Unchained Skills and Feats

Combining sorcerer and oracle sounds like fun to me. Sorcerer with mysteries or oracle with bloodline powers.

Alexander Augunas wrote:

Arachnofiend wrote:

Nah, I'm not expecting spells. That doesn't change the fact that slapping a bloodline or a mystery on a wizard is going to be more useful to that wizard than some feats.

Mysteries are Charisma-based: not useful for the wizard.

Not all of them are charisma based -- some of them reference no stats at all. You just have to be very picky about which revelations you take.

Depending on how the multi classing works, I doubt wizards would mind getting the Mental Acuity revelation off the Lore mystery, off the top of my head. Get it in place of your 7th level feat, and never look back?

Regarding balance issues with Paizo material vs 3rd party material, many DMs I know seem to be in a mode where they begrudgingly allow most Paizo materials because they're "official" but are disinclined to allow 3rd party material in the first place. I've rarely played with groups which felt comfortable adding much 3rd party stuff in terms of rules for classes, feats, and spells. I've seen much greater uptake rates for 3rd party monsters, which are more in the DM's toolbox, and I think that most folks I know wouldn't have any problem at all with 3rd party adventures (even if they included a few unique or custom monsters)

I haven't used HeroLab myself and generally don't find doing the math and sheets for my own PCs that troubling. One thing I'd really like to see from Paizo or a 3rd party though would be a very accurate monster customizing tool where you can apply templates, hit dice advancement, etc and get the tool to output an accurate stat block. I've seen fan made template adding tools in the past, but unfortunately they were all pretty glitchy. I'll be running some adventures again soon, and customizing monsters can be a real time sink.

I for one would like to welcome our now supremely attuned charisma multiclass overlords. Maybe specifically the Oracles, as the crucial feats to the SAD Lunar/Lore/Nature builds are still available pretty much when you want them to be.

I'm just stuck on /what/ to combine them with, since they seem to be doing perfectly fine by themselves..

It depends on what exactly is offered of course, but off-hand:

-Paladin, if it offers Smite. Doubly so if it offers Divine Grace, since you're losing one less feat. If it offers Lay On Hands then you get to boost the Life Oracle.

-Bard's Inspire Courage, for a support and buff oriented Oracle

-Sorcerer bloodlines. Abyssal would be a particularly strong choice, for a bonus to summons and melee combat alike, but there are a lot of options.

-If an option to use the old-style Summoner exists, and their Variant Multiclassing includes their SLA... we can certainly all hail our Chalords.

-Wizard for Divination's powers helps in massive and obvious ways

-If Magus grants Spell Combat (and lord I hope it doesn't), then that's going to be the default for everybody

-If an option to use the old-style Summoner exists, and their Variant Multiclassing includes their SLA... we can certainly all hail our Chalords.

If a Conjuration Wizard (or summoning focused cleric, druid or sorcerer) could benefit from the Summoner SLAs (and faster casting time and 10x greater durations!, at the cost of only having one such summon out at a time), that would rock on toast.

Yeah, I highly doubt that we'll get that option. But I was spitballing because we have no idea what we'll get.

Honestly... The only thing that stops me from using more 3pp stuff is that they don't usually have HeroLab support. :/

This. Oh, so much this. :)

The only thing really stopping me from using 3pp stuff is simply money. I've encountered and had to deal with multiple 3pp stuff in Pathfinder that isn't very well balanced, but I've also dealt with just as much stuff that is fairly well balanced with a few outliers (such as the 1001 Spells, for example).

I've got a limited budget, so when I look at 3pp, I view it as something like, 'Do I really need this or can I get by without it?' More often than not, I don't truly need it and I can make things work even if it isn't perfectly accurate. Plus there's always that fear of 'Is what I'm buying actually worth it?' I know a lot of people seem to view Endzeitgeist as a kind of 'Word of God' when it comes to reviewing a product, but I inherently mistrust anyone with that kind of following in a community.

I'd probably be more inclined to buy 3pp if I could get my hands on the products and thumb through them for awhile. Doing that would let me actually decide if I like it and let me make some rough estimations on whether or not it's good or balanced. Unfortunately, many 3pp are digital (printing is expensive!), so this is very unlikely to ever happen.

Before now I was on the fence, but now that I've read this, well lets just say I know where the 'and a half' of my Easter time and a half is going.

For me, I stay away from 3pp stuff because I usually can't read it before I buy it. One of the things I like about Pathfinder is the ability to see everything online and retroactively support the stuff I'm using.

For me, I stay away from 3pp stuff because I usually can't read it before I buy it. One of the things I like about Pathfinder is the ability to see everything online and retroactively support the stuff I'm using.

This is true. It's a kind of catch-22 situation, though, because it's hard to build up the trust that Paizo has without experiencing the stuff for free (or for a long time, as Paizo was originally built out of 3.X), but it's impossible for most 3pp to stay in business without charging before-hand (as they lack the guaranteed customer base to do things openly).

If I had a few million to spare, I'd just shove it at people and pay to put their stuff out for free. Alas, I lack anything like that... *shakes fist at unreal dream*

Most of the best stuff is on the SRD.

Yeah, if I had unlimited funds I'd be more than willing to just support everything that seemed interesting to me. Given my current financial situation, though, I can't really afford to spend money on stuff that I don't know for sure is really good.

And the winner of Pathfinder Unchained is... the warsighted oracle of battle.

• Full spellcasting in heavy armor while wielding martial weapons: 3rd-level revelation.
  
• Adding your casting stat bonus to all your saving throws: 5th-level feat.
  
• Background skills to offset dumping your Intelligence: Free at 1st level.
  
• Barbarian rage gained through variant multiclassing: 3rd-level feat.
  
• Martial flexibility to grab stamina powers on the fly: 1st-level class feature.
  
• The look on your GM's face when you emerge from the gate to your personal demiplane, shrug off a few readied attacks with your awesome saves and your full plate armor, cast miracle, grab any three stamina powers of your choice, start raging, and take a few attacks of opportunity with your greatsword, all in the same round and all using only your own powers: priceless.

** spoiler omitted **

Re: Unchained.

And the winner of Pathfinder Unchained is... the warsighted oracle of battle.

• Full spellcasting in heavy armor while wielding martial weapons: 3rd-level revelation.
  
• Adding your casting stat bonus to all your saving throws: 5th-level feat.
  
• Background skills to offset dumping your Intelligence: Free at 1st level.
  
• Barbarian rage gained through variant multiclassing: 3rd-level feat.
  
• Martial flexibility to grab stamina powers on the fly: 1st-level class feature.
  
• The look on your GM's face when you emerge from the gate to your personal demiplane, shrug off a few readied attacks with your awesome saves and your full plate armor, cast miracle, grab any three stamina powers of your choice, start raging, and take a few attacks of opportunity with your greatsword, all in the same round and all using only your own powers: priceless.

Don't forget the built in rage cycling starting at L5 with the Lame curse.

If you get rage powers, Lesser Spirit Totem and the like meshes pretty okay with putting your Charisma stat to use, although you could also argue that the standard Beast Totem might serve better still.

Be a Half-Orc with Lesser Beast Totem together with Tusked/Fate's Favored as traits, and tear up the early levels with Divine Favor + Rage, and three natural attacks out of the gate.

Nah, I'm not expecting spells. That doesn't change the fact that slapping a bloodline or a mystery on a wizard is going to be more useful to that wizard than some feats.

OK, I'd have to concede that.

some bardic performances and versatile performance to represent the time you unexpectedly spent studying music...Want to be a fighter who dabbles in divination magic such that he always acts on the surprise round or vexes his foes with hexes? You're covered. Want to be a druid who specializes in taking out dragons as her favored enemy or flies into a rage when the natural world is in danger?

Now of those, two are self-evidently not that useful (Conjurer/God-wizards (the consensus strongest options) really don't care for favoured enemy and really don't want rage. Performance, both bardic and versatile, aren't that much use - a bit of party utility but there's arguably better stuff to throw half your feats on.

Arachnofiend wrote:

Ventnor wrote:

Joe M. wrote:

Cthulhudrew wrote:

Devilkiller wrote:

Paizo is immune to criticism and I don't think the discussion page for a new book is an appropriate place to discuss a new book.

Slight modification, but otherwise, I nominate this quote for the new forum motto! :D

Fixed that. :-P

Double-fixed.

m-m-m-mega fixed.

High score.

Please.

Back to Fighters and background skills, I guess that we don't have a detailed breakdown of which skills are on that list yet, and maybe that's part of the reason folks disagree so strongly on whether or not the bonus ranks will really help the Fighter with skills.

I think being able to give your Fighter a little extra personality without sacrificing Perception and such seems nice. I could also imagine mechanical benefits though. For instance, if Craft is a background skill this would make it a lot easier for a Dwarf Fighter to invest in Master Craftsman, which seems like an iconic choice to me. Putting max ranks in a Craft skill would be a pretty big investment for somebody who probably only gets 1-3 skill ranks per level, but if you have extra ranks to put in Craft skills anyhow it would be less of a sacrifice. With the new variant multiclassing maybe you'll also be able to pick up bardic performances, qualify for Discordant Voice with 10 free ranks in Perform, and do some sort of dwarven smithing chant during battle, maybe something like:

"As fer ye goblins I'll hit in the head
I'm swinging me hammer to make ye all dead!
I'll cave in your skulls as I'm drinking me brew
Cuz smithin and killin are things that I do!
I'll slay your whole tribe and I'll do it today
You'll soon know the truth of these things that I say!"

I'd bet there are other potential uses out there, and I wouldn't be surprised if Unchained creates even more. Even if it somehow turns out that the Fighter is a big loser in Unchained and unexpectedly emerges even further "behind the curve" than he went in I think I'll still probably like the variant rule for background skills. Even classes with lots of skill ranks like Bards and Rogues might be a little more interesting if every rank weren't chosen to maximize its effect on exploration and combat. That's not to say that they always are now, but if they're not you're often "giving up" something to have that extra RP tidbit.

The problem with the bonus ranks is that, being for background skills, by definition they should rarely-if-ever help the Fighter. Profession (Sailor) is nice when it comes up, but in most games it really doesn't-- and that's actually one of the more useful ones. If your background is that your Fighter is also a singer... well, that's wasted.

Now, the difference is that before your singing-Fighter would probably just never make a skill check. Now he can! The one time in a game that it happens. This is, incidentally, is why personally I doubt that Craft will be on the background list-- but hey, maybe I'm wrong. I hope I am.

What helps them more is the skill consolidation, though the degree to which it helps will vary based on how they're brought together.

How I hope the background skills work is... Anything NOT used straight up in combat or the "adventure" parts of adventuring. Like, profession and lore and stuff? Sure. Flavorful. Know what else is flavorful? If your fighter can talk to other creatures without immediately making them all attack them. So. Diplomacy. Any social checks really. These new skills are meant to encourage roleplaying, right? Well all too often, I see talk about this role in the party that shouldn't necessarily exist called a Face. In my opinion though, any character should be able to talk to any character. There shouldn't be a "oh I have more ranks, let me handle this" on talking. All characters have something to say sometimes.

Edit: So I guess what I'm saying is... Even if the skills I want to be on it aren't , I might add them for my players.

Ventnor wrote:

Could Hybrid classes use the Variant Multiclassing rules? Like, say, making an impromptu Death Knight-eque character by sprinkling some Necromancy onto the Slayer chassis?

I was wondering that myself. I don't see why not since the new multiclassing option replaces feats.

So we can now kinda/sorta have a triple class?

A Hexcrafter Magus is already kinda/sorta a wizard/fighter/witch. With variant multiclassing I guess we could go for a fourth kinda/sorta class. :)

Snip

Shouldn't that be:

• Full spellcasting in heavy armour while wielding martial weapons: 3rd-level revelation.
  
• Adding your casting stat bonus to all your saving throws: 5th-level feat.
  
• Background skills to offset dumping your Intelligence: Free at 1st level.
  
• Barbarian rage gained through variant multiclassing: 3rd, 7th, 11th, 15th, and 19th level feats.
  
• Martial flexibility to grab stamina powers on the fly: 1st-level class feature.
  

To me, spending one feat is a major difference to spending 50% of your feats.

It is difficult to say what class combinations will win out the most when we don't even know what the variant multiclassing rules are. Mark's paragraph is basically an elevator pitch, not a comprehensive mechanical treatise.

Speculation is fun, but let's not go on a character-building-rampage without anyone having actually seen what the option gives you. I like speculation, but it makes me sad when people's expectations aren't met.

It is difficult to say what class combinations will win out the most when we don't even know what the variant multiclassing rules are. Mark's paragraph is basically an elevator pitch, not a comprehensive mechanical treatise.

Speculation is fun, but let's not go on a character-building-rampage without anyone having actually seen what the option gives you. I like speculation, but it makes me sad when people's expectations aren't met.

Normally, I'd be right with you, and you're right that I can tell from this thread that people's imagined versions of the alternate system vary wildly with each other. But for Unchained, if the combination of the blog's elevator pitch with someone's imagination produces something that they love, and then the offering in Unchained doesn't let them do exactly that thing, why not mod the mod to do it anyway if the group agrees that it's cool? It's Unchained, so you already have a group that's excited about using mods!

In that sense, even though of course I recommend it anyway with all our books, this is really the one book where explicitly the imagination and modding ideas that the book inspires are exactly the point of the book. We want you to use Unchained to help you find the best way to play Pathfinder possible for your group, whether that's exactly any of our rules or your own tweaks (heck, for several of the mods in the book, we actually step back and offer several tweaks and mods to the mods of our own to get you started).

Alexander Augunas wrote:

It is difficult to say what class combinations will win out the most when we don't even know what the variant multiclassing rules are. Mark's paragraph is basically an elevator pitch, not a comprehensive mechanical treatise.

Speculation is fun, but let's not go on a character-building-rampage without anyone having actually seen what the option gives you. I like speculation, but it makes me sad when people's expectations aren't met.

Normally, I'd be right with you, and you're right that I can tell from this thread that people's imagined versions of the alternate system vary wildly with each other. But for Unchained, if the combination of the blog's elevator pitch with someone's imagination produces something that they love, and then the offering in Unchained doesn't let them do exactly that thing, why not mod the mod to do it anyway if the group agrees that it's cool? It's Unchained, so you already have a group that's excited about using mods!

In that sense, even though of course I recommend it anyway with all our books, this is really the one book where explicitly the imagination and modding ideas that the book inspires are exactly the point of the book. We want you to use Unchained to help you find the best way to play Pathfinder possible for your group, whether that's exactly any of our rules or your own tweaks (heck, for several of the mods in the book, we actually step back and offer several tweaks and mods to the mods of our own to get you started).

It'll be a little hard for me, since I use HeroLab pretty heavily and never learned how to program it.

But I like the philosophy regardless. :)

HeroLab is a crutch for the weak.

I mean that only half-jokingly. There seem to be too many people who either pass up a bunch of good stuff because HeroLab doesn't have it, or rely on it far too heavily for building characters (the weekly "HeroLab told me I could do this but the rulebook says no! Which is right?" thread).

I don't necessarily treat it as a hard-and-fast restriction on what I'll use or how I'll rule.

It makes things a lot easier, partially because buff/debuff is common in my games. The search feature is also really helpful. Plus, running four campaigns (and playing casters in two others) is a lot of work to start with.

I'm well-versed in the rules, so I can generally spot the holes or errors. In a dispute between HeroLab and the rulebook, I'd either go with the book or (if I like HeroLab's version better) just houserule it. For example, HeroLab allows Wildblooded bloodlines to interact with Eldritch Heritage and Crossblooded - which I prefer anyway.

Just my 2 cents. :)

This variant multiclassing sounds exactly like 4e's multiclassing. I'm not complaining, not at all, but I do remember all the complaining that happened in 4e.

I wonder how or if tools like Hero Lab will deal with the variant rules in Unchained. I don't use Hero Lab myself, but since a lot of folks I play with do I suppose that there might be some unexpected resistance to Unchained if people can't incorporate the variants into Hero Lab. I'm guessing this is something which will likely be addressed though.

I think the 4e issues were that early on, you didn't have the option to not use the 4e inspired things. They were the only thing you had. Then later on, you could do things like regular multiclass and whatnot, but it was too late. They had already lost us.

This variant multiclassing sounds exactly like 4e's multiclassing. I'm not complaining, not at all, but I do remember all the complaining that happened in 4e.

Having the option of one way versus another is pretty big, though. My main complaint and reason I don't multiclass my characters is because it's so binary. Having some mix-in abilities that doesn't supplant normal progression addresses that complaint.

I wonder how or if tools like Hero Lab will deal with the variant rules in Unchained. I don't use Hero Lab myself, but since a lot of folks I play with do I suppose that there might be some unexpected resistance to Unchained if people can't incorporate the variants into Hero Lab. I'm guessing this is something which will likely be addressed though.

I imagine there will be room for most of the options in Hero Lab. It already lets you enable things like the Ultimate Combat armor DR system, and hero points.

I just hope they are already working on the integration. Can't wait to use this stuff, and I am spoiled by HL.

This variant multiclassing sounds exactly like 4e's multiclassing. I'm not complaining, not at all, but I do remember all the complaining that happened in 4e.

The big difference is that 4e offered a lot less of the other class.

You spent a feat for, realistically, the option to trade a power for a power. You got some small stuff, but certainly nothing that was the focus of the class. And then you could spend more feats to make better trades.

Here, you spend your feats and you're getting, it looks like, a hefty portion of the secondary class' goods. Certainly not all of them, but enough to make the trade immediately noticeable and worthwhile.

Really this is more like 4e's Hybrid system, which I always found far superior to the standard multiclassing in terms of actually doing what you want.

Rynjin wrote:

Mark Seifter wrote:

Rynjin wrote:

Mark Seifter wrote:

Scavion wrote:

Oh my.

I feel like this might force a bit of a conflict into the party, honestly.

Many of the 6 level classes (which, near as I can tell, are some of the most popular) rely on minute/level buff to function at full steam. Whereas previously everyone was on the same page, I can see now half the party wanting to push on while their buffs are up and the other half wanting to rest to restore Stamina.

I'm not seeing it as a bad thing when more viable options open up and allow the party to carefully weigh the pros and cons on a case by case basis. More good options in play, more tough decisions, leads to gameplay that most of the experienced players I know find the most thought-provoking and rewarding.

I think that's the best case scenario. What is probably more likely to happen is the same as what happens in the base game right now: The half of the group that wants to rest gets their way every time. Because the alternative is the half that DOESN'T want to going it alone.

It doesn't really impose a tough decision, merely an assertion from two people of "I'm staying right here", leaving the other two between a rock and a hard place (push on at half party strength, or wait and push on at half personal strength. Neither is a particularly fun option for those two.).

But maybe

...

The great thing about D&D and its best iteration Pathfinder is that you learn things, like how to compromise your ideas to get other people on board.

Playing role-playing games really helped me when I was studying for my undergraduate degree, as I already spent a decade correlating information as a hobby (by playing D&D).

The experience gained by playing for many decades has taught me that playing optimally all the time takes some magic out of the game. If you are playing an over-confident wizard who cares if a buff spell expires.

Often it only takes the change in attitude (less competitive) of one or two players to influence the rest.

For those having conflict in their games, I hope you can reach that point where positive change occurs.

HeroLab is a crutch for the weak.

I mean that only half-jokingly. There seem to be too many people who either pass up a bunch of good stuff because HeroLab doesn't have it, or rely on it far too heavily for building characters (the weekly "HeroLab told me I could do this but the rulebook says no! Which is right?" thread).

No Hero Lab is a timesaver that allows GMs with limited amounts of free time to fully develop NPCs the way the desire to without having to listen to nonsense like "NPCs shouldn't follow the same rules as PCs" or make compromises due to time...

BTW, I'm an avid 3PP supporter. For rules supplements, monsters, adventurers, etc. I still buy a lot of 3PP stuff. For PC & class-related stuff, however, whether or not Hero Lab support is available is a big purchasing decider.

And given the number of threads debating rules as intended vs. trying to game the wording of a rule for a player's min/max benefit, even when common sense should negate the need for cries of "FAQ ruling", I don't think disputes caused by differences in Hero Lab vs. a rulebook are anywhere near as big a problem as the "design my way or it's wrong" crowd. Some might even say that there "seem to be too many people" arguing such things. ;)

BTW, those differences in Hero Lab are typically viewed as "bugs" and will be corrected if reported.

NPCs DON'T follow the same rules as PCs in many cases.

Building an NPC really doesn't take very long even if you do though. 15 minutes for a caster, 10 for a martial just about. Less if you use one of the myriad quick "Class templates" that came out recently and tweak Feats to taste.

Unless you rely on software like HeroLab, in which case you never learn how to do things quickly when you don't have access to it.

I mean, you guys really stat outs npc? I always just winded them

I was running 3.X for over twelve years before I purchased HeroLab. I know perfectly well what I'm doing, thank you. :)

Also, the class templates don't work very well for most NPCs, unless you have a pressing need for characters with no Hit Dice or stats. Great for monsters though.

Monsters are NPCs. That stands for "non player character".

Stats for PC raced NPCs are generally determined by array in any case, and hit dice are a matter if determining " what level are these guys?" and taking the average.

Rynjin, I know a few people who do have the skill of which you speak, the ability to stat out an NPC of even high level in 10 minutes or less (and in one case, literally on the fly, though the NPC always just maxes out skills in that latter case), but I can count them on my fingers, and I work at Paizo (granted, I haven't gamed with everyone here, so there may be more of whom I'm not aware). It's a rare gift you have. Be grateful for it; almost no other GM has it, whether or not they use Herolab.

I mean, you guys really stat outs npc? I always just winded them

Since the NPC Codex and Advanced Bestiary I just use those stats regardless of whatever race I'm using and slap on some kind of template if I need them to be something really different.

Really I think templates should be the norm for monsters. Since discovering third party templates my bestiaries multiplied in amount of monsters, which is more meaningful than, 'and this is another Zombie only this zombie is thematically different for some reason.' So I imagine the same could be done for NPCs. Slap on a Class Template or a curse template or whatever. Would also help with monstrous humanoid NPCs with class levels.

Eh. I could have put that better less condescendingly, if I'm being honest. It's not precisely the product I have a problem with, it's over-reliance on it.

I've played with a few people who have kinda soured me on the whole thing. Like "Why aren't you leveled like everyone else?" "HeroLab is down, I can't level up" levels of bad.

Yeah, I have many of the same issues Rynjin has, but that's probably more because I only hear about people using HeroLab on their tablet rather than just having a PDF character sheet pulled up or whatever when HeroLab is doing things wrong.

On the other hand, it completely boggles my mind that people can justify paying for their Paizo products twice for any reason.

Rynjin, I know a few people who do have the skill of which you speak, the ability to stat out an NPC of even high level in 10 minutes or less (and in one case, literally on the fly, though the NPC always just maxes out skills in that latter case), but I can count them on my fingers, and I work at Paizo (granted, I haven't gamed with everyone here, so there may be more of whom I'm not aware). It's a rare gift you have. Be grateful for it; almost no other GM has it, whether or not they use Herolab.

I know some people that craft NPC's with the same care as a PC, but the VAST majority them really don't need that kind of scrutiny. So I'm mostly with Rynjin. Now I may time a bity more time on one that requires a lot of PC interection (or may be used for PC takeover) but it usually doesn't take a lot more time.

I take WAY more time makng a PC as I go over all my options.

Eh. I could have put that better less condescendingly, if I'm being honest. It's not precisely the product I have a problem with, it's over-reliance on it.

I've played with a few people who have kinda soured me on the whole thing. Like "Why aren't you leveled like everyone else?" "HeroLab is down, I can't level up" levels of bad.

I've also seen that, in my PFS days, but I think in those cases, those might be players who would have otherwise left the game, or else had to essentially have another player build their character for them (both of which I've also seen). Anything a player can find that helps them make the game their own and feel more independent, like they can make and play their own character without somebody else calling the shots, is a good thing for that player and for the game, in my book. Whether it's an initiative tracker or Herolab, miniatures and lots of props like altitude trackers or buff and condition cards.

I'm in the camp that I have enough third part stuff (I have a partial list on another thread) with varying things like new subsystems, new skills and a load of other things where doing it by hand is just easier and cheaper. Although aside from spells I'd have to say that I'm not sure what the fuss is all about, with the right character sheet I rarely just stop knowing whats going on. The problems occur when I don't have room to write down what obscure long-winded feats do or spells that I haven't memorized or have on my phone.

Oh man the multiclassing and stamina rules in PU might actually get me to take my unplayed fighter 20 build out of mothballs and give it a go!

There now I've made a statement concerning the topic of this thread, so I don't feel bad about adding an off topic bullet point:

Because I don't have nearly the RPG preparation time in my life that I used to (being a husband and father), my opinion of HL is this:

Hero Lab is the greatest thing to happen to RPGs since dice and imagination.

Removed a personal attack, and a response to it. Please everyone, don't make personal attacks. Given that the removed posts were in response to previous posts that were condescending, I would ask everyone to try not to be condescending, but I recognize that sometimes it's not clear-cut or easy to notice that you're making that kind of post. But it is easy to see when you're making a personal attack on someone, and I hope you will refrain from it.

So, after reading some of these comments, I'm afraid I must agree: I now despise Herolab! As such, I will be sure to log it away with all the other things I despise, such as the calculator, car, cell phone, and easy-bake oven.

CURSE TECHNOLOGY FOR TRYING TO MAKE MY LIFE EASIER!!!

HOW DARE IT TRY TO CRIPPLE MY PRECIOUS LITTLE BRAIN!!!