One of key points made during that answer and what is most salient to my point here is that we were told that the ability score generation was literally the last thing they changed and not even the playtesters got to see that final version before it went to print.
Oh cool. I had not heard that yet. Clears that up. Thanks for the information.
If that's true it's... disappointing. One of the nice things about geometrically increasing costs is that it encourages you to spread your points around by putting a heavier cost on mainlining a single ability score, and that's lost with linear costs. Combined with buying odd ability scores being a trap option that bites the dust at 17+, you're effectively getting racial modifiers then placing a total of +5 modifiers wherever, which is a bit... flat. You'd probably see a lot of characters with very similar arrays.
Racial ability scores mattering waaaaaay less as long as they're in something you wanted to spend points in at all is at least different, though. A half-orc soldier and an elf soldier will want and be able to purchase identical ability scores for the same cost. Races that get bonuses to Charisma would probably be pretty unpopular, relative to the rest of the cast. As long as your species' bennies are in something universally usable like Dexterity or Constitution you could play pretty much any class with them.
Here you go folks, eye witness account of how point buy works.
It's surprisingly simple and straight forward. You get 10's across the board, and then add racial modifiers. These seem to be a net +3. I've seen +4/-1, +2/+2/-1, and +4/+1/-1/-1.
After that, you have 10 points to spend. Placing a point in a score increases it by 1, regardless of the score. 16->17 costs 1 point, as does 9->10. You can't have a score higher than 18. Additionally, you don't get points back for going below 10 - no dump stats in Starfinder.
At 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th, You increase 4 ability scores. A score above 16 is increased by 1, a score at or below 16 is increased by 2.
So for example, say we have a Goblin Operative, because why not.
Goblins get +4 Dex, -1 Cha, so we start with
10 14 10 10 10 9
Then we spend our 10 points. 4 go to Dex, hitting the max of 18. 2 for Con for some HP, then 4 more into Int for skill ranks. Now we have
10 18 12 14 10 9
At 5th level, we get our increases. Let's do Dex, Int, Con, and Wis, 'cause why not. Now we have
10 19 14 16 12 9
and so on.
Overall I think it's pretty elegant. It allows for specialization in 1 ability (spellcasters) without having to dump everything, and the level increases balance that out by making MAD classes much more able to function. Also it's so much easier to explain that the Pathfinder system, for which I've resorted to the phrase "I'll send you a link to a point buy calculator."
Except that all appears to be outdated information. I bet that was the playtest rules since it aligns perfectly with the material from First Contact. If that demo game was run by a Paizo rep, I might accept it, but it doesn't line up with what we know about the Shirren ability scores (two +2s and a -2 does not equal a net gain of +3) and nobody but Paizo has seen the final rules as far as we know. I mean, who ran this guy's demo game?
Someone up thread asked for stats on characters from a demo or con game. Well, I played Raia Danviri, the 5th level Damaya Lashunta Technomancer with the Xenoseeker theme in Owen KC Stephens Emerald Star Spire game at PaizoCon. Her stats were:
STR 10
DEX 14
CON 12
INT 19
WIS 10
CHA 15
She had no gear on her character sheet that I can see that gave her a boost to ability scores. If she did have something boosting her stats, it was not written down as such on the premade sheet provided to us.
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Not sure why everyone is freaking about ability scores when the most important question has yet to be asked:
How much does it hurt when I punch someone with my robo-arm, and can I make it hurt more?
Not sure why everyone is freaking about ability scores when the most important question has yet to be asked:
How much does it hurt when I punch someone with my robo-arm, and can I make it hurt more?
The answers are probably "a lot" and "yes if you upgrade that arm"
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If the character sheet we have seen is correct, and there is no weighting, then base ability scores before racial adjustments are 10, with 11 attribute points to distribute freely at first level.
Lets see if that works with Raia Danviri. Working backwards, at level 1:
Str 10
Dex 12
Con 10
Int 18
Wis 10
Cha 15Lets say racial ajustmants are +2 int, cha, -2 con. Then basic stats are
Str 10
Dex 12
Con 12
Int 16
Wis 10
Cha 13.Well, that is 13 points, so not quite right.
The extra 2 points would come from a personal upgrade at level 3. Those are permanent upgrades so it not appearing on the sheet isn't necessary.
You arent including the theme bonus in there either. so 1 from theme, 2 from augment and it looks like you've solved the puzzle :)
Good job that adds up nicely
So stats will cap at around 22?
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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What I'm seeing with these better ability score increases is a trope from science fiction where future people are just "better" than modern ones. You see this in books like Dune where millennia of careful genetic planning have made people who are just smarter, faster, and stronger than those in the past. Combine this with better nutrition and access to education, and it makes sense that Starfinder characters would effectively be innately more talented than their fantasy counterparts.
What I'm seeing with these better ability score increases is a trope from science fiction where future people are just "better" than modern ones. You see this in books like Dune where millennia of careful genetic planning have made people who are just smarter, faster, and stronger than those in the past. Combine this with better nutrition and access to education, and it makes sense that Starfinder characters would effectively be innately more talented than their fantasy counterparts.
So, perhaps as individual people have become more powerful with scientific progress, I imagine the world around them will have become correspondingly more perilous and troublesome to enterprising heroes, resulting in higher DCs? An ability spectrum inflation?
Tell Gip more 'bout dragon gland! Space Pirate Captain Gip wants to know if it is a breath weapon that is actually useful at all levels!
Except that all appears to be outdated information. I bet that was the playtest rules since it aligns perfectly with the material from First Contact. If that demo game was run by a Paizo rep, I might accept it, but it doesn't line up with what we know about the Shirren ability scores (two +2s and a -2 does not equal a net gain of +3) and nobody but Paizo has seen the final rules as far as we know. I mean, who ran this guy's demo game?
Someone up thread asked for stats on characters from a demo or con game....
Well, a) He said they had the fully printed proper book, not a collection of stapled together home printed pages.
And b) The shirren stats are from before the finalized book was sent to printers, so they could've changed to +2/+2/-1.
Oh, and c) he said Erik Mona was there, but he didn't say if he ran the demo or was merely present, since he mentioned that they spoke about the game.
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You guys forget how many stats we got in PF. +6 enhancement to all stats and +5 inherent bonus to all stats with 5 more from levels. That's a total potential of +71 points
Meanwhile in sf you get max +32 from levels, +12 from personal upgrades, and +1 from themes which tallys to +43.
Even if you think inherent bonuses are too expensive in PF, PF still beats starfinder by +8 points and that is if you do the weird 18 in all stat build.
Except that all appears to be outdated information. I bet that was the playtest rules since it aligns perfectly with the material from First Contact. If that demo game was run by a Paizo rep, I might accept it, but it doesn't line up with what we know about the Shirren ability scores (two +2s and a -2 does not equal a net gain of +3) and nobody but Paizo has seen the final rules as far as we know. I mean, who ran this guy's demo game?
Someone up thread asked for stats on characters from a demo or con game....
Well, a) He said they had the fully printed proper book, not a collection of stapled together home printed pages.
And b) The shirren stats are from before the finalized book was sent to printers, so they could've changed to +2/+2/-1.
Oh, and c) he said Erik Mona was there, but he didn't say if he ran the demo or was merely present, since he mentioned that they spoke about the game.
Well, points a and c are all just a "he said" type of thing that we cannot verify and would only speak to his veracity after we could make that verification from other witnesses.
As for point b - What makes you say that? I'm pretty certain we were told at the banquet that those slide images were from the PDF copy that was sent to the printers. Furthermore, I was at PaizoCon, where I got to flip through the copy of the black and white spiral bound print of what they sent to the printers (not all chapters were present, but the relevant one on races was and the ability score generation/character creation was not) that was handed to me by Owen KC Stephens. Later, I got to flip through it again while waiting for a delve game (where it was chained to James Sutter). We were asked not to take pictures of it, so I did not. The stats in that copy for the races were all of the +2, +2, -2 variety. If you need verification, I can provide witnesses and photos of the games with those I have named being present and have already done so on my Facebook.
I am just saying his numbers are off. Maybe his account of who and what was there is accurate, but I'm just saying that his numbers contradict other information that is out there.
Except that all appears to be outdated information. I bet that was the playtest rules since it aligns perfectly with the material from First Contact. If that demo game was run by a Paizo rep, I might accept it, but it doesn't line up with what we know about the Shirren ability scores (two +2s and a -2 does not equal a net gain of +3) and nobody but Paizo has seen the final rules as far as we know. I mean, who ran this guy's demo game?
Someone up thread asked for stats on characters from a demo or con game....
Well, a) He said they had the fully printed proper book, not a collection of stapled together home printed pages.
And b) The shirren stats are from before the finalized book was sent to printers, so they could've changed to +2/+2/-1.
Oh, and c) he said Erik Mona was there, but he didn't say if he ran the demo or was merely present, since he mentioned that they spoke about the game.
Erik Mona ran the show for the MN demo. The demo party was the last 20 or 30 minutes. First 2.5 hours was Erik doing a Q&A while passing an actual book around.
my brother-in-law and I both made a point of reading the character creation section when we had the book. The example you linked earlier is spot on with one exception, stat bonus wasn't applied in that example. What I read in the book was:
All stats at 10
Apply Racial bonuses
Apply Theme bonus
Spend 10 points
No stat above 18
That sounds good, then. All I was disputing was racial stats of +2, +2, -1 as opposed to the +2, +2, -2.
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I've got to say, that I'm thrilled with the stat buy being leaked here. I am sick of being told that 15 point but is how the game is "supposed to be played" when it's been proven math error. I don't know how many classes are MAD, but this way there won't be any concern playing them.
That sounds good, then. All I was disputing was racial stats of +2, +2, -1 as opposed to the +2, +2, -2.
Except you weren't "just" disputing that, you were claiming that all of it was wrong and were using the Shirren stats as proof:
Except that all appears to be outdated information. I bet that was the playtest rules since it aligns perfectly with the material from First Contact. If that demo game was run by a Paizo rep, I might accept it, but it doesn't line up with what we know about the Shirren ability scores (two +2s and a -2 does not equal a net gain of +3) and nobody but Paizo has seen the final rules as far as we know. I mean, who ran this guy's demo game?
That sounds good, then. All I was disputing was racial stats of +2, +2, -1 as opposed to the +2, +2, -2.Except you weren't "just" disputing that, you were claiming that all of it was wrong and were using the Shirren stats as proof:
Except that all appears to be outdated information. I bet that was the playtest rules since it aligns perfectly with the material from First Contact. If that demo game was run by a Paizo rep, I might accept it, but it doesn't line up with what we know about the Shirren ability scores (two +2s and a -2 does not equal a net gain of +3) and nobody but Paizo has seen the final rules as far as we know. I mean, who ran this guy's demo game?
Um, yes, I was disputing that, specifically. Your use of "just" is putting words in my mouth because the quote you cited there does not have it, nor does the rest of the post it was quoted from. True, I should not have used the word "all" as the third word in the second quote you cited, but I thought my intent was clear enough at the time. It is clear to me now that I should have made it more concise by calling out the "net +3" from the material you quoted as being the specific source of what I was disputing. But, to me, it called the rest of the material cited into question as it was all in the same, quoted material. As to why I did not do so... well, the only excuse I can offer is that it was a rather late hour for me. But, I still stand by what I said for the time I said it knowing what I knew at the time, as the way it was presented in the quoted material threw off the numbers. In other words, my dispute was with what that poster you quoted from another place cited for his numbers and not with what you said as you were simply sharing information from elsewhere. You seem to be offended, but no offense was meant; not to you or the source of your information. As to why I used the shirren stats as proof, I have already stated my case. But, you have not addressed why you thought the shirren material from the PaizoCon slide was disputable.
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Just occured to me, if stats are so tightly reigned in, does this mean there are no strength augmenting Power Armors in the game? Or that there are but they dont stack with any other stack augments the PC might have? I could even see a power armor that goes all the way back to AD&D in that when used the wearer's strength is set to a specific level. I would be surprised and disappointed if there are no armors at all like that though...
I mean, your +6 STR enhancement could come from an external technical source, like the power armor in Day after tomorrow.
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Just occured to me, if stats are so tightly reigned in, does this mean there are no strength augmenting Power Armors in the game? Or that there are but they dont stack with any other stack augments the PC might have? I could even see a power armor that goes all the way back to AD&D in that when used the wearer's strength is set to a specific level. I would be surprised and disappointed if there are no armors at all like that though...
It might depend on what you actually want augmente. Attack and damage? Probably not. But there might be power armors that enhance carrying capacity - possibly by a whole lot, even - or other, more limited uses of the Strength attribute that you could enhance separately from the base stat.
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That did occur to me but it also feels like it would be choosing to have a limit that other players dont since it sounds like they can be integrated genetic/technological/magical augments, things that cant really be targeted, sundered or stolen easily but if you want to have your big augment in your armor than you are choosing to take on those weaknesses to follow the concept, not an idea i am thrilled with.
But I don't see the difference in what I said or you said. Because either way your strength enhancing power armor can be sundered
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I am sorry if i muddled my thoughts,
Character A has an intergrated Strength augment that adds +6, they choose to use a genetic improvement option, calling it something like carbon fiber muscle cords or something, basically this blog tells us that the augments can be just about anything that sound like they are permenantly attached to the character.
Character B wants to emulate a classic power armor so they choose to have their +6 strength augment added to their armor instead. they now have to worry about loosing their bonus anytime they take off their armor, the armor as a large and external thing is actually more vulnerable to shenanigans than something that is integrated into the character's body and they have to worry about taking out the augment if they ever find a better armor they want to augment. Basically character B has a lot more hoops to jump through and concerns to track than character A.
Is this a bit clearer?
That makes more sense. Though many players like to take deliberate weaknesses, so there is that.
As for power armor itself, it might be more of a utility item than a stat boosing item, having built in systems that let you use technological tools without having to "draw them" and/or delivering potions/stimulants quicker/immediately.
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I can see powerarmor that sets your strength to a set value. There's only so far technology can boost your physical frame :)Yes, i agree... but that "so far" is really, really, really far; to the point where the armor is doing all of the lifting and your own arms are just the control interface rather than providing any of the force on their own. I mean, who really thinks Stark was adding the extra oomph when wearing the Hulk Buster? :P
To me, a powerarmor augments/supports the user's own strength and bolsters defences by a ton. So the Hulk Buster was more of a mecha than a powerarmor by that definition :)
Here you go folks, eye witness account of how point buy works.
It's surprisingly simple and straight forward. You get 10's across the board, and then add racial modifiers. These seem to be a net +3. I've seen +4/-1, +2/+2/-1, and +4/+1/-1/-1.
After that, you have 10 points to spend. Placing a point in a score increases it by 1, regardless of the score. 16->17 costs 1 point, as does 9->10. You can't have a score higher than 18. Additionally, you don't get points back for going below 10 - no dump stats in Starfinder.
At 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th, You increase 4 ability scores. A score above 16 is increased by 1, a score at or below 16 is increased by 2.
So for example, say we have a Goblin Operative, because why not.
Goblins get +4 Dex, -1 Cha, so we start with
10 14 10 10 10 9
Then we spend our 10 points. 4 go to Dex, hitting the max of 18. 2 for Con for some HP, then 4 more into Int for skill ranks. Now we have
10 18 12 14 10 9
At 5th level, we get our increases. Let's do Dex, Int, Con, and Wis, 'cause why not. Now we have
10 19 14 16 12 9
and so on.
Overall I think it's pretty elegant. It allows for specialization in 1 ability (spellcasters) without having to dump everything, and the level increases balance that out by making MAD classes much more able to function. Also it's so much easier to explain that the Pathfinder system, for which I've resorted to the phrase "I'll send you a link to a point buy calculator."
Interesting, I am very encouraged by this. Though I did see a few posts back they mentioned that there would be three different methods for determining stats. Regardless this works very well and Im good with it.
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My vision is augmented.
I was already planning on having my first ever SF character be inspired by Deus Ex, so this only makes me more optimistic about the game.
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Personally, I hope that a suit of power armor acts like the old belts of giant strength. They simply provide a flat strength score and do not rely on the wearers own strength at all.
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Personally, I hope that a suit of power armor acts like the old belts of giant strength. They simply provide a flat strength score and do not rely on the wearers own strength at all.
I think there is room for both:
-The power-loader that just needs an operator
-The symbiotic enhancer which works from the wearers strenght and boosts it.
The only thing that annoys me about that point buy is stat cap is 28 (+9 mod) and not 30 (+10 mod which is a much nicer number)
Start at 18. Add the +6 and the +5 to get to 29. Shame the independent point from themes doesn't add on afterwards. So close