Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play: Guide 5.0 and Changes to Organized Play

I personally do not like the idea of retraining traits. Simply because this was supposed to be a little bit of your past that gave you a little benefit.

Of course, I see how coming out with new Campaign Traits (read Faction traits) could make one lament having taken one prior...

SCPRedMage wrote:

Allowing this, in my opinion, comes way too close to a "pay-to-win" situation. It would allow players who own Ultimate Campaign to have more hit points than players who don't, even with the exact same build.

I think you should playtest this, spending your prestige to retrain your characters HP up to the maximum, and report your findings after they reach level 12.

I'd do it, but I'm saving my PP for raise dead and other prestige costs. Edit: Like those wands of CLW everyone harps about.

My cleric has 275 hit points without needing to rebuild...

Just because everyone else says the war is over, doesn't mean we have to give up... :) It just means they aren't going to be looking for our soldiers.

..and I am sure that Taldor will have just about the same success rate in all of their battles now that there is no other side.

;-)

My cleric has 275 hit points without needing to rebuild...

Speculative math, ho!

Hm, maybe 16 CON to start (dwarven cleric?), plus FCB and Toughness, and let's assume a +2 CON item. That gives us 11 HP per level, plus 3 more at 1st.

Nope, that puts him into epic levels.

So, maybe it's a +4 CON item? 12 HP per level is still epic.

Maybe 18 CON to start and a +6 belt? That's 14 HP per level, and still puts him past 19th level.

Maybe also a pair of stat bumps, for 15/lvl? That's about 18th level.

Color me confused.

Calculating theoretical maximum HP in PFS now...

Barbarian 12...

Flat HP increasers.
Toughness (+1 hp/hd)
Tribal Scars (+6 hp at level 1)
Favored Class (+1 hp/hd)

Con.
Base 22 (from a neat boon)
25 (+3 from level increases at 4/8/12)
31 (+6 when raging, greater rage)
33 (+2 when raging, raging vitality)
34 (+1 from rivalry's end)
40 (+6 con belt)
44 (+4 con for a minute from a once per day series of stacking boons)

44 con = +17 con modifier

HD = d12

HP formula pre retraining: (20+con)+[(lvl-1)(9+con)]
Con of 44, level 12 snap shot: 323 HP
HP formula with HP retrain: (20+con)+[(lvl-1)(14+con)]
Con of 44, level 12 snap shot: 378 HP

Kyle Baird wrote:

My cleric has 275 hit points without needing to rebuild...

Speculative math, ho!

Hm, maybe 16 CON to start (dwarven cleric?), plus FCB and Toughness, and let's assume a +2 CON item. That gives us 11 HP per level, plus 3 more at 1st.

Nope, that puts him into epic levels.

So, maybe it's a +4 CON item? 12 HP per level is still epic.

Maybe 18 CON to start and a +6 belt? That's 14 HP per level, and still puts him past 19th level.

Maybe also a pair of stat bumps, for 15/lvl? That's about 18th level.

Color me confused.

There's the +1 to +5 stat increasing tomes.

16th level 30 con straight cleric

on phone: 8 + 15*5 + 16 +16 + 10*16 = 275. saves are 20/10/24, SR 28, AC can be 40 but I'm too lazy to buff. I have about 7 ways to reroll stuff too. :-)

BRING ON MOONSCAR!

So does he use poison as a seasoning agent?

So does he use poison as a seasoning agent?

Inhaled poisons seem to have no flavor.

Jiggy, I should also mention that I have a talking ioun stone too :P

Quick question regarding traits from not retired factions. Since those particular traits no longer exist, do they need to be retrained? Without a copy of the previous Guide to Society Organized Play, you won't have proof of the trait.

TriOmegaZero wrote:

So does he use poison as a seasoning agent?

Inhaled poisons seem to have no flavor.

Jiggy, I should also mention that I have a talking ioun stone too :P

But does it say anything that you want to hear?

Kyle Baird wrote:

I should also point out that scenarios have a 'strongly recommended' 5% wealth variance which means that 3-4 and out of tier 4-5 can overlap. But OMG, three scenarios at 83 gold, that's like 249 gold or something! I'll never be able to make that up by continually targeting tables that will let me play up every single time so that I can get the most wealth possible so I can be the strongest character ever and walk all over scenarios and complain on the messageboards that scenarios are too easy and then cry when my character can't get all its prestige in a mission or an item gets crossed off its sheet or some GM targets my character and kills it even though the tactics don't explicitly state that it will eat my character.

Besides, what kind of author would write a scenario where the tactics explicitly say a monster will drag your character away for lunch?

LOL, my poor Pally fall down, now drug away :(

TriOmegaZero wrote:

So does he use poison as a seasoning agent?

Inhaled poisons seem to have no flavor.

It is odorless, as well as tasteless. Luckily, you've spent the last few years building up an immunity to such powders.

I still fail to see how this new tracking sheet adds any value to the game. More paperwork always means more mistakes, not less - this should be a lesson learnt form Living Greyhawk.
New players find the existing paperwork daunting enough without adding more - Is this really the way to encourage new players?
As to people who when running from slot to slot at a convention is mentioned say that it is only an extra 30 seconds to do the paperwork I say:
1) Players who have a 1st language other than English (Do they have to fill out their paperwork in English? It's an international game and GM/Player do not have to be from the same country of origin)
2) Players who have reading difficulties
3) Players who have writing difficulties
I have seen a player receive their chronicle sheet from the GM 1st and still only be half way though it when everyone else has packed up and left the table - and like everyone else they still need to complete all of their paperwork before the next slot as well as get food, drink and any other required "comfort break" activities.

On a different note - If I was to date a chronicle 07/08/13 would that be 8th July or 7th August ? Most Americans would think it was the first, whereas everyone one else in the would think it was the second (and would be correct as I'm from the UK although my characters do have chronicles dated in both US and international date formats).
You may ask why this could be an issue?
1) I remember a time trying to explain to a LG DM at Winter Fantasy that having a date of 20/09/03 on my AR (from the last time I had played that character at a con in the Netherlands) did not invalidate it through being an illegal date. He thought that there was no date format other than mm/dd/yy.
2) At least one chronicle has a time sensitive boon with an expiry based upon the chronicle date.
May I suggest standardisation of some sort be considered? The obvious would be international format (as this is an international game) or writing the month as a word eg. Jan, Feb etc.

16th level 30 con straight cleric

on phone: 8 + 15*5 + 16 +16 + 10*16 = 275. saves are 20/10/24, SR 28, AC can be 40 but I'm too lazy to buff. I have about 7 ways to reroll stuff too. :-)

BRING ON MOONSCAR!

Your HP won't save you.

Kyle Baird wrote:

BRING ON MOONSCAR!

Your HP won't save you.

Nope. Our GM's incompetence will!

But does it say anything that you want to hear?

Yeah actually, it was a former Pathfinder. :D

Question about pregen credit added to first level character.

If I have played 6 level 4 and 7 pregen characters can I move my PFS character up to 3rd level and get 500 gold x6 for 3000 gold? Or is the max level gained only from level one to level two?

Question about pregen credit added to first level character.

If I have played 6 level 4 and 7 pregen characters can I move my PFS character up to 3rd level and get 500 gold x6 for 3000 gold? Or is the max level gained only from level one to level two?

Considering that you must apply the chronicles immediately, and that the rules for reducing the chronicle states that you have to assign it to a first level character, you could not apply all six of those chronicles to the same character, as it would be level two after the third chronicle.

I used to be a paladin.. until I was hit with an arrow to the knee...

I'm not sure if this is the right place to put this, but I noticed on page 9 of the new guide, the link to the traits page (paizo.com/traits) is broken. It just takes you to the main page.

On a different note - If I was to date a chronicle 07/08/13 would that be 8th July or 7th August ? Most Americans would think it was the first, whereas everyone one else in the would think it was the second (and would be correct as I'm from the UK although my characters do have chronicles dated in both US and international date formats).

You may ask why this could be an issue?
1) I remember a time trying to explain to a LG DM at Winter Fantasy that having a date of 20/09/03 on my AR (from the last time I had played that character at a con in the Netherlands) did not invalidate it through being an illegal date. He thought that there was no date format other than mm/dd/yy.
2) At least one chronicle has a time sensitive boon with an expiry based upon the chronicle date.
May I suggest standardisation of some sort be considered? The obvious would be international format (as this is an international game) or writing the month as a word eg. Jan, Feb etc.

Which is why I always date chronicle sheets as dd/mmm/yyyy, that is 06aug2013 - no confusion on what the date was.

We could use the ISO 8601 format: yyyy-mm-dd

I still fail to see how this new tracking sheet adds any value to the game. More paperwork always means more mistakes, not less - this should be a lesson learnt form Living Greyhawk.

New players find the existing paperwork daunting enough without adding more - Is this really the way to encourage new players?

How is it more paperwork than before? You used to fill in your items purchased on your chronicle sheet. Now you fill them in on an Inventory Tracking Sheet instead. And when you use wand charges, you check them off the ITS instead of manually keeping track on your character sheet. The paperwork's the same.

The bigger issue is the requirement that all this paperwork be done at the table, and a GM sign off on it. This has always been a requirement. I've never seen it enforced in roughly 150 sessions playing/GMing in Society. I don't expect to see that become a commonly enforced requirement any time soon. Most people just take the chronicle home and spend as much time as they like looking through their books to decide what to buy with their new money.

As for your date standardization, again, this isn't a new issue. How is that any different than before? But you're right that we should probably be writing out month names instead of using shorthand that's not standard everywhere. I do that wrong myself.

I like to date all my information as the exact number of milliseconds that have passed since midnight Jan 1, 1970 GMT.

I also got stuck in a loop for a few days when I realized I couldn't number my first PFS character as #0.

Quick question regarding traits from not retired factions. Since those particular traits no longer exist, do they need to be retrained? Without a copy of the previous Guide to Society Organized Play, you won't have proof of the trait.

You mean retired factions, right? Mike has stated, both previously and in this thread, that they can be kept. He has said the wording in the new Guide will be changed before final publication to include that.

I'd assume that anyone using those traits will have to provide proof that they existed in the retired versions of the Guide. Thanks for reminding me of that - I have two characters that I need to save those pages for.

Nidome wrote:

I still fail to see how this new tracking sheet adds any value to the game. More paperwork always means more mistakes, not less - this should be a lesson learnt form Living Greyhawk.

New players find the existing paperwork daunting enough without adding more - Is this really the way to encourage new players?

How is it more paperwork than before? You used to fill in your items purchased on your chronicle sheet. Now you fill them in on an Inventory Tracking Sheet instead. And when you use wand charges, you check them off the ITS instead of manually keeping track on your character sheet. The paperwork's the same.

You still fill out your items purchased on the chronicle as before. Filling out the inventory sheet is EXTRA on top of that. It is "As well" not "Instead".

A GM must be present in order for you to purchase items, so you may only purchase items during or after a scenario. All transactions must be recorded on the scenario’s Chronicle sheet and reflected on your character’s Inventory Tracker.

Step 8: Have the player note all items purchased or sold, including spellcasting services, in the notes section (V). If the character gained an ongoing condition like a curse or disease during the scenario, the player should note that here as well. See Dealing with Afflictions on page 36 for more information on noting conditions gained and cleared during a scenario or after its conclusion. Additionally, this is where the player must list any Prestige Awards his character gains by spending Prestige Points. Sometimes a player must have you witness a roll to verify he successfully scribed a scroll into his spellbook or trained an animal companion to do a new trick. Write your initials next to any such entries in this sections to show that you witnessed the roll and that the PC was successful in the attempt. Any equipment purchased or sold should be tracked on the character’s current Inventory Tracking Sheet, denoting the Character Chronicle # (A) next to the item purchased, sold, or expended during the course of the scenario or after its conclusion.

Step 9: Have the player finish the calculations on the righthand side of the Chronicle sheet (sections I, M–O and S–T).
Step 10: Review the completed Chronicle sheet and check the player’s math. Ensure that the character has access to any items bought and that the correct costs were paid. Verifying this information now helps prevent errors from going unnoticed on future Chronicle sheets. Once you’re satisfied with the information on the Chronicle sheet, fill in the gray box at the bottom of the sheet and sign (W).....

So when people are talking about signing off the purchase, the only place the purchase is signed off is by the signing of the chronicle as before. This rule hasn't changed - it is just mostly ignored as people (GM included) are in a rush to go at the end of the session so the GM just usually (95% of the time in my experience including VOs) fills out the character awards, crosses through stuff not obtained fills out the event line, signs then hands them out to the players.

re date standardization: Yeah, no. the things take too long to fill out as it is. No need to make that take longer for everyone because of the celestial convergence of a rarely in depth audit, someone traveling across international borders, and someone that doesn't know how dates are handled everywhere else AND someone that thinks chronicle sheets are filled out carefully.

Given anything someone, somewhere, is going to be an idiot about it. You cannot idiot proof this, they will just find a better (worse?) Idiot.

I'm still convinced audits don't actually happen, they're just threats GMs use when they think players are cheating.

The Todd wrote:

Quick question regarding traits from not retired factions. Since those particular traits no longer exist, do they need to be retrained? Without a copy of the previous Guide to Society Organized Play, you won't have proof of the trait.

You mean retired factions, right? Mike has stated, both previously and in this thread, that they can be kept. He has said the wording in the new Guide will be changed before final publication to include that.

I'd assume that anyone using those traits will have to provide proof that they existed in the retired versions of the Guide. Thanks for reminding me of that - I have two characters that I need to save those pages for.

Awesome! Thankyou sir.

Joseph Caubo wrote:

Kyle Baird wrote:

BRING ON MOONSCAR!

Your HP won't save you.

Nope. Our GM's incompetence will!

Hardly. A glorious day it will be when your cleric watches his comrades perish all around him.

Kyle Baird wrote:

Joseph Caubo wrote:

Kyle Baird wrote:

BRING ON MOONSCAR!

Your HP won't save you.

Nope. Our GM's incompetence will!

Hardly. A glorious day it will be when your cleric watches his comrades perish all around him.

Yet another shining example of the VC of the Interwebz bullying people! Down with Joe! Burn him at the stake! Roast him over a fire with a nice mushroom gravy!

Joseph Caubo wrote:

Kyle Baird wrote:

Joseph Caubo wrote:

Kyle Baird wrote:

BRING ON MOONSCAR!

Your HP won't save you.

Nope. Our GM's incompetence will!

Hardly. A glorious day it will be when your cleric watches his comrades perish all around him.

Yet another shining example of the VC of the Interwebz bullying people! Down with Joe! Burn him at the stake! Roast him over a fire with a nice mushroom gravy!

Not bullying when I'm promising Kyle what's going to happen to his cleric when I run The Moonscar for the group.

Chad Newman wrote:

Joseph Caubo wrote:

Kyle Baird wrote:

Joseph Caubo wrote:

Kyle Baird wrote:

BRING ON MOONSCAR!

Your HP won't save you.

Nope. Our GM's incompetence will!

Hardly. A glorious day it will be when your cleric watches his comrades perish all around him.

Yet another shining example of the VC of the Interwebz bullying people! Down with Joe! Burn him at the stake! Roast him over a fire with a nice mushroom gravy!

Not bullying when I'm promising Kyle what's going to happen to his cleric when I run The Moonscar for the group.

I'd like to request Mashed Potatoes.

I'm still convinced audits don't actually happen, they're just threats GMs use when they think players are cheating.

That is correct. Until you step into my state. MWhahahaahha!

We don't tie up the table for an hour with full 'audits,' but we do spot check 'reviews.'

Quick Summary:

1. Took me about 90 minutes to audit and copy (just going through the ARs in order) 7 characters, ranging from levels 2-10. It was super easy. Sure it's a bit tedious now, but if I were just starting out, it'd be smoother at the start. Some thoughts:

2. I uncovered 3 mistakes on my sheets where I had purchased the same item multiple times. Nothing major, but a few little things.

3. Tracking potion expenditure is pretty much impossible for me on the inventory sheet. Potions I cross off when used, but I don't have the dates they're crossed off. Going forward it'll be easy, but it's a pain copying them over now. (Not really a complaint, just an observation.)

4. Wands are easy to keep up with because I've been using a wand tracking page with my sheets since season 0. I just make a new card for each wand and pen in the date the charge gets used.

5. I like it the changes. The one that we're discussing in my group is the change to pervasive conditions. My friend reads the new rules to say that if you can't clean up Blind, Deaf, etc then you're dead.

Todd Lower wrote:

But does it say anything that you want to hear?

Yeah actually, it was a former Pathfinder. :D

So, does the former Pathfinder keep whining that they wouldn't be in an ioun stone if they had gotten an extra 83 gold per scenario? ;-)

I'm not sure if this is the right place to put this, but I noticed on page 9 of the new guide, the link to the traits page (paizo.com/traits) is broken. It just takes you to the main page.

Noticed that too. For the record, the current link is http://paizo.com/download/pathfinder/CharacterTraits.zip.

My only "problem" with the new tracking is that I've gone through several wands of CLW or Infernal Healing on my 10th level wizard, and I didn't really note when they were exhausted. I can make some educated guesses based on when they were replaced, but that's about it. Nor do I ever remember seeing any rule or suggestion that I note when something was expended -- only when it was purchased.

However, as of Mike's clarification that pre-season 5 purchases don't require a tracking sheet, I have no issue with the new rules, as I can be sure to document when something that has no resale value (and therefore won't appear under "items sold") is exhausted. And a inventory tracker should make things much more clear. I think this is a positive change.

However, as of Mike's clarification that pre-season 5 purchases don't require a tracking sheet, I have no issue with the new rules, as I can be sure to document when something is no resale value is exhausted. And a inventory tracker should make things much more clear. I think this is a positive change.

For my previous purchases I plan to only include sheets for what remains not what I used up.

Since the inventory sheets themselves are not initialed I guess
over time one can consolidate, old mostly, used sheets going forward to keep the number of sheets fewer.

The other thing I might do is keep a sheet for permanent
items separate from sheets with potions and scrolls

Now I just need to find the blasted printer ink already in this mess of a house.

Now I just need to find the blasted printer ink already in this mess of a house.

See if you had an Inventory Tracking Sheet for that, you would probably know where it was! :) Or at least which trip to the office supply store you purchased it on.

So are fraction missions required for 2nd pp now?

I'm a little confused over these words "Although faction missions no longer count towards the success conditions of a scenario, they may be used to add extra flavor to the game session.

With nothing before the Adapting Seasons 0–4 section mentioning anything about how faction missions interact with the success conditions of a scenario.

Secane, for faction missions right now until the official release of the Season 5 scenarios, we will not know what state of affairs the missions will be in. They are kind of keeping it under wraps and wanting us to be a little curios. That is what I think the little bit of ambiguity is about. So it is a little bit of a secret with a little bit of a reveal in the guide until the "official" guide and Season 5 is released.

Is there an issue with the language for Slow progression on earlier seasons, or am I just missing something:

Guide, pg. 32 wrote:

Similarly, a Pathfinder using the slow advancement track may only earn a maximum of 1 Prestige Point for completing both mission objectives: 1/2 for the faction mission and 1/2 for the completion of the scenario.

Previously, unless you earned both prestige points, you got 0 prestige if you were slow track. Now, if you earn 1 you get .5, not 0. Which is a great change, in my opinion.

Majuba wrote:

Is there an issue with the language for Slow progression on earlier seasons, or am I just missing something:

Guide, pg. 32 wrote:

Similarly, a Pathfinder using the slow advancement track may only earn a maximum of 1 Prestige Point for completing both mission objectives: 1/2 for the faction mission and 1/2 for the completion of the scenario.

Previously, unless you earned both prestige points, you got 0 prestige if you were slow track. Now, if you earn 1 you get .5, not 0. Which is a great change, in my opinion.

You never earned 0 if you only got 1. Its just more clearly written now.

Question for Mike Brock:

If we have "l33t Abode PHotosHop hakcing skillz" (sic) can we tack on an ammunition sheet or similar based off of the wand section? My archer wants arrows and blanches and so on, keeps a hoard and variety thereof, and that stuff is nasty to track; using the wand section as a basis would be nice.

Question for Mike Brock:

If we have "l33t Abode PHotosHop hakcing skillz" (sic) can we tack on an ammunition sheet or similar based off of the wand section? My archer wants arrows and blanches and so on, keeps a hoard and variety thereof, and that stuff is nasty to track; using the wand section as a basis would be nice.

Or you could go simpler and just cross wand off and write ammo next to it ;-)

Mike -- since the Guide isn't final yet, can you replace the word "Wand" with "Wands and Ammo", and the include in the guide a brief statement that in this section you write down things that come in bunches (like ammo, or wand charges)? Also indicate that players should pre-black-out boxes so that there's the right number of boxes on the right.

It's a fine way to do it... but if that's the intent, then the Guide should probably write it that way. Otherwise, it just will be one more place to engender confusion.

Mike -- since the Guide isn't final yet, can you replace the word "Wand" with "Wands and Ammo", and the include in the guide a brief statement that in this section you write down things that come in bunches (like ammo, or wand charges)? Also indicate that players should pre-black-out boxes so that there's the right number of boxes on the right.

It's a fine way to do it... but if that's the intent, then the Guide should probably write it that way. Otherwise, it just will be one more place to engender confusion.

Scrolls also come with multiple charges - and some magic items as well. Each could benefit from such treatment

Also weapon blanches - are they expended when applied to weapons/ammo and then the won/ammo affected get put on the sheet?