Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play: Guide 5.0 and Changes to Organized Play

I still think it's an overall win for level 3, because they can get 3-4 money for playing 1-2.

And as Kyle pointed out, L.4's and L.5's as well. I had one poor player recently who has been playing almost non-stop T1-5's, at sub-tier 1-2, all the way through 5th level. He might have less than 8k in gear when hitting 6th level.

Oh, that's a great idea! Have you actually seen this done in a PFS game and given GM approval? It would be nice to know that there's a precedent if I go this route.

I did it for my velociraptor when he went from small to medium and no longer benefited from weapon finesse. The only gray area is when the "once per session" is (start, end, or possibly during if you've got a long overland trip somewhere). If the DM says end, you can get by for one session with the critter knowing Attack attack come as his bonus tricks (which he starts off with as soon as you get him)

Can we buy things on GM chronicle sheets with ourselves present as the GM? Since we're allowed to sign off on our own gold and PP gain, it seems reasonable that we ought to be able to sign off on our own purchases as well... but it's not obvious to me that this is legal.

thejeff wrote:

It would be great to have it official that you could walk in to a scenario with a list and say "This is what I've bought since the last session. Does that look right?"

I will add before to the sentence. This really shouldn't be that complicated of an issue.

Thanks. I know it seems like silly semantics, but the clearer the phrasing can be, the less complicated.

Rhys Proudfoot wrote:

Oh, that's a great idea! Have you actually seen this done in a PFS game and given GM approval? It would be nice to know that there's a precedent if I go this route.

I did it for my velociraptor when he went from small to medium and no longer benefited from weapon finesse. The only gray area is when the "once per session" is (start, end, or possibly during if you've got a long overland trip somewhere). If the DM says end, you can get by for one session with the critter knowing Attack attack come as his bonus tricks (which he starts off with as soon as you get him)

What if the companion was released when it had 3 Int from a level-based ability boost?

Sentient Companions: a sentient companion (a creature that can understand language and has an Intelligence score of at least 3) is considered your ally and obeys your suggestions and orders to the best of its ability. It won't necessarily blindly follow a suicidal order, but it has your interests at heart and does what it can to keep you alive.

Does that mean tricks are no longer needed?

I will add before to the sentence. This really shouldn't be that complicated of an issue.

I'm sorry, this issue is far too complicated for my simple brain.

Can I DEMAND that we put out another Organized Play guide (5.1) that details all the changes presented in this forum thread. Seven pages of posts of such high caliber as these is hard for me to process.

Otherwise, can someone just sum this all up for me? ;)

TLDR.

... describe it to me.

TLDR.

... describe it to me.

While disrobing. Slowly.

Thurston Hillman wrote:

TLDR.

... describe it to me.

While disrobing. Slowly.

I feel...violated...

Michael Brock wrote:

I will add before to the sentence. This really shouldn't be that complicated of an issue.

I'm sorry, this issue is far too complicated for my simple brain.

Can I DEMAND that we put out another Organized Play guide (5.1) that details all the changes presented in this forum thread. Seven pages of posts of such high caliber as these is hard for me to process.

Otherwise, can someone just sum this all up for me? ;)

TLDR.

... describe it to me.

The important thing to remember is that the Guide released today is the draft version. Mike has already said that there will be a revised version next week that fixes all the little details people have been complaining about here.

BigNorseWolf wrote:

Rhys Proudfoot wrote:

Oh, that's a great idea! Have you actually seen this done in a PFS game and given GM approval? It would be nice to know that there's a precedent if I go this route.

I did it for my velociraptor when he went from small to medium and no longer benefited from weapon finesse. The only gray area is when the "once per session" is (start, end, or possibly during if you've got a long overland trip somewhere). If the DM says end, you can get by for one session with the critter knowing Attack attack come as his bonus tricks (which he starts off with as soon as you get him)

What if the companion was released when it had 3 Int from a level-based ability boost?

Quote:

Sentient Companions: a sentient companion (a creature that can understand language and has an Intelligence score of at least 3) is considered your ally and obeys your suggestions and orders to the best of its ability. It won't necessarily blindly follow a suicidal order, but it has your interests at heart and does what it can to keep you alive.

Does that mean tricks are no longer needed?

No, animals, at least in PFS, are never freed from the trick system. Mr. Brock had a post or update stating that increasing the int of the pet does not alleviate any control mechanics. It's still an animal. I think this category is more for eidolons. Eidolons should have some mechanical advantage over animal companions, imo, so this seems appropriate.

Mr. Brock had a post or update stating that increasing the int of the pet does not alleviate any control mechanics...

I don't think Mike's dad even has a forum account...

Lab_Rat wrote:

Will all characters (both new and old) be required to use the inventory tracker? If so, should I just right in everything on the tracker and then get my next GM to initial the whole batch?

Yes. Check the FAQ please.

With respect, I think this is going too far.

I don't particularly like the new inventory tracking and sign-off rules (it's already hard enough running a scenario under the time limits sometimes), but to ask me to go back and transcribe 30 some records of purchases, item uses, and sales IMHO is asking a little much.

I did a full character audit of my wizard before Eyes of the Ten making sure I spent all the gold I was supposed to spent (since keeping track of scrolls plus scribing costs often gets a little cumbersome) and the entire process took me roughly 4-6 hours (one evening dedicated solely to this activity), I do not want to, nor do I intend to spend even half that time to transcribe/audit my other 8 characters (the lowest level of which is 4).

David Bowles wrote:

Mr. Brock had a post or update stating that increasing the int of the pet does not alleviate any control mechanics...

I don't think Mike's dad even has a forum account...

He doesn't. I just banned him.

I'm with Mister Slanky. Not looking forward to going through my 100+ chronicles to fill out the new tracking sheets.

I'm with Mister Slanky. Not looking forward to going through my 100+ chronicles to fill out the new tracking sheets.

I don't know, I'm all for it... as a GM I don't want to go through a player's 10,000 chronicles to determine what they have. One solid sheet of inventory goodness is fine by me.

TLDR - "Describe it to me."

What if the companion was released when it had 3 Int from a level-based ability boost?

When you re acquire it it has the capacity for three extra tricks (if you still make him brainy), but doesn't know them until you teach him.

Does that mean tricks are no longer needed?

Nope , still need handle animal

Michael Brock wrote:

Lab_Rat wrote:

Will all characters (both new and old) be required to use the inventory tracker? If so, should I just right in everything on the tracker and then get my next GM to initial the whole batch?

Yes. Check the FAQ please.

With respect, I think this is going too far.

I don't particularly like the new inventory tracking and sign-off rules (it's already hard enough running a scenario under the time limits sometimes), but to ask me to go back and transcribe 30 some records of purchases, item uses, and sales IMHO is asking a little much.

I did a full character audit of my wizard before Eyes of the Ten making sure I spent all the gold I was supposed to spent (since keeping track of scrolls plus scribing costs often gets a little cumbersome) and the entire process took me roughly 4-6 hours (one evening dedicated solely to this activity), I do not want to, nor do I intend to spend even half that time to transcribe/audit my other 8 characters (the lowest level of which is 4).

4-6 hours...really? I went through my six characters last night, levels 3-11, and it took 90 minutes. I just transcribed directly from Chronicle sheets to the Inventory Tracking Form. Maybe my experience is just the exception and not the rule. I will do a little more research to see if other people's experiences are the same as your's with 4-6 hours to have to transcribe one character. If so, then we can readdress the issue.

Kyle Baird wrote:

I should also point out that scenarios have a 'strongly recommended' 5% wealth variance which means that 3-4 and out of tier 4-5 can overlap. But OMG, three scenarios at 83 gold, that's like 249 gold or something! I'll never be able to make that up by continually targeting tables that will let me play up every single time so that I can get the most wealth possible so I can be the strongest character ever and walk all over scenarios and complain on the messageboards that scenarios are too easy and then cry when my character can't get all its prestige in a mission or an item gets crossed off its sheet or some GM targets my character and kills it even though the tactics don't explicitly state that it will eat my character.

Hi! You post a lot and have a big presence on the forums! It would be better if you did not insult other posters like this, as it doesn't help anyone, really.

Cold napalm was saying that a level 3 playing in a 4-5 incurs a lot of risk for less gold, which is true. I don't remember him saying he needed to maximize his gold, just wondering why the risk reward seemed skewed in a strange way

I wasn't responding to anyone specifically, if I was I would have quoted them or addressed them personally. If you feel offended by what I wrote then A) I'm sorry that I don't care that you're offended and B) it's likely my little jab hit close to home.

4-6 hours...really? I went through my six characters last night, levels 3-11, and it took 90 minutes. I just transcribed directly from Chronicle sheets to the Inventory Tracking Form.

Yes,

There was a season 0 transition and I buy a lot of alchemical gear. I also had a lot of cross-referencing to ensure that my spells were properly paid for and transcribed correctly (my notes were good, but on at least three occasions I had to flip the chronicle over and write my purchases on the back). I was really surprised how long it all took.

Maybe reduce it at least to the things you currently own? Not all scrolls, wands, potions, elixiers you purchased and got rid off? I mean, already listing things like candles is a bit off, but most of my PCs own them.
One suggestion: Only magical and alchemical gear and consumables? Would make bookkeeping a bit easier.
Living Greyhawk did it similarly, and their sheet was okay. Ordered by item slot, and then consumables extra. And lots more space on it. Just something for consideration.

Michael Brock wrote:

4-6 hours...really? I went through my six characters last night, levels 3-11, and it took 90 minutes. I just transcribed directly from Chronicle sheets to the Inventory Tracking Form.

Yes,

There was a season 0 transition and I buy a lot of alchemical gear. I also had a lot of cross-referencing to ensure that my spells were properly paid for and transcribed correctly (my notes were good, but on at least three occasions I had to flip the chronicle over and write my purchases on the back). I was really surprised how long it all took.

Just for my 4th level Wizard, it took me roughly 1 hour to make sure all my purchases were up to date and legit.

For my GM credit baby, I had to account for like 6 levels worth of chronicles and gold to make sure he was legit. He's only a Fighter/Rogue, and that took at least 3 hours of time.

I imagine the better records you keep of your characters, the quicker this will go. But I guarantee you that 90% of the players out there do not track the use of consumables on their chronicle sheets.

I usually keep very good records for the characters I actually play a lot. But the GM credit characters that I play once every 3 or 4 levels have atrocious records. Sometimes I record the play experience in Hero Lab, update the character there, but don't even have the GM Credit chronicle printed out yet. So when I know I'm going to play them, I have to go back and figure out which chronicle to attribute which purchases to.

I know, its my own fault. But I believe that even worse record keeping is the typical across PFS player base, than better. And that's with characters they play regularly.

I would expect the average time to redo your inventories to take much, much shorter than 4-6 hours. And, as a GM, it would be sooooooo much easier to look at 1 page to make sure someone didn't sneak something in (benevolent bandolier, anyone?)

Can we buy things on GM chronicle sheets with ourselves present as the GM? Since we're allowed to sign off on our own gold and PP gain, it seems reasonable that we ought to be able to sign off on our own purchases as well... but it's not obvious to me that this is legal.

I've certainly assumed it is.

That's particularly important if you're buying items with PP (stocking up on wands, potions, etc., at 2PP a time). Technically you can only do this once per scenario, so if you GM three scenarios in a row you can't just buy all those items the next time you actually sit down to play the character again. There are also the initial purchases for GM credit babies; I've got a character who's probably going to be 3rd level by the time he (or she ...) is first played; I haven't even finally decided what race and class he will be, let alone what items to purchase.

I've already had chronicles where I had to staple more paper to them for buying too many items. Having one that's formatted is fine with me.

The amount of line items to fill out a gunslinger's ammo types is astounding.

Alex McGuire wrote:

I'm with Mister Slanky. Not looking forward to going through my 100+ chronicles to fill out the new tracking sheets.

I don't know, I'm all for it... as a GM I don't want to go through a player's 10,000 chronicles to determine what they have. One solid sheet of inventory goodness is fine by me.

TLDR - "Describe it to me."

The most you'd have to go through are 32, unless running the Eyes or a high level module. And you'd still have to go through them anyway if you wanted to be sure he actually had as much money as he spent. I'll also have to do this for my Seeker character, who may ever play one game (the Gen Con Special) outside of his normal group. Back of the envelope math, I have 124 chronicles over 9 characters (2 3rd, 2 4th, 1 5th, 1 7th, 1 8th, 1 10th, 1 13th; if my math seems off its because I've got a lot of module credit). It won't be a problem for some of my characters, but others are going to be a headache, taking well over an hour.

Wow, I'd never have guessed that the tracking sheet would be such a big deal for some folks. I mean, not too long ago I transferred a character onto the newest version of the custom character sheet I use, and as part of that process (since my sheet includes weight tracking and a whole page of item slots) I went back through all my chronicles to make sure all purchases were accounted for, recorded in the proper slots/boxes, and then accurately reflected in the PC's stats. That whole process took me less time than I normally spend deliberating about what to buy or where to put my skill ranks or what new spells to learn. Filling out some tracking sheets as part of my normal pre-game-day "rituals" for whatever PC I'm playing seems like a near-trivial addition.

EDIT: The PC in question is (and was at the time) an 8th-level cleric.

Wow, I'd never have guessed that the tracking sheet would be such a big deal for some folks. I mean, not too long ago I transferred a character onto the newest version of the custom character sheet I use, and as part of that process (since my sheet includes weight tracking and a whole page of item slots) I went back through all my chronicles to make sure all purchases were accounted for, recorded in the proper slots/boxes, and then accurately reflected in the PC's stats. That whole process took me less time than I normally spend deliberating about what to buy or where to put my skill ranks or what new spells to learn. Filling out some tracking sheets as part of my normal pre-game-day "rituals" for whatever PC I'm playing seems like a near-trivial addition.

EDIT: The PC in question is (and was at the time) an 8th-level cleric.

Doing the tracking sheet for the new purchases from one chronicle sheet isn't the issue. It's going back through all of them from two years of playing 100+ sessions and GMing 50ish sessions before I can play a game after August 14 that's the killer. I'm more than happy to fill this out every time going forward, though, just like I've always filled out my purchases on the chronicle sheets in the past.

The FAQ does not say that the tracking form has to be applied retroactively. It says this:

Is it mandatory to utilize the new Inventory Tracking Sheet introduced in Guide 5.0?

Yes, the use of the Inventory Tracking Sheet is mandatory for all Pathfinder Society Organized Play characters. It will allow a much faster optional character audit by GMs before a game session.

If you have been using a different inventory tracking sheet before the release of Guide 5.0, you may have the GM at your next game sign off on it. Once that inventory sheet is filled, you should switch to the Inventory Tracking Sheet located in the back of the Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play.

If you have been using a different sheet, you should get it signed off. I haven't. I've been using the Chronicles, just like everyone else has been for five years.

I have no problem using the sheet going forward. (I don't love it, but I understand the intent.) But I don't think retroactive application of it is necessary or prudent--this is going to require a lot of paperwork from a lot of people, and in fact, puts more work on people who have been in the campaign longer.

So I tend to go through a lot of consumables on some characters. I currently have not been tracking when they are used, just when they are bought, most are replaced immediately but some I choose not to replace. I know I don't have them because they are not on my character sheet but I don't know when they were used.

I presume I should do the best I can on filling out the inventory tracker.

Maybe reduce it at least to the things you currently own? Not all scrolls, wands, potions, elixiers you purchased and got rid off?

Just from a *booking* perspective I think this would be a better default. If you have everyone transcribe everything they have on the chronicle sheets there will be a ton of expendable items that get 'unexpended' as players 'discover' they 'forgot' to write them down (completely forgetting they were used up right away, or three scenarios later).

Good system for "go-forward", not a great idea for "look-back/catch-up".

Writing out a "current-state" sheet is what I'll be encouraging at my local gameday.

From a bookkeeping perspective, I think I'm just going to have the computer do it all for me. I didn't start playing tabletop RPGs so I'd be expected to work with math, that's silly talk.

HeroLab. There's money to be made here... good money....

So I tend to go through a lot of consumables on some characters. I currently have not been tracking when they are used, just when they are bought, most are replaced immediately but some I choose not to replace. I know I don't have them because they are not on my character sheet but I don't know when they were used.

I presume I should do the best I can on filling out the inventory tracker.

Ditto on the consumables, and when I've bought a stack of mundane items like rope, caltrops, etc. that wouldn't fit in the space on the sheet, it has gone down as 'Adventuring Supplies xx gp'. It's going to be a real pain to reverse engineer that for characters where I haven't kept previous sheets.

I'm happy to switch to the sheets going forwards - I'd actually just got a notebook per character to try and keep better record of purchases and consumables as we don't have the chronicle to write them on until the end of the session. Going retroactive is going to be painful though, if that is the intent. Was the idea behind getting a GM to sign off the current inventory sheet supposed to include the current state of the chronicle stack in addition to whatever ad-hoc inventory sheets people have been using. Getting the current stack signed off and then switching would be a lot less pain.

Jiggy wrote:

Wow, I'd never have guessed that the tracking sheet would be such a big deal for some folks. I mean, not too long ago I transferred a character onto the newest version of the custom character sheet I use, and as part of that process (since my sheet includes weight tracking and a whole page of item slots) I went back through all my chronicles to make sure all purchases were accounted for, recorded in the proper slots/boxes, and then accurately reflected in the PC's stats. That whole process took me less time than I normally spend deliberating about what to buy or where to put my skill ranks or what new spells to learn. Filling out some tracking sheets as part of my normal pre-game-day "rituals" for whatever PC I'm playing seems like a near-trivial addition.

EDIT: The PC in question is (and was at the time) an 8th-level cleric.

Doing the tracking sheet for the new purchases from one chronicle sheet isn't the issue. It's going back through all of them from two years of playing 100+ sessions and GMing 50ish sessions before I can play a game after August 14 that's the killer. I'm more than happy to fill this out every time going forward, though, just like I've always filled out my purchases on the chronicle sheets in the past.

I wasn't talking about one chronicle sheet. I mean I went through that PC's entire history and checked EVERYTHING.

But it's moot now, as Mike has updated the FAQ.

Tracking sheet FAQ link for the lazy.

thistledown wrote:

Michael Brock wrote:

Retraining changes the essence of a character, even if it is just a small change. We want people to think long and hard before changing things and we want people's choices to matter. However, we also want to allow people the opportunity to change things when a new book comes out and has that trait/feat/spell/whatever that is the perfect fit for their character. It is possible to rebuild a character almost completely, but careful consideration must be taken before doing so since there is a PP cost involved. That was a intentionally decision.

So is there something in the works then that will allow re-training of traits?

Not that I am aware of.

How about a line with the retraining section something like "Traits may be retrained using the rules for retraining feats." Or "Traits may be retrained as if they were feats." It'd make a lot of people happy.

Also, could the page# of retraining rules you already have be added to the index? It's tiny but helpful.

I don't think the inventory tracking sheet handles consumables, particularly in bulk (such as ammo), very well. I know I'm thinking it's going to be a nightmare to use it to track my grenadier's alchemical item use with it...

Maybe expand the wand section, and label it consumables?

Cut & Slice a bunch (for comic effect)

Jiggy wrote:

is the new Inventory Track Sheet mandatory

It will be mandatory.

I knew there was a reason that I shouldn't have 28 characters. :-(

Benrislove wrote:

How should upgrading items be treated on the Tracking sheet. I'm assuming you treat it as "bought" and write "upgrade from +1 to +2" for instance.

Correct

So if we make a new character, should we write all the starting equipment on the tracking sheet and list that as chronicle #0?

If not, how do we track starting equipment?

Sorry if this has already been asked, only read about 1/3 of the thread so far.

This just occurred to me, and I think it's rather important: as the Guide is currently written, you are allowing the HP retraining option from Ultimate Campaign, allowing characters to spend gp and prestige to increase, one at a time, up to the maximum they could have rolled.

You should not allow this.

Allowing this, in my opinion, comes way too close to a "pay-to-win" situation. It would allow players who own Ultimate Campaign to have more hit points than players who don't, even with the exact same build.

This just occurred to me, and I think it's rather important: as the Guide is currently written, you are allowing the HP retraining option from Ultimate Campaign, allowing characters to spend gp and prestige to increase, one at a time, up to the maximum they could have rolled.

You should not allow this.

Allowing this, in my opinion, comes way too close to a "pay-to-win" situation. It would allow players who own Ultimate Campaign to have more hit points than players who don't, even with the exact same build.

If players want to spend 3 PP per HP increased, more power to them. I can think of much better ways to spend PP.

Allowing this, in my opinion, comes way too close to a "pay-to-win" situation. It would allow players who own Ultimate Campaign to have more hit points than players who don't, even with the exact same build.

I think you should playtest this, spending your prestige to retrain your characters HP up to the maximum, and report your findings after they reach level 12.

I'd do it, but I'm saving my PP for raise dead and other prestige costs. Edit: Like those wands of CLW everyone harps about.

thistledown wrote:

Michael Brock wrote:

Retraining changes the essence of a character, even if it is just a small change. We want people to think long and hard before changing things and we want people's choices to matter. However, we also want to allow people the opportunity to change things when a new book comes out and has that trait/feat/spell/whatever that is the perfect fit for their character. It is possible to rebuild a character almost completely, but careful consideration must be taken before doing so since there is a PP cost involved. That was a intentionally decision.

So is there something in the works then that will allow re-training of traits?

Not that I am aware of.

Given how big a part Traits play in character building in PFS, and also that they are the MOST prolific item to come out in new books (at least 5-6 in like every new book), I would strongly suggest you add the ability to retrain a Trait using the same exact rules for retraining a feat, but taking 3 days. This would let you spend just 3PP to trade out a Trait, which I think would be very fair.

It could be written like this, on the Additional Resources page: "In addition, characters may retrain a single Trait using the same rules as for retraining Feats. A Trait requires 3 days to retrain."

The Shadow War for Absalom has been written out, but no one seems to have notified Taldor of the change.

The Taldor faction seeks to reclaim this preeminence—not through conquest as their ancestors did, but by turning their enemies against one another, through political victories, and, of course, by gaining control over Absalom.

Taldor’s strategy for seizing control of Absalom lies in turning its enemies against one another.

Lady Gloriana believes seizing the political reins of Absalom is the perfect medicine for the wasting disease deep in Taldor’s bones.

If players want to spend 3 PP per HP increased, more power to them. I can think of much better ways to spend PP.

Especially considering that raising the HP of a 12th level wizard to max from PFS base is 22 points (2 points per level after 1st) and costs 66 prestige (which is the max you can get for the 33 chronicles it takes to get to 12 if you succeed at your faction mission every scenario). If you get a d8 hitdie even once, you can never raise your HP to max before reaching Seeker level.

SCPRedMage wrote:

Allowing this, in my opinion, comes way too close Edit: Like those wands of CLW everyone harps about.

What is this CLW wand everyone is talking about? I have have all 7 of my characters without one. Is it essential?

Like in so many other things, Taldor is stuck in the past while the world around it has moved on.

;-)

You beat me to the punchline, Eric.

What is this CLW wand everyone is talking about?

Here you go. Have fun!

You beat me to the punchline, Eric.

Finlanderboy wrote:

What is this CLW wand everyone is talking about?

Here you go. Have fun!

I know what it is. I just refuse to buy them. Although 5 of my 6 characters can heal themselves without wands.

The Shadow War for Absalom has been written out, but no one seems to have notified Taldor of the change.

Page 9 wrote:

The Taldor faction seeks to reclaim this preeminence—not through conquest as their ancestors did, but by turning their enemies against one another, through political victories, and, of course, by gaining control over Absalom.

Page 17 wrote:

Taldor’s strategy for seizing control of Absalom lies in turning its enemies against one another.

Page 17 wrote:

Lady Gloriana believes seizing the political reins of Absalom is the perfect medicine for the wasting disease deep in Taldor’s bones.

Just because everyone else says the war is over, doesn't mean we have to give up... :) It just means they aren't going to be looking for our soldiers.

SCPRedMage wrote:

This just occurred to me, and I think it's rather important: as the Guide is currently written, you are allowing the HP retraining option from Ultimate Campaign, allowing characters to spend gp and prestige to increase, one at a time, up to the maximum they could have rolled.

You should not allow this.

Allowing this, in my opinion, comes way too close to a "pay-to-win" situation. It would allow players who own Ultimate Campaign to have more hit points than players who don't, even with the exact same build.

If players want to spend 3 PP per HP increased, more power to them. I can think of much better ways to spend PP.

I would be more worried about this if people could spend real world money to buy PP.