Gearing Up!

Friday, May 4, 2018

In Monday's blog, we talked about weapons and all the plentiful options you have when you're picking those. So let's stay in the Equipment chapter for the Pathfinder Playtest Rulebook and take a look at armor, other gear, and everything else having to do with items!

Don Your Armor!

Armor's job is to protect you from your enemies' attacks. Your character can have proficiency in light armor, medium armor, or heavy armor (or, in some cases, none of the above). Most classes are only trained in their armor at first, though some martial classes gain better proficiency at higher levels. In Pathfinder First Edition, many types of armor were effectively obsolete because you could just buy a better type, but for Pathfinder Second Edition, we've made a few new adjustments to make each type a little different.

A suit of armor has many of the same statistics as in Pathfinder First Edition, but now each one also gives a bonus to your TAC (Touch Armor Class). For instance, studded leather gives a +2 item bonus to AC and +0 to TAC, whereas a chain shirt gives a +2 item bonus to AC and +1 to TAC, but it is heavier and noisier. That last bit comes from the noisy trait, one of a small number of traits some armors have to reflect their construction and effect on the wearer. Armor also has a Dexterity modifier cap (which limits how much of your Dexterity modifier can apply to your AC); a check penalty that applies to most of your Strength-, Dexterity-, and Constitution-based skill checks; a penalty to your Speed; and a Bulk value. You'll balance these variables to pick the armor that's best for you.

As you adventure, you'll find or craft magic armor. Weapons and suits of armor alike can be enhanced with magical potency runes. For weapons, a potency rune gives an item bonus on attack rolls and increases the number of damage dice you roll on attacks with the weapon. For armor, the potency rune increases the armor's item bonuses to your AC and TAC and gives you a bonus to your saving throws! For instance, studded leather with a +3 armor potency rune (a.k.a. +3 studded leather) would give you +5 AC, +3 TAC, and +3 to your saves. You can also upgrade the potency later, etching a +4 armor potency rune onto that armor to increase its bonus. You can even upgrade the potency of specific armor (and weapons) so you can hold on to your celestial armor at higher levels. If you don't wear armor, not to worry! Your bracers of armor give you a bonus to AC, TAC, and your saves without requiring you to clad yourself in a clunky metal box. They might not protect you quite as well, but maybe that trade-off is worth it to your wizard or monk!

Illustrations by Wayne Reynolds

Shield Yourself!

You've probably seen mention of shields in previous blogs, announcements, and broadcast play sessions. To gain the benefits of a shield, you have to spend an action to raise it, which then gives you a bonus to AC and TAC (+1 for a light shield or +2 for a heavy shield) for 1 round. Your character has proficiency in shields just like she does with armor, and when using a shield, you use the lower proficiency rank of your armor or shield to calculate your Armor Class.

Shields don't have potency runes. Instead, you might pick up a shield made of a durable material like adamantine or craft a magic shield that catches arrows, reflects a spell back at its caster, or bites your enemies!

Fill Your Backpack!

The Equipment chapter also includes all sorts of other gear you might want on adventures, from rope to tents to musical instruments to religious symbols. Many of these items are required to perform certain tasks, like thieves' tools. The new system of item quality makes it pretty straightforward to figure out how tools work. For example, you need thieves' tools to pick a lock or disable many traps. Normal thieves' tools let you do this normally, expert-quality tools give you a +1 item bonus on your check, and master-quality tools give you a +2 item bonus on your check. Now what if you get stuck without your tools and need to improvise? Well, if you can scrabble something together, you've created a poor-quality set of tools, which gives you a -2 item penalty (much like the penalty for having an proficiency rank of untrained in a task). The same thing might happen if you had to turn vines into improvised rope or use an empty chest as a drum for an improvised musical instrument!

Take a Load Off!

Not everything you can purchase is adventuring gear. Cinco de Cuatro wouldn't be complete without some luxuries like a bottle of fine wine or renting an extravagant suite! You might even rent an animal to ride about town. Of course, an extravagant lifestyle can have a high cost, and the chapter includes costs of living per week, month, or year so you can accurately budget your lifestyle decisions.

Switch It Up!

One of the squidgy parts of Pathfinder First Edition we wanted to clear up with the redesign is how holding, wielding, and stowing items work, particularly switching how many hands you're using for an item. Now, drawing an item from a pouch, changing your grip from one-handed to two-handed, or detaching a shield from your arm all require the Interact action. We've codified the rules for many of the basic things you do with items so the other rules interface with them cleanly. That [[A]] code you see there indicates this is an action, and will be a lovely icon in the final rulebook!

[[A]] Interact

Manipulate

You use your hand or hands to manipulate an object or the terrain. You grab an unattended or stored object, open a door, or do some similar action. You may have to attempt a skill check to determine if your Interact action was successful.

The equipment chapter also covers the full rules on item quality and on Bulk, plus a section on how items and Bulk work for creatures of different sizes.

Now you have a basic rundown of the gear in this book. We'll dive deep into magic items at a later date. Looking at what you see here, what sort of useful, peculiar, or silly things do you think your character will spend their silver pieces on?

Logan Bonner
Designer

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Tags: Pathfinder Playtest Wayne Reynolds
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Don't worry Ninja. You can totally wear 6 bracers, 5 different goggles, 7 belts, 4 pairs of gloves and 10 boots. After all, if the rules don't say you can't, then you totally must be able to do. What a great game PF2e is shaping up to be.

(This is actually directed at people who keep trotting out the tired old line that there are no body slots. I fully expect the rules to provide guidelines to stop the above which means there will be body slots).


Ninja in the Rye wrote:

Oh, our old friend Bracers of Armor AKA forcing monks to forfeit and item slot to benefit from one of their class features, is back. Goody. Why can't we just give Monks and casters "armored robes" that provide a +0 or +1 bonus to AC and call it a day?

I continue to be baffled by shields costing an Action to use, even more so now that it's confirmed that you can't even increase the AC bonus the Shield provides.

Ditto for the ability to add your shield AC to Reflex saves against area blast attacks being gated as a LEVEL 14 Fighter ability. A +2 (at most) highly situational bonus to Reflex saves that costs an action to use is a high level ability that takes 14 levels of training to unlock? Really?

As stated above, item slots aren't an issue for the most part (within reason).

Shields letting you use a reaction to reduce damage received by its hardness is a fantastic reason to raise them, in addition to the AC. Also, as noted in the blog, they can still be magically enchanted to do stuff like reflect spells back at the caster or bite foes. That and making them out of better metals like Adamantine will probably also add to the hardness and therefore the damage reduction.

Plus, you know Paladins will probably get great class feats for shields since they're likely the armor-focused class we've heard about.

Liberty's Edge

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There were great rules in 3.5 Living Arcanis for lifestyles, with clear disavantages for spending zero money on it. I look forward to what PF2 will give us

Why is Logan talking about silver pieces ?
Is sp the standard for mundane while gp is the standard for magic ?


MerlinCross wrote:

Hello required Magic/Runic armor(Holy zen do you guys just like making similar terms/design ideas? Runes that buff your stats but are/are not Magic? We'll see) I'm not looking forward to my newly saved cash from losing 2 of the six into you. Also how does Resonace work here(Magic armor might not use it but Runic Magic armor well...)

Also neat bit about shields. Err one question. Buckler?

Again, the post says you "find or craft magic armor," not that you can buy it. And the only economy commentary that we see is cost of living type expenses... I might be reading too much into it, but I think gold will have less impact on acquiring these items.


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Deadmanwalking wrote:
Ninja in the Rye wrote:
Oh, our old friend Bracers of Armor AKA forcing monks to forfeit and item slot to benefit from one of their class features, is back. Goody.
To reiterate, item slots no longer exist.

Item slot gone. Cool okay we get it.

Question Deadmanwalking; how many Bracers can you wear or expect people to be able to wear? I mean I expect only one pair of Bracers like I expect one pair of gloves or one Pair of boots or one head piece or goggles etc. The restricted "Slot" is gone but if you can only wear one, what's the bleeding difference because I'd love to know?

Really in practice only Slot restriction removed was Rings.


Captain Morgan wrote:
MerlinCross wrote:

Hello required Magic/Runic armor(Holy zen do you guys just like making similar terms/design ideas? Runes that buff your stats but are/are not Magic? We'll see) I'm not looking forward to my newly saved cash from losing 2 of the six into you. Also how does Resonace work here(Magic armor might not use it but Runic Magic armor well...)

Also neat bit about shields. Err one question. Buckler?

Again, the post says you "find or craft magic armor," not that you can buy it. And the only economy commentary that we see is cost of living type expenses... I might be reading too much into it, but I think gold will have less impact on acquiring these items.

Great. One person per group is now fully required to be a crafter. Or at the mercy of GM.

It still doesn't make me feel good about fully needing Magic armor now. Oh and I'm somewhat confident that crafting will still take a level of gold or some restrictions


You could totally wear bracers on your biceps, as shin guards and if you get big enough ones you could wear them on your thighs. That makes total sense. Also if alchemists still grant an extra arm you could stick both of them one that's!

(Sad thing is, I know players who would argue this. It's how we got Mr Ed the talking horse animal companion. The player was told that character wasn't welcome anymore).


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MerlinCross wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:
MerlinCross wrote:

Hello required Magic/Runic armor(Holy zen do you guys just like making similar terms/design ideas? Runes that buff your stats but are/are not Magic? We'll see) I'm not looking forward to my newly saved cash from losing 2 of the six into you. Also how does Resonace work here(Magic armor might not use it but Runic Magic armor well...)

Also neat bit about shields. Err one question. Buckler?

Again, the post says you "find or craft magic armor," not that you can buy it. And the only economy commentary that we see is cost of living type expenses... I might be reading too much into it, but I think gold will have less impact on acquiring these items.
Great. One person per group is now fully required to be a crafter. Or at the mercy of GM

From what we have heard, it's literally one skill feat anyone can take to craft magic items. Each character gets 10 of those at least. If one party member can't spare one skill feat, I don't know what to tell ya. Also, do you just not want magic items? Because you've complained about

1) Magic items costing gold.
2) Magic items not costing gold.
3) Choices resulting in some mathematical best option that players are "forced" to take.

If the third complaint is inevitable, as you have expressed in the past, how would you actually handle magic items?


John Lynch 106 wrote:

You could totally wear bracers on your biceps, as shin guards and if you get big enough ones you could wear them on your thighs. That makes total sense. Also if alchemists still grant an extra arm you could stick both of them one that's!

(Sad thing is, I know players who would argue this. It's how we got Mr Ed the talking horse animal companion. The player was told that character wasn't welcome anymore).

There's even been an example of this for decades. ;)

Liberty's Edge

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John Lynch 106 wrote:
Evilgm wrote:
Why is this stupid?

Because I don't want to feel like I'm playing World of Warcraft?

Evilgm wrote:
Sandpoint is less likely to have craftspeople as good as you'll find in Magnimar

Sure. I mean, it doesn't have to be true, but it can be based on a smaller population meaning there's less chance of having people who comprise a small percentage of the overall population (just like you will be more likely to find a Wayang in Absalom then you would in Sandpoint).

Evilgm wrote:
and you may need to travel to Absalom to find the best weaponsmiths.

Makes sense.

Evilgm wrote:
That seems like proper world design to me, though I suppose if you force the pejorative wording you did you can make any idea sound bad, because everyone knows the best way to scare people off is imply anything works like in an MMO.

Now here's how World of Warcraft differs from tabletop RPGs (at least the ones I play in, maybe you do keep a strict WoW-esque design to your campaigns). Level 1 characters are just as likely to start a campaign in Sandpoint as they are in Magnimar as they are in Absalom. If we're removing WBL to gate off high level equipment and instead relying on geographical restrictions, it means your level 1 characters can't start out the game in Absalom. They ALWAYS have to start at Sandpoint (or Sandpoint level regions). Once they get to Paragon tier they won't be able to travel to Absalom, they'll first have to go to Magnimar. And then only once they hit epic tier will they be able to get to Absalom.

If that's how your games work then you'll not have any problem. That's now how my games work though.

I don't like WBL. I would love to see it removed. But having a separation of certain quality items into discrete zones is a worse solution. So that is why I trust Paizo won't be doing it.

I really don't get where you are going with this argument. You are really arguing that a tabletop game with a live GM will inherit the limits of a computer game without a GM simply because it use a quality method for the item production?

During the middle ages and renaissance Italy had several centers of excellence for the production of weapons and armors. Generally the shops where in the big cities (Milan, Florence) but some where near the mines, like Gardone Val Trompia, where even today people from all over the world send knife blades to be decorated. Outside Italy you have several locations that are famous for weapon production, like Toledo, so it is only natural to have centers of excellence in the game word and rural locations where (generally) no one know how to produce a high quality weapon. It is a very different craft from making farm implements.
But that don't give any reason for limit the locations accessible to new characters. And it is normal that higher quality weapons cost more. Full plates where extremely costly and had to be made for the specific individual. That is not something a young, inexperienced guy will have unless he come from a rich and important family.
WBL can be adjusted, but it reflect reality. Our characters are essentially mercenaries and only extremely successful mercenaries had and have advanced equipment.


John Lynch 106 wrote:

You could totally wear bracers on your biceps, as shin guards and if you get big enough ones you could wear them on your thighs. That makes total sense. Also if alchemists still grant an extra arm you could stick both of them one that's!

(Sad thing is, I know players who would argue this. It's how we got Mr Ed the talking horse animal companion. The player was told that character wasn't welcome anymore).

I've seen minmaxers or just clueless argue over what can be worn on a tail or any creature with extra arms yes(Tieflings are the worst if only most common, Kitsune is next)

So yeah I fully expect some physical limiting factor to come up or at least enforced. Some sort of "you can only wear 1 item or pair per area".

I wonder what we could call such a system.

(No seriously if I see someone argue about their Kitsune nine tails version later down the line in PF2, I'm losing it)

Liberty's Edge

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mach1.9pants wrote:
So lumbering around in a chain suit makes you harder to touch? That's weird, wrong and crazy - but probably works better in the game! Maybe a half way house would only having proficiency and magic bonuses count against touch AC?

It is only a change in a paradigm that had already changed in the past. In the earlier editions of the game there wasn't a touch AC. Touching the shield of someone isn't the same thing as touching his flesh and saying that saying that effects that require to touch a person have a problem affecting someone if you only touch the armor covering him is at least as reasonable as saying that all your equipment is within your aura and what matter is touching the aura, i.e. the equipment.

Actually in reality there are plenty of things that will do nothing if they hit your protective garment but can be dangerous or deadly if they touch your flesh (contact poison, contaminants, burning liquids, etc.).

Liberty's Edge

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John Lynch 106 wrote:

Don't worry Ninja. You can totally wear 6 bracers, 5 different goggles, 7 belts, 4 pairs of gloves and 10 boots. After all, if the rules don't say you can't, then you totally must be able to do. What a great game PF2e is shaping up to be.

(This is actually directed at people who keep trotting out the tired old line that there are no body slots. I fully expect the rules to provide guidelines to stop the above which means there will be body slots).

There are almost certainly going to be such guidelines, yes. However the absence of item slots per se make it possible to skirt them at least a little pretty easily (two pairs of bracers seem reasonably doable, for example).

And, more importantly, given the lack of item slots I'd be shocked if you can't just have particular items as whatever kind of item you like (ie: I have a Ring of Armor not Bracers). I mean, if there are no slots then there's no cost change for switching slots or any of that sort of thing to worry about.

MerlinCross wrote:

Item slot gone. Cool okay we get it.

Question Deadmanwalking; how many Bracers can you wear or expect people to be able to wear? I mean I expect only one pair of Bracers like I expect one pair of gloves or one Pair of boots or one head piece or goggles etc. The restricted "Slot" is gone but if you can only wear one, what's the bleeding difference because I'd love to know?

As I said above, I'd expect you can manage a couple, and I'd expect switching items to a different 'slot' to be casually doable.

Also, who says there's a single other listed magic bracer? Or that bracers (like armor, apparently) don't have slots for multiple enchantments?

MerlinCross wrote:
Really in practice only Slot restriction removed was Rings.

And amulets. You can wear as many of those as you like, too.

Liberty's Edge

Cat-thulhu wrote:
Im not sure i now understand TAC, i wouldve thought lighter armour would add more? TAC bonuses higher on lighter armour, a medium with equivilent bonuses, heavy armours with lower TAC bonuses. Clearly im not understaning what the TAC represents. Can anyone elaborate for me.

Stopping the attack from touching you and limiting it to touch your armor?

Is someone cast poison and touch my armor (or on the inside of the armor), the patch of poison appear on the outside of the armor, not inside my flesh and blood.
If someone cast a spell that burn whatever he touch metal armor will become hotter but don't burn (and you generally have other garments under it so most of the damage is prevented). If he cast a spell that generate electricity probably either the spell or the armor have a trait that reduce the defense of metal armor (and even that is not necessarily true as the electrical discharge follow the path of lesser resistance and normally metal conduct electricity better than flesh).
So armor will reasonably protect you from touch attacks, possibly with traits (in the armor or the spell) that modify the AC against specific attacks.


Captain Morgan wrote:
MerlinCross wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:
MerlinCross wrote:

Hello required Magic/Runic armor(Holy zen do you guys just like making similar terms/design ideas? Runes that buff your stats but are/are not Magic? We'll see) I'm not looking forward to my newly saved cash from losing 2 of the six into you. Also how does Resonace work here(Magic armor might not use it but Runic Magic armor well...)

Also neat bit about shields. Err one question. Buckler?

Again, the post says you "find or craft magic armor," not that you can buy it. And the only economy commentary that we see is cost of living type expenses... I might be reading too much into it, but I think gold will have less impact on acquiring these items.
Great. One person per group is now fully required to be a crafter. Or at the mercy of GM

From what we have heard, it's literally one skill feat anyone can take to craft magic items. Each character gets 10 of those at least. If one party member can't spare one skill feat, I don't know what to tell ya. Also, do you just not want magic items? Because you've complained about

1) Magic items costing gold.
2) Magic items not costing gold.
3) Choices resulting in some mathematical best option that players are "forced" to take.

If the third complaint is inevitable, as you have expressed in the past, how would you actually handle magic items?

Given that we have Quality now, I don't see why I can't expect Skill feat Master and Skill Feat Legenary versions. Never mind what you'd need to take the skill feat anyway.

1 and 2 are connected with the current complaint, lemme give my reasoning. Any gold I would have saved not buying a Cloak or Ring because they are removed now gets funneled into Magic armor that again I'm more than likely going to be expected to pick up now. So I really don't see the removal of 2 expected items as a good thing if most the things revolved around them get shuffled over into one big item now.

Do I want magic items? Yeah sure. I like all my Alchemist crafting/extract stuff, anything that lets me get an extra action even if it's just a potion, items that buff my class effects(Hexs, Channel, Studied Target, Ki, etc), items that don't give big bonus but "Here's a cool thing you can do now, figure out how to use it."

Know what I dislike? Here's the item list. Here's the 6 or so we are expecting you to get because everyone gets them. And the power scale expects you to as well. Did I want Cloak of Res +2? No? Well too bad for me, GM/AP had a hunch that my numbers would be around X so I gimped myself when I picked the "fun" option. There a reason I don't play Soctiey where I am and why I'm so hesitant to try other groups besides my own. And God bless them but sometimes you need new blood or game. And when I keep seeing the same things again and again, I'm unlucky or there's something else.

As for how I would do items, I dunno. Maybe remove most the big flat general bonuses for a start? Oh wait they did that with Auto Progress or am I just being insane?

There I go again though, ranting.

Liberty's Edge

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I believe Resonance is the limiting factor now rather than item slots

Liberty's Edge

Tectorman wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
Tectorman wrote:

Okay, so Bracers of Armor will presumably be covering the magical enhancement bonus for the Monk that potency runes are applying to conventional armors. Presumably, the Monk will have a class feat/feature allowing him to protect himself unarmored to the same-ish extent that regular armor provides. So how will he be getting the potency rune equivalents for his unarmed attacks? Provided by items like prayer beads or hand wraps? An innate class feature?

Also, one thing I really didn't like was how certain magical effects were consigned to armor. For example, Glamored is a really nifty little enchantment just for the sake of being able to easily illustrate how you want your character to look. Unless you're a Monk. With the exception of a very obscure non-armor magic item hidden away in an Eberron book, there was no way to achieve this same level of aesthetic customization for a Monk character.

Is there anyway we can have an armor-filler type of outfit? Something that armor-based magic effects can be applied to but otherwise doesn't provide an armor benefit at all?

Hat of disguise?

"You make yourself—including clothing, armor, weapons, and equipment—look different. You can seem 1 foot shorter or taller, thin, fat, or in between. You cannot change your creature type (although you can appear as another subtype). Otherwise, the extent of the apparent change is up to you. You could add or obscure a minor feature or look like an entirely different person or gender."

For 1,800 gp you can slightly change your appearance (add a mole to your calf, as an example) and completely redo your dress.

The description for the Hat of Disguise also says essentially that the hat can be changed into another something worn on the head as part of the disguise. I never read that as "including no headwear of any kind", and that's the kind of aesthetic freedom I'm looking for. Glamored assumes the end result is still something looking like clothing but...
Hat of Disguise wrote:
This his apparently normal hat allows its wearer to alter her appearance as with a disguise self spell.

Read the spell, it include what you wear.

Glamored armor is limited to the armor, the hat can change the appearance of any garment.


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Deadmanwalking wrote:
two pairs of bracers seem reasonably doable, for example

I have to say it doesn't to me: that sounds like wearing a shield over your shield...


graystone wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:
two pairs of bracers seem reasonably doable, for example
I have to say it doesn't to me: that sounds like wearing a shield over your shield...

One pair of bracers on your wrists, another pair on your ankles (anklets).

Any more than that is really stretching the imagination though...


Deadmanwalking wrote:
John Lynch 106 wrote:

Don't worry Ninja. You can totally wear 6 bracers, 5 different goggles, 7 belts, 4 pairs of gloves and 10 boots. After all, if the rules don't say you can't, then you totally must be able to do. What a great game PF2e is shaping up to be.

(This is actually directed at people who keep trotting out the tired old line that there are no body slots. I fully expect the rules to provide guidelines to stop the above which means there will be body slots).

There are almost certainly going to be such guidelines, yes. However the absence of item slots per se make it possible to skirt them at least a little pretty easily (two pairs of bracers seem reasonably doable, for example).

And, more importantly, given the lack of item slots I'd be shocked if you can't just have particular items as whatever kind of item you like (ie: I have a Ring of Armor not Bracers). I mean, if there are no slots then there's no cost change for switching slots or any of that sort of thing to worry about.

MerlinCross wrote:

Item slot gone. Cool okay we get it.

Question Deadmanwalking; how many Bracers can you wear or expect people to be able to wear? I mean I expect only one pair of Bracers like I expect one pair of gloves or one Pair of boots or one head piece or goggles etc. The restricted "Slot" is gone but if you can only wear one, what's the bleeding difference because I'd love to know?

As I said above, I'd expect you can manage a couple, and I'd expect switching items to a different 'slot' to be casually doable.

Also, who says there's a single other listed magic bracer? Or that bracers (like armor, apparently) don't have slots for multiple enchantments?

MerlinCross wrote:
Really in practice only Slot restriction removed was Rings.
And amulets. You can wear as many of those as you like, too.

I'm thinking back to a costume I had to wear for a play that had braces. I can't see wearing two at once. Itd be like gloves or worse. As for the switching slots thing, what the idea that magic items don't kick in until 24 hours or something? Honest question, how often is that waved? For some big stat items maybe(X of Y stat hello) maybe but AC or some skill items? And what we can flavor the item into what we want? Cool I guess, kinda do that now at times but eh. Can't fault you there.

I'm a bit iffy on guessing if Braces can have more than one effect, as that leads to all items having effects easily. Though I'm not picturing maybe simlair powers(like bracers that give you a bonus to disarm and defense against disarm) I'm saying more radicle powers. And if there's enchantment slots well stupid combos inbound.

Also, who's to say there's only on magic Bracer? Did I read that right? I mean sure lets do it. Unlikely but if it happens, any non Armor class will pick them up and if they don't stack, armor classes will skip.


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Neo2151 wrote:
graystone wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:
two pairs of bracers seem reasonably doable, for example
I have to say it doesn't to me: that sounds like wearing a shield over your shield...

One pair of bracers on your wrists, another pair on your ankles (anklets).

Any more than that is really stretching the imagination though...

Anklets are feet/boot items. Bracelets/bracers are wrist.


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The Raven Black wrote:
I believe Resonance is the limiting factor now rather than item slots

And I think it's a bad limiting factor but Gods above and Demon lords below know I've beat that horse to death. Then raised it to beat it some more.

Is raising a Skeleton only to destroy it an Evil act of not? (Humorous observation don't take at fulface value)

Dark Archive

Ssalarn wrote:
ParcelRod wrote:
Talek & Luna wrote:


How do you figure? Its virtually nothing unless PF2 math assumes bounded accuracy which they have said is not the case. I just see a feat such as two weapon defense making shields a poor choice and that is not good.
Likely to do with the way Crits work in PF2. +10 AC excess or a nat 20 roll. That +2 is small only at a quick glance.
Very much this. With the +/-10 rules, if someone can successfully hit you on an 8, then they have about a 15% chance of getting a critical hit against you, the same as if they were using a rapier in the current system. You raise your shield, suddenly they only crit you on a natural 20 (like turning their rapier into a pointy club) and you get some amount of damage reduction in the event they do hit, which is also now 10% less likely to happen at all. The current system is stuffed with stackable static modifiers that distort the value of small bonuses, but a new system with a tighter math framework makes those bonuses consistently relevant across the life of the game without creating a numerical arms race.

True it's replacing the "numerical arms race" in Pathfinder with a "numerical arms treadmill"


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MerlinCross wrote:
Given that we have Quality now, I don't see why I can't expect Skill feat Master and Skill Feat Legenary versions. Never mind what you'd need to take the skill feat anyway.

Seems more likely to me that your ability to craft will be dependent on your proficiency level. We actually know very little about how that improves-- I've been assuming you do it using the PF2 equivalent of Skill Ranks instead of Skill Feats.

Frankly, 3 skill feats over the course of a career still seems awfully cheap to me. (I think it's safe to assume you won't be able to craft Legendary Armor at low levels.) If that's even the case. We know other feats scale.

Quote:
1 and 2 are connected with the current complaint, lemme give my reasoning. Any gold I would have saved not buying a Cloak or Ring because they are removed now gets funneled into Magic armor that again I'm more than likely going to be expected to pick up now. So I really don't see the removal of 2 expected items as a good thing if most the things revolved around them get shuffled over into one big item now.

This is only true if the cost of PF2 armor is the same as PF1 armor+ring+cloak. That's a rather large assumption to make given we have no frame of reference for what anything will cost in the new system.

Quote:
Do I want magic items? Yeah sure. I like all my Alchemist crafting/extract stuff, anything that lets me get an extra action even if it's just a potion, items that buff my class effects(Hexs, Channel, Studied Target, Ki, etc), items that don't give big bonus but "Here's a cool thing you can do now, figure out how to use it."

I'm with you in that I like magic items to be interesting rather than just give flat bonuses.

Quote:
Know what I dislike? Here's the item list. Here's the 6 or so we are expecting you to get because everyone gets them. And the power scale expects you to as well. Did I want Cloak of Res +2? No?

Well, the list has been reduced to 2 so far. And I feel like those two are a little too baked into the genre by now. If you are playing a swords and sorcery game, magic weapons and magic armor are kind of staples. And the most intuitive thing for a magic weapon to do is make you better at killing things, while the most intuitive for armor is to stop you from being killed.

Quote:
Well too bad for me, GM/AP had a hunch that my numbers would be around X so I gimped myself when I picked the "fun" option.

I really don't think armor and weapons are going to prevent you from buying the fun stuff, too. Assuming we can still buy magic. The explanation on proficiency interacting with crafting and each 5 levels representing a tier bump in power makes me think that access to magical items will wind up being gated more by level than gold. If you have a +1 weapon at 5th level and won't be able to use/craft/purchase a +2 weapon until level 10, it seems silly to hoard gold for five levels.

Quote:
As for how I would do items, I dunno. Maybe remove most the big flat general bonuses for a start? Oh wait they did that with Auto Progress or am I just being insane?

They did, and I was a fan. The biggest problem was that it didn't play super nice with a few things such as weapon enchantments like Flaming. But if they implement a similar attunement system and split the difference, buying a +5 weapon won't do much in the hands of a level 1 character. The level 1 character won't have the resonance/attunement/skill/whatever to utilize it.

Liberty's Edge

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graystone wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:
two pairs of bracers seem reasonably doable, for example
I have to say it doesn't to me: that sounds like wearing a shield over your shield...

I can see it. Depending on size you could wear one on your upper arms and another on your lower arms. Plus the legs thing.

graystone wrote:
Anklets are feet/boot items. Bracelets/bracers are wrist.

Except slots no longer exist.

MerlinCross wrote:
I'm thinking back to a costume I had to wear for a play that had braces. I can't see wearing two at once. Itd be like gloves or worse.

As mentioned, one on the upper arms and one on the legs seem plausible.

Though really, this starts getting silly, so I'd bet on the 'can switch what physical form the item has' being standard.

MerlinCross wrote:
As for the switching slots thing, what the idea that magic items don't kick in until 24 hours or something? Honest question, how often is that waved? For some big stat items maybe(X of Y stat hello) maybe but AC or some skill items? And what we can flavor the item into what we want? Cool I guess, kinda do that now at times but eh. Can't fault you there.

The 24 hour thing has been officially removed in PF2, replaced with Resonance.

MerlinCross wrote:
I'm a bit iffy on guessing if Braces can have more than one effect, as that leads to all items having effects easily. Though I'm not picturing maybe simlair powers(like bracers that give you a bonus to disarm and defense against disarm) I'm saying more radicle powers. And if there's enchantment slots well stupid combos inbound.

I honestly think this option is unlikely, but it seems possible given that this is apparently how armor works now.

MerlinCross wrote:
Also, who's to say there's only on magic Bracer? Did I read that right? I mean sure lets do it. Unlikely but if it happens, any non Armor class will pick them up and if they don't stack, armor classes will skip.

I'm not saying that's the case, I'm saying we don't know and it's certainly as likely as any of the worst case scenarios proposed.


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Icons are a great idea. I will request that if they are color -codes the shapes be at least as distinct as the shapes of the icons in Starfinder. I'm fact, if they aren't very distinct by shape it might be the biggest complaint I'll have for PF2. I'm partially colorblind, and while I have nothing against also color coding systems, when it is just that or only a half-baked system differentiates icons beyond color I quickly lose interest in the color-coding. It's one of the strongest reasons I don't buy card games before seeing example cards or preview play sessions. Mind you, I haven't seen any hint that they will or won't be color coded, but I figure I'd mention this just in case.


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Deadmanwalking wrote:
Except slots no longer exist.

Having slots and being able to alter the basic size/shape of the item in question are 2 different things. A bracer just isn't going to fit on a leg nor an upper arm: it's like trying to have a human wear halfling sized armor.

If we're throwing out base items all together and you can enchant any item with any ability, great! That's not been hinted at at all from what I've seen.


Fuzzypaws wrote:
So now that I have had the time to read through again, I'm returning to a thought I've posted before... Why is touch AC still even its own thing?

Yes, me too, as they have made flat-footed a condition, please drop Touch AC, as well, as it now especially seems unnecessary and clunky.

Not too keen on the Noisy trait, just sounds lame.

As for how AC is calculated, as others have suggested, will it be something like:

10 + Level + Proficiency + Item Bonus + Dex modifier?

So, a 5th level wizard with a 14 Dex and no amor, would have an AC: 15 = 10 + Level (+5) + Proficiency (Untrained -2) + Dex mod (+2)?

And a 5th level fighter with a 14 Dex and a chain shirt, would have an AC: 20 = 10 + Level (+5) + Proficiency (Expert +1) + Item bonus (+2) + Dex mod (+2)?

I do not like the potency rune thing, at all, or the whole quality/magic not stacking thing, have never dug that.

Shields, I thought shields gave you a static AC bonus, and you could raise one as an Action for an increase, now you must take an action to gain any AC from a shield?

Liberty's Edge

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graystone wrote:
Having slots and being able to alter the basic size/shape of the item in question are 2 different things. A bracer just isn't going to fit on a leg nor an upper arm: it's like trying to have a human wear halfling sized armor.

This is just about exactly as implausible as a 5'2" person with a reedy build wearing the same bracer as a 6'8" person built like a truck, and yet that's legal.

graystone wrote:
If we're throwing out base items all together and you can enchant any item with any ability, great! That's not been hinted at at all from what I've seen.

Well, you could already do it in PF1, it just got a bit wonky due to how item slots and crafting worked. I'd be shocked if it wasn't made notably more accessible.


Other takeaways for me:

Touch AS makes sense in the new edition, both thematically and mechanically.

Shields aren't getting+X anymore. But special materials and abilities are still options. I hope special materials aren't prohibitively expensive like +X's, so I could reasonably have a main shield of adamantine, backup silver and living steel shields, and a few wooden/steel ones just in case.


Diego Rossi wrote:
Actually in reality there are plenty of things that will do nothing if they hit your protective garment but can be dangerous or deadly if they touch your flesh (contact poison, contaminants, burning liquids, etc.).

Exactly, and touching someone's flesh whose in plate, is a lot harder than if they're naked.


^Yes, but if the spell can conduct through the plate armor to them (Shocking Grasp being the most obvious example), then it actually isn't harder. Spells like this should be vs Touch AC. Spells that don't conduct through armor should be against Normal AC.


UnArcaneElection wrote:

^Yes, but if the spell can conduct through the plate armor to them (Shocking Grasp being the most obvious example), then it actually isn't harder. Spells like this should be vs Touch AC. Spells that don't conduct through armor should be against Normal AC.

Ah, okay, new AC type: Conductive AC!


UnArcaneElection wrote:

^Yes, but if the spell can conduct through the plate armor to them (Shocking Grasp being the most obvious example), then it actually isn't harder. Spells like this should be vs Touch AC. Spells that don't conduct through armor should be against Normal AC.

I can easily see something like Shocking Grasp (or just things with the Electricity tag in general) having additional rules like a +1/2/3 to hit Touch AC based on the enemy wearing Light, Medium or Heavy armour. I still think it is a worthwhile distinction to have Touch AC and Regular AC be different, purely from not having to write out what is basically Touch AC each time it would come up and allowing it to be a second nob that can be tweaked in balance.


Voss wrote:
Hmm. Silver standard sneaking in there at the end.

Yeah I caught that too. This does give more support to the idea that they might be moving from a Gold Piece based economy to a Silver Piece based one. Likely repricing everything that's currently in GP in an equal amount of SP and adjusting treasure accordingly.


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Doktor Weasel wrote:
Voss wrote:
Hmm. Silver standard sneaking in there at the end.
Yeah I caught that too. This does give more support to the idea that they might be moving from a Gold Piece based economy to a Silver Piece based one. Likely repricing everything that's currently in GP in an equal amount of SP and adjusting treasure accordingly.

Nice, something else I housesruled long ago into PF/D&D, all gp prices for items, starting wealth, etc, are in silver. Makes gold and platinum pieces a big deal, which they should be. Copper gains value.


Ecidon wrote:


True it's replacing the "numerical arms race" in Pathfinder with a "numerical arms treadmill"

It's fascinating to watch the evolution of PF to 4e and already seeing the complaints about PF2e that we saw lobbied at 4e which directly led t4e to evolve into 5e.

4e's biggest problem is that it exposed the math too much which made how everything was balanced glaringly obvious and ultimately unsatisfying. Unfortunately PF2e's math is even more exposed than 4e's was.


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I get Potency Runes not applying to BOTH Armor and Shields for balance reasons, but IMHO that goal can also be serviced by allowing Potency Runes to Armor AND Shields but saying THEY DON'T STACK.

I'm saying this because P1E has archetype concepts built around Barbarians wearing NO armor but allowed to wear a Shield. Even for characters who wear armor, it could be interesting to allow putting the Rune on their Shield instead of armor... While there could be shared 'core' Rune bonuses, there could be Armor-exclusive and Shield-exclusive ones as well (like 3.x/P1E Armor Enchantments). So depending on playstyle somebody could favor Armor or Shield for Potency Runes, or own both and choose to "attune" to different ones on different days (or however often they are allowed to swap, this seems like ability amenable to frequency increase by Feat etc).


JoelF847 wrote:


I might understand the math of the system wanting to not have this bonus work on both armor and shields, but don't see why that would actually work. What about if you weren't wearing armor, but used a shield? Still no magic to improve its AC bonus?

Good point. If the developers decided it is better not to increase the AC bonus by those runes, they could've at least increase the damage mitigation property of shields instead.


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Mark Seifter wrote:
Logan confirmed slots for property runes just a few minutes ago (and that you get more for higher-quality weapons/armor).

Not really thrilled by this. Feels a bit 'gamey' for my taste. And getting even further from Pathfinder's heritage.

I can see the upside though, with runes being potentially transferable. It does deal with the problem where you find a +3 Holy Vorpal Weedwhacker but the paladin who could really use that is specialized in Battle-Spork. So he could move the runes to his weapon instead of bagging it and selling it so he can afford to upgrade his Battle-Spork. An elegant weapon for a more civilized age.

Odd question I have about these +N runes. Do they still go to +5? It seems like many other features are being standardized on +3 being max. Also is there still a +10 total bonus equivalent? Or is the limit whatever you can cram into those rune sockets?


UnArcaneElection wrote:

^Yes, but if the spell can conduct through the plate armor to them (Shocking Grasp being the most obvious example), then it actually isn't harder. Spells like this should be vs Touch AC. Spells that don't conduct through armor should be against Normal AC.

In PF1, Shocking Grasp already gives you a +3 Bonus to hit the opponent if they’re wearing metal armor.

I think spells that sensibly would “go through” armor will include some kind of bonus to offset the armor’s built-in Touch AC.

Otherwise, for spells like Ray of Frost or Harm, it makes some sense that the armor could be thick enough to absorb the impact before it touched the person inside.


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Captain Morgan wrote:

Again, the post says you "find or craft magic armor," not that you can buy it.

Well, maybe you can find magic armor in a shop.


IMO buying magic items isn't the problem. It's selling them that is. Selling magic items for favors resolves that problem.


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Could someone please clarify this for me?

Logically, the +1 to hit from an Expert Quality Dagger and the +1 to hit from a Potency Rune must stack.

An Expert Quality Dagger gives the weapon a +1 to hit and has 1 slot to affix a Rune into. You need to have Expert Quality to have 1 Rune Slot (presumably 2 at Master, and 3 at Legendary).

A Potency Rune gives the weapon a +1 to hit and 1 extra damage die. A Rune can only be affixed to a weapon that has at least 1 available slot.

Therefore, an Expert Dagger with a Potency Rune gives the wielder +2 to hit and deals 2d4 Damage.

If the bonuses overlap (so only +1 to-hit), then there is no reason to write down that the Potency rune gives a to-hit bonus. Assuming Master has 2 slots and Legendary has 3, you can’t exceed the Quality bonus from the weapon with potency runes. So a Master Quality Dagger with 0, 1, or 2 Potency Runes would still always give a +2 to hit.

UNLESS! Master Quality gives 3 Rune Slots and Legendary Quality gives 5. Which would align neatly with PF1’s design where weapons could go to +5 and then have +5 worth of Weapon Qualities added.

Liberty's Edge

We know that weapons go up to +5, so it makes sense to have to-hit bonuses built in even if they don't stack.

Exactly how that works remains a mystery.

Shadow Lodge

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber
tivadar27 wrote:

Okay, question for you. Just listened to the Twitch feed and they mentioned how to compute AC. Let's compare this to how we compute attacks:

* AC is 10 + Proficiency + Stat + Armor Bonus + (Item Quality/Magic)
* Attack is 1d20 + Proficiency + Stat + (Item Quality/Magic)

I can't see how this doesn't lead to some huge issues. Assuming two characters of the same level, one of whom is progressing offensively, the other defensively, at the same rate, the discrepancy of *Armor Bonus* in defense essentially means that the *FIRST* attack by the offensive guy has a <50% chance to hit the defensive guy, and no chance of +10 critical. After that, it gets worse...

Is there some part of this equation I'm missing here... This seems fundamentally broken. I was assuming that AC might be 5 + Armor + ... to account for the extra addition here, but if it's not, I can't see how this works out.

Are you sure both attack and AC include the addition of your level? I got the impression AC used the armour bonus instead of level.

Of course this may also problematic since it means heavy armours are awesome until level 9 or so, then after this point your attack bonus will exceed the static armour bonus and continue to exceed by an even greater margin as you level up.

Liberty's Edge

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Cat-thulhu wrote:
Are you sure both attack and AC include the addition of your level? I got the impression AC used the armour bonus instead of level.

We're pretty sure, yeah. The Proficiency rules are fairly clear that everything you have Proficiency in adds your level. Also, the math tends not to make sense if you don't do it this way. Also, a 1st level Dex 18 Rogue in Studded Leather has AC 17, so they're getting +1 over Dex + Armor from somewhere.

Really, every bit of evidence we have points to this being the way it works.

Shadow Lodge

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber

Worldnt that +1 be their proficiency bonus with light armour? That is expert training in light armour perhaps?


It was already designer-confirmed earlier in the blog thread.

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