
P1E doesn't need a Hardcover Bestiary, it already has those.
Basically there is a small roster of unique monsters and Classed NPCs, with stats from the original AP content already existing and published...
Leaving only unique non-Bestiary monsters and Classed NPCs from the new content to need 1e stats, which seems entirely do-able.
It might be nice if Paizo could convert the latter and reprint all of those in pamphlet or merely a PDF.
But since rules content is OGL, I don't see what is stopping anybody in community from re-distributing those existing 1e stats,
with proper names and serial numbers filed off (page# reference to new Kingmaker hardcover would make sense),
and sharing 1e conversion of the new Classed NPCs and unique monsters likewise seems entirely plausible, even here on boards.

...and also assuming that some of the rules used for that AP would be improved upon...

That's what Ultimate Campaign already does.

Wish list for the 5E Bestiary for Kingmaker:
• Monsters unique to AP
• Monsters from Bestiaries needed to run AP, otherwise not in MM
• NPCs needed to run AP
• A couple surprise unique to Pathfinder monsters, such as Egregore from B5.

(I grow bored with the only discussion being this edition vs. that edition, so let's talk content!)

Things I'd like to see done/redone in an updated version of Kingmaker:
• Do a clearer job of linking all the chapters to Nyrissa's plot (even tangentially) and foreshadowing her more.
• Sprinkle bits of Zuddiger's Picnic throughout the AP, not just in the final chapter.
• Give PCs the opportunity to meet the other parties (Drelev, Varn, the Iron Medusas) before they set off into the Stolen Lands (like a big banquet in Brevoy or something) so they know the other personalities and like/dislike them (or at least have feelings about them) before they meet again in later chapters.
• I borrowed an idea someone else on the boards created, and then modified it a little for my players, where each PC had role in the exploration party (like cook, chronicler or cartographer) that gave little bonuses but also served as practice for when they took on bigger, more important roles as rulers of their kingdom. It also made it feel more like they were actual explorers with a mission and not just adventures looking for XP. My players all reported enjoying it. Consider including a little something along these lines.
• Either move the Rushlight Tournament up earlier to when the PCs are still nobodies or come up with a better reason why rulers (and not their champions) would compete versus other rulers' champions. Personally, I'd go with the former.
• I didn't use it, but I read some great ideas on the boards about a growing monster kingdom as a motivator and foil to the PC's fledgling kingdom.
• Give more details (kingdom stats, army stats, hex maps, etc.) for surrounding kingdoms. If PCs are going to interact with them on a kingdom-to-kingdom level, it would help to know their stats and where they claim their borders are. I'd say Drelev and Varn's holdings, Pitax, Mendev for sure - it's right there across the river and gets very little attention in the current write-up - maybe even Brevoy in case PCs go in that direction.

• Give PCs the opportunity to meet the other parties (Drelev, Varn, the Iron Medusas) before they set off into the Stolen Lands (like a big banquet in Brevoy or something) so they know the other personalities and like/dislike them (or at least have feelings about them) before they meet again in later chapters.

Might also be nice to include little "Where are they now?" sidebars about each party in earlier chapters, before they show up in an adventure sense. For example, right after Ch 1, players could hear that Drelev has built a small fort, Varn has established a town but has been having trouble with X, and the Iron Medusas have ...

Why do people buy complete series DVDs when the individual seasons have been out for years? Why are graphic novels (trade paperback collections) of comics sold in pretty much every bookstore everywhere when people could easily just have bought the individual issues months or years before? Why do people buy the Collected Works of Shakespeare instead of one play or sonnet at a time? It's because people like the convenience and elegance of having everything in one package. For something like the Kingmaker AP, they like it even better if it has new artwork and an improved story. That's why there's a vocal request for it to be updated for 1E.

My group has tried Kingmaker for 1E, we pretty much dropped it due to lack of interest in 1E's rules and because our Ranger kept killing everything he intended to spare to interrogate (really unlucky damage rolls). So having 2e adaptations and expansions for Kingmaker is fantastic for us because all of us are excited for 2e.

I’ve been converting Carrion Crown to 5e, and converting creatures is definitely one of the most time consuming aspects of preparation. However, so is converting traps, haunts, and magic items. Any chance these items also could be included in the bestiary?

I do kinda wonder if they are going to incorporate the Song of Silver bonus npc or ignore them since they ARE bonus npc just like how Crimson Throne bonus npc wasn't added to AP on hardcover version

Jester David wrote:

I don't get the calls for a PF1 version...

There's already a PF1 version of Kingmaker.

True, but with the Runelords and the Crimson Throne, not only did they update the rules, they also expanded on the stuff already written.

And for that alone (and also assuming that some of the rules used for that AP would be improved upon), it would totally be worth it.

But in the end, I don't really care. What I buy isn't really dependent on the the ruleset used, so I'd probably buy that Hardcover anyways, no matter what ruleset is used for it. I love PF1 and will probably still use it for a long time, but that doesn't stop me from buying 5E stuff, and certainly won't stop me from buying PF 2E stuff.

However with both Runelords and Throne, while yes they expanded on stuff that was already written, they did not include that stuff for the previous edition of the game. It was all for the update. The same is here. Anyone who wanted to run a 3.5 version of the Runelords or Throne collected editions had to do that work themselves, and you may have to do that work yourself with this one, though we still don't know for sure.

Why do people buy complete series DVDs when the individual seasons have been out for years? Why are graphic novels (trade paperback collections) of comics sold in pretty much every bookstore everywhere when people could easily just have bought the individual issues months or years before? Why do people buy the Collected Works of Shakespeare instead of one play or sonnet at a time? It's because people like the convenience and elegance of having everything in one package. For something like the Kingmaker AP, they like it even better if it has new artwork and an improved story. That's why there's a vocal request for it to be updated for 1E.

A few of your examples aren't great. The comics to TPB one specifically. Almost nobody I know (and I know lots of comics readers, it being one of my jobs to report on comics) buy both floppies and TPBs for every series they get. Most get one or the other. If I really like a series I'll get both. The only series I'm close to on that is The Wicket + The Divine, and even then I only have three trade paperbacks from that, and one I only bought because I have a pull quote on the back of it. People don't often buy things multiple times unless they really love it, or something really special got added to it.

GM PDK wrote:

Samy wrote:

Provide stats for both 1e and 2e, and I will happily pay $100.

2e only = $0.

It's ironic if they'll be more willing to support a competitor's 5E than their own 1E product.

I hope it's some miscommunication... 2E, 5E (for their competitors!!!) but not 1E? wtf?!?

Kingmaker IS Pathfinder Classic.

It's OUT OF PRINT!!! seriously man... and fans of the 1E VIDEOGAME are plenty justified in wanting a 1E printed version of all the additional 1E VIDEOGAME content!

Freehold DM wrote:

TriOmegaZero wrote:

I started out caring about them when they were a 3PP for WotC. Why would now be any different?

If 1e fans are sacrificed on the altar of 2e fans(who do not yet exist), it may change how I feel about the company.

The way I hear it, that happened the moment 2E and the end of 1E content was announced.

TOZ please. Life isn't always a punchline. Stop throwing oil on that fire. People have been investing time and money with Paizo for what now, 11 or 12 years? To just make light of the fans of the game who feel invested in what Paizo's done isn't cool. I get that you're not emotionally invested in 1E but some people are. Be kind.

2E is happening and I've made my bed with it, but there's no need to split fans of the setting in two camps at this point. Plenty of room for everyone here.

Mark Moreland wrote:

Derry L. Zimeye wrote:

All that work... Converting Kingmaker to the Playtest for our podcast... All for naught...

That, or we can claim Dice Will Roll was ahead of the trend!

Where is this podcast, pray tell? The more we can see how the community has made similar conversions, the better we can incorporate their good ideas into the wider release.

It's scary the people at paizo don't know about this pod. https://www.facebook.com/dicewillroll/

After find the path it's the best pathfinder related podcast.

Sorry, I didn't mean to scare you. We're busy here, mostly making books and trying to produce the best quality RPG experiences for our community we possibly can. That doesn't always leave a ton of time to follow all the podcasts the community makes in return. And just because I didn't know about it doesn't mean no one at Paizo does. And, hey, I know about it now, so that's a win, right?

captain yesterday wrote:

GM PDK wrote:

Samy wrote:

Provide stats for both 1e and 2e, and I will happily pay $100.

2e only = $0.

It's ironic if they'll be more willing to support a competitor's 5E than their own 1E product.

I hope it's some miscommunication... 2E, 5E (for their competitors!!!) but not 1E? wtf?!?

Kingmaker IS Pathfinder Classic.

It's OUT OF PRINT!!! seriously man... and fans of the 1E VIDEOGAME are plenty justified in wanting a 1E printed version of all the additional 1E VIDEOGAME content!

And the magic of PDFs are that they are always available. Hmm.

TOZ please.

You're gonna blame ME for splitting fans? Really?

GM PDK wrote:

captain yesterday wrote:

GM PDK wrote:

Samy wrote:

Provide stats for both 1e and 2e, and I will happily pay $100.

2e only = $0.

It's ironic if they'll be more willing to support a competitor's 5E than their own 1E product.

I hope it's some miscommunication... 2E, 5E (for their competitors!!!) but not 1E? wtf?!?

Kingmaker IS Pathfinder Classic.

It's OUT OF PRINT!!! seriously man... and fans of the 1E VIDEOGAME are plenty justified in wanting a 1E printed version of all the additional 1E VIDEOGAME content!

And the magic of PDFs are that they are always available. Hmm.

It doesn't sound like you've played the Kingmaker video game. There's tons of new content in the game. The bonus content described in the article is from that game. It is NEW stuff. But, hey, thanks for letting me know PDFs are a thing... guess my subscriptions all these years finally paid off! :D

Cori Marie wrote:

GM PDK wrote:

captain yesterday wrote:

GM PDK wrote:

Samy wrote:

Provide stats for both 1e and 2e, and I will happily pay $100.

2e only = $0.

It's ironic if they'll be more willing to support a competitor's 5E than their own 1E product.

I hope it's some miscommunication... 2E, 5E (for their competitors!!!) but not 1E? wtf?!?

Kingmaker IS Pathfinder Classic.

It's OUT OF PRINT!!! seriously man... and fans of the 1E VIDEOGAME are plenty justified in wanting a 1E printed version of all the additional 1E VIDEOGAME content!

And the magic of PDFs are that they are always available. Hmm.

It doesn't sound like you've played the Kingmaker video game. There's tons of new content in the game. The bonus content described in the article is from that game. It is NEW stuff. But, hey, thanks for letting me know PDFs are a thing... guess my subscriptions all these years finally paid off! :D

I was replying mostly to your first part, with the screamy all caps "out of print". As to your second part, I'm guessing the number of video game players that are ready to flip tables because of edition wars is probably not as high as you think.

PS: You're not what I consider a 'relatively unknown actor'.

Phew! Was scared that you're talking about me for a second. Fortunately, "unknown" is the last thing you can say about me.

You can throw me in the camp that would be happy to toss money Paizo's way for 1E Hardcover, but that has no interest in 2E.

Even for first edition, I really don't see the point (at least personally.) Kingmaker is definitely a path that I enjoyed, but it already has the new game and there are still two paths that were never properly updated to pathfinder and those will be missed. Especially Legacy of Fire...

On the flip side while I'm not ready to change editions, and may never be, I can still understand the desire for their next re-edit to be in the latest edition and not an old format for which support will likely slowly fade out.

captain yesterday wrote:

GM PDK wrote:

Samy wrote:

Provide stats for both 1e and 2e, and I will happily pay $100.

2e only = $0.

It's ironic if they'll be more willing to support a competitor's 5E than their own 1E product.

I hope it's some miscommunication... 2E, 5E (for their competitors!!!) but not 1E? wtf?!?

Kingmaker IS Pathfinder Classic.

It's OUT OF PRINT!!! seriously man... and fans of the 1E VIDEOGAME are plenty justified in wanting a 1E printed version of all the additional 1E VIDEOGAME content!

Calling it the “1E Videogame” is attaching too much gravitas to it than it deserves in this regard. Like Neverwinter Nights 1 & 2 it had an altered ruleset that would make it playable as a video game. So we have the Kingmaker game, not the 1E Kingmaker game.

As some one who played and enjoyed the video game, everything about the 3.5/PF1 engine held it back. It is telling that its only true audience is from PF1 players with heavy criticism from most other corners on its mechanics. I can't imagine trying to play that game if I hadn't had over a decade of experience with its source material, it is arcane as all hell.

CRPG also cut out a lot of stuff <_<

Like, it already made changes to chapter 1, but after that, ESPECIALLY after Varnhold Vanishing, it pretty much changes so much that I'm kingmaker player who hasn't been spoiled about anything from RPG version besides "Oh the leader dude's name is x and there is y" since the context has been that radically changed.

• I didn't use it, but I read some great ideas on the boards about a growing monster kingdom as a motivator and foil to the PC's fledgling kingdom.

Given the changing status for goblins in 2E PF, a goblinoid or 'monster' party looking to recreate the goblin 'Kingdom of Zog' could be an interesting version of that, competing with the PC party in one of the surrounding areas off the map of where the PCs are in getting their kingdom up and running.

Local tribes of kobolds, boggards and lizardfolk could perhaps organize into a short-lived sort of 'Coldblood Combine' that as quickly falls into a rancorous civil war (as the demon-worshipping boggards prove incapable of playing well with others in the long term) that threatens the borders of the PCs kingdom when refugees begin showing up uninvited.

GM PDK wrote:

TOZ please.

You're gonna blame ME for splitting fans? Really?

in his defense, your avatar does look incredibly suspicious.

5e is just getting a bestiary, it seems like? That level of support can be assembled pretty quickly by PF1 fans, since the monster stats are freely available. I'm not sure where Paizo's rules stand on posting the stats of the NPCs/bosses for conversion purposes, though?

In any case, cool! I'm excited for this. If I were to pick a PF1 adventure that I'd like to see converted to PF2, this would be it.
- A cool concept that would be tricky to repeat in a new campaign.
- Early in PF1, so they don't have to cut out any classes. (Strange Aeons without the Occult Adventures classes would be unsatisfying.)
- We'll be getting early kingdom-building rules in PF2.
- Also, just getting to start things off with an extra AP for PF2, one that's well-rated and is getting a second pass.

- Early in PF1, so they don't have to cut out any classes. (Strange Aeons without the Occult Adventures classes would be unsatisfying.)

- We'll be getting early kingdom-building rules in PF2.

That touches on two concerns I have...

Hopefully the subsystem is tested enough to not have to be fixed later on down the road.

QuidEst wrote:

- Early in PF1, so they don't have to cut out any classes. (Strange Aeons without the Occult Adventures classes would be unsatisfying.)

- We'll be getting early kingdom-building rules in PF2.

That touches on two concerns I have...

Kingmaker was the second AP to be written for the Pathfinder system and there were some places where it showed that NPCs/enemies should've been other classes but those classes didn't exist yet. (The Old Beldame and Irovetti immediately spring to mind).
The kingdom and mass combat rules in the AP were a test and then they were redone for Ultimate Campaign. I'm a little concerned the same thing will happen with PF2E. (But that being said, other than Build Points being 4,000 gold everything else might be able to stay the exact same, or close enough).

Hopefully the subsystem is tested enough to not have to be fixed later on down the road.

Fair enough on that first one. I can live with "probably no worse on it than Kingmaker's first pass."

With regards to the kingdom and mass combat rules, if they're changed later it'll be with added "testing" from the AP. I'm just happy to get something to work with before we hit a core book dedicated to it.

So, Paizo didn't like being called DnD 3.75, then makes PF2. Now with the almost the offset of PF2, you tie yourself, yet, once again to DnD, again being 5.25?! Good luck, really.

While I am disappointed we will probably not see a 1E Hardcover for Kingmaker I understand why.

Those saying it was done for previous APs. It was done because those were for 3.5. editions of the material. We already have Kingmaker for Pathfinder 1E granted they are out of print yet we have them in PDF. With PDFs nothing can ever go out of print. It is the same thing I tell fellow gamers when they complain that out of print D&D and other rpgs material in print is sold at truly outrageous prices on Amazon and KIjji.

Their is a cheaper format if one refuses to use it it is not on Paizo or any other rpg company to keep rpg supplement XYZ in print. Paizo and other rpg have to do what is good them as a company first, the fans second. This was something I expected once they announced PF 2E. That being said I understand why some are unhappy about the decision yet if Paizo had not allowed the downloading of 1E PDFs then one can say it would truly be unfair.

Given how rpg cycle usually worls it was only to be expected that a new edition would be released. If your new to the hobby I can understand being surprised at the new edition. If one is a gamer of 10+ years then their is no reason to be surprised. New editions have happened to other rpg companies and their respective rpgs. Why think that somehow Paizo would be different.

I can only assume 1E in therms of profit is no longer meeting Paizo required target. The company needs profit to pay bills and staff. A properly run business company cannot keep producing a product that keeps losing money. I probably will not switch over to PF 2E yet never say never

So, Paizo didn't like being called DnD 3.75, then makes PF2. Now with the almost the offset of PF2, you tie yourself, yet, once again to DnD, again being 5.25?! Good luck, really.

Huh?

Seems you're trying to equate providing a 5e campaign bestiary with PF2 becoming a 5e evolution.

Again, huh?

For your information:

Legacy of Fire (the fourth adventure path Paizo published for the 3.5 rules) is almost sold out.
There are only limited quantities of books 2 & 3 available.

Just saying.

For your information:

Legacy of Fire (the fourth adventure path Paizo published for the 3.5 rules) is almost sold out.
There are only limited quantities of books 2 & 3 available.

Just saying.

And at a blistering pace, too. It only took an entire edition. ^_^

Though now that you mention it, Carrion Crown is almost entirely sold out, is about to be from a previous edition, and has significant elements in need of correction and tightening...

:thinking:

Already sold on a Carrion Crown hardcover as well.

I'd be in for a 1e hardcover! A 2e hardcover is probably a "no, thanks" for me. If it doesn't happen, though, I get why--even though I'll find the decision awfully disappointing.

It's an interesting time to be crowdfunding for 2e though. 2e really wasn't looking good. Granted, it should be much better in production, but we haven't seen it and won't see it by the time we've given our money to Paizo. Getting a large speculative investment in a new system whose playtest was painful at best is an odd choice. I would have expected Paizo to show off the shiny new post-feedback 2e first, that way they're not fighting against as much underinformed grar!

Already sold on a Carrion Crown hardcover as well.

Hard same!

TOZ wrote:

GM PDK wrote:

TOZ please.

You're gonna blame ME for splitting fans? Really?

Sometimes, yes. But I do that as well. People tend to pick sides on all kinds of issues. It's a flaw inherent to humans.

I see your point though: not really your fault that 2E happened...

What I can't stand is the blind cheerleadingism that tends to emerge, oftentimes from the mouth or fingers of relatively unknown actors who suddenly feel brave enough to tell loyal fans that 1E was crap and that they were waiting for 2E to finally 'find their voice'.

PS: You're not what I consider a 'relatively unknown actor'.

I am not sure that I like the phrase 'blind cheerleadingism' -- and not just because 'cheerleadingism' is awkward. It implies that one group of fans is in the wrong but cannot see it, while the other sees the truth. Let's try to avoid language like this. The fact is that there are cool things to be found in both PF1 and PF2, and for that matter, 5E. While this edition change is full of uncertainty, let's not malign others for their game system preferences.

As for myself, I'm cautiously hopeful that PF2 will have some things that I will enjoy -- like that 3 action economy system -- and adventures and stories that will lure in new voices and old alike. Since it sounds like PF2 is quite different from what we saw in the Playtest, I'm hoping that we all try it before giving up on it entirely.

Hmm

Kind of weird for the amount of 1e fans requesting retro-support, I haven't seen any specific response to the only constructive proposal Paizo has returned, namely the possibility of a straight reprint compilation. Kind of feels like it's more about the noise than the outcome. Anyhow, I still think between existing 1e Bestiaries and original 1e AP monster, NPC & skill/kingdom-check stats that are OGL, retro-conversion of the new updated AP won't be that hard, and people can share their work on retro-converting the new additional content, either here on the boards or elsewhere. AFAIK Non-commercial use doesn't even have to worry about avoiding proper names "IP" etc.

While the focus seems to have been on Bestiary/monsters and NPCs, it occured to me that Skill checks and other mechanics interacting with PC stats also need conversion, whether to 5e or 1e, to account for different system assumptions. In case of challenges hinging on 2e-specific mechanics, the paradigm of the challenge may even need to be tweaked to work in other system.

Not quite sure how that fits into the 5E product, which is cast as "Bestiary" to be used alongside 2e AP Hardcover... Including alternate NPC stats isn't out of line, but getting into the AP's environmental/situational skill checks (or kingdom checks etc) doesn't directly fit in a Bestiary format, although it could be another chapter? An "adventure index" giving replacement DCs/mechanics tied to page # references might work? Or just leave it to each system's generic rules, depending on level, situational details, etc? Stuff like Kingdom checks that aren't core part of 1e or 5e would probably need specific treatment, even if given via formula and not specifying every single event DC.

I sought out the Kingmaker print copies once it became obvious it wasn't going to be collected for Pathfinder. Those requesting retro-support won't find it, so best to track down your own copies or plan on converting the collection yourself.