Gearing Up!

Friday, May 4, 2018

In Monday's blog, we talked about weapons and all the plentiful options you have when you're picking those. So let's stay in the Equipment chapter for the Pathfinder Playtest Rulebook and take a look at armor, other gear, and everything else having to do with items!

Don Your Armor!

Armor's job is to protect you from your enemies' attacks. Your character can have proficiency in light armor, medium armor, or heavy armor (or, in some cases, none of the above). Most classes are only trained in their armor at first, though some martial classes gain better proficiency at higher levels. In Pathfinder First Edition, many types of armor were effectively obsolete because you could just buy a better type, but for Pathfinder Second Edition, we've made a few new adjustments to make each type a little different.

A suit of armor has many of the same statistics as in Pathfinder First Edition, but now each one also gives a bonus to your TAC (Touch Armor Class). For instance, studded leather gives a +2 item bonus to AC and +0 to TAC, whereas a chain shirt gives a +2 item bonus to AC and +1 to TAC, but it is heavier and noisier. That last bit comes from the noisy trait, one of a small number of traits some armors have to reflect their construction and effect on the wearer. Armor also has a Dexterity modifier cap (which limits how much of your Dexterity modifier can apply to your AC); a check penalty that applies to most of your Strength-, Dexterity-, and Constitution-based skill checks; a penalty to your Speed; and a Bulk value. You'll balance these variables to pick the armor that's best for you.

As you adventure, you'll find or craft magic armor. Weapons and suits of armor alike can be enhanced with magical potency runes. For weapons, a potency rune gives an item bonus on attack rolls and increases the number of damage dice you roll on attacks with the weapon. For armor, the potency rune increases the armor's item bonuses to your AC and TAC and gives you a bonus to your saving throws! For instance, studded leather with a +3 armor potency rune (a.k.a. +3 studded leather) would give you +5 AC, +3 TAC, and +3 to your saves. You can also upgrade the potency later, etching a +4 armor potency rune onto that armor to increase its bonus. You can even upgrade the potency of specific armor (and weapons) so you can hold on to your celestial armor at higher levels. If you don't wear armor, not to worry! Your bracers of armor give you a bonus to AC, TAC, and your saves without requiring you to clad yourself in a clunky metal box. They might not protect you quite as well, but maybe that trade-off is worth it to your wizard or monk!

Illustrations by Wayne Reynolds

Shield Yourself!

You've probably seen mention of shields in previous blogs, announcements, and broadcast play sessions. To gain the benefits of a shield, you have to spend an action to raise it, which then gives you a bonus to AC and TAC (+1 for a light shield or +2 for a heavy shield) for 1 round. Your character has proficiency in shields just like she does with armor, and when using a shield, you use the lower proficiency rank of your armor or shield to calculate your Armor Class.

Shields don't have potency runes. Instead, you might pick up a shield made of a durable material like adamantine or craft a magic shield that catches arrows, reflects a spell back at its caster, or bites your enemies!

Fill Your Backpack!

The Equipment chapter also includes all sorts of other gear you might want on adventures, from rope to tents to musical instruments to religious symbols. Many of these items are required to perform certain tasks, like thieves' tools. The new system of item quality makes it pretty straightforward to figure out how tools work. For example, you need thieves' tools to pick a lock or disable many traps. Normal thieves' tools let you do this normally, expert-quality tools give you a +1 item bonus on your check, and master-quality tools give you a +2 item bonus on your check. Now what if you get stuck without your tools and need to improvise? Well, if you can scrabble something together, you've created a poor-quality set of tools, which gives you a -2 item penalty (much like the penalty for having an proficiency rank of untrained in a task). The same thing might happen if you had to turn vines into improvised rope or use an empty chest as a drum for an improvised musical instrument!

Take a Load Off!

Not everything you can purchase is adventuring gear. Cinco de Cuatro wouldn't be complete without some luxuries like a bottle of fine wine or renting an extravagant suite! You might even rent an animal to ride about town. Of course, an extravagant lifestyle can have a high cost, and the chapter includes costs of living per week, month, or year so you can accurately budget your lifestyle decisions.

Switch It Up!

One of the squidgy parts of Pathfinder First Edition we wanted to clear up with the redesign is how holding, wielding, and stowing items work, particularly switching how many hands you're using for an item. Now, drawing an item from a pouch, changing your grip from one-handed to two-handed, or detaching a shield from your arm all require the Interact action. We've codified the rules for many of the basic things you do with items so the other rules interface with them cleanly. That [[A]] code you see there indicates this is an action, and will be a lovely icon in the final rulebook!

[[A]] Interact

Manipulate

You use your hand or hands to manipulate an object or the terrain. You grab an unattended or stored object, open a door, or do some similar action. You may have to attempt a skill check to determine if your Interact action was successful.

The equipment chapter also covers the full rules on item quality and on Bulk, plus a section on how items and Bulk work for creatures of different sizes.

Now you have a basic rundown of the gear in this book. We'll dive deep into magic items at a later date. Looking at what you see here, what sort of useful, peculiar, or silly things do you think your character will spend their silver pieces on?

Logan Bonner
Designer

More Paizo Blog.
Tags: Pathfinder Playtest Wayne Reynolds
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Liberty's Edge

Deadmanwalking wrote:
Dracoknight wrote:
Its still a lackbuster ability for level 14, by the time this comes online the dragon/caster have other more effective ways to deal with you than a mere reflex based spell.

I'm pretty sure just about everyone would take a Feat (or Talent, or whatever) in PF1 that gave +4 Reflex Saves and Evasion. That's an absurd bonus for a single Class Ability.

Now, even if this is true it's not quite brokenly good because it requires you to have spent an action on your shield to use, but if you're a shield based character you're pretty much gonna do that as often as you can anyway.

Now, it could also just be a +2, which would, IMO, be a bit lackluster, but my whole point is that we don't know.

Even if it "only" gives a +2, apparently that +2 is the equivalent of a bigger bonus with the new rules.

You would take a feat that give a +4 bonus to a reflex save in PF1?
A lot of people would say "Yes!"


Since i am too slow to write so i redo my point here.

That you are pointing on is a reflex spell ofcourse and that the shield feature might be good in the event such a spell is used. However i can garantee you that there will be Will based spells in there and thats not even about "punishing the fighter" as you put it. A wizard will be able to poke at your weakest save regardless and in that case the shield ability is lackbuster as at that point your progression in Will saves likely will be slower than the progression of the wizards caster ability.

If they dont have that dynamic in PF2 then i would be rather suprised.

Liberty's Edge

Dracoknight wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
Dracoknight wrote:
Its still a lackbuster ability for level 14, by the time this comes online the dragon/caster have other more effective ways to deal with you than a mere reflex based spell.

Really? Point us to the published 2ed Pathfinder spell that do that. Or we are speaking of 1st ed spells that will "surely and without a change be ported over to punish the poor fighter"?

An assumption based on what is avaliable in PF1 by the time you hit 7th level spells you have options that dont even need to deal with saves. Hell its not even a problem for fighter in particular but everyone that have a weak save of some kind. I am pretty sure that by 7th level you have spells that target WILL will be far more effective than spewing reflex spells against a fighter at this level, that is a given regardless of publications.

Rather by the time the spell list of PF2 comes out and it DOES NOT have such a spell i will then eat these words, i am not so naive to believe that a edition change will change the benefits of magic over muscle at this point, so you can take that tone elsewhere.

Look the PF2 level 6 spell I cited above. It is approximately equivalent to a level 4 spell of PF1.

Hightening it and casting it as a level 8 spell will give 1d6 of damage more than casting Dragon's Breath when you are a level 12 wizard.

Most spell in PF2 will have the full effect only if you critically fail the save. Read the spell blog and post in the thread and then return here with something to confute my opinion.

Liberty's Edge

Dracoknight wrote:

Since i am too slow to write so i redo my point here.

That you are pointing on is a reflex spell ofcourse and that the shield feature might be good in the event such a spell is used. However i can garantee you that there will be Will based spells in there and thats not even about "punishing the fighter" as you put it. A wizard will be able to poke at your weakest save regardless and in that case the shield ability is lackbuster as at that point your progression in Will saves likely will be slower than the progression of the wizards caster ability.

If they dont have that dynamic in PF2 then i would be rather suprised.

Based on the cleric and spells blogs:

2 or 3 spell of each level, no extra spells.
Scaling cantrips (number unknown) that will be weaker of a spell of your highest level (no useful combat example).
Spells that today hit a specific number of HD can affect higher numbers, but you need to memorize/use them in a higher spell slot.
Mind affecting spells (or at least several of them) will allow you to re-roll the save every round unless you critically fail.

It will be all roses and flowers? No, probably not. The power of spellcasters will be curbed while the narrative powers of non spellcasters increased? Probably yes.


Dracoknight wrote:

[...] that point your progression in Will saves likely will be slower than the progression of the wizards caster ability.

If they dont have that dynamic in PF2 then i would be rather suprised.

We actually know they don't have that dynamic. Everything, including Saves, progresses using the Proficiency system they've outlined, meaning it increases at the same rate as everything else, give or take a few points for proficiency increases.

Granted, there will be differences in ability scores as well, but they've also indicated that ability increases will be more plentiful while ability-increasing items are going away.


Diego Rossi wrote:


Read the spell blog and post in the thread and then return here with something to confute my opinion.

I am not here to appease your opinion, as i see it as naive. The best to confute that opinion is wait for the spell-lists to come out and see who was right instead of bickering what we both already know is unknown.

Plus the most effective spells is what prevents the fighter to reach you in the first place: Fly and Invisiblity. Shall we take a bet to see if those spells will be in PF2?

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32

Not a fan of armor adding to "touch" AC. Touch AC should be how hard it is to hit you with the dot from a laser pointer or gently tap your arm. Armor shouldn't have any effect on that whatsoever.

I'm not taking issue with armor protecting from spells and effects, I just think it should no longer be called "touch" AC in this case because a light touch no longer delivers the effect.


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Diego Rossi wrote:
14th level is not "end game", it is 2/3 of end game. If slightly less than Thor is what you wan to for 2/3 of the game, what do you want for level 20? To be able to smash Thor in a round?

For me, 14 is PAST normal end game. I can't recall the last game that saw high teens and/or 20 without it being a one shot that started there. I lucky to see a game make to past the 8-12 range.


Wait, is that a mummified bat? Hell yeah!

Scarab Sages

I don‘t understand what the drama is about. Getting the benefit of shield defense while also getting to use that third action for an extra attack or a Power Attack is good stuff. Having your cake and eating it, if you ask me. Must be liberating if you‘ve lived with only two offensive actions for 13 levels. I‘m looking forward to an effective sword-and-boarder.


Re the +2 to Reflex feat, I'm expecting it does something else as well that they didn't mention in the fighter blog, especially since they weren't giving us as much information about each element previewed with those earlier blogs. So maybe taking that feat grants the fighter Evasion on top of the +2 reaction, or maybe it lets you reflect an effect on a successful save.

But yeah, if it's only +2 to Reflex, it's embarrassingly bad compared to other high level abilities, even the Fighter's own "Iron Heart Surge."


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1of1 wrote:
Wait, is that a mummified bat? Hell yeah!

You sure that's not a familiar strap to attach your familiar to your belt? ;)


Deadmanwalking wrote:
Rob Godfrey wrote:
But saving isn't emerging unscathed, it's reducing the damage. Well unless you make it by an insane amount.

In PF2, if you have a Master level Proficiency in Reflex Saves and Save successfully you're completely unscathed (ie: successful saves count as critical successes). The same as Evasion in PF1.

Which is what I've been suggesting as a very real possibility for the Saving Shield thing since my first post on the subject.

Any indication that fighters get Master in reflex saves?

Scarab Sages

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ryric wrote:
Not a fan of armor adding to "touch" AC. Touch AC should be how hard it is to hit you with the dot from a laser pointer or gently tap your arm. Armor shouldn't have any effect on that whatsoever.

No. Touch AC is how easy it is to deliver a spell or energy to you, not how easy it is to touch you. It makes sense that some armor can conduct energy around you or interfere with the transmission of magic.


graystone wrote:
1of1 wrote:
Wait, is that a mummified bat? Hell yeah!
You sure that's not a familiar strap to attach your familiar to your belt? ;)

Kinky.


Try New Gebby Dean's Breakfast Bats!
Part of this balanced spell prep.

Liberty's Edge

Rob Godfrey wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:
Rob Godfrey wrote:
But saving isn't emerging unscathed, it's reducing the damage. Well unless you make it by an insane amount.

In PF2, if you have a Master level Proficiency in Reflex Saves and Save successfully you're completely unscathed (ie: successful saves count as critical successes). The same as Evasion in PF1.

Which is what I've been suggesting as a very real possibility for the Saving Shield thing since my first post on the subject.

Any indication that fighters get Master in reflex saves?

*sighs*

No, but they almost certainly get to Master Proficiency in armor and shields. My entire point was that if the 14th level thing let you add your shield and Shield Proficiency to your Reflex Save instead of your normal Reflex Proficiency, then it would give you a +4 to Reflex Saves and Evasion. Which would then be cool and powerful.

And that we didn't know whether it was something cool and powerful like that or something more lackluster and complaining about it was thus premature.

That was my whole point

Scarab Sages

We know that a +2 bonus is, in fact, powerful in the new game math.

Also, you definitely never add two proficiency bonuses to anything since they scale with level.

Liberty's Edge

Catharsis wrote:
We know that a +2 bonus is, in fact, powerful in the new game math.

It's solid math-wise. A bit lackluster on its own for 14th level, though.

Catharsis wrote:
Also, you definitely never add two proficiency bonuses to anything since they scale with level.

My theoretical Fighter Feat here would replace your existing Reflex Save Proficiency with the Shield Proficiency, not stack them. Though this might well be logistically difficult and not happen.

Another possibility is that the Feat adds the Shield Bonus to the Fighter's Proficiency Level, which might be easier logistically, and would still probably provide Evasion (though only a +2 bonus rather than a +4).

Liberty's Edge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Dracoknight wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:


Read the spell blog and post in the thread and then return here with something to confute my opinion.

I am not here to appease your opinion, as i see it as naive. The best to confute that opinion is wait for the spell-lists to come out and see who was right instead of bickering what we both already know is unknown.

Plus the most effective spells is what prevents the fighter to reach you in the first place: Fly and Invisiblity. Shall we take a bet to see if those spells will be in PF2?

You argue that spellcaster power will not change because "magic". You are aware that what are the core combat spells of the spellcaster has already changed in teh past? In 1st and 2nd edition of AD&D the main offensive spells of the spellcasters where those dealing damage. The job of the spellcasters was to deal damage to mobs of enemies and sometimes to specific enemies with high AC. After mifìd game the base saver where pretty good and any humanoid enemy had some AC/saves enhancing item. At the same time the spell hadn't a scaling DC, so generally there was an high chance of doing nothing with a Save or Suck spell. Enter D&D 34d edition and that paradigm has been changed. Damage dealing spells are way less relevant but SoS spells are way better.

Pathfinder 2 is at least as big as a change as that between 2nd ed AD&D and 3 ed. D&D, so there is no guarantee that the power of magic and the more powerful spells will stay the same. Actually there are signs that they will be weakened.

And the eternal "an invisible and flying wizard can't be touched". Really? You have never brought a bow with your characters? The wizard always has improved invisibility? No one in your group has ever made an archer character?
Sure, in PF1 a wizard that prepare for every contingency and has the time for casting all his preparatory spells is hard to kill. For 20 minutes. And probably has little left for offensive actions.
After those 20 minutes most of hit spells have ended and he is a guy with a handful of d6 and half BAB. Never thought of retreating and returning later? Drawing it in a close space where he will be forced to fly within your reach?

In PF2 he will have less spells and no extra duration/effects for having a higher caster level, so his mighty protection will probably last less.

Or maybe Paizo will err and make him even more powerful. It is possible, but saying "It will certainly be ultra powerful and nothing will change." is simply defeatism and unwillingness to look what was already said.

Liberty's Edge

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graystone wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
14th level is not "end game", it is 2/3 of end game. If slightly less than Thor is what you wan to for 2/3 of the game, what do you want for level 20? To be able to smash Thor in a round?
For me, 14 is PAST normal end game. I can't recall the last game that saw high teens and/or 20 without it being a one shot that started there. I lucky to see a game make to past the 8-12 range.

The AP I have played or I am playing end around level 15-16, Kingmaker reached level 18. but in the blog the Developers stated that their intention is to make the game fully viable till level 20.

In the 3/3.5 era I have played up to level 24 with a campaign that started at level 1. In the forum I see posts of people that regularly play at level 17+.
So characters getting to levels above 15 are rare, but the capstone is still level 20. If you put the capstone at level 15 you can remove the levels after that from the books.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32

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Catharsis wrote:
ryric wrote:
Not a fan of armor adding to "touch" AC. Touch AC should be how hard it is to hit you with the dot from a laser pointer or gently tap your arm. Armor shouldn't have any effect on that whatsoever.
No. Touch AC is how easy it is to deliver a spell or energy to you, not how easy it is to touch you. It makes sense that some armor can conduct energy around you or interfere with the transmission of magic.

Um, my entire point is that if it's not how easy it is to touch you, it shouldn't be called touch AC. Otherwise I have visions of full plate helping you "ninja-flip" out of the way of attacks, because your touch AC is how hard it is to slightly brush, i.e. touch, you.

Call it Spell AC or something else. Touch AC is for when I want to throw a snowball, or tap someone on the shoulder. If you fail to hit touch AC you have failed to make any sort of physical contact with the target at all.

This is one of those situations where retaining the old terminology but changing the meaning is unnecessary and confusing.


So if the goal is to not limit flexibility of the underlying system it seems the way armor runes work do exactly that. I'm not against having saving throws and TAC stem from armor, to some extent, but under the old system, I had to make a choice whether I wanted to invest in:
1. Being dodgy/hard to touch.
2. Being hard to hit.
3. Having good saving throws against spells.

The way things are designed now, I have exactly one item that grants all three. Why not split this apart? If I'm a back-line caster, why can't I focus on my saving throws, and maybe a bit on my touch AC at the exclusion of my regular AC. If I'm a paladin, why not be able to boost my regular AC and let my touch suffer a bit?

It seems anathema to the goals of PF2E (see what I did there) when armor here is basically saying "I'm good at everything defense!"

EDIT: You could do this simply using the current system by having separate rune slots for runes costing approximately 1/3rd the cost for each of these, so I could upgrade my TAC independently from my regular AC (obviously still to a maximum of the quality).


Diego Rossi wrote:
The AP I have played or I am playing end around level 15-16, Kingmaker reached level 18. but in the blog the Developers stated that their intention is to make the game fully viable till level 20.

You seemed to have jumped to a conclusion: The reason my games stop isn't because of an inherent issue with the game but the fact that I play online and games tend to break down by that point. So no matter HOW totally awesome the 'fix' they make to higher levels in an attempt to make them all viable, I don't foresee me seeing those higher levels because real life will inevitably intrude and end the game before that point.

Diego Rossi wrote:
In the 3/3.5 era I have played up to level 24 with a campaign that started at level 1. In the forum I see posts of people that regularly play at level 17+.

When I still played home games, I too played high levels. Not so anymore and well before I started pathfinder. As to forum posters, I've seen a substantial amount that say the opposite of what you've seen as they have said they stop around 10.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Rob Godfrey wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:
Jessex wrote:

Correct me if I misread but a character gets no benefit from a carried shield unless they spend one action a turn on it?

I know there are arguments against sword and board fighters but they are the classic template people think of when they think of fighters in fantasy RPG's. making the archetype both bad and excessively complicated to play seems like a bad idea.

Shields are way better now. If you get hit you get its hardness as DR for a reaction. A sword and board fighter now beats an otherwise equal two-handed one on one.
On the sword and board note: we now know that the Fighter 14th level ability is a flat +2 to reflex saves in very limited circumstances, with it being shield bonus, and enchantments to that not being a thing. Which is an uninspiring ability ti say the least...the casters get to break reality, with more powerful cantrips, and what amounts to free automatic meta magic, the fighter gets to do something that should be maybe a lvl 3 or 4 ability...at 14th....which should be the point where you are nearing Ares or Thor, not that kid out of Dragon Slayer, seriously, given the previews, why are non-casters even in the game? If they despise the classes this much, just remove them, not put out boring, weak previews as trap classes or punishment classes.

This whole post and the tangent it has spiraled into was missing the point of the conversation between Jessex and I. Jessex was implying that shield fighters are going to be worse than they are now because using a shield needs and aciton. We know that isn't true, because where now they lose to two handers, in PF2 they will beat them.

Where shield fighters or any other martial land for the caster/martial disparity is a concern I have, but it has nothing to do with the conversation about PF1 shields vs PF2 shields.


graystone wrote:
1of1 wrote:
Wait, is that a mummified bat? Hell yeah!
You sure that's not a familiar strap to attach your familiar to your belt? ;)

But which one of all those belts? ;)


Leyren wrote:
graystone wrote:
1of1 wrote:
Wait, is that a mummified bat? Hell yeah!
You sure that's not a familiar strap to attach your familiar to your belt? ;)
But which one of all those belts? ;)

I just hope my magic belt can have more than one magic novelty belt buckle so that my bat will hve more than one ensorcelled perch choice per belt.

Scarab Sages

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tivadar27 wrote:

So if the goal is to not limit flexibility of the underlying system it seems the way armor runes work do exactly that. I'm not against having saving throws and TAC stem from armor, to some extent, but under the old system, I had to make a choice whether I wanted to invest in:

1. Being dodgy/hard to touch.
2. Being hard to hit.
3. Having good saving throws against spells.

The way things are designed now, I have exactly one item that grants all three. Why not split this apart? If I'm a back-line caster, why can't I focus on my saving throws, and maybe a bit on my touch AC at the exclusion of my regular AC. If I'm a paladin, why not be able to boost my regular AC and let my touch suffer a bit?

It seems anathema to the goals of PF2E (see what I did there) when armor here is basically saying "I'm good at everything defense!"

EDIT: You could do this simply using the current system by having separate rune slots for runes costing approximately 1/3rd the cost for each of these, so I could upgrade my TAC independently from my regular AC (obviously still to a maximum of the quality).

We already know there are armors with more TAC than others; there might well also be some with +1 saves for the price of a lower armor bonus...


Deadmanwalking wrote:
Rob Godfrey wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:
Rob Godfrey wrote:
But saving isn't emerging unscathed, it's reducing the damage. Well unless you make it by an insane amount.

In PF2, if you have a Master level Proficiency in Reflex Saves and Save successfully you're completely unscathed (ie: successful saves count as critical successes). The same as Evasion in PF1.

Which is what I've been suggesting as a very real possibility for the Saving Shield thing since my first post on the subject.

Any indication that fighters get Master in reflex saves?

*sighs*

No, but they almost certainly get to Master Proficiency in armor and shields. My entire point was that if the 14th level thing let you add your shield and Shield Proficiency to your Reflex Save instead of your normal Reflex Proficiency, then it would give you a +4 to Reflex Saves and Evasion. Which would then be cool and powerful.

And that we didn't know whether it was something cool and powerful like that or something more lackluster and complaining about it was thus premature.

That was my whole point

and my entire point is 'I do something that even toddlers can manage but I only remember at lvl 14 is a terrible ability, it could be +10 and it would still be lackluster and boring. Again: Blocking things coming at you with a shield is and should be a natural defensive reflex, not a near cap stone class ability. THAT is the problem, it is dull, it is pedestrian and it is yet another 'martials can't have nice things' type ability.

Scarab Sages

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ryric wrote:
Catharsis wrote:
ryric wrote:
Not a fan of armor adding to "touch" AC. Touch AC should be how hard it is to hit you with the dot from a laser pointer or gently tap your arm. Armor shouldn't have any effect on that whatsoever.
No. Touch AC is how easy it is to deliver a spell or energy to you, not how easy it is to touch you. It makes sense that some armor can conduct energy around you or interfere with the transmission of magic.

Um, my entire point is that if it's not how easy it is to touch you, it shouldn't be called touch AC. Otherwise I have visions of full plate helping you "ninja-flip" out of the way of attacks, because your touch AC is how hard it is to slightly brush, i.e. touch, you.

Call it Spell AC or something else. Touch AC is for when I want to throw a snowball, or tap someone on the shoulder. If you fail to hit touch AC you have failed to make any sort of physical contact with the target at all.

This is one of those situations where retaining the old terminology but changing the meaning is unnecessary and confusing.

Spell AC sounds like a reasonable term; certainly a better use of «spell» than spell points.


Deadmanwalking wrote:
Dracoknight wrote:
Its still a lackbuster ability for level 14, by the time this comes online the dragon/caster have other more effective ways to deal with you than a mere reflex based spell.

I'm pretty sure just about everyone would take a Feat (or Talent, or whatever) in PF1 that gave +4 Reflex Saves and Evasion. That's an absurd bonus for a single Class Ability.

Now, even if this is true it's not quite brokenly good because it requires you to have spent an action on your shield to use, but if you're a shield based character you're pretty much gonna do that as often as you can anyway.

Now, it could also just be a +2, which would, IMO, be a bit lackluster, but my whole point is that we don't know.

Yes, as something like Iron Will lvl, about 6-8 NOT repeat NOT 14, the start of the Demigod smashing horrors from beyond space time levels, again, Thor, Ares, those are the kinda feats we should be looking at, not a reflexive block that even a toddler can manage that you somehow forgot to do...the problem isn't the numbers the problem is the thinking that sees this,,,thing.. as in any way an acceptable level 14 class feature, lvl 4 sure, lvl 14 no, just not.

Liberty's Edge

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Rob Godfrey wrote:
and my entire point is 'I do something that even toddlers can manage but I only remember at lvl 14 is a terrible ability, it could be +10 and it would still be lackluster and boring. Again: Blocking things coming at you with a shield is and should be a natural defensive reflex, not a near cap stone class ability. THAT is the problem, it is dull, it is pedestrian and it is yet another 'martials can't have nice things' type ability.

This is like saying that catching cannonballs (or giant boulders thrown at you) in your hands is unimpressive because 'toddlers can catch things'. Blocking a giant explosion completely is a whole different degree of capability than that possessed by almost anyone.

This assumes it does more than a mere +2, of course, but a +10? Or Evasion on top of a +2? Those are really impressive.


Catharsis wrote:
ryric wrote:
Catharsis wrote:
ryric wrote:
Not a fan of armor adding to "touch" AC. Touch AC should be how hard it is to hit you with the dot from a laser pointer or gently tap your arm. Armor shouldn't have any effect on that whatsoever.
No. Touch AC is how easy it is to deliver a spell or energy to you, not how easy it is to touch you. It makes sense that some armor can conduct energy around you or interfere with the transmission of magic.

Um, my entire point is that if it's not how easy it is to touch you, it shouldn't be called touch AC. Otherwise I have visions of full plate helping you "ninja-flip" out of the way of attacks, because your touch AC is how hard it is to slightly brush, i.e. touch, you.

Call it Spell AC or something else. Touch AC is for when I want to throw a snowball, or tap someone on the shoulder. If you fail to hit touch AC you have failed to make any sort of physical contact with the target at all.

This is one of those situations where retaining the old terminology but changing the meaning is unnecessary and confusing.

Spell AC sounds like a reasonable term; certainly a better use of «spell» than spell points.

But what about attacks that use mundane acid or poison or whatever? There may also be the additional future addition of guns that can target this “spell” AC. I agree that there must be some better term than “touch”, though. I said “elemental armor class” earlier. Maybe “energy” armor class (like Starfinder) is better than that though.


Excaliburproxy wrote:
Leyren wrote:
graystone wrote:
1of1 wrote:
Wait, is that a mummified bat? Hell yeah!
You sure that's not a familiar strap to attach your familiar to your belt? ;)
But which one of all those belts? ;)
I just hope my magic belt can have more than one magic novelty belt buckle so that my bat will hve more than one ensorcelled perch choice per belt.

Or "bat slots", if you will.


Leyren wrote:
Excaliburproxy wrote:
Leyren wrote:
graystone wrote:
1of1 wrote:
Wait, is that a mummified bat? Hell yeah!
You sure that's not a familiar strap to attach your familiar to your belt? ;)
But which one of all those belts? ;)
I just hope my magic belt can have more than one magic novelty belt buckle so that my bat will hve more than one ensorcelled perch choice per belt.
Or "bat slots", if you will.

Too long have our bats been conseigned to languish in their single-belted-single-buckled ghettoes.

It is unconscionable.

Scarab Sages

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Leyren wrote:
Excaliburproxy wrote:
Leyren wrote:
graystone wrote:
1of1 wrote:
Wait, is that a mummified bat? Hell yeah!
You sure that's not a familiar strap to attach your familiar to your belt? ;)
But which one of all those belts? ;)
I just hope my magic belt can have more than one magic novelty belt buckle so that my bat will hve more than one ensorcelled perch choice per belt.
Or "bat slots", if you will.

Given the spell points fiasco, they‘re probably going to call them bird points.


Deadmanwalking wrote:
Rob Godfrey wrote:
and my entire point is 'I do something that even toddlers can manage but I only remember at lvl 14 is a terrible ability, it could be +10 and it would still be lackluster and boring. Again: Blocking things coming at you with a shield is and should be a natural defensive reflex, not a near cap stone class ability. THAT is the problem, it is dull, it is pedestrian and it is yet another 'martials can't have nice things' type ability.

This is like saying that catching cannonballs (or giant boulders thrown at you) in your hands is unimpressive because 'toddlers can catch things'. Blocking a giant explosion completely is a whole different degree of capability than that possessed by almost anyone.

This assumes it does more than a mere +2, of course, but a +10? Or Evasion on top of a +2? Those are really impressive.

why do you insist on claiming complete blocks and no damage? You yourself admitted that we do not know they have Master Reflexes, which makes complete blocks..not achievable. Not something that can be done. In fact a straw-man. This again is thematically dull, mechanically it could be the best thing ever and it would remain, dull, remain weak feeling, and certainly not worthy of the level in is available at. If 'be a bit good at blocking stuff' is this huge increase in power and versatility we were promised then..well it is nothing, pointless and gives me very little hope that anything is actually changing in a meaningful way.


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Catharsis wrote:
tivadar27 wrote:

So if the goal is to not limit flexibility of the underlying system it seems the way armor runes work do exactly that. I'm not against having saving throws and TAC stem from armor, to some extent, but under the old system, I had to make a choice whether I wanted to invest in:

1. Being dodgy/hard to touch.
2. Being hard to hit.
3. Having good saving throws against spells.

The way things are designed now, I have exactly one item that grants all three. Why not split this apart? If I'm a back-line caster, why can't I focus on my saving throws, and maybe a bit on my touch AC at the exclusion of my regular AC. If I'm a paladin, why not be able to boost my regular AC and let my touch suffer a bit?

It seems anathema to the goals of PF2E (see what I did there) when armor here is basically saying "I'm good at everything defense!"

EDIT: You could do this simply using the current system by having separate rune slots for runes costing approximately 1/3rd the cost for each of these, so I could upgrade my TAC independently from my regular AC (obviously still to a maximum of the quality).

We already know there are armors with more TAC than others; there might well also be some with +1 saves for the price of a lower armor bonus...

We don't know this, actually. We only have been given two armors as examples, and the second one is +1 better than the first for both touch and regular AC, so it's still a linear scale-up. I'll agree if we see some armors that are +1 Base AC, +3 Touch AC.

Even given this, I doubt we'll see these affect saves. And when you *do* want to upgrade with magic runes, it's still the situation where you have to upgrade all three at once.

EDIT: I'd really like a system where the base armor type determined touch vs regular AC discrepancy, and the runes had two slots, one that scaled touch and regular together (your base armor handles where you want to specialize), and the second that deals with saves.

Liberty's Edge

graystone wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
The AP I have played or I am playing end around level 15-16, Kingmaker reached level 18. but in the blog the Developers stated that their intention is to make the game fully viable till level 20.

You seemed to have jumped to a conclusion: The reason my games stop isn't because of an inherent issue with the game but the fact that I play online and games tend to break down by that point. So no matter HOW totally awesome the 'fix' they make to higher levels in an attempt to make them all viable, I don't foresee me seeing those higher levels because real life will inevitably intrude and end the game before that point.

Diego Rossi wrote:
In the 3/3.5 era I have played up to level 24 with a campaign that started at level 1. In the forum I see posts of people that regularly play at level 17+.
When I still played home games, I too played high levels. Not so anymore and well before I started pathfinder. As to forum posters, I've seen a substantial amount that say the opposite of what you've seen as they have said they stop around 10.

I play home games so we generally complete the APs. I even have one player that stopped playing because he hate when a campaign end and he has to create a new character. He want to continue the story of the old one. So far my play by post campaigns have ended at 3rd level, so I envious of your fourteen level campaigns. ;-)

But the game has the means to get to 20th level, so 14th level isn't the capstone and almost Thor level at level 14 mean that you will be over him at level 20.

And if the fighter will be "almost Thor level" by level 14th, the wizard should be at least "almost Circe level" or "Loki* level" and we end with the current situation.

*Not the Marvel Loki, the one in the viking sagas.


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Rob Godfrey wrote:
why do you insist on claiming complete blocks and no damage? You yourself admitted that we do not know they have Master Reflexes, which makes complete blocks..not achievable. Not something that can be done. In fact a straw-man.

We do know for a fact that at least fireball will have anyone taking no damage on a critical success (beating the DC by 10, or rolling a nat20) on the save. Thus having +2 on the save makes it more likely that you'll get that critical success.

We have also been told that Evasion is not worded "you take no damage on a successful Reflex save", rather it is along the lines of "when you succeed in a Reflex save, you treat it as a critical success".


Diego Rossi wrote:
graystone wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
The AP I have played or I am playing end around level 15-16, Kingmaker reached level 18. but in the blog the Developers stated that their intention is to make the game fully viable till level 20.

You seemed to have jumped to a conclusion: The reason my games stop isn't because of an inherent issue with the game but the fact that I play online and games tend to break down by that point. So no matter HOW totally awesome the 'fix' they make to higher levels in an attempt to make them all viable, I don't foresee me seeing those higher levels because real life will inevitably intrude and end the game before that point.

Diego Rossi wrote:
In the 3/3.5 era I have played up to level 24 with a campaign that started at level 1. In the forum I see posts of people that regularly play at level 17+.
When I still played home games, I too played high levels. Not so anymore and well before I started pathfinder. As to forum posters, I've seen a substantial amount that say the opposite of what you've seen as they have said they stop around 10.

I play home games so we generally complete the APs. I even have one player that stopped playing because he hate when a campaign end and he has to create a new character. He want to continue the story of the old one. So far my play by post campaigns have ended at 3rd level, so I envious of your fourteen level campaigns. ;-)

But the game has the means to get to 20th level, so 14th level isn't the capstone and almost Thor level at level 14 mean that you will be over him at level 20.

And if the fighter will be "almost Thor level" by level 14th, the wizard should be at least "almost Circe level" or "Loki* level" and we end with the current situation.

*Not the Marvel Loki, the one in the viking sagas.

The mages already are at that level, so any catch up is better than what we have now, and at 20 we are supposed to be having fights against the greater servitors of Mythos Gods etc, so yes, you are past Thor at that point.


Rob Godfrey wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:
Rob Godfrey wrote:
and my entire point is 'I do something that even toddlers can manage but I only remember at lvl 14 is a terrible ability, it could be +10 and it would still be lackluster and boring. Again: Blocking things coming at you with a shield is and should be a natural defensive reflex, not a near cap stone class ability. THAT is the problem, it is dull, it is pedestrian and it is yet another 'martials can't have nice things' type ability.

This is like saying that catching cannonballs (or giant boulders thrown at you) in your hands is unimpressive because 'toddlers can catch things'. Blocking a giant explosion completely is a whole different degree of capability than that possessed by almost anyone.

This assumes it does more than a mere +2, of course, but a +10? Or Evasion on top of a +2? Those are really impressive.

why do you insist on claiming complete blocks and no damage? You yourself admitted that we do not know they have Master Reflexes, which makes complete blocks..not achievable. Not something that can be done. In fact a straw-man. This again is thematically dull, mechanically it could be the best thing ever and it would remain, dull, remain weak feeling, and certainly not worthy of the level in is available at. If 'be a bit good at blocking stuff' is this huge increase in power and versatility we were promised then..well it is nothing, pointless and gives me very little hope that anything is actually changing in a meaningful way.

- You can save for no damage if you beat the DC by 10. That’s going to need some bonuses to pull off consistently.

- Because +/-10 matters, save bonuses are about twice as valuable in PF2. It’s boring but practical.
- Another 14th level defensive option is to shake off any one standard condition or ongoing spell.

Liberty's Edge

Rob Godfrey wrote:
why do you insist on claiming complete blocks and no damage? You yourself admitted that we do not know they have Master Reflexes, which makes complete blocks..not achievable. Not something that can be done. In fact a straw-man.

Have you actually read my arguments here? My whole point was that the shield Feat itself could easily allow this (ie: it could give you Evasion on top of a Save bonus). Which is awesome.

I've never claimed that's true. I've just said it's a possibility and we should wait to see if the Feat does that or something equally awesome before complaining about it. That's it.

Rob Godfrey wrote:
This again is thematically dull, mechanically it could be the best thing ever and it would remain, dull, remain weak feeling, and certainly not worthy of the level in is available at. If 'be a bit good at blocking stuff' is this huge increase in power and versatility we were promised then..well it is nothing, pointless and gives me very little hope that anything is actually changing in a meaningful way.

Every Class has some boring workaday effects that aren't exciting, just mechanically good. Fighter having one means nothing about any other Fighter stuff. Indeed, most Classes also have some legitimately bad effects that are also mechanically boring, so even if this qualifies it means nothing.

I mean, if all they get are such effects, that would be unfortunate, I agree, but we have no evidence of that. Indeed, given that they explicitly get the ability to jump 20 feet into the air and drag flying enemies down with them and get it in the 7th-8th level range, the evidence is quite strong for more exciting abilities as options.


Captain Morgan wrote:
Jessex wrote:

Correct me if I misread but a character gets no benefit from a carried shield unless they spend one action a turn on it?

I know there are arguments against sword and board fighters but they are the classic template people think of when they think of fighters in fantasy RPG's. making the archetype both bad and excessively complicated to play seems like a bad idea.

Shields are way better now. If you get hit you get its hardness as DR for a reaction. A sword and board fighter now beats an otherwise equal two-handed one on one.

Look at the action economy to get a little DR against that one attack and shield AC for one round, 1 of 3 actions in a round plus the character's only reaction per round. Now consider the 2 handed fighter. Simply use all 3 actions for attacks or movement as needed and have the reaction for AoO or whatever else might be available.

The sword and board fighter invest too much into it for what looks like way too little return in the combat round.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

For a fighter that can raise their shield as a reaction, that feat is essential a constant +2 bonus to Reflex, and they can still use a block reaction on other damage. We don't know how difficult it might be to acquire near constant bonuses to saves, but we do know that +2 will make the difference between degrees of success in about one in five of applicable saving throws.

I'd like the feat to have a little more, but I could see myself taking it as is on a few builds. My shield saving my bacon on every fifth fireball isn't flashy, but it is nice to have.

Who knows? Maybe there is some unannounced way to boost a shield bonus a few points as well.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber
Jessex wrote:

Look at the action economy to get a little DR against that one attack and shield AC for one round, 1 of 3 actions in a round plus the character's only reaction per round. Now consider the 2 handed fighter. Simply use all 3 actions for attacks or movement as needed and have the reaction for AoO or whatever else might be available.

The sword and board fighter invest too much into it for what looks like way too little return in the combat round.

The sword and board fighter didn't invest very much at all if they don't have Reactive Shield to raise shields as a reaction and an extra reaction for shield block.


Deadmanwalking wrote:
Rob Godfrey wrote:
why do you insist on claiming complete blocks and no damage? You yourself admitted that we do not know they have Master Reflexes, which makes complete blocks..not achievable. Not something that can be done. In fact a straw-man.

Have you actually read my arguments here? My whole point was that the shield Feat itself could easily allow this (ie: it could give you Evasion on top of a Save bonus). Which is awesome.

I've never claimed that's true. I've just said it's a possibility and we should wait to see if the Feat does that or something equally awesome before complaining about it. That's it.

Rob Godfrey wrote:
This again is thematically dull, mechanically it could be the best thing ever and it would remain, dull, remain weak feeling, and certainly not worthy of the level in is available at. If 'be a bit good at blocking stuff' is this huge increase in power and versatility we were promised then..well it is nothing, pointless and gives me very little hope that anything is actually changing in a meaningful way.

Every Class has some boring workaday effects that aren't exciting, just mechanically good. Fighter having one means nothing about any other Fighter stuff. Indeed, most Classes also have some legitimately bad effects that are also mechanically boring, so even if this qualifies it means nothing.

I mean, if all they get are such effects, that would be unfortunate, I agree, but we have no evidence of that. Indeed, given that they explicitly get the ability to jump 20 feet into the air and drag flying enemies down with them and get it in the 7th-8th level range, the evidence is quite strong for more exciting abilities as options.

I want a GM who is silly enough to make fliers stay at 20ft :p it's usually more like '2nd range increment of what ever they are pin cushioning you with' my argument is that workaday and practicel is all fine and good at the lower-mid levels, it has no place at the top end, that simple.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Jessex wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:
Jessex wrote:

Correct me if I misread but a character gets no benefit from a carried shield unless they spend one action a turn on it?

I know there are arguments against sword and board fighters but they are the classic template people think of when they think of fighters in fantasy RPG's. making the archetype both bad and excessively complicated to play seems like a bad idea.

Shields are way better now. If you get hit you get its hardness as DR for a reaction. A sword and board fighter now beats an otherwise equal two-handed one on one.

Look at the action economy to get a little DR against that one attack and shield AC for one round, 1 of 3 actions in a round plus the character's only reaction per round. Now consider the 2 handed fighter. Simply use all 3 actions for attacks or movement as needed and have the reaction for AoO or whatever else might be available.

The sword and board fighter invest too much into it for what looks like way too little return in the combat round.

An attack at -10 ain't the most exciting thing in a round.

Also, everything you mentioned the two-hander doing, the sword and board can also do. Raising your shield doesn't mean you HAVE to spend your reaction blocking. You still can take the AoO instead. (In the new game, I'd assume an enemy who sees you have AoO probably won't provoke more than once in a combat.) And we know they can get a second reaction for using the shield block again. I'd assume that means you can use one reaction to block and the other for the AoO.

The two-hander does slightly better damage, obviously, but that's the trade off for lacking those options. That means while S&B has the edge when things attack him, the two-hander has the advantage for rounds where they instead attack allies. Unless, of course, S&B packs Shield Warden and the enemy tries to attack an adjacent ally...

We also have a ton of testimony from people who have actually gotten to use the new shields, and it has been overwhelmingly positive. Sslarn has said that when he switched to a two-hander he wound up dearly missing that shield on many occasions. Turning hits into misses, crits into hits, and cutting damage dealt down is really useful.


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Re Shield to Reflex:
It shouldn't even be a feat at all. It should be part of shield proficiency.

"And with my last action Valeros will raise his shield."
"Okay, the wizard points at Val and a ball of fire streaks through the sky toward him."
"Good thing I raised my --"
"The ball of fire explodes in front of you, passing directly through the shield you wasted an action to raise to defend yourself as if it were not even there."

Don't make martials be level 14 before they can do basic, obvious things that should be natural and obvious for anyone in world to figure out. Especially if you insist that benefiting from carrying a shield requires an action be wasted on it in the fist place.

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