Right, i think that even Starfinder Androids will be derivative of the work of the Androffans who didnt even seem to know that souls exist, they were just making synthetic humans and apparently that was enough to create a shell that would draw in a soul but it was never intended and both the Androffans and now the Pact Worlds have tons of complex computers without souls. But there is apparently a line somewhere on that spectrum at...Androids seem like something of a programmatic shortcut- instead of developing an AI, you use a soul. That doesn't mean that you can't program an AI- an intelligence independent of a soul. The AI deity may not have a soul. (Certainly, Trinity is beyond Starfinder's resurrection tests.)Where does that place things like an AI? Since we have an AI based god i assume that at some point what was a machine and some coding attracted a soul?In Starfinder, androids have souls. We ever reference that fact in this story. It's not symbolic of some programming glitch -- an android has a soul, can be raised from the dead through the same magic that raises people from the dead, you an go to the outer planes and visit the souls of dead androids waiting in line to be judged. You can be reincarnated as an android.
They are people, not just programs or machines. A human's body is created by a complex chemical process. An android's body is created by a complex technological process.
But they are both people, because they both have souls.
Of course there are people with biases against androids due to the manufactured nature of their physical form, and people who are bigoted for whatever hateful reasons people end up being bigots.
But there's no need for a Turing test in Starfinder.
If you cast raise dead on a typical computer that got broken, even one with an artificial personality, nothing happens. It has no soul.
Cast it on an android, and the android is restored to life.
Androids are people.
Outsider's can attain divinity. I don't believe outsiders have souls, or at least normal mortal souls. Souls seem like they aren't even necessary for consciousness, they're just the thing that seems to allow for free will without preprogramed intent (a human can become the most virtuous person or the vilest one, but a devil will always be a devil). So an AI without a soul will do just as it's programming desires, but one that has a soul may break from it's original programmed parameters, or possibly even inexplicably rewrite said parameters.
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Right, i think that even Starfinder Androids will be derivative of the work of the Androffans who didnt even seem to know that souls exist, they were just making synthetic humans and apparently that was enough to create a shell that would draw in a soul but it was never intended and both the Androffans and now the Pact Worlds have tons of complex computers without souls. But there is apparently a line somewhere on that spectrum at which point the code gains a soul. Unless something without a soul can somehow attain godhood... which is a weird thought.Where does that place things like an AI? Since we have an AI based god i assume that at some point what was a machine and some coding attracted a soul?Androids seem like something of a programmatic shortcut- instead of developing an AI, you use a soul. That doesn't mean that you can't program an AI- an intelligence independent of a soul. The AI deity may not have a soul. (Certainly, Trinity is beyond Starfinder's resurrection tests.)
If you haven't seen it yet, when you have the time, watch Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex and Ghost in the Shell: S.A.C. 2nd Gig, and pay attention to...
(And have tissues ready.)
If you haven't seen it yet, when you have the time, watch Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex and Ghost in the Shell: S.A.C. 2nd Gig, and pay attention to... ** spoiler omitted **Right, i think that even Starfinder Androids will be derivative of the work of the Androffans who didnt even seem to know that souls exist, they were just making synthetic humans and apparently that was enough to create a shell that would draw in a soul but it was never intended and both the Androffans and now the Pact Worlds have tons of complex computers without souls. But there is apparently a line somewhere on that spectrum at which point the code gains a soul. Unless something without a soul can somehow attain godhood... which is a weird thought.Where does that place things like an AI? Since we have an AI based god i assume that at some point what was a machine and some coding attracted a soul?Androids seem like something of a programmatic shortcut- instead of developing an AI, you use a soul. That doesn't mean that you can't program an AI- an intelligence independent of a soul. The AI deity may not have a soul. (Certainly, Trinity is beyond Starfinder's resurrection tests.)
Is it any good? I'm a big anime fan.
this whole soul debeta gives me minecraft mod vibe and its called intangable were you get diffrent souls( passive, agresive, wise, doomed and divine) so if we put this on starfinder / path finder we have humanoid, outsider, elemental and deity souls and the only current thing we inract is humanoid souls which funnly gives huge plot for at least one season man me and my loco mind paizo feel free to stole the idea but please pm me a small response
I don't think elementals ever have souls, outsiders have a mortals soul combined with "quintessence", and I'm pretty sure most gods existed before the creation of souls at all so I don't think the first gods can even have souls.
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I have a question.
Say Iseph dies for whatever reason, thier soul moves on and gets judged. I got that. Now the new soul enters and it appears from Iseph backstory that personality has some basic skills and presumably a name they choose to identify themselves by. So am i correct in assuming that they are not like children as in blank slate? And it appears that scraps of former memories are sometimes left behind. So where do these new souls come from and how do they have memories? Are they stored somewhere or assembled? I know they arent programs but are they just divinely "aged" to a point where the android is self sufficient?
I have a question.
Say Iseph dies for whatever reason, thier soul moves on and gets judged. I got that. Now the new soul enters and it appears from Iseph backstory that personality has some basic skills and presumably a name they choose to identify themselves by. So am i correct in assuming that they are not like children as in blank slate? And it appears that scraps of former memories are sometimes left behind. So where do these new souls come from and how do they have memories? Are they stored somewhere or assembled? I know they arent programs but are they just divinely "aged" to a point where the android is self sufficient?
If they're like pathfinder's androids. If iseph dies for any reason except renewal, the body dies and there is no renewal that occurs (no new soul). The new souls would probably come from either a reincarnated soul, a soul from one of the outer planes that decides it wants to be reincarnated, or it would be a fresh soul created in the positive energy plane. The "brain" may still retain some of the memories of the previous soul, and because the mind is the physical (not metaphysical as in a soul) part of the android in question, renewal may not completely reset the android to a default state. I think it seems from the description of Iseph that androids are born to basically be the stereotypical rpg trope "you wake up with no memories of your previous life but still know how to properly dress yourself and eat." This allows for some memories to bleed through or remain to a degree, because those distant and mostly forgotten memories may be the only frame of reference for how to properly survive as an adult within starfinder.
I feel like I should post a like to this, because it seems kind of relevant when talking about pathfinder/starfinder souls.
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I have a question.
Say Iseph dies for whatever reason, thier soul moves on and gets judged. I got that. Now the new soul enters and it appears from Iseph backstory that personality has some basic skills and presumably a name they choose to identify themselves by. So am i correct in assuming that they are not like children as in blank slate? And it appears that scraps of former memories are sometimes left behind. So where do these new souls come from and how do they have memories? Are they stored somewhere or assembled? I know they arent programs but are they just divinely "aged" to a point where the android is self sufficient?
As far as I can tell, the "memories" are part of the android body. Instead of getting stuck in a tiny meat body that still has to finish growing a brain, the soul gets a nice pre-fab mind that includes an operating manual with an appendix of useful information for life in general. (It's a factory default thing, not memories leftover from last time. If somebody sells you their iPhone, they're going to wipe their personal information, but you'll still have all the default programs.) No need to "age" the soul, you're just starting it with better tools.
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So there is "programming" so to speak but it works hand in hand with a soul?
Sure, in the same way that a brain has programming that works hand in hand with a soul.
So there is "programming" so to speak but it works hand in hand with a soul?Sure, in the same way that a brain has programming that works hand in hand with a soul.
That's assuming we have souls. I for one am soulless. BWAHAHAHAHA!!!
it seems they have i think the previous personality's procedural memories - ones that means you remember how to do some things but not the memories specific as to how the memories where gained - so they'd remember how to find a virus bar and that virus bars exist but not remember being in one before
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That makes sense to me. So the memories would be fragmentary at best and not like " hey i know how to play the banjo"
that would be interesting.
An android bard (or envoy) with no memory, other than how to play the banjo/lute/guitar. Strangers come up to them and speak as if thry were old friends, but they know nothing of them and is irritated by their banter and endless questions.
He loves the instrument, however. It is the only thing they truly know in this world.
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The old friends thing must be weird. People would recognize the androids frame/body but they would have a different personality and or memories. Boy tons of potential there....i need to jot that down in my notes....
When I think of renewal I get a sort of doctor who vibe. Sure he knows a lot of his previous skills and such, but he's always a different person with a completely different personality and it hurts when the first people he comes to know when he wakes up almost look past him as if he isn't all there or he's missing something. They're not quite the same thing but I think I may try to take some inspiration from it.
Usually a resurrection spell can't resurrect someone who does not want to be brought back to life. An android that goes through renewal has chosen to pass on, and so doubtfully wants to be brought back from the dead. Since it "functions like raise dead" the subject will not return if they aren't willing to do so.
Will they have a little robot buddy, or are they one of the other kind of mechanic. :-)
It'd be pretty messed up for an android to allow another soul to begin it's life, only for the first soul to change their mind (although that's a great player-specific plot line).
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Usually a resurrection spell can't resurrect someone who does not want to be brought back to life. An android that goes through renewal has chosen to pass on, and so doubtfully wants to be brought back from the dead. Since it "functions like raise dead" the subject will not return if they aren't willing to do so.
*nods*
I can see most not wanting to but depending on whose resurrecting them they might allow themselves to be brought back.
Usually a resurrection spell can't resurrect someone who does not want to be brought back to life. An android that goes through renewal has chosen to pass on, and so doubtfully wants to be brought back from the dead. Since it "functions like raise dead" the subject will not return if they aren't willing to do so.*nods*
I can see most not wanting to but depending on whose resurrecting them they might allow themselves to be bright back.
Ya but what kind of person tried to steal the body of what basically amounts to their child? Starfinder therapists must have their work cut out for them.
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It'd be pretty messed up for an android to allow another soul to begin it's life, only for the first soul to change their mind (although that's a great player-specific plot line).
It'd be a pretty good hook for an occult-classed android PC who is haunted/channels previous souls incarnated in the same body.
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Ya but what kind of person tried to steal the body of what basically amounts to their child? Starfinder therapists must have their work cut out for them.Usually a resurrection spell can't resurrect someone who does not want to be brought back to life. An android that goes through renewal has chosen to pass on, and so doubtfully wants to be brought back from the dead. Since it "functions like raise dead" the subject will not return if they aren't willing to do so.*nods*
I can see most not wanting to but depending on whose resurrecting them they might allow themselves to be bright back.
???
True Resurrection gives you a whole new body.
Ya but what kind of person tried to steal the body of what basically amounts to their child? Starfinder therapists must have their work cut out for them.Usually a resurrection spell can't resurrect someone who does not want to be brought back to life. An android that goes through renewal has chosen to pass on, and so doubtfully wants to be brought back from the dead. Since it "functions like raise dead" the subject will not return if they aren't willing to do so.*nods*
I can see most not wanting to but depending on whose resurrecting them they might allow themselves to be bright back.
This makes me wonder how long it takes for a new soul to inhabit an androids body and is it any different when it is due to renewal, homicide, or an accident? And for that matter, do androids commit suicide as a separate concept from renewal?
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Ya but what kind of person tried to steal the body of what basically amounts to their child? Starfinder therapists must have their work cut out for them.Usually a resurrection spell can't resurrect someone who does not want to be brought back to life. An android that goes through renewal has chosen to pass on, and so doubtfully wants to be brought back from the dead. Since it "functions like raise dead" the subject will not return if they aren't willing to do so.*nods*
I can see most not wanting to but depending on whose resurrecting them they might allow themselves to be bright back.
???
True Resurrection gives you a whole new body.
Oh good point. Wouldn't "Even true resurrection can’t restore to life a creature who has died of old age." provent true resurrection from functioning? It's basically the android equivalent of passing from old age. The soul no longer has an urge to hold onto its mortal shell and passes on.
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It'd be pretty messed up for an android to allow another soul to begin it's life, only for the first soul to change their mind (although that's a great player-specific plot line).It'd be a pretty good hook for an occult-classed android PC who is haunted/channels previous souls incarnated in the same body.
*nods*
There's also the Shattered Psyche Oracle Curse from Iron Gods as well.
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Oh good point. Wouldn't "Even true resurrection can’t restore to life a creature who has died of old age." provent true resurrection from functioning? It's basically the android equivalent of passing from old age. The soul no longer has an urge to hold onto its mortal shell and passes on.Ya but what kind of person tried to steal the body of what basically amounts to their child? Starfinder therapists must have their work cut out for them.Usually a resurrection spell can't resurrect someone who does not want to be brought back to life. An android that goes through renewal has chosen to pass on, and so doubtfully wants to be brought back from the dead. Since it "functions like raise dead" the subject will not return if they aren't willing to do so.*nods*
I can see most not wanting to but depending on whose resurrecting them they might allow themselves to be bright back.
???
True Resurrection gives you a whole new body.
Ah! Very good point.
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It'd be pretty messed up for an android to allow another soul to begin it's life, only for the first soul to change their mind (although that's a great player-specific plot line).It'd be a pretty good hook for an occult-classed android PC who is haunted/channels previous souls incarnated in the same body.
Yeah, I've already heard tell of someone wanting to make a Samsaran Spiritualist who summons up a phantom of one of their previous life-incarnations, but an Android Spiritualist whose phantom is a previous occupant of his body, or an Android Medium who channels spirits of her body's previous tenants, could be funky!
"Three renewals ago, this body was that of a powerful wizard. Give me a minute to use this body we share as a touchstone/focus/fetter to see if I can channel some of her arcane power..."
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Contributor
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Huh, all this discussion makes me wonder what happens to an android who becomes the target of a witch's Forced Reincarnation (and fails the willsave).
What kind of table should be created for androids or will they change type and turn humanoid?
In Pathfinder, reincarnating androids works the same way as for any other humanoid. (See Inner Sea Races, page 193.) They don't appear on the expanded table, though, so while you can reincarnate an android, reincarnate can't result in an android.
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Wicked Witch "If I keep forced reincarnating that android, eventually a *useful* soul might move in..."
<Meanwhile, in the surrounding forest, a half-dozen newly awakened gnomes, elves, etc. are vaguely remembering having been an android working for a particularly short-tempered witch, for a brief period of time...>
Wicked Witch "If I keep forced reincarnating that android, eventually a *useful* soul might move in..."
<Meanwhile, in the surrounding forest, a half-dozen newly awakened gnomes, elves, etc. are vaguely remembering having been an android working for a particularly short-tempered witch, for a brief period of time...>
I suppose it depends if renewal counts as death by old age.
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Wicked Witch "If I keep forced reincarnating that android, eventually a *useful* soul might move in..."
<Meanwhile, in the surrounding forest, a half-dozen newly awakened gnomes, elves, etc. are vaguely remembering having been an android working for a particularly short-tempered witch, for a brief period of time...>
I somehow feel that if metempsychosis where a thing and if I were to remember my past lives, this would pretty much be the story for most of them.
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In Pathfinder, reincarnating androids works the same way as for any other humanoid. (See Inner Sea Races, page 193.) They don't appear on the expanded table, though, so while you can reincarnate an android, reincarnate can't result in an android.
Ah, that's useful to know, as I don't have Inner Sea Races (yet).
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Ya but what kind of person tried to steal the body of what basically amounts to their child? Starfinder therapists must have their work cut out for them.Usually a resurrection spell can't resurrect someone who does not want to be brought back to life. An android that goes through renewal has chosen to pass on, and so doubtfully wants to be brought back from the dead. Since it "functions like raise dead" the subject will not return if they aren't willing to do so.*nods*
I can see most not wanting to but depending on whose resurrecting them they might allow themselves to be bright back.
???
True Resurrection gives you a whole new body.