Catching Up, Looking Ahead

Cheapy wrote:

The Minis Maniac wrote:

Let's face it. The commoner minis are super necessary for combat especially in urban campaigns, they may not be exciting. BUt when a fight breaks out on a city street, all these merchants, and commoners are bound to be in the way. As for dungeon dressing, again it makes life much easier to have physical representations of stuff.

I've found that just mancala pieces work amazing for that. Grab a handful, throw them on the board (literally), and there are commoners.

I also use the same method for difficult terrain and obstacles, which really are all the commoners are :D

What are mancala pieces? I am guessing they are similar to the colored stones we use for large groups of creatures/NPCs.

I believe they're those little colored plastic stones with a flat side.

Pokemon starter decks used to come with them. ^_^

Hobbun wrote:

Cheapy wrote:

The Minis Maniac wrote:

Let's face it. The commoner minis are super necessary for combat especially in urban campaigns, they may not be exciting. BUt when a fight breaks out on a city street, all these merchants, and commoners are bound to be in the way. As for dungeon dressing, again it makes life much easier to have physical representations of stuff.

I've found that just mancala pieces work amazing for that. Grab a handful, throw them on the board (literally), and there are commoners.

I also use the same method for difficult terrain and obstacles, which really are all the commoners are :D

What are mancala pieces? I am guessing they are similar to the colored stones we use for large groups of creatures/NPCs.

I believe they're those little colored plastic stones with a flat side.

Pokemon starter decks used to come with them. ^_^

Yeah, that sounds similar to the stones we use, including the (somewhat) flat side, although ours are glass.

They're probably glass, actually. My mistake. ^_^

I would really like to see a city watch mage. Every city watch should have one to deal with those crazy wizards.

EXCLUDING the dungeon dressing, including the case incentive.

Wait, did I miss an update somewhere saying the case incentive was a bar?

It was revealed at the PaizoCon banquet.

I'll reserve judgement until the full set is revealed, but a set containing mainly NPCs will be something I will skip.

Having purchased 2 Undead sets, I have enough Ghouls as well.

Also not stoked to hear about the bar. Can't ever picture putting that on the table.

I only ever place minis on the table for encounters. Everything else is roleplayed. Drawing a map for a tavern where people will only do talking would waste too much time.

Sorry Erik :( I do very much appreciate the effort you put into this, and it's a neat idea, so I hope it's successful for you, but as you said, you can't please everyone!

Do fights never happen in taverns in your campaign?

What are the chances of getting a Brambleson mini at some point down the road?

Do fights never happen in taverns in your campaign?

Can't speak for Curmudgeonly, but when compared to Dungeons, Castles, Roads, Generic Outdoors, Caves, City Streets, Temples, and Grave Yards? In my experience Taverns would be at the bottom of the list below even Air Ships and under water.

I accept that I can't love everything Erik elects to do. But I love his efforts and will support them with my cash regardless, so the line overall will continue.

What if instead of a tavern bar, the piece of Gargantuan terrain had been a Gatehouse? River crossing? Cave entrance? Row of market stalls? Crypt w/ removable roof? Would some other piece of terrain at home in a different setting have been more appealing, or is the problem that folks just don't want this kind of terrain in general? If you'd want any of this other stuff, I expect that would be a lot more likely if the bar does well.
Though I also can anticipate the obvious rebuttal: We'd rather have spectacular Gargantuan monsters. And I can understand that too. I want them both, but if I have to pick, and given how much terrain stuff I already have on hand thanks to Dwarven Forge and Fat Dragon Games, I'd probably go for the monsters.

What if instead of a tavern bar, the piece of Gargantuan terrain had been a Gatehouse? River crossing? Cave entrance? Row of market stalls? Crypt w/ removable roof? Would some other piece of terrain at home in a different setting have been more appealing, or is the problem that folks just don't want this kind of terrain in general? If you'd want any of this other stuff, I expect that would be a lot more likely if the bar does well.

Though I also can anticipate the obvious rebuttal: We'd rather have spectacular Gargantuan monsters. And I can understand that too. I want them both, but if I have to pick, and given how much terrain stuff I already have on hand thanks to Dwarven Forge and Fat Dragon Games, I'd probably go for the monsters.

I believe they wanted a "removable roof"-type bar, but it wasn't anywhere near cost-effective (see Dancing Hut). ^_^

What if instead of a tavern bar, the piece of Gargantuan terrain had been a Gatehouse? River crossing? Cave entrance? Row of market stalls? Crypt w/ removable roof? Would some other piece of terrain at home in a different setting have been more appealing, or is the problem that folks just don't want this kind of terrain in general? If you'd want any of this other stuff, I expect that would be a lot more likely if the bar does well.

Though I also can anticipate the obvious rebuttal: We'd rather have spectacular Gargantuan monsters. And I can understand that too. I want them both, but if I have to pick, and given how much terrain stuff I already have on hand thanks to Dwarven Forge and Fat Dragon Games, I'd probably go for the monsters.

In my perfect world, I'd have preferred dungeon dressing pieces to be in their own separate product line (like the iconic heroes series).

By including them in the regular cases, I miss out on a few monsters but don't get enough dungeon dressing for a "proper" scene anyway.

The inclusion of dungeon dressing pieces is spreading the line a little too broadly, for my tastes (though I appreciate the experimentation so will be getting a case anyhow). It's especially visible with the premium figures, since they are so rare that the opportunity cost of a dungeon dressing "gargantuan" figure is obvious, but to me it's the same issue regardless of size.

What if instead of a tavern bar, the piece of Gargantuan terrain had been a Gatehouse? River crossing? Cave entrance? Row of market stalls? Crypt w/ removable roof? Would some other piece of terrain at home in a different setting have been more appealing, or is the problem that folks just don't want this kind of terrain in general?

Honestly, none of those sound particular enticing, but they would be better than a tavern bar.

I can draw all of that stuff rather quickly. It's not high on my priority list to get terrain pieces. I have even found terrain pieces more problematic than just drawing. The Dwarven Forge stuff has proven completely impractical to me in its setup, taking far too long to get a castle layout for example put together.

I need monsters. I need figures I will use in combat. Non-combat NPCs would never see the light of day.

I think the bar is fine as a one-off, and I appreciate the novelty. It's nice to see them trying new things. I'd probably prefer a Gargantuan monster (or my two-Huges idea) most of the time. It's all about the specific model.

It's a matter of... case-by-case judgment. rimshot

I like the idea of dungeon dressing as a separate line, but other than the Iconic Heroes sets, those seem to be foundering. I'd also like to see larger set sizes, RotRL-style... but again, whatever's economically feasible.

Also, while I can tolerate a few more ghouls... please, please slow down on the goblinoids. I was all right with the Lost Coast ones, since they were kind of specific (and AP-relevant). Ambivalent-at-best about bugbears, honestly.

Finally, please don't take any of this too harshly. I'm still super excited for these sets. I know having a ton of DDM makes me an outlier, so I don't mind some redundant material. (I wouldn't mind seeing some Golarion drow, in fact.)

Thank you. ^_^

I'm happy to see some support for "urban monsters", i.e. NPCs. I will likely use the bar far more than I've used the Rune Giant or the Deskari case incentives.

I wanted to add my voice to being ok with the bar incentive. Other than Deskari have not yet used any of the case incentives at the game table. I went into a kickstarter to get a bar and other dungeon dressings but that kickstarter is years late. So actually very happy with the dungeon dressing minis as I know I we'll be getting them on time and with the usual high quality.

I also wanted to say the two huge instead of a single gargantuan is a really good idea. I more often make use of huge monsters over a gargantuan. So all for that if it could be made to happen.

Last comment is for Erik. I know I complained about those darn farm animals before but still have a case subscription. I am overall very happy with the line. Was just comparing the old DDM line to the latest paizo ones and wizkids mins are so much better. So keep it up. :)

Erik;
I wanted to say thank you for this set. I use non NPCs in encounters, this set is absolutely perfect! I can only hope for non human NPCs too at some point.

I'm happy to see some support for "urban monsters", i.e. NPCs. I will likely use the bar far more than I've used the Rune Giant or the Deskari case incentives.

Have to agree with davrion here. In our campaigns, I have been in more situations where we’ve had combats in taverns or in town in general (with NPCs), than fighting against a Rune Giant (never fought one yet) or a CR 15+ creature.

So the tavern, as well as the common folk, will have a lot of use in our campaigns. And where I don’t think we should have multiple sets dedicated to common folk, I do hope we see them split up in future sets in general.

And I don’t think this should be the norm on case incentives involving dungeon dressings, I wouldn’t be opposed to it happening again. What I would actually love to see is a merchant wagon/caravan with horses. Don’t know how many times we’ve escorted merchants and have gotten into combats on the road or at a campsite.

Erik;

I wanted to say thank you for this set. I use non NPCs in encounters, this set is absolutely perfect! I can only hope for non human NPCs too at some point.

Seconded. While I probably won't opt for a full case, a bunch of normal people is overdue in my collection.

starphoenix wrote:

Erik;

I wanted to say thank you for this set. I use non NPCs in encounters, this set is absolutely perfect! I can only hope for non human NPCs too at some point.

Seconded. While I probably won't opt for a full case, a bunch of normal people is overdue in my collection.

Thirded. I love seeding the board with noncombatant NPCs, statues, and other set dressing to keep my players on-edge during important parts of scenarios, modules, or adventures (APs or home game). If you only put stuff on the board when they're going to fight said stuff, they OOC know when to start thinking tactically - but if every time they engage with a NPC in conversation there are minis on the board... they have to start thinking "do we really want to fight here, or should we just talk?" - either way, it's a boon to my GM style.

If you only put stuff on the board when they're going to fight said stuff, they OOC know when to start thinking tactically - but if every time they engage with a NPC in conversation there are minis on the board... they have to start thinking "do we really want to fight here, or should we just talk?"

Agree 100%. If you only selectively use maps/miniatures, then players will act on those cues - minis on maps means they are supposed to fight.

"Anghazan Idol" is also the name of Golarion's second most popular singing competition. (Nearly twice as many viewers scry "The Bard" these days.)

I just set up a subscription - my first case from paizo will be Dungeons Deep.

I'm excited to see what else is on the horizon for the Rusty Dragon Inn and for the next sets of the Iconics line. I like commoner minis and have too few. Looking forward to adding some in this set.

I'll reserve judgement until the full set is revealed, but a set containing mainly NPCs will be something I will skip.

Let's be clear here: just because the set is called "The Rusty Dragon Inn," it does not mean that it's all NPCs and no monsters, any more than a set called "Dungeons Deep" is all monsters and no NPCs. Not every mini is tied to the theme in every set; the key to the theme in *this* set is just that a lot of the NPC-types are folks you'd expect to find in a tavern.

Every set we do will have a *lot* of monsters and a *lot* of non-monsters.

What I would actually love to see is a merchant wagon/caravan with horses. Don’t know how many times we’ve escorted merchants and have gotten into combats on the road or at a campsite.

Hobbun, there's a Kickstarter for something like that that's due to fulfill any time now. Here's a link to it. Once it's fulfilled, I'm sure they'll be available for normal purchase.

Hobbun, there's a Kickstarter for something like that that's due to fulfill any time now. Here's a link to it. Once it's fulfilled, I'm sure they'll be available for normal purchase.

Yup. Jonathan has pretty upfront about his intention that the Kickstarters are to get the molds made so the products can sell normally afterwards.

I'm pretty much hoping he'll keep at it, and become a major source of props, at a (very) reasonable price.

I find the more gaming goodies you have, the more synergy there is, and the more you want. Having other sources of minis and props in no way diminishes my thirst for Paizo's, I'll say.

I like the look of this set so much, it has me saving up to start a subscription with it. :)

I'm currently in a demon themed campaign (homebrew). While we now have more than enough demons to cover just about any encounters, those evil buggers are constantly drawing in innocents to their demented plans. I can use all the city folk I can get my hands on to represent the battles we are fighting. I vote yes, to sets like the Rusty Dragon.

Hobbun wrote:

What I would actually love to see is a merchant wagon/caravan with horses. Don’t know how many times we’ve escorted merchants and have gotten into combats on the road or at a campsite.

Hobbun, there's a Kickstarter for something like that that's due to fulfill any time now. Here's a link to it. Once it's fulfilled, I'm sure they'll be available for normal purchase.

Thanks for the link.

I googled his website (TabletopProps) and saw the pictures from the Kickstarters (wagon and tent), but no written blogs or updates saying on what he plans to do.

I hope he does eventually start selling them, as I liked what I saw from the wagon KS (too bad I didn’t know about it). I especially like that you can take it apart. I also like the campfire, we have used pseudo campfires more times than I can count.

As case incentives go, I've used the the Green Dragon and White Dragon as adversaries.

My group is in the 6th chapter of RorRL, so I'll soon use the Rune Giant and Blue Dragon (a couple times). I also might use the Shemhazian Demon.

I'll save Deskari for when I run WotR someday.

If it had been available a little earlier, I had a need for a skeletal dragon like Brinebones.

A tavern bar is the kind of thing I'm more inclined to draw on a flipmat than to use a miniature. My group generally doesn't use miniatures out of combat.

-Skeld

My group is in the 6th chapter of RorRL, so I'll soon use the Rune Giant and Blue Dragon (a couple times). I also might use the Shemhazian Demon.

Just curious, but what are you going to use the Shemhaizan Demon for?

I am going to be running this AP in the near future, and where he’s not in the book, just curious what you would be substituting/adding him in for?

If it’s needed, you can spoiler it for those who haven’t played RotRL yet.

Cleanthes wrote:

Hobbun wrote:

What I would actually love to see is a merchant wagon/caravan with horses. Don’t know how many times we’ve escorted merchants and have gotten into combats on the road or at a campsite.

Hobbun, there's a Kickstarter for something like that that's due to fulfill any time now. Here's a link to it. Once it's fulfilled, I'm sure they'll be available for normal purchase.

Thanks for the link.

I googled his website (TabletopProps) and saw the pictures from the Kickstarters (wagon and tent), but no written blogs or updates saying on what he plans to do.

I hope he does eventually start selling them, as I liked what I saw from the wagon KS (too bad I didn’t know about it). I especially like that you can take it apart. I also like the campfire, we have used pseudo campfires more times than I can count.

He discusses his progress and plans in the comments on that Kickstarter. If I recall correctly, stuff should be hitting the water from China soon, if it hasn't already. I don't think he's going to have a problem fulfilling, anyway.

Unfortunately KS doesn’t allow you to read comments to a specific KS unless you have donated to it, so I can’t read them.

I’ll have to keep looking on his website to see if he opens up orders.

Thanks.

Hobbun -

-Skeld

Hobbun -

** spoiler omitted **

-Skeld

Hmm, well how about that.

Thanks.

It was revealed at the PaizoCon banquet.

And that's totally why I never heard it. :/ For like 2 reasons. Thanks for the assist Vic.

But I like the idea of a bar mini. I haven't picked up any of the dungeon dressing pieces yet, but those are ones my wife and I were very excited to see get made. We'd even backed a KS full of dungeon dressing type items, and well, having more is not a problem for us. :)

Curmudgeonly wrote:

I'll reserve judgement until the full set is revealed, but a set containing mainly NPCs will be something I will skip.

Let's be clear here: just because the set is called "The Rusty Dragon Inn," it does not mean that it's all NPCs and no monsters, any more than a set called "Dungeons Deep" is all monsters and no NPCs. Not every mini is tied to the theme in every set; the key to the theme in *this* set is just that a lot of the NPC-types are folks you'd expect to find in a tavern.

Every set we do will have a *lot* of monsters and a *lot* of non-monsters.

Hence why I will reserve judgement until the full set is revealed :)

I understand what you guys are trying to do, and I'm glad to see there are people here interested. But if I had to guess right now though, I'd likely buy individual minis of the monsters than a full set to avoid all the non-combat NPCs. They will literally just never make an appearance on my table.

Vic Wertz wrote:

Curmudgeonly wrote:

I'll reserve judgement until the full set is revealed, but a set containing mainly NPCs will be something I will skip.

Let's be clear here: just because the set is called "The Rusty Dragon Inn," it does not mean that it's all NPCs and no monsters, any more than a set called "Dungeons Deep" is all monsters and no NPCs. Not every mini is tied to the theme in every set; the key to the theme in *this* set is just that a lot of the NPC-types are folks you'd expect to find in a tavern.

Every set we do will have a *lot* of monsters and a *lot* of non-monsters.

Hence why I will reserve judgement until the full set is revealed :)

I understand what you guys are trying to do, and I'm glad to see there are people here interested. But if I had to guess right now though, I'd likely buy individual minis of the monsters than a full set to avoid all the non-combat NPCs. They will literally just never make an appearance on my table.

You could try splitting a case with someone (depending on what the final set list looks like, finding a partner, and all that). ^_^

I just wanted to chime in with a counterpoint - expanding the scope of my collection is always helpful, especially with large quantities I can use as crowds. Even though I have hundreds and hundreds of minis dating back to the D&D minis days, I still never have enough plain folk.

I will find many, many uses for the bar, as well, so I'm pleased as punch with this set.

One problem I've noticed is that happy people are happy, and thus less inclined to comment, whereas disgruntled people are unhappy, and thus more inclined to comment. So I wanted to give you a "happy" comment.

In an unrelated note, the "mouth horror" is perfectly timed for my home campaign. Not that I've been reading Tome of Horrors 4 or anything ....

I'll find use for the bar and the NPCs but, and this is a big but ( I like big 'buts' and I'll tell you why) I really hope Wizkids master the painting of faces. After 9(?) sets some of the ones in Dungeons Deep still have very over painted or blobby faces, especially the dwarves. I know they can do better, just look at the iconics line. Would be a real shame to make some really nice NPCs that people have requested often, or based on the brilliant art from the codeces, then have those scary blob faces.

I agree.

I gave my full accounting on my feelings on the Dungeons Deep product thread, but I really feel by this time WizKids should have nailed down being able to paint faces. At least paint them where they look decent, although they ‘can’ look spectacular as shown in the iconic line.

So I guess I just don’t understand if they have the capability to paint that way with the iconic line, why humanoid faces a lot of times look quite bad in the main sets. What is done so differently in the iconic line compared to the main sets?

And yes, Dungeons Deep is the ninth main set in the line. Main set being the 45+ minis.

So I guess I just don’t understand if they have the capability to paint that way with the iconic line, why humanoid faces a lot of times look quite bad in the main sets. What is done so differently in the iconic line compared to the main sets?

Quite simply, the figures in a standard booster are priced at $15.99 for 4 figures, meaning a $4/figure average, while the Iconic Heroes minis are $29.99 for 6 figures, meaning a $5/figure average, which is to say they cost about 25% more per figure. And pretty much all that cost goes into additional paint operations, including additional touch-up work.

(But that *doesn't* mean that WizKids could get Iconic Heroes-quality paint ops in the regular set if they just raised the price to $19.99 per booster; other factors also come into play here, including the limited selection and low relative volume of the IH set.)

Hobbun wrote:

So I guess I just don’t understand if they have the capability to paint that way with the iconic line, why humanoid faces a lot of times look quite bad in the main sets. What is done so differently in the iconic line compared to the main sets?

Quite simply, the figures in a standard booster are priced at $15.99 for 4 figures, meaning a $4/figure average, while the Iconic Heroes minis are $29.99 for 6 figures, meaning a $5/figure average, which is to say they cost about 25% more per figure. And pretty much all that cost goes into additional paint operations, including additional touch-up work.

(But that *doesn't* mean that WizKids could get Iconic Heroes-quality paint ops in the regular set if they just raised the price to $19.99 per booster; other factors also come into play here, including the limited selection and low relative volume of the IH set.)

Vic, from what I remember reading in Erik's posts previously is when the new (and improved) digital method was introduced with the iconic line, it was going to be introduced with the regular sets, as well, and therefore improve the quality of the figures overall.

But that hasn't happened with the faces of the humanoids as of yet. Are you basically saying we are SoL in regards to 'less than stellar' paint jobs (with the faces) with the main sets?

If so, that is very disappointing to hear.

Hobbun wrote:

So I guess I just don’t understand if they have the capability to paint that way with the iconic line, why humanoid faces a lot of times look quite bad in the main sets. What is done so differently in the iconic line compared to the main sets?

Quite simply, the figures in a standard booster are priced at $15.99 for 4 figures, meaning a $4/figure average, while the Iconic Heroes minis are $29.99 for 6 figures, meaning a $5/figure average, which is to say they cost about 25% more per figure. And pretty much all that cost goes into additional paint operations, including additional touch-up work.

(But that *doesn't* mean that WizKids could get Iconic Heroes-quality paint ops in the regular set if they just raised the price to $19.99 per booster; other factors also come into play here, including the limited selection and low relative volume of the IH set.)

Would it be possible to take a hybrid approach? Step up painting on the high-detail humanoid minis specifically, raising the cost of certain minis, and then raising booster prices by a lower margin?

Vic, from what I remember reading in Erik's posts previously is when the new (and improved) digital method was introduced with the iconic line, it was going to be introduced with the regular sets, as well, and therefore improve the quality of the figures overall.

But that hasn't happened with the faces of the humanoids as of yet. Are you basically saying we are SoL in regards to 'less than stellar' paint jobs (with the faces) with the main sets?

If so, that is very disappointing to hear.

I'm not saying that at all! Sculpting is one thing, and painting is another. It's certainly true that what might seem to be a paint problem is sometimes a sculpt problem (melty-face Feiya, for example), and processes that improve sculpts will therefore help some of these problems. So should moving to digital sculpts help? Sure. But are digital scuplts that the only reason that Iconic Heroes look so great? Absolutely not. I'd say it's not even the *main* reason. The main reason that the Iconic Heroes sets looks so great is because they spend more time and money painting every single figure.

Would it be possible to take a hybrid approach? Step up painting on the high-detail humanoid minis specifically, raising the cost of certain minis, and then raising booster prices by a lower margin?

Would it be *possible*? I don't know. Stepping up painting doesn't just cost more—it takes more time, and the time that WizKids has to do a given set in a factory that they don't own may not be as easy to expand as you might think. Only their production management would be able to answer that.

But I am pretty sure it's not *desirable*. Look through any lengthy discussion thread about Pathfinder Battles, and you will find a lot of people who feel it's already too expensive. I'm pretty confident that increasing the price would drive away more customers than increasing the number of paint operations would attract.

Kalindlara wrote:

Would it be possible to take a hybrid approach? Step up painting on the high-detail humanoid minis specifically, raising the cost of certain minis, and then raising booster prices by a lower margin?

Would it be *possible*? I don't know. Stepping up painting doesn't just cost more—it takes more time, and the time that WizKids has to do a given set in a factory that they don't own may not be as easy to expand as you might think. Only their production management would be able to answer that.

But I am pretty sure it's not *desirable*. Look through any lengthy discussion thread about Pathfinder Battles, and you will find a lot of people who feel it's already too expensive. I'm pretty confident that increasing the price would drive away more customers than increasing the number of paint operations would attract.

I absolutely love the Pathfinder Battles line and everyone behind it (Eric that goes to you) and all you great guys and gals at Paizo.

When i pay $16 for 4 painted minis (1 large and 3 medium or small) that is only $4 per figure (probably $3 per small or medium and $7 for the large one).

I think that is a very fair price.

That said i mainly want monsters. Other people want townspeople or dwarves or...

I think it would be a great idea to split the line into 2 different ones:

-Monsters

and

-People (humans, elves, dwarves, gnomes, halflings and so on)

I think that way the people who paint the minis could specialize more according to their talents.

But probably it has to be a mixed bag of everything to sell to everyone.

What i can not understand is that some human minis look great
(City Watch Sniper, Brodert Quink, Shoanti Gladiator or Lord Mayor Grobaras from The Lost Coast for example), while others (Half-Elf Haughty Avenger, Etainia or Kiramor the Forest Shadow) look like their faces melted.

Still i won´t complain overly as long as it is a small percentage of the minis (which it is).

Thank you for work and calm and friendly answers (that can´t be easy all the time). :-)

I hope the bar mini looks a little like this: ;-)

http://www.dwarvenforge.com/kickstarter-2015-photo-gallery/nggallery/thumbn ails/page/2

2nd and 3rd last pictures.