Advanced Class Guide Preview: Hunter

Tuesday, August 5, 2014

Alright guys, this is it! The Advanced Class Guide releases next week and this is the final rules preview blog, featuring the hunter. When describing the druid class to a new player, you would often say something "She casts nature spells, turns into animals, and has an animal pet if you want". For the ranger, it might be "He fights well against certain foes in certain terrains and eventually gets nature magic and an animal pet if you want". The hunter is a hybrid of the two, and she pushes the pet up in that list, "She casts nature magic spells and has an animal pet with all kinds of synergies." Those of you who were watching my little teasers know that there's a tweak to the hunter that, while small in terms of wordcount, I think will have major repercussions in making the hunter awesome.Flavorwise, you might have been able to pull off some of the hunter feel before with a ranger or druid character. In fact, this class was the one that was the hardest sell to me as a playtester, as the first playtest version felt like you could make an archetype of druid that traded out wild shape for the hunter abilities and it wouldn't be too out of line for an archetype. Perhaps an alternate class at most. Basically, she was a prepared Wisdom-based caster like the druid, with the druid's BAB and skill points, mostly druid weapons and armor plus bows, using the druid spell list but casting with the 6th-level spellcasting advancement of a magus. She got a bunch of teamwork feats that the companion automatically shared, which was pretty cool, and a feature called animal focus that gave her and her companion a choice from a menu of small but generally useful buffs as a swift action with very limited uses.


Illustration by Subroto Bhaumik

Playtest feedback was mostly along the same lines—the teamwork feats were a good start, but hunter still had a way to go if she wanted to be able to hang out with the druids and rangers and hold her own. So she whistled for her companion and retreated into the woods to meditate on her nature. Though she hadn't made as many friends as she wanted yet, she wasn't lonely with her companion there. When she emerged, she had some substantial upgrades. For one, she could now use all martial weapons and despite the lack of proficiency, she wasn't restricted from wearing heavy armor if she wanted. More importantly, she gained earlier access on abilities like wild empathy, she scored free Precise Shot at level 2, and her animal focus now worked for about triple the number of minutes per day on her and permanently on her animal companion (she could still switch it out). She even cooked up a few new teamwork feats that worked great for a hunter.

But there was still plenty of good feedback about the hunter needing to change a bit more to find her niche. Many playtesters gave feedback that when running side-by-side comparisons of druids and hunters in their games, despite all the hunter had gained, she was still not doing as well as the druid. Unlike most of the other classes in my reveal blog, the hunter has plenty of new secrets to share, including multiple new class features involving using her link to scout and raising her companion from the dead. For melee hunters, that free Precise Shot freebie I mentioned can now be swapped for an extremely juicy early-access Outflank at level 2! If your companion dies in action, all the permanent animal focus powers instantly shift over to you, allowing you to stack up to four different powers onto yourself starting at level 8. The hunter even has 6 skill points per level now!

But the big change is so exciting, it gets its own paragraph. Remember how the hunter can cast spells from the druid spell list, up to 6th level spells? Well now, she can cast ranger spells too. And if they're on both lists, she casts them using the lower level. That's right, she's the only class in the game who can cast resist energy as a 1st-level character! Gravity bow, lead blades, and aspect of the falcon at 1st. Wind wall and spike growth as 2nd-level spells at 4th. The list goes on. She's also a spontaneous caster now, so she doesn't have to load up her slots with resist energy to still be able to cast it when you need it. So basically, for low levels, at least (particularly, 1, 2, and 4), the hunter is arguably a better caster than the druid in some situations (the druid still has the ability to prepare any spell from her list when you need that odd spell, so she still has her place), with better skills, better weapons, and a kickass companion. There's still plenty of reason to play a druid, but through one elegant change, the hunter has vaulted her way up to the point where I hope she will satisfy many of the playtesters who shape her new abilities.

Alright then, on to the archetypes! Today we'll be going on a hunt through the archetype section to stalk that cool-looking guy with the white tiger you see over there. He's definitely not the verminous hunter because he doesn't have a vermin companion, though he does look badass enough to be able to walk right through swarms. He's not the packmaster because he doesn't have several animal companions. While he definitely looks feral, he probably isn't the feral hunter because the feral hunter trades out the animal companion to gain permanent bonuses, wild shape, and boosts to summoned allies, though perhaps that's a summoned tiger by his side. He's also probably not the divine hunter, since even though I could believe he has access to a domain's powers and granted spells, that tiger doesn't look celestial or fiendish. So what's the conclusion? Well, I suppose he might be the feral hunter with a summoned tiger, but personally I think he's waiting to be your next PC! Anyone want to stat him up here in this thread? Perhaps it will help tide your salivating hunger for the final book. Soon, my friends. Soon.

Mark Seifter
Designer

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Tags: Hunter Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subroto Bhaumik
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Shadow Lodge

The new spell list is pretty bangin'. Still wish we had gotten the option to rock some magical beast animal companions.

Still, pretty cool so far and I'll be much happier should we also get some new vermin companions and the divine one is pretty good. I might have to build like a classic skinwalker style guy here soon.

Dark Archive

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From what I am hearing from the hunter it seems like it is more Druid Cavalier vs Druid Ranger


doc the grey wrote:
The new spell list is pretty bangin'. Still wish we had gotten the option to rock some magical beast animal companions.

Mountrous mount feat tree from inner sea combat can let you have either a griffon, hippogryph, hippocampus, or worg


Solidchaos085 wrote:
doc the grey wrote:
The new spell list is pretty bangin'. Still wish we had gotten the option to rock some magical beast animal companions.
Mountrous mount feat tree from inner sea combat can let you have either a griffon, hippogryph, hippocampus, or worg

One of the worst feat trees in existence.


Insain Dragoon wrote:
Solidchaos085 wrote:
doc the grey wrote:
The new spell list is pretty bangin'. Still wish we had gotten the option to rock some magical beast animal companions.
Mountrous mount feat tree from inner sea combat can let you have either a griffon, hippogryph, hippocampus, or worg
One of the worst feat trees in existence.

But after 2 feats you can get a companion with 1/2 the abilities of one you could just pay for. Who wouldn't want that? :P


Ross Byers wrote:
There's also the option to get non-numeric abilities (Mark mentioned blindsight and evasion as options), if you really do have all your physical abilities capped out.

It was blindsense, which isn't quite as cool. It might scale to blindsight, just like I would expect evasion to scale to the improved version. Very glad for those additions, just 'cuz they're more interesting.


Insain Dragoon wrote:
Solidchaos085 wrote:
doc the grey wrote:
The new spell list is pretty bangin'. Still wish we had gotten the option to rock some magical beast animal companions.
Mountrous mount feat tree from inner sea combat can let you have either a griffon, hippogryph, hippocampus, or worg
One of the worst feat trees in existence.

What makes the feats bad, exactly?


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You know, I'm disappointed that the Hunter got switched over to a spontaneous caster. As it stands, all of the 6th level caster classes, except the Magus, are spontaneous casters, so I was kind of hoping the Hunter would be the first 6th level prepared caster.

Anyway, as for those who worry about accuracy... don't. The Hunter shares teamwork feats with his companion, so if he flanks with them, he can get some monstrous accuracy bonuses.

For example, get Outflank at level 2 and then get yourself a +1 menacing spiked gauntlet and now you have a +6 to hit when you flank with your companion.

As an archer, get Snap Shot and if you take Outflank, Enfilading Fire, and the above gauntlet, you can flank with your companion and get up to +8 to hit while doing so.

Sure, other classes can do this too, but they probably won't be able to do it as easily as the Hunter, except for the Inquisitor of course.


Excaliburproxy wrote:
Torbyne wrote:
Teamwork feats for extra accuracy? Inquisitor and I thank you :)
I would bet a decent little sum that it will be only for animal companions and their owner.

Blarg. Do they really need to be making teamwork feats even more situational and unappealing? Might as well just call them Hunter feats, everyone else screw off. Can't use teamwork feats to buff the Hunter without sharing the love for Cavaliers and inquisitors. At least I hope :/


Ventnor wrote:
Insain Dragoon wrote:
Solidchaos085 wrote:
doc the grey wrote:
The new spell list is pretty bangin'. Still wish we had gotten the option to rock some magical beast animal companions.
Mountrous mount feat tree from inner sea combat can let you have either a griffon, hippogryph, hippocampus, or worg
One of the worst feat trees in existence.
What makes the feats bad, exactly?

Well...

-The it's two feats
-Leadership for one of these animals with class levels or just more magical beast hit die results in something stronger than an animal companion
-If you want a flying mount then a vulture, Roc, ect animal companion is better because it requires no feats to obtain
-The Worg has very little over the wolf
-Somehow Gryphons and Hippogryphs forgot how to fly unless yu take a second feat and even though they wouldn't be encumbered at all they get reduced to half speed.
-A Hippogryph you purchase wouldn't lose speed for carrying you
-It should have been one feat


graystone wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
The book as a whole, from the information we've been given is a real mixed bag of really well designed (Slayer, Investigator, Bloodrager, possibly Skald and Shaman), flawed but workable (Brawler, Swashbuckler, Warpriest), and horrid (Arcanist and Hunter).

So far I'm happy with what I've heard from most of the previews. I'm still iffy on a few but the only one that I'd put in the 'horrid' section is the Warpriest. That preview was a big kick to the groin. Pretty much Warpiest and hunter swapped places and now I'm looking forward to the Hunter and wary about the Warpriest.

Maybe Mark should have done the warpriest preview too! ;)

Yeah, how did one of the coolest classes turn out so... sad :( Nine out of ten classes got me hyped up though.

Shadow Lodge

Torbyne wrote:
graystone wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
The book as a whole, from the information we've been given is a real mixed bag of really well designed (Slayer, Investigator, Bloodrager, possibly Skald and Shaman), flawed but workable (Brawler, Swashbuckler, Warpriest), and horrid (Arcanist and Hunter).

So far I'm happy with what I've heard from most of the previews. I'm still iffy on a few but the only one that I'd put in the 'horrid' section is the Warpriest. That preview was a big kick to the groin. Pretty much Warpiest and hunter swapped places and now I'm looking forward to the Hunter and wary about the Warpriest.

Maybe Mark should have done the warpriest preview too! ;)

Yeah, how did one of the coolest classes turn out so... sad :( Nine out of ten classes got me hyped up though.

maybe we should petition Mark to write a new preview blog for the warpriest and give it its proper spotlight...please?


Torbyne wrote:
graystone wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
The book as a whole, from the information we've been given is a real mixed bag of really well designed (Slayer, Investigator, Bloodrager, possibly Skald and Shaman), flawed but workable (Brawler, Swashbuckler, Warpriest), and horrid (Arcanist and Hunter).

So far I'm happy with what I've heard from most of the previews. I'm still iffy on a few but the only one that I'd put in the 'horrid' section is the Warpriest. That preview was a big kick to the groin. Pretty much Warpiest and hunter swapped places and now I'm looking forward to the Hunter and wary about the Warpriest.

Maybe Mark should have done the warpriest preview too! ;)

Yeah, how did one of the coolest classes turn out so... sad :( Nine out of ten classes got me hyped up though.

Yeah, I know what you mean. There's going to have to be some pretty awesome non-previewed abilities for me to going back to liking the warpriest. The lose of it's pseudo-full BAB makes it very iffy IMO. At least they gave to the Hunter after they robbed the Warpriest. The Robinhoods or Paizo... :P


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Tels wrote:

You know, I'm disappointed that the Hunter got switched over to a spontaneous caster. As it stands, all of the 6th level caster classes, except the Magus, are spontaneous casters, so I was kind of hoping the Hunter would be the first 6th level prepared caster.

Anyway, as for those who worry about accuracy... don't. The Hunter shares teamwork feats with his companion, so if he flanks with them, he can get some monstrous accuracy bonuses.

For example, get Outflank at level 2 and then get yourself a +1 menacing spiked gauntlet and now you have a +6 to hit when you flank with your companion.

As an archer, get Snap Shot and if you take Outflank, Enfilading Fire, and the above gauntlet, you can flank with your companion and get up to +8 to hit while doing so.

Sure, other classes can do this too, but they probably won't be able to do it as easily as the Hunter, except for the Inquisitor of course.

You still can't flank with a bow.

The gantlet does not grant you flank bonus on your attack with the bow. That is just rule abuse.


Zark wrote:
Tels wrote:

You know, I'm disappointed that the Hunter got switched over to a spontaneous caster. As it stands, all of the 6th level caster classes, except the Magus, are spontaneous casters, so I was kind of hoping the Hunter would be the first 6th level prepared caster.

Anyway, as for those who worry about accuracy... don't. The Hunter shares teamwork feats with his companion, so if he flanks with them, he can get some monstrous accuracy bonuses.

For example, get Outflank at level 2 and then get yourself a +1 menacing spiked gauntlet and now you have a +6 to hit when you flank with your companion.

As an archer, get Snap Shot and if you take Outflank, Enfilading Fire, and the above gauntlet, you can flank with your companion and get up to +8 to hit while doing so.

Sure, other classes can do this too, but they probably won't be able to do it as easily as the Hunter, except for the Inquisitor of course.

You still can't flank with a bow.

The gantlet does not grant you flank bonus on your attack with the bow. That is just rule abuse.

Right. It seems like between this and Precise Shot as a bonus feat (I think?) they're trying to leave it open for the hunter to fight with their companion at range without penalty and in melee with a boost. Outflank for free at level 2 is pretty nice though.

Contributor

Tels wrote:

You know, I'm disappointed that the Hunter got switched over to a spontaneous caster. As it stands, all of the 6th level caster classes, except the Magus, are spontaneous casters, so I was kind of hoping the Hunter would be the first 6th level prepared caster.

Anyway, as for those who worry about accuracy... don't. The Hunter shares teamwork feats with his companion, so if he flanks with them, he can get some monstrous accuracy bonuses.

For example, get Outflank at level 2 and then get yourself a +1 menacing spiked gauntlet and now you have a +6 to hit when you flank with your companion.

As an archer, get Snap Shot and if you take Outflank, Enfilading Fire, and the above gauntlet, you can flank with your companion and get up to +8 to hit while doing so.

Sure, other classes can do this too, but they probably won't be able to do it as easily as the Hunter, except for the Inquisitor of course.

The bonus provided by Enfilading Fire is not a flanking bonus, and is therefore incompatible with outflank or the menacing property.


Tels wrote:
You know, I'm disappointed that the Hunter got switched over to a spontaneous caster. As it stands, all of the 6th level caster classes, except the Magus, are spontaneous casters, so I was kind of hoping the Hunter would be the first 6th level prepared caster.

Is the Warpriest not still prepared?

Grand Lodge

All hail rogue Eidolon, my favorite blog writer and bringer of wonderful news.


redward wrote:
Tels wrote:
You know, I'm disappointed that the Hunter got switched over to a spontaneous caster. As it stands, all of the 6th level caster classes, except the Magus, are spontaneous casters, so I was kind of hoping the Hunter would be the first 6th level prepared caster.
Is the Warpriest not still prepared?

"A warpriest may prepare and cast any spell on the cleric spell list, provided that he can cast spells of that level, but he must choose which spells to prepare during his daily meditation."

Liberty's Edge

Insain Dragoon wrote:
Ventnor wrote:
Insain Dragoon wrote:
Solidchaos085 wrote:
doc the grey wrote:
The new spell list is pretty bangin'. Still wish we had gotten the option to rock some magical beast animal companions.
Mountrous mount feat tree from inner sea combat can let you have either a griffon, hippogryph, hippocampus, or worg
One of the worst feat trees in existence.
What makes the feats bad, exactly?

Well...

-The it's two feats
-Leadership for one of these animals with class levels or just more magical beast hit die results in something stronger than an animal companion
-If you want a flying mount then a vulture, Roc, ect animal companion is better because it requires no feats to obtain
-The Worg has very little over the wolf
-Somehow Gryphons and Hippogryphs forgot how to fly unless yu take a second feat and even though they wouldn't be encumbered at all they get reduced to half speed

You are wrong here. They can fly, they just can't fly while mounted. At least, until the second feat is taken.

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

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Tels wrote:
You know, I'm disappointed that the Hunter got switched over to a spontaneous caster. As it stands, all of the 6th level caster classes, except the Magus, are spontaneous casters, so I was kind of hoping the Hunter would be the first 6th level prepared caster.

Also alchemists. And soon, inquisitors and war priests.


More off topic griping: is the warpriest the only class with diminished spell casting that doesn't get early access or unique spells? Thinking back on it, there wasn't even any mention of it in the previews... more hate for you, Warpriest. Why can't you be more like your sibling, Inquisitor? Look at all the success they've had.


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I know right? Why can't a class, whose class features (such as Blessings) we haven't seen yet, can't be like the Inquisitor. Oh, if only these class features that we haven't even glanced at yet didn't suck so much! Woe is me, that this class we know only half about clearly must suck because I love to bandwagon and whine about things without reading them of reasons ;)


If there was hint about class features like that than you might have a point. Instead here is a 3/4 BAB fighter without armor training and a few times per day swift buff so you can feel like a fighter, or use those few times per day to heal yourself because you are slower and have les HP than a fighter. Eh, I hope I am wrong, come back and post something scathing to me after the book comes out even, just so long as there is something awesome about the class.


Ill still play one of these eventually but probably not until after a bloodrager and a swashbuckler. Concept wise this was the class I was most looking forward to but unless the teamwork feats to be released give it that extra *something* I just cant shake the feeling that the class is missing something integral.

I think being compared to a druid and an inquisitor are high bars to set and on the one hand Im glad we didnt get into power creep territory. On the other hand I feel like resist energy at level one as the "big draw" is just... so underwhelming.


Torbyne wrote:
If there was hint about class features like that than you might have a point. Instead here is a 3/4 BAB fighter without armor training and a few times per day swift buff so you can feel like a fighter, or use those few times per day to heal yourself because you are slower and have les HP than a fighter. Eh, I hope I am wrong, come back and post something scathing to me after the book comes out even, just so long as there is something awesome about the class.

Again, considering we don't know how the Blessings were improved (only that they were brought in line with each other), we have no idea how they mesh with each other. So whining about it makes no sense since we haven't seen the full class, especially this late in production. That's what the playtests were for.

Better to just wait for the product to drop and then make the complaints, rather than joining the echochamber in making self-serving snipes about something we don't know the full story about. Though one thing I'll say is that Mark does a better job at getting people hyped over a class than Jason does. I'd like to have seen more information about the blessings than the sample one they gave. Though I do like the All as One blessing for a cleric of Erastil.

Also this topic is about the hunter. Better to leave the Warpriest QQ at another topic :p


Odraude wrote:
Torbyne wrote:
If there was hint about class features like that than you might have a point. Instead here is a 3/4 BAB fighter without armor training and a few times per day swift buff so you can feel like a fighter, or use those few times per day to heal yourself because you are slower and have les HP than a fighter. Eh, I hope I am wrong, come back and post something scathing to me after the book comes out even, just so long as there is something awesome about the class.

Again, considering we don't know how the Blessings were improved (only that they were brought in line with each other), we have no idea how they mesh with each other. So whining about it makes no sense since we haven't seen the full class, especially this late in production. That's what the playtests were for.

Better to just wait for the product to drop and then make the complaints, rather than joining the echochamber in making self-serving snipes about something we don't know the full story about. Though one thing I'll say is that Mark does a better job at getting people hyped over a class than Jason does. I'd like to have seen more information about the blessings than the sample one they gave. Though I do like the All as One blessing for a cleric of Erastil.

I’m not going to dwell on the warpriest since this is the hunter thread, but I just want to say this:

I can frankly say that for me the warpriest is the most disappointing class in the book. Not because the class is bad, because I have no idea how it turned out, but because it isn’t a full BAB class with 4/9 casting. It has nothing to do with power, but with play style. I, and a lot of other people, really wanted a full BAB holy warrior. The fact that we, before the playtest, actually was promised a full BAB holy warrior style of class didn’t help.

In the end I may love playing the Warpriest, but not as a holy warrior, but as a Warpriest.


Odraude wrote:
Though one thing I'll say is that Mark does a better job at getting people hyped over a class than Jason does. I'd like to have seen more information about the blessings than the sample one they gave. Though I do like the All as One blessing for a cleric of Erastil.

I can agree with that. After taking away the feature I thought was integral to the classes viability, Jason really dropped the ball by not giving some better improvements in the preview.

If the rest of the previews had been like the Warpriest, I think you'd find more people on the fence about the book. This preview did it right. I actually want to run a hunter some time and that's a big turn around from the playtest.


Zark wrote:
Tels wrote:

You know, I'm disappointed that the Hunter got switched over to a spontaneous caster. As it stands, all of the 6th level caster classes, except the Magus, are spontaneous casters, so I was kind of hoping the Hunter would be the first 6th level prepared caster.

Anyway, as for those who worry about accuracy... don't. The Hunter shares teamwork feats with his companion, so if he flanks with them, he can get some monstrous accuracy bonuses.

For example, get Outflank at level 2 and then get yourself a +1 menacing spiked gauntlet and now you have a +6 to hit when you flank with your companion.

As an archer, get Snap Shot and if you take Outflank, Enfilading Fire, and the above gauntlet, you can flank with your companion and get up to +8 to hit while doing so.

Sure, other classes can do this too, but they probably won't be able to do it as easily as the Hunter, except for the Inquisitor of course.

You still can't flank with a bow.

The gantlet does not grant you flank bonus on your attack with the bow. That is just rule abuse.

I did mention Snap Shot for a reason, you know. With Snap Shot, you can flank with a bow as you now threaten squares around you with a bow.

So with Snap Shot, you can use Outflank for a +4 flank bonus, and if you have a Menacing Weapon, it increases flanking bonus by an additional +2 for a total of +6 while flanking.

Alexander Augunas wrote:
The bonus provided by Enfilading Fire is not a flanking bonus, and is therefore incompatible with outflank or the menacing property.

You're right, it's not, specifically, a flanking bonus, but read the feat.

Enfilading Fire wrote:
Benefit: You receive a +2 bonus on ranged attacks made against a foe flanked by 1 or more allies with this feat.

So if an enemy is being flanked by an ally with this feat, you get +2 to ranged attack rolls.

If you have Snap Shot (to flank), Outflank, a +1 menacing gauntlet and Enfliading Fire, you get a total of +8 to hit. Why? Because you count as your own ally!

It's cheesy, sure, but since you have the feat, and you are an ally that is flanking, you are using yourself to qualify for Enfilading Fire.

Also, you animal companion has all of your Teamwork feats, so he would have Enfilading Fire too and lets you qualify.

[Edit] Had to find the video, but I find this appropriate: Link.


As for the spontaneous caster bit, I did forget about the Warpriest (because I find him forgettable now). The Alchemist and the Investigator aren't true casters, so I didn't really count them.

So that leaves the Magus and the Warpriest as the only prepared sixth level casters.

On the side of spontaneous 6th level casters, you have Summoners, Bards, Inquisitors, Hunters and Skalds.

I would have liked to see more 6th level prepard casters is all.

Mayhaps a 6th level Monk/Magus hybrid?!?!


Tels wrote:
I did mention Snap Shot for a reason, you know. With Snap Shot, you can flank with a bow as you now threaten squares around you with a bow.

Oh, I had missed that. :)

That is cool, but being close to a melee foe is risky since it is easy to sunder bows. Also Snap shot requires a lot of feats.


Zark wrote:
Tels wrote:
I did mention Snap Shot for a reason, you know. With Snap Shot, you can flank with a bow as you now threaten squares around you with a bow.

Oh, I had missed that. :)

That is cool, but being close to a melee foe is risky since it is easy to sunder bows. Also Snap shot requires a lot of feats.

Well, it's feats you're already going to be taking as an archer anyway right? Point-Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, and then you just need Weapon Focus to qualify. It just won't be something you take until around 10th level or so, and that's when all of those teamwork feats really start kicking in and ramping up.

Also, Improved Snap Shot later on and now you're flanking from 15 ft. away. Plus there are items you can get to make it harder to break your stuff if you're worried about it.

On the metagame side, it seems a lot of GMs are afraid to use sunder on PC gear as it's seen as a big 'no-no'. It's easier to bring a character back from the dead who's soul has been sacrificed on an Altar to Satan and condemned to Hell than it is to fix magical gear.

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, Contributor

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Tels wrote:

As for the spontaneous caster bit, I did forget about the Warpriest (because I find him forgettable now). The Alchemist and the Investigator aren't true casters, so I didn't really count them.

So that leaves the Magus and the Warpriest as the only prepared sixth level casters.

On the side of spontaneous 6th level casters, you have Summoners, Bards, Inquisitors, Hunters and Skalds.

I would have liked to see more 6th level prepard casters is all.

Mayhaps a 6th level Monk/Magus hybrid?!?!

I'm a huge fan of spontaneous casting, it's is easier and less fiddly for both players and GMs. Six level casters tend to have a lot of other class abilities going on so keeping them simpler is a good idea.

I suspect that's a big part of the reason the six level casting classes are spontaneous.

Designer

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Tels wrote:
Zark wrote:
Tels wrote:
I did mention Snap Shot for a reason, you know. With Snap Shot, you can flank with a bow as you now threaten squares around you with a bow.

Oh, I had missed that. :)

That is cool, but being close to a melee foe is risky since it is easy to sunder bows. Also Snap shot requires a lot of feats.

Well, it's feats you're already going to be taking as an archer anyway right? Point-Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, and then you just need Weapon Focus to qualify. It just won't be something you take until around 10th level or so, and that's when all of those teamwork feats really start kicking in and ramping up.

Also, Improved Snap Shot later on and now you're flanking from 15 ft. away. Plus there are items you can get to make it harder to break your stuff if you're worried about it.

@Flank build--as a huge fan of flanking and assisting other party members myself, I've used similar builds in the past, but if I'm not mistaken, that massive flank bonus is applying to everyone else but the archer in that scenario, due to this line:

Flanking wrote:
When making a melee attack, you get a +2 flanking bonus if your opponent is threatened by another enemy character or creature on its opposite border or opposite corner.

So the archer is threatening and definitely provides a flank. The other ally gets the flanking bonus, but the archer doesn't. Fortunately, this still does activate Enfilading (and there's a new teamwork feat in the ACG that would also work if you had a nice setup like this, for a net of a huge boost to the archer as well).


Mark Seifter wrote:
Tels wrote:
Zark wrote:
Tels wrote:
I did mention Snap Shot for a reason, you know. With Snap Shot, you can flank with a bow as you now threaten squares around you with a bow.

Oh, I had missed that. :)

That is cool, but being close to a melee foe is risky since it is easy to sunder bows. Also Snap shot requires a lot of feats.

Well, it's feats you're already going to be taking as an archer anyway right? Point-Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, and then you just need Weapon Focus to qualify. It just won't be something you take until around 10th level or so, and that's when all of those teamwork feats really start kicking in and ramping up.

Also, Improved Snap Shot later on and now you're flanking from 15 ft. away. Plus there are items you can get to make it harder to break your stuff if you're worried about it.

@Flank build--as a huge fan of flanking and assisting other party members myself, I've used similar builds in the past, but if I'm not mistaken, that massive flank bonus is applying to everyone else but the archer in that scenario, due to this line:

Flanking wrote:
When making a melee attack, you get a +2 flanking bonus if your opponent is threatened by another enemy character or creature on its opposite border or opposite corner.
So the archer is threatening and definitely provides a flank. The other ally gets the flanking bonus, but the archer doesn't. Fortunately, this still does activate Enfilading (and there's a new teamwork feat in the ACG that would also work if you had a nice setup like this, for a net of a huge boost to the archer as well).

Well... that's something my group and I have been playing wrong for 15. years...

All right, so the Hunter does go back to sucking again. I mean, sure, they'll be able to buff their attack bonus via spells, but any spell he can cast, the Druid or Ranger can cast, while still getting either more spells, or more bonuses from elsewhere.

I mean, Inquisitors can cast spells to buff themselves... but they can also use Judgment and Bane.

Magi can cast spells to buff... but they also get an Arcane Pool to further enhance themselves.

Bards can cast spells to buff, but they can also use bardic performance.

This class just shouldn't exist. There is absolutely zero reason for it's existence at all.


The one major thing that bugs me is this: why the majority of you critizers feel the compelling urge to always compare one class with another already existing class, *even* if the new ones were hybrids from them? Can't you just go with the thought that *maybe* this game and these classes weren't designed to satisfy some sort of mechanical balance between the classes, but to fulfill certain concepts (=ideas of a particular kind of heroes or heroines)

And on a personal note, I for one, do find Arcanist a great class greatly because of their spellcasting ability, the arcanist exploits are just a bonus I could well live without. For over 12 years of this game I've been waiting for that kind of approach on how spellcasting should work. Sure, you are limited to those spells you know and maybe learn afterwards, but that you could always prepare a set of spells you think you'll need for a day and then cast them, spontaneously in this game's terminology, as you wish, without having to fear you ran out that one spell which you would've wanted to use for another and maybe yet another time during the same day, all without sacrificing a potential utility from the other spells you could cast, even if you chose not to.
Although this change might seem so small, it actually will have HUGE impact in the game.

As for the Hunter, from purely conceptual perspective, they do have their own place, if you just would open your mind a little more and give space to your imagination over those odd thoughts "that everything must fit within the same boundaries already given to us".


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Arkhios wrote:
As for the Hunter, from purely conceptual perspective, they do have their own place, if you just would open your mind a little more and give space to your imagination over those odd thoughts "that everything must fit within the same boundaries already given to us".

Sorry, the concept of 'guy with an animal companion from level 1 that isn't a druid' is not a compelling enough reason to create an entire class around it when so many other combinations could have been possible.

Like maybe a hybrid of Magi and Inquisitor for a 6th level caster that casts from a combined Arcane/Divine spell list.

How about a Warlock styled character? A guy that can go all day long unleashes blasts of magic while having very few (if any) spells to cast himself.

Or a Rogue/Sorcerer for a true Spell Thief.

Or a Druid/Barbarian that becomes a 4th level divine caster that, when he rages, takes on animalistic forms turning himself into a Ragemorpher or something. He could have a human/animal hybrid form, or he can fully assume animal form, kind of like a Lycanthrope Base class.

Or a Monk/Magus or Monk/Sorcerer for a more mystical Monk-esque class for those who want to play more DBZ styles mystical martial artists.

There are a lot more combinations that would have been more flavorful and less crowded in it's niche than the Hunter.

We already have a full 9th level Divine Class with Animal Companion and a full BAB Divine Class with animal companion, we don't really need a 6th level Divine class with animal companion as well.

Not only that, there are already a ton of Divine Casters with 3/4 BAB in the game: Cleric, Oracle, Shaman, Druid, Inquisitor, Warpriest, and now Hunter. In fact, with the exception of the Paladin and Ranger, every single divine caster in the game is a 3/4 BAB class! We don't need another one!


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Tels has the right idea and also is full of amazing ideas for classes!

Maybe we'll get lucky and the Hunter will have some good archetypes? Also the niche it's going to fill in my group is "Let's have a game with no full casters." Honestly that's not a niche that should exist for various reason, but it's a niche.

When you work from character concept then to class the Hunter has nothing

"I want to be a natury archer who has a pet!"
Ranger is better

"I want to have natury spells!"
Druid is better

"I want to be some amazing beast transformation dude!"
Druid is better

"I want to be a dude who hits things in melee!"
Barb, Slayer, Paladin
"-who is ALSO natury"
Oh then Ranger

I don't, and I hope most people don't, pick class first then concept. I pick my concept first then find the chassis that best fits what I envision my character doing.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Insain Dragoon wrote:


I don't, and I hope most people don't, pick class first then concept. I pick my concept first then find the chassis that best fits what I envision my character doing.

Some people start with a concept, some people start with class. Both choices are perfectly fine. I have both "I want to play a River Kingdoms divine gnome enchantress who dabbles in both illusion and divine spells, what class is the best fit for that?" is great, but "I want to play an Archerdin, I have all the feats and crunch ready now how do I make that fit in your campaign?" is fine too.

Dark Archive

I kinda hope there is an archetype that the hunter loses his spellcasting for something else.

Sczarni

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Mark. Can I get an ROUS? You know.. ROUS are thought to be a myth.

Nobody survives the fire swamps!


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brad2411 wrote:
I kinda hope there is an archetype that the hunter loses his spellcasting for something else.

You mean Ranger? 'Cause Ranger does that.

Contributor

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I won't be able to say for sure until I get the actual ACG in my hands, but it looks like this class is basically the same as it was when the team handed it over to the editors shortly before I left Paizo. (FYI, based on the blog previews, that's my impression for all four of the ACG classes I worked on--brawler, hunter, skald, slayer.) Which, IMO, is good, because I was satisfied with how those classes turned out.

I hope that when people get to read the classes in the ACG, they'll see and understand that although I made the playtesters work hard to explain and justify the changes they wanted to see, I did listen to their ideas and data, and many of their suggestions did make it into the final versions of those classes.

(Thanks for the four fun writeups, Mark! :))

Designer

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Sean K Reynolds wrote:

I won't be able to say for sure until I get the actual ACG in my hands, but it looks like this class is basically the same as it was when the team handed it over to the editors shortly before I left Paizo. (FYI, based on the blog previews, that's my impression for all four of the ACG classes I worked on--brawler, hunter, skald, slayer.) Which, IMO, is good, because I was satisfied with how those classes turned out.

I hope that when people get to read the classes in the ACG, they'll see and understand that although I made the playtesters work hard to explain and justify the changes they wanted to see, I did listen to their ideas and data, and many of their suggestions did make it into the final versions of those classes.

(Thanks for the four fun writeups, Mark! :))

I think you're right about the classes, Sean. And glad you liked the writeups. But gosh, it must be 3 AM in Indiana--get some sleep! (I should too)

Dark Archive

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Tels wrote:
brad2411 wrote:
I kinda hope there is an archetype that the hunter loses his spellcasting for something else.
You mean Ranger? 'Cause Ranger does that.

First rangers have spells, yes there is an archetype that is spell-less (the trapper). It is my favorite ranger archetype. But what I think is cool about the Hunter is it does to the nature classes what the cavalier and inquisitor did for others. Meaning getting in heavy with the teamwork feats in interesting ways. I would like to see a spell-less hunter that did more with its animal companion as that is what this class is about to me or maybe lets you have 2 animal companions instead of spells.


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An archetype with a celestial/fiendish animal companion? Sold.


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Phithis wrote:
Beautiful class! I was already running a Hunter/Emperyal Sorcerer, this just makes him better :)

Interesting combo.

I just now noticed that the hunter is a divine spellcaster with proficiency in all martial weapons. That means it could qualify for both eldritch knight and mystic theurge.

I'm thinking two levels of hunter, two of sorcerer, ten of eldritch knight, and six of mystic theurge. (Not in that order.) That makes a 3/4 BAB character with 8th level sorcerer spells and 3rd level druid/ranger spells all of which are spontaneous and wisdom based. Use the magical knack trait with an orange prism ioun stone and your sorcerer would still cast at 20th level.

So maybe…

H1/S1/EK6/MT2/EK2/MT2/EK2/MT2/S1/H1

Of course you would have to be an aasimar with the heavenly radiance (wake of light) feat to meet the entry requirements for the prestige classes. And of course you would miss out on all those cool hunter and sorcerer class features.

Still, that's about as close as I can get to the old cleric/fighter/magic-user I used to have in 1st edition AD&D. :)


On a more serious note, the hunter was one of the new classes that I had no interest in playing. After this thread it is one of the ones that most interest me. The same thing happened with the investigator.

So good work on the revisions and the blog updates!

Dark Archive

Gisher wrote:
I just now noticed that the hunter is a divine spellcaster with proficiency in all martial weapons. That means it could qualify for both eldritch knight and mystic theurge.

Ha, well found. Optimisers are really quick round here. Scary thought.

Well done, Paizo, the revision looks great. I'll roll one up.

BTW: The red-headed woman Iconic I will stake a lot on being from Nirmathas. We haven't had one from there. It's Robin Hood forest country. They are free-spirited CG people. The 'leader' is even called the Forest Marshal. Our girl is wearing Lincoln Green and has a foresty Wolf.


I was just goofing around. And while optimizing can be a fun intellectual exercise, I try not to let it get in the way of the role-playing.

That said, the warpriest is also a divine spellcaster with full martial weapon proficiency.

Consider...

WP1/Wiz1/EK6/MT2/EK2/MT2/EK2/MT2/Wiz1/WP1

9th lvl Wizard Spells, 15 BAB, 3rd lvl Cleric Spells, and 1d6 with a dagger or whip.

There is a reason that I chose this screen name. ;)

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