Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play: Guide 5.0 and Changes to Organized Play

I heard something in a thread somewhere where the faction missions for Eyes of the Ten are still supposed be run. Is this still the intention?

I may of missed it but how does the Out-of-Subtier Gold work with 1-7 Scenarios?

Is it the average between the 1-2 tier and 6-7 tier?

OR something else?

The appropriate value would be the average of the character's native subtier and the subtier actually played, or the two subtiers surrounding the character's level, if they fall into the "dead range".

In the case of a tier 1-7:
* A level two character playing subtier 3-4 would average subtiers 1-2 and 3-4.
* A level six character playing subtier 3-4 would average subtiers 3-4 and 6-7.
* A level five character would average subtiers 3-4 and 6-7, regardless of subtier played (note that they can still only play subtiers 3-4 and 6-7).

One thing that did not get noted in the Changelog is the very last page. There is now an inventory tracking form. This should make optional GM audits much easier.

I really like this inventory sheet!!!

Ouch. I appreciate that we have the retraining rules now, but that 1 prestige point per day thing makes them almost impossible to use for anything except for the simplest modifications. If my level 5 sorcerer wanted to retrain his bloodline, I'd have to burn 15 prestige points and the cost will just go up as he continues to gain levels!

Edit: If I'm supposed to spend extra days to retrain my bonus spells as well, the cost goes up to 21 prestige points at level 5... I'd have to spend almost the full number of prestige points that are available to the character.

Barbain wrote:

I may of missed it but how does the Out-of-Subtier Gold work with 1-7 Scenarios?

Is it the average between the 1-2 tier and 6-7 tier?

OR something else?

The appropriate value would be the average of the character's native subtier and the subtier actually played, or the two subtiers surrounding the character's level, if they fall into the "dead range".

In the case of a tier 1-7:
* A level two character playing subtier 3-4 would average subtiers 1-2 and 3-4.
* A level six character playing subtier 3-4 would average subtiers 3-4 and 6-7.
* A level five character would average subtiers 3-4 and 6-7, regardless of subtier played (note that they can still only play subtiers 3-4 and 6-7).

Thanks Starglim and SCPRedMage for responses.

This is what I figured to be the case, but it is not brought into account in the guide and this would be a consern for all Specials(Race for the Runecarved Key, Siege of the Diamon City, etc) that have clearly more than just 2 tiers to choose per scenario and no clear cut low tier and high tier.

I hope this too will be addressed in an update for clarity.

Ouch. I appreciate that we have the retraining rules now, but that 1 prestige point per day thing makes them almost impossible to use for anything except for the simplest modifications. If my level 5 sorcerer wanted to retrain his bloodline, I'd have to burn 15 prestige points and the cost will just go up as he continues to gain levels!

Retraining changes the essence of a character, even if it is just a small change. We want people to think long and hard before changing things and we want people's choices to matter. However, we also want to allow people the opportunity to change things when a new book comes out and has that trait/feat/spell/whatever that is the perfect fit for their character. It is possible to rebuild a character almost completely, but careful consideration must be taken before doing so since there is a PP cost involved. That was a intentionally decision.

Also, this allows us to evaluate how retraining effects PFS in both good and bad ways. If we make it expensive to begin with, it is easier for use to loosen the requirements later if warranted. However, if we made it too cheap to begin with, and then tighten it later to make it more expensive, there would be a huge backlash. Since we've never really had retraining in PFS above 1st level, this lets us evaluate the effects retraining has and go from there. It opens up options that haven't been available before. And it allows people to correct character building mistakes or add new things as they are released, instead of being stuck with an undesirable decision for many levels and much invested playtime with no option other than shelving the character.

This a nice new Guide! I'm happy with the changes.

You all realize that the out of subtier gold calculation is totally communist "from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs"?

Umm... isn't your arguement that this is the *opposite* of communism? communism would be if the characters that got hurt the most got the most money. capitalism is when the character that brings the most skills to the table gets paid the most. (i.e. what happens here)

Also, this allows us to evaluate how retraining effects PFS in both good and bad ways. If we make it expensive to begin with, it is easier for use to loosen the requirements later if warranted. However, if we made it too cheap to begin with, and then tighten it later to make it more expensive, there would be a huge backlash.

+1 this. Oh god is this true.

I think for most Americans, "communism" refers to any situation in which there's a thing that isn't being given to ME.

I may of missed it but how does the Out-of-Subtier Gold work with 1-7 Scenarios?

Is it the average between the 1-2 tier and 6-7 tier?

OR something else?

Are you talking about when a level 7 char tags along with a party of level 1-2 playing tier 1-2? (or viceversa?) I thought there were no rules for that because you aren't supposed to do that.

Barbain wrote:

I may of missed it but how does the Out-of-Subtier Gold work with 1-7 Scenarios?

Is it the average between the 1-2 tier and 6-7 tier?

OR something else?

Are you talking about when a level 7 char tags along with a party of level 1-2 playing tier 1-2? (or viceversa?) I thought there were no rules for that because you aren't supposed to do that.

His questions was already answered, but he was referring to the fact that the Guide says:

The Out-of-Subtier gold value is the average of the high and low subtiers.

Which is a bit problematic when dealing with adventures with more than two subtiers, such as tier 1-7 adventures.

As I understand it....

In a tier 1-7 game, there are subtiers 1-2, 3-4 and 6-7. For the sake of convenience, let's say that they pay out 500, 1000 and 2000.

A level 1 playing in 3-4 or a level 3 playing in 1-2 would receive 750.

A level 4 playing in 6-7 or a level 7 playing in 3-4 would receive 1500.

A level 1 can never play in 6-7, nor cam a level 7 play in 1-2.

Oh my god, the stars! Looks like he gets a +18 on his reroll!

So I like the Out-of-Subtier in general, but I feel like it really hurts the middle level people, and out-of-subtier should have been defined as "falling into another subtier". Let's say we're running a 3-7. My character is level 5. Now, I can play the 6-7, or the 3-4. I get the same gold for either??? Also, I'm probably getting more gold by simply playing in a 4-5 now, which doesn't make a lot of sense, or even better, in a 5-6.

I understand the point of this rule, as you don't want 1-2's gaining a ton from playing in a 4-5, but I feel it unnecessarily hurts the 3 playing in a 4-5, or things along those lines.

Wow! This is exciting! I really like the changes across the board. The out of tier rules and the new inventory tracking sheets are huge wins IMHO. Great job guys!!

You all realize that the out of subtier gold calculation is totally communist "from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs"?

So the lower level guy who contributes less to the party gets less gold and that's communism?

Before, when everyone got the same gold despite their level of contribution that wasn't communism?

To quote my good friend Inigo, "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

Care Baird wrote:

This seems pretty legit to me.

Meh. I prefer this one, instead.

HA! I have a lower number than you! :)

I'm probably getting more gold by simply playing in a 4-5 now, which doesn't make a lot of sense...

Most likely, out-of-subtier for 3-7 will be higher than 4-5 by a small amount, if that's your primary concern.

I understand the point of this rule, as you don't want 1-2's gaining a ton from playing in a 4-5, but I feel it unnecessarily hurts the 3 playing in a 4-5, or things along those lines.

The L.3's in a T1-5 'gain' and 'lose' exactly the same amount from what they used to get playing down or playing up respectively. No L.3 will ever have to get just 500gp again.

Rejoice! The Golden Age is at Hand!

No L.3 will ever have to get just 500gp again.

Rejoice! The Golden Age is at Hand!

Or level 4 or 5. Had that happen a few times at conventions, and you know what? I still had fun! cRaZy!

Kyle Baird wrote:

Care Baird wrote:

This seems pretty legit to me.

Meh. I prefer this one, instead.

HA! I have a lower number than you! :)

Phsaw...

Hey, I think you might even beat Gavgoyle...

Edit: Nope, he's in the 1600's.

TriOmegaZero wrote:

Kyle Baird wrote:

Care Baird wrote:

This seems pretty legit to me.

Meh. I prefer this one, instead.

HA! I have a lower number than you! :)

Phsaw...

Funny how both of those seem to be missing a thing or two..

As I understand it....

In a tier 1-7 game, there are subtiers 1-2, 3-4 and 6-7. For the sake of convenience, let's say that they pay out 500, 1000 and 2000.

A level 1 playing in 3-4 or a level 3 playing in 1-2 would receive 750.

A level 4 playing in 6-7 or a level 7 playing in 3-4 would receive 1500.

A level 1 can never play in 6-7, nor cam a level 7 play in 1-2.

This is how I hope it is.

The Out-of-Subtier gold value is the average of the high and low subtiers.

Low being 1-2 and High being 6-7. Taking your example the avg would be 1250 for out of tier gold for everyone.

A level 1 playing in 3-4 or a level 3 playing in a 1-2 would receive 1250

A level 4 playing in 6-7 or a level 7 playing in a 3-4 would receive 1250

As you can see with this example, just going by the RAW of the guide you get more money than both the lower tiers reward in the first example.

I see obvious problem with this and was why I asked for some clarification on this matter.

Funny how both of those seem to be missing a thing or two..

Soon.

Kyle Baird wrote:

Funny how both of those seem to be missing a thing or two..

Soon.

Thanks, but I'm fine without a douchey name like Kyle Baird. Or was that not the difference to which you were referring?

Another change I haven't seen anyone comment upon: the death condition no longer carries over from Quests.

Seeing as I've heard at least one player state that they believed playing a Quest to be a very, VERY bad idea, due to risking death for no tangible rewards, I think this is a pretty sweet change.

The new Faction traits are awesome! I especially love the Osiriani traits. Kudos to whoever wrote those.

It doesn't look like the faction traits have changed. As far as I can tell, these are the same ones that have been there for the past two years that I've been playing (or longer).

FLite wrote:

Just for clarity sake. Am I correct in thinking that the language saying that if you were just following orders, your actions aren't evil has been removed?

That is correct. Since faction missions are changing, so too will your future decisions and actions matter. Your character is once again responsible for all of their actions.

I like this change.

Though as others have pointed out, we could use some more clarification on whether faction missions affect prestige in any season. It says they're optional for seasons 0-2, but not 3-4.

Just skimming the obvious changes, since I don't have time to read the whole thing but I found another minor error. On page 18, the section on retired factions includes this sentence:

Any faction-specific vanities, titles, prestige items, or other purchases made while the character was a member of the retired faction are retained by that character with no changes.

Faction traits need to be mentioned in that sentence, because you know somebody's going to ask. At least, I'm assuming we get to keep our faction traits. I'm pretty sure that was mentioned in earlier faction retirement discussions.

Retraining changes the essence of a character, even if it is just a small change. We want people to think long and hard before changing things and we want people's choices to matter. However, we also want to allow people the opportunity to change things when a new book comes out and has that trait/feat/spell/whatever that is the perfect fit for their character. It is possible to rebuild a character almost completely, but careful consideration must be taken before doing so since there is a PP cost involved. That was a intentionally decision.

So is there something in the works then that will allow re-training of traits?

You all realize that the out of subtier gold calculation is totally communist "from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs"?

All level 3 players who join a subtier 4-5 table and manage to defeat the boosted boss and extra mooks are awarded with a lesser share of gold. This makes no sense to me at all especially when playing up on season 4 scenarios is extremely dangerous. Take a much higher risk of dying and now get a tiny reward!

It's like this. Person 1 who is filthy rich risks $20,000 on spin on roulette, if they win, they win $700,000! If he looses, big deal; he spends that much every week flying his airplane around. Person 2 has only $20,000 to his name, is mortaged up to his neck and risks loosing his car and his house. If he wins he only gets $50,000. If he looses, he's on welfare!

It's not right.

Wait...I thought out of sub tier meant that your a 1-2 playing in a 4-5. If your 3 playing in a 4-5 you are in tier aren't you?!? Or am I miss reading it?

mjmeans wrote:

You all realize that the out of subtier gold calculation is totally communist "from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs"?

So the lower level guy who contributes less to the party gets less gold and that's communism?

Before, when everyone got the same gold despite their level of contribution that wasn't communism?

To quote my good friend Inigo, "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

True communism is when at the end of the adventure, everyone divies up all the wealth and gear on their character sheets, and shares it out equally.

Page 6: Added the following under Getting Started:

“You may not apply a pregenerated character’s
chronicle sheet to a character that is already at the
level of the pregen or higher. The one exception is
if you have multiple chronicle sheets from pregens,
they are applied to your character’s chronicle sheet
stack all at once at level 4 and level 7, even if this
would advance your character several levels.”

So does this mean if I play We Be Goblins, Too! with one of the level 3 goblin pregens I cannot apply it to a character who is already level 3 even though it was impossible to play that scenario with the level 3 character?

When people talk about what's fair and unfair, very frequently I can hear the undertone of what I've learned most students mean when they say that a class policy (including when a test is scheduled, etc) is "unfair". "Unfair" in those cases too often means "not perfect for what I personally want for myself right now".

(This is not to say that things can't be unfair, but I've heard the word misused so often that it's become like Vezzini's "inconceivable".)

Oh my god, the stars! Looks like he gets a +18 on his reroll!

But, come on, does he ever really need a re-roll? Who's going to rule against the emperor? :-)

like Vezzini's "inconceivable".

And now I must spend two hours of my day watching Princess Bride.

"Unfair" in those cases too often means "not perfect for what I personally want for myself right now".

This is what comes to my mind whenever someone complains about fairness.

And now I must spend two hours of my day watching Princess Bride.

Did I just tack on a few more hours? :)

Quote:

Page 6: Added the following under Getting Started:

“You may not apply a pregenerated character’s
chronicle sheet to a character that is already at the
level of the pregen or higher. The one exception is
if you have multiple chronicle sheets from pregens,
they are applied to your character’s chronicle sheet
stack all at once at level 4 and level 7, even if this
would advance your character several levels.”

So does this mean if I play We Be Goblins, Too! with one of the level 3 goblin pregens I cannot apply it to a character who is already level 3 even though it was impossible to play that scenario with the level 3 character?

We Be Goblins and We Be Goblins, Too! use slightly different rules, as you cannot play them with most PFS characters (with the exception of the handful of PFS goblins out there).

Applying credit for those modules are more akin to applying GM credit than pregen credit.

So, is the Pathfinder Society Field Guide being removed from the game, or only from the core assumption? If it's being removed from the game, what needs to be done with the characters who have spent prestige points on vanities, or used other materials from that resource?

rknop wrote:

"Unfair" in those cases too often means "not perfect for what I personally want for myself right now".

This is what comes to my mind whenever someone complains about fairness.

Kyle Baird wrote:

And now I must spend two hours of my day watching Princess Bride.

Did I just tack on a few more hours? :)

Hmm... Gaming? or Labarynth? hmm....

I love the bonus on re-rolls based on GM stars... great idea. I only wish there were t-shirts for me to purchase now. :-| Will there be t-shirts available at GenCon?

EDIT- XL size?

So, is the Pathfinder Society Field Guide being removed from the game, or only from the core assumption? If it's being removed from the game, what needs to be done with the characters who have spent prestige points on vanities, or used other materials from that resource?

It’s just being removed from the core assumption. The book is still legal to use.

So, is the Pathfinder Society Field Guide being removed from the game, or only from the core assumption? If it's being removed from the game, what needs to be done with the characters who have spent prestige points on vanities, or used other materials from that resource?

Its being put into the additional resources,

Michael Brock wrote:

Rhys Proudfoot wrote:

Are our animal companions also eligible for retraining?

No, because animal companions don't have any prestige to spend.

Also, don't forget, an often underused ability of Druids is to let their animal companion go and find another more appropriate companion for the current scenario.

If you can get away with it (and you're not super-invested in training), there's nothing wrong with dumping Mr. Tiger and picking up Mrs. Octopus if you want to retrain.

;-)

I've become quite attached to my wolf. I think it's unfortunate that a character who stays loyal to an animal companion can't undo beginner errors. Following the current rules, someone can get a new companion and train everything exactly how they like. Allowing us the chance to do this, but with current companions and resource repercussions feels more balanced. Also, depending on how much is being changed, characters loyal to their companions will generally change them far less than characters who abandon theirs for completely new ones.

Our companions don't have their own gold, but that doesn't prevent our characters from purchasing things for them. Also, we're already able to purchase items and services for our companions with our prestige points. I suppose I could just get a new wolf and give it the same name, but it wouldn't feel right. It doesn't seem like it would be a game-breaking stretch to allow us to approximate the "retraining" mechanic already in place, but with the aforementioned resource repercussions. In my opinion, being able to keep the same companion is definitely worth the price :).

rknop wrote:

like Vezzini's "inconceivable".

And now I must spend two hours of my day watching Princess Bride.

Kyle - you mean you already were not ! Rectify the situation now (I feel brave saying this as I am unlikely to be on any of your tables in the near future :-))

Faction traits need to be mentioned in that sentence, because you know somebody's going to ask. At least, I'm assuming we get to keep our faction traits. I'm pretty sure that was mentioned in earlier faction retirement discussions.

Added and thanks for the input.

Michael Brock wrote:

Retraining changes the essence of a character, even if it is just a small change. We want people to think long and hard before changing things and we want people's choices to matter. However, we also want to allow people the opportunity to change things when a new book comes out and has that trait/feat/spell/whatever that is the perfect fit for their character. It is possible to rebuild a character almost completely, but careful consideration must be taken before doing so since there is a PP cost involved. That was a intentionally decision.

So is there something in the works then that will allow re-training of traits?

Not that I am aware of.

TriOmegaZero wrote:

Kyle Baird wrote:

Care Baird wrote:

This seems pretty legit to me.

Meh. I prefer this one, instead.

HA! I have a lower number than you! :)

Phsaw...

Ha ha I have a lower PFS ID (1859) than all of you and even less stars! Showing that I am... lazier... than... all of you! Woot!

Wait...I thought out of sub tier meant that your a 1-2 playing in a 4-5. If your 3 playing in a 4-5 you are in tier aren't you?!? Or am I miss reading it?

Sadly, no. Players "in between" (e.g. a level 3 in a Tier 1-5) would always be considered to be "out of tier"

So, is the Pathfinder Society Field Guide being removed from the game, or only from the core assumption? If it's being removed from the game, what needs to be done with the characters who have spent prestige points on vanities, or used other materials from that resource?

Just from the Core Assumption.

Cold Napalm wrote:

Wait...I thought out of sub tier meant that your a 1-2 playing in a 4-5. If your 3 playing in a 4-5 you are in tier aren't you?!? Or am I miss reading it?

Sadly, no. Players "in between" (e.g. a level 3 in a Tier 1-5) would always be considered to be "out of tier"

Humm...I can see this causing some mustering issues then. And it makes NO sense. So your playing a 3 in a 4-5 up. You have more risk. You get LESS gold then a 3-4?!? Yeah...no, I think that needs to be fixed.