Help Paizo Celebrate Kingmaker's 10th Anniversary!

I have played PF for 10 years (one of my players went from elementary student kid to a college student. I was never able to buy the adventure paths until recently as a group of friends asked me to run them kingmaker.

I have tried tracking the books down, and it has been next to impossible. I have printed the pdf files. And I just can't believe 5e is getting a kingmaker book while we who have supported paizo for so long get nothing except get pushed to pf2. I know pf2 will be a great game, but I am not just gonna abandon the game I have bought so many books and which my players love.

I am not feeling the love Paizo and I hope you reconsider and print Kingmaker as a hardcover for PF.

Yep, I have the Rise of the Runelords and Curse of the Crimson Throne collected editions on my desk right next to the Kingmaker softcovers, but as soon as it said "Pathfinder 2" my interest level went to zero.

Hey Jess...didn't know you were on this forum. LOL (this is Max) Did you try the full playtest for 2E? Our group loved the changes that made it through the process.

Honestly, after playing the CRPG, I am not so interested in playing the AP as PnP anymore. The computer game is pretty good (after most bugs got ironed out, finally), but since I have seen all the content there, I'd rather spend my time on a new campaign full of surprises instead of a slightly revised known AP.

But that's just me. I wish Game On Tabletop success with their project - especially if they plan a pawn set. ;)

And to be fair, I appreciate Paizo's move to allow 3PP such a project at all. Who knows what good will come from this attitude during the next years...

Kingmaker for Pathfinder First Edition PDFs are readily available without the need for a crowdfunding.

But they are not in hardcover book format which is what I and many others would like to get out grubby hands on.

Hi! Hello. Um I might have a few ideas for content to add to an updated compilation edition of Kingmaker that have been loved by many groups over the years ;-)

Stolen Land Toolbox
Hargulka’s Monster Kingdom
Dudemeister’s Varnhold Vanishingly Additions and Changes
Dudemeister’s Blood for Blood
Irovetti’s Clockworks Kingdom

I also have Legendary Beasts that stalked the Stolen Lands as optional bosses for each region. My additions and changes are very much expansions on the original spirit of the adventures and I would love to help bring them to the next edition of Pathfinder and 5e! :-)

I would also love to see the Kingdom Building Rules become way more multiplayer friendly.

I'll be in to get a 5e version. I'm into 5e, but Golarion is my favorite setting.

For stretch goals or add-ons I'd love to have maps. Useful PC friendly maps.

This is my first post on any thread, and I have had my account for many years now. This may be my only post I make, so hopefully the message gets to the important folks. I never felt I needied to post due to Paizo ticking along doing just a fine job producing reasonable content for the majority of us.

I will also admit I am not interested in PF2e. I genuinely tried through the whole Playtest to enjoy the new ruleset, as indicated by the collector's edition, but my reasons list a little long for what I am hoping this post will be about.

To point, it is with extreme displeasure and distaste that I must watch as you decide to gate a book so overwhelming sought after by your community to a ruleset still being developed (And controversial), and to your direct competition's ruleset. Why the complete disregard for all of your work you have done thus far for the company? Why for a different publishers game instead?

I understand your decision to move forward with a new ruleset, I carry no problems with our differing opinions on what we like. But this decision doesn't seem very well considered and may completely alienate your company from a group of fans that have remained your backbone for many years. It's extremely common for third party developers, which have a far smaller budget, to build multiple rulesets into a text.

I sincerely hope you reconsider this release. You would do your company a service to give the last remaining first edition fans a final "cherry-on-top" for the most amazing ruleset of our time.

Tyler V

What the what?! A whistle blower who actually exists, and was not made up by me for purposes of this post, just handed me a stack of top secret internal documents from Paizo's marketing team. They show that the projected profits from a 1e hardcover compilation of Kingmaker are ELEVENTY BILLION DOLLARS!!!! There's even a footnote. Here's what it says:

"As shown above, the profits from printing a hardcover book for an edition we no longer support would be massive. The only thing that would generate more profits would be to continue supporting 1E indefinitely. However, this would go against our core philosophy of hating our customers and driving ourselves out of business."

(I must confess, I would actually buy a 1e hardcover Kingmaker compilation. I had forgotten that 2e was a thing when I saw this headline, and was sad when I realized this was a different beast. I'm optimistic I will someday love this beast, but I'm still learning about it, and right now, we're at the Netflix sans chill level of our relationship. I'm sad for you as well, you edition warriors, who you also love this 1e beast that doesn't and won't exist. I hope that you learn to love the new beast, or maybe find some different beast, or maybe otherwise find a different windmill to tilt at in anger and defiance. I honestly wish you the best, and hope that you are able to find peace and happiness in a world that doesn't supply the things you want most.)

Well, Pathfinder was the system I chose when I needed something to get our blended family of five children together to do something fun as a family. It got me back into gaming after several years hiatus and has provided many hours of fun and family bonding. The first AP we ever played together was Kingmaker! My kids, age 8-13 at the time LOVED the exploration and being rulers of their own Kingdom!

I love 1e and I will keep playing it probably for the rest of my life just like I do AD&D, but I am REALLY excited about 2e and can't wait play and run it! I also can't wait to get a Hardcover version of the first AP we played as a family!

This makes me VERY happy!

Thank you Paizo!

Yaaaaaaaaaay!

Kingmaker is my favorite AP, though I've never played it all the way through - happy to see the updated version will not just be a retread of the version I already own, especially since my crew is probably done with PF1 and will likely head over to either PF2 or D&D5e.

And, getting my hands on the new version will allow me to sell the 1e Kingmaker soft covers I already own, so that'll free up at least one copy for those of you who haven'tbeen able to get it. ;)

I'm confused as to what this is?

Is it a Kickstarter by a third party to publish a Kingmaker compilation, am I reading that right?

I have DMed Kingmaker to a couple of groups (and played in other), and this is what I would like to see in a compiled, updated version:

* Write out the Brevoy connection as much as possible in the beginning (or capitalize on it and include elements of it during the AP). Players get the impression Brevoy's political situation will be important in the adventure, but it never actually gets dealt with. In this Game of Thrones climate, that is bound to happen.
* Dudemeister's contributions further enhance the whole story (the kobold dinner in Book 2 is great foreshadowing).
* A rework of Varnhold - the combination of tight maps and Large Redcaps is just a nightmare and Vordakai's dungeon is underwhelming.
* A streamlining of the Kingdom Building system. The whole system was way too clunky, took too much time and always left a couple players bored out of their minds. Further additions made it way more complicated than needed. It needs something to encourage and highlight player-made organization, like arcane schools, knighthood orders, cleric churches, etc.
* A more seamless connection between the books. 5 to 6 was such a nightmare - absolutely NO Kingdom Building stats given to Pitax made this an enormous pain.

It was a great news. Kingmaker is one of a kind among the APs.

I guess two thing is necessary:

1) Multisystem stats - PF1e, PF2e and D&D5e. As stated that 5e could have some stats blocks, the why not chunck all the relevant versions into it. As good 90s magazines. (No, i won't ask for GURPS tho)

2) ERRATAS and Plus! There are plenty of little (or some greater) modifications posted in Kingmaker forumsto improved the experience like more foreshadow of the main plot earlier; more in number and in complexity of side quests related to the main plot; more opportunity pre-Stolen Lands in Restov; well caracterized NPCs (the groups of other charters and random NPC); Kingdom/Settlement/Building administration rules reworked to balance; Mass Combat rules reworked to balance; Some alternative ends.

This is gonna ROCKs!

I'm guessing Second Darkness and Legacy of Fire will never be converted to 1st Edition Pathfinder then. Nutbunnies. :(

I'm guessing Second Darkness, Legacy of Fire, Council of Thieves will never be converted to 1st Edition Pathfinder then. Nutbunnies. :(

Council of Thieves has always been for 1st Edition Pathfinder. It was actually the first Pathfinder AP.

Council of Thieves is originally PF1 already, isn't it?

If there is a 1e kingmaker, I will donate at least 100 bucks. Kingmaker was that important to me. I will buy multiple copies for myself and my players.

No 1e? Not interested, I am afraid.

Aww. I was super interested in the expanded content, further fleshed out NPCs and hardcover treatment.
But for 2nd ed? Not interested at all.

I'm of mixed feelings about this. First off, I'm likely to buy it because I like Golarion's lore more than either the 1e or 2e ruleset. But I do empathize with all the people (myself included) who were very vocal over the past several years in pleading for a 1e Kingmaker hardback. We were told time and again there was no way for this to happen (much like we were told time and again there were no ways other things would happen which eventually came to pass). To not have a 1e option, frankly, it hurts. And after all, wasn't it Jason who said waaay back in the beginning that it would be so easy to convert from 1e to 2e?

And I do get Paizo's current mantra that the forum represents only a small portion of the overall community and that they can't make business decisions based on the boards. (Though that begs the question "Why even have the boards and interact with us if we are so meaningless?". Personally, my time on the boards has been considerably less after that 2e revelation). And I do understand that they are small potatoes compared to WotC. (Although Savage Worlds is apparently the #3 RPG out there and they are small potatoes compared to Paizo. But they seem to be doing ok, coming out with a new ruleset, without the angst oozing through the Paizo community).

All this leaves me very confused and conflicted. In a way this is good, because I feel that I've been freed from the Paizo shackles - when 1e was their focus I bought their products exclusively - coming up on ten years now. Now our group is rethinking Paizo in general (maybe we play Savage Worlds) and we haven't played 1e since the playtest. We've played a half dozen other games and we've considerably broadened our horizons. If that's Paizo's goal - woot! But I suspect it is not. I kinda think they want us to keep buying their products, after all.

We're wavering at this end. 1e was great, but after the shock and the numbness have worn off, we're still interested in 2e, but it's not an automatic go-to like 1e was. I think showing us the rules and new things we can do with 2e is a much better use of space and time than 1e. If you're going to do a "kingdom building" AP for 2e, make it somewhere else - do something NEW. Don't rehash 1e to try to twist peoples' arms into 2e. It never works and only further fractures your fanbase.

I'm confused as to what this is?

Is it a Kickstarter by a third party to publish a Kingmaker compilation, am I reading that right?

Nope, it's a crowdfunding campaign by Paizo to determine how large the Kingmaker hardcover should be and how many supporting accessories we should produce to support it.

Game On Tabletop is a crowdfunding platform focused on tabletop games. While the people behind the platform are also in the business of making books (they're our French-language partners, Black Book Editions), they are simply hosting the crowdfunding campaign for us.

This will be a Paizo-produced book just like the Rise of the Runelords and Curse of the Crimson Throne books were before it. We're working with established publishers with experience in the 5E space for the Kingmaker Bestiary to spearhead the conversion and development, but even that will be published by Paizo.

I think this is fantastic!
It'll be a while before I jump over to PF2E as I still have a few 1st edition APs to run, and I've already ran Kingmaker for my group, but I'll be buying this anyways because I love the campaign and I've wanted a hardcover collection of it even though I have the original soft covers.

I'd be disappointed if some of Dudemeister's changes/additions weren't included, especially what he did with the centaurs giving the quests in the book rather than random people asking the rulers to do random things. (Having the centaurs give the quests as a way to build trust with them makes WAY more sense than random NPC villagers wanting the rulers to go and get random items for them.)

Game On Tabletop is a crowdfunding platform focused on tabletop games.

One more site to register at, who will have my email address to send junk email to, who will have access to my credit card information, who I don't know from a hole in the wall to be able to trust them.

Why not Kickstarter like every normal crowdfunding? Why make things more complicated?

I hope this comes to 1e, as absolutely none of my groups are interested in 2e.

I am also in this position. I have already invested so much into 1e and at this point in my life I don't see myself investing into 2e. None of my friends seem interested in 2e either.

Plus considering that I don't actually have all of the Kingmaker adventure path (I only have the first chapter) a remake edition of Kingmaker would be a good opportunity to get an adventure that I have wanted to get for a while.

I came to say I wanted this. I stayed to read Sebastian's comments.

Hi! Hello. Um I might have a few ideas for content to add to an updated compilation edition of Kingmaker that have been loved by many groups over the years ;-)

Stolen Land Toolbox
Hargulka’s Monster Kingdom
Dudemeister’s Varnhold Vanishingly Additions and Changes
Dudemeister’s Blood for Blood
Irovetti’s Clockworks Kingdom

I also have Legendary Beasts that stalked the Stolen Lands as optional bosses for each region. My additions and changes are very much expansions on the original spirit of the adventures and I would love to help bring them to the next edition of Pathfinder and 5e! :-)

Enthusiastically seconded :-)

There's also some great ideas for subplots in the Kingmaker CRPG that I would totally plug into this anniversary release.

Now, as someone who's still running a multiyear Kingmaker campaign... I will buy this for sure, but will I convert my players to 2e mid-campaign? I didn't think I would, but 2e is really promising. Choices, choices...

That just amazing! I wasn't expecting this one. I hope there're good additions to the hardcover!

Provide stats for both 1e and 2e, and I will happily pay $100.

2e only = $0.

It's ironic if they'll be more willing to support a competitor's 5E than their own 1E product.

I hope it's some miscommunication... 2E, 5E (for their competitors!!!) but not 1E? wtf?!?

One of the things that I would love to see in it if not in another book is an article covering the First World and maybe the Eldest, so that we can continue our campaigns in high level travels to the Realm of the Fey.

There's a First World Campaign Setting sourcebook IIRC.

I have zero interest in PF2e. Just came here to say that I’ll be happy to buy anything 1e that Paizo publishes, even “legacy” reprints and repackages.

P.S.—Paizo doesn’t seem to realize the hole they’ve dug for themselves. They overtook D&D because they had a superior product. Their plan with 2e seems to be to again invent a “superior” product, but that’s a losing battle — that’s not where their focus should have been this time, plus from all appearances, they focused on the wrong criteria. (The game they came up with will never be as intuitive as D&D5e or as versatile as PF1e, and they created as many problems as they solved with regards to gameplay.) Instead, they should have doubled-down on the ruleset and history they already had, establishing themselves as the go-to game for hardcore gamers. They could have introduced just a few streamlined rules to improve gameplay (such as three actions per turn, or modified magic wand rules) without doing a hard reboot of the system. As it stands, the new edition will have its initial moment of buzz, but will never really gain ground on its competitor, and eventually, Paizo’s only viable business strategy will be to “reach across the aisle” and make Golarion-based books for D&D.

Samy wrote:

Provide stats for both 1e and 2e, and I will happily pay $100.

2e only = $0.

It's ironic if they'll be more willing to support a competitor's 5E than their own 1E product.

I hope it's some miscommunication... 2E, 5E (for their competitors!!!) but not 1E? wtf?!?

1E is legacy product now. You support the current product with new content.

I won't say no to a stretch goal including 1E version however.

Zaister wrote:

Kingmaker for Pathfinder First Edition PDFs are readily available without the need for a crowdfunding.

PDFs for Rise of the Runelords are all available.

Yet, Rise got an anniversary hardcover.

Same with Curse of the Crimson Throne.

I see zero reason why Kingmaker shouldn't get a 1e anniversary hardcover, as that was the addition it was released for.

But, also have a conversion for 2e PF.

They certainly are available! For D&D 3.5. The big thing about those two hardcovers was the conversion to the Pathfinder rule set. Kingmaker already exists for PF1, and that was something that was making it less likely to ever get a hardcover. I'm extremely happy that this will get both an update and a hardcover. If you really want a Kingmaker hardcover, you can send your soft covers to a bindery and they'll be happy to do it for a reasonable cost. I've done this with comics to great results, and am considering doing it for some Adventure Paths and supporting material.

Samy wrote:

Provide stats for both 1e and 2e, and I will happily pay $100.

2e only = $0.

It's ironic if they'll be more willing to support a competitor's 5E than their own 1E product.

I hope it's some miscommunication... 2E, 5E (for their competitors!!!) but not 1E? wtf?!?

Its not 'for their competitors'. Its making money from their competitor's success (and marketting themselves to a potential new audience).

I hope theres a 1E stretch goal, but it's not surprising it's not on the ground floor - paizo arent publishing PF1 stuff anymore.

you can send your soft covers to a bindery

And how few of us have softcovers? They've been OOP and unavailable for ages. The making of a hardcover compilation should have been *automatic* with each AP, and then they could have had the same treatment as the pocket guides, or set up with a POD service (like the other-game 2e books are!)

captain yesterday wrote:

I'm confused as to what this is?

Is it a Kickstarter by a third party to publish a Kingmaker compilation, am I reading that right?

Nope, it's a crowdfunding campaign by Paizo to determine how large the Kingmaker hardcover should be and how many supporting accessories we should produce to support it.

Game On Tabletop is a crowdfunding platform focused on tabletop games. While the people behind the platform are also in the business of making books (they're our French-language partners, Black Book Editions), they are simply hosting the crowdfunding campaign for us.

This will be a Paizo-produced book just like the Rise of the Runelords and Curse of the Crimson Throne books were before it. We're working with established publishers with experience in the 5E space for the Kingmaker Bestiary to spearhead the conversion and development, but even that will be published by Paizo.

So, it's basically like Kickstarter? I might get it when (or if) it's released, but I'm not crowdfunding it, sorry!

Samy wrote:

Provide stats for both 1e and 2e, and I will happily pay $100.

2e only = $0.

It's ironic if they'll be more willing to support a competitor's 5E than their own 1E product.

I hope it's some miscommunication... 2E, 5E (for their competitors!!!) but not 1E? wtf?!?

Kingmaker IS Pathfinder Classic.

This is tangential to the original topic (which I am excited about!), but does anyone know who has the rights to the Savage Tide adventure path? It was published in DUNGEON magazine back when Paizo was producing DRAGON and DUNGEON.

Paizo did put out a compilation of the Shackled City AP, but I believe that was while they were still doing the magazines.

I guess what I'm really saying is that some day I'd love to have a compilation of Savage Tide as well, but it seems unlikely that one will ever be produced. Oh, and while we're at it, how about one for Age of Worms as well?

I would strongly support making this available for 1E. I bought both the RotRL Anniversary Edition and the Curse of the Crimson Throne hardcover despite owning the original AP volumes because: a) They are beautiful books; b) James Jacobs gave everything a second pass, having taken into account countless discussions on the forums, and the end product is much improved; c) Having everything in one place is very convenient. Having NPCs updated to Pathfinder from 3.5 was a nice bonus, but was not the sole reason for purchase.

Provide stats for both 1e and 2e, and I will happily pay $100.

2e only = $0.

It's ironic if they'll be more willing to support a competitor's 5E than their own 1E product.

I think if you already own the 1e of an AP, you should get a very special deal to get the 2e version -- or at least stats.

Cori Marie wrote:

you can send your soft covers to a bindery

And how few of us have softcovers? They've been OOP and unavailable for ages. The making of a hardcover compilation should have been *automatic* with each AP, and then they could have had the same treatment as the pocket guides, or set up with a POD service (like the other-game 2e books are!)

It absolutely should not have been automatic. Much of Paizo's operating income is based on subscriptions and individual AP sales. If it were automatic that each path would get a hardcover, there would be no reason for people to buy the individual volumes. They've told us this many times, and have told us all the pieces that have to fall into place to get a hardcover.

1. The AP has to be either fully out of print or mostly out of print - check
2. There has to be enough time passed where people that did purchase the individual books won't feel like they were misled or ripped off - check
3. There should be a reason to do it other than just compiling it. For both CotCT and RotRL this was an edition update. We now have that opportunity with Kingmaker as well.

I understand the books have been out of print for awhile and are hard to get. But if you really want a hardcover PF1, I gave you an option. It might be expensive, but its what you have available. Maybe that will change if they see the demand for it, maybe it won't.

GM PDK wrote:

Samy wrote:

Provide stats for both 1e and 2e, and I will happily pay $100.

2e only = $0.

It's ironic if they'll be more willing to support a competitor's 5E than their own 1E product.

I hope it's some miscommunication... 2E, 5E (for their competitors!!!) but not 1E? wtf?!?

Its not 'for their competitors'. Its making money from their competitor's success (and marketting themselves to a potential new audience).

I hope theres a 1E stretch goal, but it's not surprising it's not on the ground floor - paizo arent publishing PF1 stuff anymore.

I support Paizo making material available for 5e. While I don't plan on playing 5e and do plan on continuing to play Pathfinder 1e for quite some time, I think supporting 5e is a good strategic move. Good for Paizo -- and ultimately good for us as Paizo customers.

I'd continue to argue that reviving and revitalizing Pathfinder 1e is still possible, but if both 1e and 2e flounder-- entering the 5e market will give Paizo a chance to recover or open a new path to grow into if all else fails.

If all else fails, a 5e Paizo would be better than none at all.

I really liked the little softcover book that came out when PF online came out. It was called "Thorn"-something, maybe? I could care less for the part about the Goblinworks game development, but the rest is pure gold. So many hooks in there and lots of little points about the village and its residents. That book was a total sleeper hit for me. I'd like to see this again for the online version of Kingmaker. Even if the stat blocks are in another format, I'll still buy it if it's as good as its predecessor.

I have played PF for 10 years (one of my players went from elementary student kid to a college student. I was never able to buy the adventure paths until recently as a group of friends asked me to run them kingmaker.

I have tried tracking the books down, and it has been next to impossible. I have printed the pdf files. And I just can't believe 5e is getting a kingmaker book while we who have supported paizo for so long get nothing except get pushed to pf2. I know pf2 will be a great game, but I am not just gonna abandon the game I have bought so many books and which my players love.

I am not feeling the love Paizo and I hope you reconsider and print Kingmaker as a hardcover for PF.

PF1 edition of the AP appears to be available in PDF format. I know that's not the answer you want, but since I started using PDFs almost 2 years ago -- I never went back!

It's much easier to search a PDF and when I run games I typically have about 5 of them open at the same time. Much better than a stack of books -- and much cheaper.

5E support out of Paizo?

Can't say I ever expected to see that.

Was really interested when I thought it was going to be a 1E collection a la Rise of the Runelords and Crimson Throne.

Literally no interest in a 5E/2E product at this time.

I'll be in to get a 5e version. I'm into 5e, but Golarion is my favorite setting.

For stretch goals or add-ons I'd love to have maps. Useful PC friendly maps.

Yes, VTT friendly maps, if they don't exist.

If all else fails, a 5e Paizo would be better than none at all.

Frankly, a 5e Paizo would basically be no Paizo at all.

Really?

I'm not THAT attached to Golarion to keep playing in it in 5e.

I don't see what that has to do with with 5e meaning Paizo ceases to exist.