Pathfinder Online Kickstarter Now Live!

Not to be nit-picky or anything, but doesn't the Goblin model seem a bit too proportional? Smaller proportions on the body and larger head? Standing alone they kind of look 'tall'. I'm sure I'm not the only one to notice either. The unique goblin form that Pathfinder has taken is one of the most iconic things about the system in terms of art.

Along with this, since Goblins are so frequent in Pathfinder encounters, one might consider doing some sort of random generation for their clothing/armor/weapons unless they are important 'boss' goblins. Seems a bit odd for a group of goblins to have the same items.

Just some suggestions and I'm sure they have been though of, but still, had to be sure.

I only found out about this by the tiny advertisement on the side of the screen...

I see that you're not a Goblin Squad member. The Goblin Squad was promised priority access to information and opportunities in PFO. They delivered on that by notifying the Goblin Squad members first, before they tried to bring in the masses. This is a feature, not a bug.

2) The kickstarter itself doesn't appear to be leading with its best foot. Instead of details about cool features...

There is a year's worth of blog posts at goblinworks.com/blog about those "cool features". Maybe it's reasonable to expect people to use the existing resources, rather than expecting GW to have a crystal ball that lets them know which particular bit of information is important to each customer.

No offense to the CEOs, COOs and other people involved in the project, but Bulman and Jacobs have built a rapport with the community by frequently addressing us directly, in published works and on the forums.

Are you actually trying to say that Ryan Dancey and the rest haven't? Have you looked at the PFO Forums?

Rats Archive wrote:

I only found out about this by the tiny advertisement on the side of the screen...

I see that you're not a Goblin Squad member. The Goblin Squad was promised priority access to information and opportunities in PFO. They delivered on that by notifying the Goblin Squad members first, before they tried to bring in the masses. This is a feature, not a bug.

"We want your money!" shouldn't really be treated as privileged information. If they get a chance to carve it into the moon so that any schmuck with two eyes can find out about the cash drive, they should. If you want to sell privileged information, you need to tell potential buyers that they can buy access to privileged information.

Rats Archive wrote:

2) The kickstarter itself doesn't appear to be leading with its best foot. Instead of details about cool features...

There is a year's worth of blog posts at goblinworks.com/blog about those "cool features". Maybe it's reasonable to expect people to use the existing resources, rather than expecting GW to have a crystal ball that lets them know which particular bit of information is important to each customer.

Excellent. Now let's get them take the highlights of that blog and staple it to the front of the presentation instead of the back. Give people a reason to dig for details and they will. Maybe it's reasonable to expect sellers to sell their product too.

Rats Archive wrote:

No offense to the CEOs, COOs and other people involved in the project, but Bulman and Jacobs have built a rapport with the community by frequently addressing us directly, in published works and on the forums.

Are you actually trying to say that Ryan Dancey and the rest haven't? Have you looked at the PFO Forums?

I'm saying if you want to get free media attention, you need to use people or features that can get free media attention. Open up any pathfinder book and odds are the first two names you see in the are Bulmahn and Jacobs. Open up any AP and count who gets named and how often in the forward. Dancey might be building a name for himself, but personally as an outsider looking in, I haven't heard of him. And that's ok. He will make some waves during the project I'm sure, but until the kickstarter gets a foot in the door and has some media attention lined up, let the game make some waves first.

So, this stuff:

Loremaster - patrons at this level get all the Music Lover rewards. In addition, you will recieve a PDF or e-book of a Pathfinder novel which takes place in the Crusader Road area where Pathfinder Online will start out, and will showcase the storylines that will be in effect at the start of the game. You'll also receive a 32-page PDF sourcebook providing all the details about Fort Indomitable, the second Pathfinder Online starter town.

I hope this stuff will still be available to the Golarion geeks, such as myself, who aren't interested in the MMO.

"We want your money!" shouldn't really be treated as privileged information.

How about "Here's your chance to get into the game at launch!"? Are you okay with Goblinworks following through on their promise to the Goblin Squad?

The Goblin Squad will receive special alerts letting them know about new information first, and we’ll give special priority to Goblin Squad members throughout the development process.

From Announcing Kickstarter for the Development of the Pathfinder Online MMO!:

Because the Goblin Squad is so important to us, we're contacting you first, as we promised. We hope you take advantage of this early notice to become the first to join us as we Crowdforge Pathfinder Online.

I have no problem with them telling Goblin Squad members about the kickstarter being up, in fact I'm glad they did. They can throw it up on a special forum, they can send e-mails out to current members, both very good ideas. But unless the plan is to only get donation from current members, they should you know, do everything they can to mention it to everyone else too.

As you've pointed out, GS members have now been informed; is it ok for them to let the cat out of the bag now?

A day is not long enough to get information out the the GS and give them a good shot at getting in the first wave, I would expect more heavy public outreach in a week or two.

A day is not long enough to get information out the the GS and give them a good shot at getting in the first wave, I would expect more heavy public outreach in a week or two.

I don't know how much attention you pay to other kickstarters, but looking through kicktraq it seems clear to me that if you're going to raise a lot of cash, you need to have a great first 24 hours. For example, project eternity hit their Funding goal of $900,000 in the first 24 hours. Wasteland 2 and Doublefine had similar early blowouts. If the first day isn't so great, people worry that it's a waste of time or that the project is somehow untrustworthy and that drags all donations down. I think that they're going to hit their goal in time, but what I really want to see is for them to triple it instead.

For that to happen, minutes matter right now.

... it seems clear to me that if you're going to raise a lot of cash, you need to have a great first 24 hours.

kicktraq.com - Star Citizen

I still expect they'll make the million. But it's not going to be as easy a road as a lot of people around here seem to think.

I completely agree with Rats Archive. The Kickstarter pitch is poor. The likely result of the game eventually managing a million plus will be due to people pushing it on their friends, and not because the pitch was so good.

Reams and reams of blogs are completely irrelevant to the majority of Kickstarter backers.

Instead of going with "we have these awesome ideas" (even in bullet points) you get generalizations.

I hope that future updates address these shortcomings. Because what's not ON the Kickstarter is NOT selling the project.

Rats Archive wrote:

... it seems clear to me that if you're going to raise a lot of cash, you need to have a great first 24 hours.

kicktraq.com - Star Citizen

SC had well over a million already pledged on their OWN site before they launched their Kickstarter.

So, this stuff:

Loremaster - patrons at this level get all the Music Lover rewards. In addition, you will recieve a PDF or e-book of a Pathfinder novel which takes place in the Crusader Road area where Pathfinder Online will start out, and will showcase the storylines that will be in effect at the start of the game. You'll also receive a 32-page PDF sourcebook providing all the details about Fort Indomitable, the second Pathfinder Online starter town.

I hope this stuff will still be available to the Golarion geeks, such as myself, who aren't interested in the MMO.

Well, no one ever said that you had to play the MMO. ;-)

So, this stuff:

Kickstarter wrote wrote:

Loremaster - patrons at this level get all the Music Lover rewards. In addition, you will recieve a PDF or e-book of a Pathfinder novel which takes place in the Crusader Road area where Pathfinder Online will start out, and will showcase the storylines that will be in effect at the start of the game. You'll also receive a 32-page PDF sourcebook providing all the details about Fort Indomitable, the second Pathfinder Online starter town.

I hope this stuff will still be available to the Golarion geeks, such as myself, who aren't interested in the MMO.

I'm hoping there ends up being a way to get hardcopies (other than taking them off to get printed and bound myself).

erm

does my combat rely on my button skills or my characters BAB etc?

I agree that the Kickstarter could do with more detail about the game. As it stands it reads more like a pitch for people who are already following the game closely. For myself I stopped following the details about the game when it became apparent it was going down a road that I wasn't so interested in, so I'm not up to date on whether the latest additions may make it more appealing or not. At the very least it would be nice to have a little blurb linking to where I could read more about various topics on the Goblin Works blog or elsewhere.

There's heaps of time to go and I imagine the plan would be to add in more details as it goes along to widen the 'net' anyway. But as it stands there isn't really much for me to go on to see if the game is anywhere closer to matching my tastes than it was the last time I was looking at it more closely.

As an aside, I've really liked the idea of Kickstarter ever since I was introduced to it on these forums. But one thing I like to see is creators really embracing the concept and maybe joining kicking it forward or at least having backed other projects. If I didn't already have loyalty to Pathfinder I usually would be a bit put off from backing someone with 2 projects created and none backed.

I hope this project does well, but my main concern with this game is pvp everywhere. Are there going to be safe zones or will this be true pvp in every nook and cranny of the game? I do not enjoy having little kids or adults with too much free time ganking me over and over in games. I actually want to play without having to worry about pvp every minute.

I hope this project does well, but my main concern with this game is pvp everywhere. Are there going to be safe zones or will this be true pvp in every nook and cranny of the game? I do not enjoy having little kids or adults with too much free time ganking me over and over in games. I actually want to play without having to worry about pvp every minute.

They've mentioned within towns PVP may be flat out disabled, then there will be high security zones, in which someone instigating PVP, will almost certainly be killed instantly by godlike marshal NPCs (IE even if they kill you, they die instantly afterwards, so it is virtually never worth it for them), there will be some inbetween areas (IE if they kill you, marshals will come after them, but it is possible for them to get away), and then finally the high risk high reward areas, in which the only opposition to murder on the spot, will be player created.

In general the higher risk areas you go, the greater the rewards are (IE if you stay in high sec, you will most likely not obtain as much goodies, and be limited in what you can train and earn etc...), the more dangerous areas you go to, the greater the rewards are.

Danubus wrote:

I hope this project does well, but my main concern with this game is pvp everywhere. Are there going to be safe zones or will this be true pvp in every nook and cranny of the game? I do not enjoy having little kids or adults with too much free time ganking me over and over in games. I actually want to play without having to worry about pvp every minute.

They've mentioned within towns PVP may be flat out disabled, then there will be high security zones, in which someone instigating PVP, will almost certainly be killed instantly by godlike marshal NPCs (IE even if they kill you, they die instantly afterwards, so it is virtually never worth it for them), there will be some inbetween areas (IE if they kill you, marshals will come after them, but it is possible for them to get away), and then finally the high risk high reward areas, in which the only opposition to murder on the spot, will be player created.

In general the higher risk areas you go, the greater the rewards are (IE if you stay in high sec, you will most likely not obtain as much goodies, and be limited in what you can train and earn etc...), the more dangerous areas you go to, the greater the rewards are.

That makes pretty good sense. Thank you for your reply! I wouldn't mind if it were done that way. It's not that I don't like pvp. I just don't want to deal with it everywhere in game. Appreciate the reply!

That makes pretty good sense. Thank you for your reply! I wouldn't mind if it were done that way. It's not that I don't like pvp. I just don't want to deal with it everywhere in game. Appreciate the reply!

The gist I got from information I've seen is that you can avoid PvP a majority of the time if you're careful about where and what you're doing. You will not be able to avoid it 100% however. This leads me to believe that some of the skills that you get and can improve, might be able to help you avoid PvP. This is only my guess, but I feel it's a sound one. There's probably limitations on what you can do and for how long, hence the 'you won't be able to avoid it 100% however.'

What’s all this WoW talk? Goblinworks already said they aren't going to be like WoW and it is not a goal to de-throne them.

Sincubus I really urge you to review the Goblin works blog and understand the game before you group it with WoW. MMOs have become very diverse where playing one can be extremely, if not completely, different from another.

That being said there may be bugs like any game. Any for people who try to spoil things we have groups like this company I am part of.

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2o0ub?Chartered-Company-The-Great-Legionnaires

We will be combating these griefers and trying to protect people whenever we can.

To add to that comment, currently the three organizations with the most steam behind them are GL, PAX, and 7th Veil.

Good aligned military/anti-griefer focused, good aligned growth focused(I think), and neutral knowledge/learning focused.

All of our leaders have met and discussed working together to ensure griefing does not get out of hand in this game. Even the shadowy assassins guild has expressed a distaste for griefers and willingness to help. That is easier said than done but we have a community and developers dedicated to that task.

... we have a community and developers dedicated to that task.

And a Mandate!

Danubus wrote:

I hope this project does well, but my main concern with this game is pvp everywhere. Are there going to be safe zones or will this be true pvp in every nook and cranny of the game? I do not enjoy having little kids or adults with too much free time ganking me over and over in games. I actually want to play without having to worry about pvp every minute.

They've mentioned within towns PVP may be flat out disabled, then there will be high security zones, in which someone instigating PVP, will almost certainly be killed instantly by godlike marshal NPCs (IE even if they kill you, they die instantly afterwards, so it is virtually never worth it for them), there will be some inbetween areas (IE if they kill you, marshals will come after them, but it is possible for them to get away), and then finally the high risk high reward areas, in which the only opposition to murder on the spot, will be player created.

In general the higher risk areas you go, the greater the rewards are (IE if you stay in high sec, you will most likely not obtain as much goodies, and be limited in what you can train and earn etc...), the more dangerous areas you go to, the greater the rewards are.

What is this PVP you talk about?

So every player you meet can attack you? Or every NPC can attack you back if you offend/attack them?

If its a human player vs human player I hope you will make it so that you can only battle other players in towns or colloseums, because there gonna be irritating people who spoil it for others, becoming godlike and starting to wipe out starter players who get annoyed with the game pretty soon if advanced players with nothing else to do start wiping them out every time they respawn?

I'm sure i'm wrong and I hope so. PVP is one of the main reasons I don't like massive multiplayer games as you can't breath if another player rushes toward you of a much higher level, I sure hope you get this asking-thing if you want to fight with him and that he isn't free to attack you without asking first.

@Sincubuss

I suggest informing your self and reading the links in this post(link).

PvP will be in the game, and you will not be able to control when it happens 99% of the time. The 'safe zones' will be small and you will not be able to do much in them, or make any real progress with your character.

GW is not designing a game to cater to PvE centered players, or people who cannot handle the thought of open PvP, or people that can't handle losing their stuff upon death. They will not change this stance. Some players will provide protection to others, but if you can't handle the thought of losing your stuff, or being attacked by another player PFO is not the game for you.

Here's a quote from Ryan that outlines their stance:

I Can't Stand The Idea That My Stuff Gets Taken Or Lost

Yup, I hear ya. Luckily, there are umpteen dozen themepark MMOs for you where you don't have to worry about it. We already know how those games develop: They have a big spike, a maximum level of success, then a collapse followed by server consolidation and a starvation of future development investment due to a failure to "compete" with World of Warcraft. Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result is one of the definitions of insanity.

The only way for Pathfinder Online to be successful is to carve out its own niche and be different from those umpteen dozen other games. This is one of the ways we're doing it. Pathfinder Online won't be all things to all people. Instead, it will be a great thing for the people who want what it is. And that thing includes a world where you will face consequences that are meaningful and persistent. It's not a place where you go just for easy fun and no stress. Instead, it's a virtual world that's going to be as meaningful to you as parts of your real life.

In all fairness I do think some of the criticisms of the Kickstarter do have some legitimate points...

- Wall of Text hits you for 36hp & you gain the Staggered condition. I tend to be guilty of the Wall of Text thing myself but it is true that most people will only read the 1st paragraph or 2 of something before they decide if they are interested enough to give it a deeper look. The initial paragraphs of the Kickstarter are pretty informative to those of us who have already been following PFO, for others not so much. Honestly, I think they would have been pretty served by entering with a concise description of what PFO is to draw in folks who have never heard of it before then dived into the meat of the progress and what this Kickstarter was about further down the page.

- We got our head start to pledge early and that was great, but they really need to start getting PFO's name out there a little more to build up the pledge total. I haven't seen much about it on the gaming sites like mmorpg.com. Also it's true that there tends to be a bit of inertia and excitment built up around the initial openings of a Kickstarter. I think they maybe could have handled it a bit differently. Maybe pre-anounced the Kickstarter to us Goblin Squad Members and given us preferential treatment in counting the signups for the game (i.e. rather then "we'll take the first 2,000 pledges we recieve" , something like "We'll take the first 500 pledges of ANY type and then the next 1500 Goblin Squad Members to pledge and so on". That way they can advertise the Kickstarter more generaly and still give preferential treatment to those who helped them in the past.

- Timing was maybe not so great. The Holiday Season (Thanksgiving, Christmass, New Years here in the states) tends to be pretty hectic for folks aside from family obligations, gift shopping, travel, etc. There are also ALOT of other things designed to catch peoples attention this time of year..new movies getting released (e.g. Peter Jacksons "The Hobbit")...big new game titles (e.g. "Planetside 2") with all that going on it's easy for people to get distracted and suffer from a kind of information overload. Somethings things that are really worthwhile like PFO can get overlooked in all that background noise, if you aren't following them closely already. GW might have been better served trying to anounce the Kickstarter before Thanksgiving or after New Years in order to stand out a bit more. Of course, who knows...sometimes circumstances behind the scenes are out of ones control in terms of timing.

Anyway, the above are ment in the spirit of constrcutive criticism and certainly aren't intended as any kind of knock against the GW team or this awesome project that so many of us are excited about.

Query: Will the sourcebook have modules, a la Thornkeep?

And will those be PFS-legal, a la Thornkeep?

Because if so, I'll buy in just to get the PDF early. ;p

If I didn't already have loyalty to Pathfinder I usually would be a bit put off from backing someone with 2 projects created and none backed.

We've all backed dozens of projects. It's definitely an irritating part of Kickstarter that you are kind of encouraged to make a corporate account for running the project and then it looks like it has no history. :-( It would help if we could at least link our profiles to the project in some way, but we aren't even allowed to back it.

Anyway, thanks for all the notes here guys. We're definitely paying attention and planning to keep adding information to the project. I think we may focus on putting this stuff into Updates for the project. I hope we get the feeling of a more and more exciting project as time goes on.

@Mark, I'm not sure who you were quoting, but I believe the complaint about "2 projects created and none backed" is referring to the fact that the Kickstarter page actually says "2 created · 0 backed" righter under the Goblinworks Inc. logo. Are you already aware of that and is that what you were referring to about it looking like you had no history?

The weird thing is, when I click that "2 created · 0 backed" link, it clearly shows that the Tech Demo project is "Funded".

Right, I've followed enough on these forums to know at least that members of your team have been very involved in Kickstarter, just think it's a shame how it looks to someone who wouldn't know that. It would be nice if Kickstarter allowed you to list the profiles of a few key team members in the project bio to show your involvement. I honestly have no idea how many people care about that kind of thing when backing projects, just that I always pay attention to it.

As an aside I know it's quite a long time ago for you now but thanks for your work on City of Heroes! It's easily been my favourite MMORPG and I was rather sad that it closed down.

Edit: And just an FYI to Nihimon above that was quoting me. Whenever I back a project I'm encouraged to see that the creator is involved in Kickstarter on the backing side of things and not just the creating.

@Rats Archive: Thanks for posting and offering your thoughts. All of us folks here who are very invested in PFO need to be open to outside perspectives and constructive criticism, and it's clear that your criticism is meant constructively.

I think the concern you and Berik and voicing is about audience. The Kickstarter is written for a certain audience--us. That page is accessible and makes perfect sense to someone who has been following the blog and these forums, but I think it's a lot less accessible and appropriately crafted to the wider world. I'm having to translate for my friends, sending out/posting a version that is crafted to their needs (both in terms of what might interest them and their level of prior knowledge).

I keep going between excitement and disappointment with this project, and I'm still on the fence about pledging at all.

Pathfinder MMO? SANDBOX?!?! HELL YES!!

Especially when I read the CEO's opinions on sandbox style MMOs, and why they previously failed and will make a comeback.... this really excites me.

But then I catch wind that we actually have to pay during beta... and after some research and posts by GW staff, I understand a little better.
However, it still seems a little iffy to me.
Apparently the 'beta' will last up to a couple years, with none of the progress made by players during that time erased. Sounds good.
But then they say that players who only come in during official release won't be THAT far behind.
Ummm.... really? 2 years of play time is not enough to give a significant headstart over a new player? That doesn't sound right to me. (no matter the large and diverse amount of skills, or how "broad" they are)

But ok... I think I'm almost on board....

But then I read more about the subscription and SKILL system, and how they are tied together. How it sounds like they are copying EVE, and the advancement of your character skills have NOTHING whatsoever to do with achievements in the game (which really bugs me). You just get constant training, on AND offline, depending on how much you paid.

Of course the cap seems to be the full month subscription... but then I read that there will be a market available where you can buy "training points" for in-game currency. Currency which is available through the cash shop for real money.

Hence, it SOUNDS like someone with a lot of money can just cap out on training for the month, then go to the market and buy even MORE training points until they have quickly maxed out their character.
Thus, Pay2Win, unless I'm misunderstanding (completely possible).

Finally, the thing that bugs me the most.... is that the game systems seem to have nothing whatsoever to do with the actual Pathfinder RPG rules.
No classes, completely different skill system, etc.

It sounds like 'Pathfinder' is only being licensed because the work on the world and lore is already done, and there is an established fanbase.

But otherwise it doesn't seem to actually resemble the Pathfinder RPG I love.

I may be way off base here, but these are some of the reasons I am still on the fence. I've read the blog, kickstarter, and the Paizo forums... and I'm glad I did, because the more I hear about Pathfinder Online the more nervous I become about donating.

This was the exact opposite reaction I had to things like Project Eternity and Star Citizen. The more they showed me, the more interested I became.

*shrug*

As for the Pay Beta, I don't really get the connection with what Paizo did with Pathfinder's development or even Minecraft.
With Pathfinder, the beta's were available free of charge... and it cost nothing to create a Paizo account post during the playtest.
Even to this day, playtests are available free of charge and contribute a lot to the final product.

Minecraft? I've never played it myself, but know many people who did during the beta... and not a single one ever paid for a copy of the game, for what it's worth.

Finally, there have been some HUGE gaming disasters recently when it comes to this ongoing 'crowd' development beta games.

Just look at what Fantasy Flight Games did with their new Star Wars RPG.
To make people go out and buy a $40 book just to PLAYTEST your game is embarrassing, and FFG has lost a lot of respect from many of the gamers at my local store.
They alienated their fans and pretty much killed any future interest in Star Wars property while it is still in their hands. Not good.

I'm not saying that GW is going that route... just be careful.

@Rats Archive: Thanks for posting and offering your thoughts. All of us folks here who are very invested in PFO need to be open to outside perspectives and constructive criticism, and it's clear that your criticism is meant constructively.

I think the concern you and Berik and voicing is about audience. The Kickstarter is written for a certain audience--us. That page is accessible and makes perfect sense to someone who has been following the blog and these forums, but I think it's a lot less accessible and appropriately crafted to the wider world. I'm having to translate for my friends, sending out/posting a version that is crafted to their needs (both in terms of what might interest them and their level of prior knowledge).

Yup, that's where I'm coming from. I didn't pledge for the Technology Demo... I wanted to wait and see how that looked first, and read more about GW's intention for the game.

Seems that (for me), that was a wise choice.

Either way... for GW to stand a chance in hell of raising 1M+ on kickstarter, they CAN'T just target those already in the know. No need to preach to the choir, IMO.

As someone relatively new to this, there are definite issues with the information that's available at the moment, as others have mentioned.

BTW - The video on the Kickstarter front page.... is that from the technology demo?
Is there a breakdown I can find somewhere that details what exactly GW is supposed to be showing off with it?
Because from what I've seen already... it just looks like outdated graphics and re-hashed fantasy MMO combat with Pathfinder Iconics pasted onto the models.

Is there a lot of the demo that non-backers aren't seeing?
Something that actually showcases the innovative sandbox they are aiming for?

I don't mean to sound harsh. I realize a lot of work must have gone into that demo (if that's what it is), and I also realize it's in the concept stage... but nothing I saw from that video really made me say "Wow, this is really different! I want in on this!"

@Ravennus: I try to add some info to your views: Not change them, hope you find the below responses informative, if not entertaining. ;)

But then I catch wind that we actually have to pay during beta... and after some research and posts by GW staff, I understand a little better. However, it still seems a little iffy to me.

Apparently the 'beta' will last up to a couple years, with none of the progress made by players during that time erased. Sounds good.
But then they say that players who only come in during official release won't be THAT far behind. Ummm.... really? 2 years of play time is not enough to give a significant headstart over a new player? That doesn't sound right to me. (no matter the large and diverse amount of skills, or how "broad" they are)

There's a lot of background to your concerns (in mmorpgs). Eg in Themeparks everyone is the Hero or you can only Raid at top level with top gear due to the exponential level (grind) curve. That's all a big discussion initself.

So one reason player's won't be too far behind because a lot of features described in the blog will be feature stubs only during that time: It's a lean launch where players will be exploring and experimenting with things like the Alignment system and of course there will skill changes most likely. But because the design is so open in interaction, that's what needs live players to iterate on I believe. Coming back to skill training as recently said, you can skill train early skills faster and higher level skills slower, so the main difference will be diversity and of course things like in-game associations, but again as it's an open sandbox, those are building content for later players. So early players are in some ways good for later players.

But then I read more about the subscription and SKILL system, and how they are tied together. How it sounds like they are copying EVE, and the advancement of your character skills have NOTHING whatsoever to do with achievements in the game (which really bugs me). You just get constant training, on AND offline, depending on how much you paid. Of course the cap seems to be the full month subscription... but then I read that there will be a market available where you can buy "training points" for in-game currency. Currency which is available through the cash shop for real money. Hence, it SOUNDS like someone with a lot of money can just cap out on training for the month, then go to the market and buy even MORE training points until they have quickly maxed out their character. Thus, Pay2Win, unless I'm misunderstanding (completely possible).

Steve Geddes just opened this thread on this: Pay2Win query

Finally, the thing that bugs me the most.... is that the game systems seem to have nothing whatsoever to do with the actual Pathfinder RPG rules. No classes, completely different skill system, etc. It sounds like 'Pathfinder' is only being licensed because the work on the world and lore is already done, and there is an established fanbase.

Ryan mentioned that Pathfinder IP is not just a PnP ruleset (one form of Pathfinder) but various interpretations of the "world of pathfinder". Wish I could dig up that quote right now... .

As for classes: They are renamed as roles: Blog: Your Pathfinder Character

These are the 11 basic development paths, which we refer to as archetypes.

The other thing to mention which is brought up in the Thornkeep book about the PfO design is the major differences between PnP and MMMORPG:

- GM vs computer code to realise the Pathfinder world
- a small group of players vs 000's of players interacting
- turn-based vs real-time actions and persistence

I may be way off base here, but these are some of the reasons I am still on the fence. I've read the blog, kickstarter, and the Paizo forums... and I'm glad I did, because the more I hear about Pathfinder Online the more nervous I become about donating.

This was the exact opposite reaction I had with Project Eternity and Star Citizen. The more they showed me, the more interested I became.

Those are the things that have made me interested in this mmorpg (I'new to Pathfinder). Alternatively, my reaction to Star Citizen and Project Eternity: I was really annoyed with their kickstarter pitches initially because they were great idea but used imo very bad practices initially. I accept they want to reveal somethings and shape other things according to community interest in a "wait and see" and also stagger to make for momentum, but it imo harms the kickstarter platform the more projects use a "tease pitch" technique. :/

Conversely the info in the blogs on PfO is awesome. The biggest question mark with PfO for me, is how the tech will pan out, something we'll hear about in a future update I guess.

As for the Pay Beta, I don't really get the connection with what Paizo did with Pathfinder's development or even Minecraft.

With Pathfinder, the beta's were available free of charge... and it cost nothing to create a Paizo account post during the playtest.
Even to this day, playtests are available free of charge and contribute a lot to the final product. Minecraft? I've never played it myself, but know many people who did during the beta... and not a single one ever paid for a copy of the game, for what it's worth.

Minecraft iirc, you could play for free, but if you purchased (alpha?) you got lifetime free updates. I think when it released it was beta for ages and finally went "gold" a year later?

But that's the idea, the Kickstarter is actually cheaper than what will be offered. Ok, downside it's lower on features, on the plus-side you get early access, dev interaction and small community of very interested players. Depends what you personally value? To me that sounds like a huge opportunity given the social-drive of the game design. :)

@Ravennus

I'll try and take a crack at your wall, but I can't say I read it perfectly.

1. The Early Enrollment 'beta' has always been described as a 9 month period, and all of the kickstarter rewards are limited to 9x the amount they let in per wave. I'm not sure if it's a miscommunication internally to GW, or a change in plan.

2. Progression is more based on options that power, players will quickly reach a competitive level. Note that competitive does not mean equal, it means useful.

3. You can not increase your progression with more $$, everyone spends training time at the same rate. The exception to power with $$ is if you are buying training time with $$ and selling it for gold.

4. Too many people are associating the game mechanics of Pathfinder, with what Pathfinder really is. PFO is a MMO set in the Pathfinder Universe, the setting, characters, and general idea behind the classes, skills, feats, and spells will be in the game, NOT the game mechanics. If pathfinder is just rolling dice and turn-based grid fights to you, you won't see much resemblance in PFO. But if you immerse your self in the story of the world, you will see a resemblance to the TT.

5. The pathfinder development example, is just an example of a beta release, in line with the gmail reference made by the devs. And Minecraft had a paid beta, if your friends were not paying, they were playing illegally. The old 'creative' mode was free(just placing blocks), but the actual game that was being developed you had to pay for.

6. The 'Technology Demo' was a technology demo, a demo of the technology. It says "We can use our software and have computers". It is meant for an investor pitch, not as a peek into the game as so many people wanted.

@AvenaOats
The quote is probably somewhere in here:

Bringing Pathfinder to the Virtual World

This system of character advancement has been honed and refined in tabletop RPGs for more than 30 years, and it works very well there. However, it does not translate well to an MMO. The biggest among the many translation problems is that, unlike a tabletop game which may be played for a few hours per week, the online game is active at all times. Development of characters on the tabletop works because of the relatively slow pace the game is played. In the digital realm, that pace would result in characters moving through a 20-level development process in mere weeks, or even days. One of the design goals for Pathfinder Online is that characters should have a viable lifespan of at least five real-time years, so we need a system that has the potential to give players interesting things to do when developing their characters over a very long time, not just a few weeks.

Another problem is that in tabletop RPGs, all of the player characters are heroic adventurers. The things those types of characters do to advance and develop (exploring dangerous places, solving problems, encountering monsters, winning fights, and getting the treasure) aren't suitable for the wider range of character types you'll find in the online version of the game: characters who focus on harvesting, or crafting, or transporting, or managing towns and organizations, or being soldiers or spies or merchants. We need a character development system that will work for all these types of characters (and that will let players change their character's careers when they wish to do so).

Also, Pathfinder Online is going to focus primarily on the kinds of classic adventure content that the tabletop game features at moderate levels—exploring dangerous areas and confronting monsters and villains that are scary and dangerous, but not challenging cosmic horrors or universe-destroyers.

@Rats Archive: Thanks for posting and offering your thoughts. All of us folks here who are very invested in PFO need to be open to outside perspectives and constructive criticism, and it's clear that your criticism is meant constructively.

I think the concern you and Berik and voicing is about audience. The Kickstarter is written for a certain audience--us. That page is accessible and makes perfect sense to someone who has been following the blog and these forums, but I think it's a lot less accessible and appropriately crafted to the wider world. I'm having to translate for my friends, sending out/posting a version that is crafted to their needs (both in terms of what might interest them and their level of prior knowledge).

I concur, and as Ravenus alluded to above, there needs to be a simple and specific breakdown of what the Tech Demo is showing front and center. To be honest, I really don't think a Tech Demo should be made public, because of what it is. But, that is neither here nor there now.

Have to figure out how to appeal to Non-regulars.

Of course the cap seems to be the full month subscription... but then I read that there will be a market available where you can buy "training points" for in-game currency. Currency which is available through the cash shop for real money.

Hence, it SOUNDS like someone with a lot of money can just cap out on training for the month, then go to the market and buy even MORE training points until they have quickly maxed out their character.
Thus, Pay2Win, unless I'm misunderstanding (completely possible).

Yeah you are misunderstanding, you can get a months training from the subscription, if you buy more training on the market, that means you can train next month without paying a subscription. The months subscription is the fastest possible you can train, you are either training at 100% if you paid (Either by purchasing from players for in game coin, or by purchasing training or paying a subscription for real world cash), the 2 possible speeds you can be training at are 0% and 100%. You cannot go above 100% by buying training from multiple sources, only extend how long your training will go on past the subscription.

(Or buy extra training that you can sell for in game coin and sell to players who cannot afford to pay real world cash for training)

How it sounds like... the advancement of your character skills have NOTHING whatsoever to do with achievements in the game...

There have been quite a few responses to most of your concerns, but I wanted to address this one in particular.

There is actually an in-game component to "leveling up". When you finish training a Skill, you don't get anything right away. It simply qualifies you to try to go out in-game and gain a Merit Badge that will usually unlock a new Ability. It's the Merit Badges that actually increase your character's power level, and you can't gain them offline.

My group has decided to back this as a guild. Once we figure out which six of us are going to pay for it, we're on board. Looking forward to it. I'll pay $100 to try something once.

This looks really awesome. My favorite role playing game combined with an online platform. I love ddo, and when thinking that something better could be made and in a setting with rules I know and like I was psyched. But then something happened.

I read one of the rewards... "one month free subscription" (or something like that)...

I thought with KOTOR and GW2 we had figured out that the subscription based formula is not only very old fashioned and unneeded, but highly risky. Ok, I know that entering the gaming world is a risk and mmo's in general are an even bigger one, but please pazio do not do this!

Look, I hate to be 'this guy' but I think I speak for a lot of people when I say that I will not play this game if I have to constantly shell out money for it. I just can't do it, I'm sorry. not when I might have already dropped $40-60 and might have invested in the Kick-starter.

I know this is gonna spark a debate and whatnot, but I don't want that. Think as this as a simple message from me to you begging you to invest some of this money your getting to take a closer look at all the other games out there (particularly their store's/long term $$ making ability).

Look, I hate to be 'this guy' but I think I speak for a lot of people when I say that I will not play this game if I have to constantly shell out money for it. I just can't do it, I'm sorry. not when I might have already dropped $40-60 and might have invested in the Kick-starter.

I know this is gonna spark a debate and whatnot, but I don't want that. Think as this as a simple message from me to you begging you to invest some of this money your getting to take a closer look at all the other games out there (particularly their store's/long term $$ making ability).

One distinction this game has is that not paying for a month or two doesn't lock you out. You can still play, you just can't level. As a matter of fact, you can still do some of things needed to level. You can buy manuals with in game coin, complete the missions, adventure and trade for the coin you will need, help your guild, roleplay etc. You just can't train to actually get the badge and so you can't actually level.

You can even customize your advancemet with that months' budget. Only got five dollars? It should buy at least a little training. Got paid this month? Splurge and buy those extras you wanted for your main.

Plus, it is possible to grind your nuts off and level for free! How much in game coin that will cost is probably steep, but it will be possible.

I think you put this all together and it's as fair a happy medium as can can be made between the publishers needs for ongoing revenue in an MMO and the varying budgets of the player. I agree it's a huge turnoff to be broke for a month or two and get locked out of the game you've given so much time and money to.

PFO promises to have an adaptable model for different types of players.

As stated: The game is going to be a F2P hybrid.

Training will cost money. You get training time with a sub or you can buy it in chunks via MTX.

This was covered a few posts up if you want to take the time to read (the "Pay2Win query" link in AvenaOats post should be quite enlightening for you), and if you are in a reading mood, go to the Goblinworks site and read their blogs where they cover all of this and more in greater detail.

I thought with KOTOR and GW2 we had figured out that the subscription based formula is not only very old fashioned and unneeded, but highly risky.

If you look at EvE, they have region of 00',000 subs & YOY growth, on a single server. This bucks the trend you are mentioning of F2P or in GW's case B2P. Why?

EVE producer: F2P converts were 'failing,' subs still viable"

"You look at the companies who did go free-to-play. They retrofitted it on, and that was because their games were failing. They didn't care about the tiny nugget of players who were still playing, because they knew they would get a huge number of other players and it would be more profitable," Lander told PC Gamer, before going on to explain how such a retrofit would kill EVE's essence.

Overall quality and the desire for long-term play also factor into a title's business model, Lander says. "If you have a really good game [...] and people want to spend a long time playing it, not like a month or two but like EVE players for years at a time, they're prepared to pay a subscription fee for a good quality gaming experience."

Video: CCP talk to PC Gamer about the death of the subscription MMO

This looks really awesome. My favorite role playing game combined with an online platform. I love ddo, and when thinking that something better could be made and in a setting with rules I know and like I was psyched.

Did you miss all the posts saying that this is not the tabletop Pathfinder game on the 'net?

It is the Pathfinder content/setting, but the rules mechanics will be entirely different.

I ask because your statement "My favorite role playing game combined with an online platform" is not what this is.

Thanks for the helpful and constructive responses.
I was expecting more flaming, and it's encouraging that I didn't get that.

As I mentioned... I'm just now learning about the PFO project. However, I think hearing about various 'first impressions' can be really helpful.

At the moment, I think the average person has to really dig for solid information on the proposed game via forums, blogs, etc.... which I don't think is the best way to lead the Kickstarter pledge drive.

But a lot of the explanations I've read were helpful and it's good to know I misunderstood some key things.

I'll keep a keen eye on PFO, and when I get some time I'll read the backlog of blog posts to become more familiar with everything.

However, the actual Pathfinder campaign setting isn't my favourite... so if I eventually pledge, it will be to support the sandbox format and the vision of the developers.

I'm still not sure I agree with everything, but we'll see how it goes once I learn more.

Another thing which concerns me is the amount is how the developers will actually police the 'degenerates' that this type of game attracts like flies to a fresh corpse.
I've already read that they intend to fight griefers, but I can't imagine it's something easily done with a small team. It'll depend a lot more on the design, and from what I've already read... it seems to be open enough so that almost anything goes.

It also depends a lot of the definition of 'griefing'.
For me, a lot of my early release UO experience was ruined because of Player Killers who would camp the town borders and essentially make the game unplayable for people like me.
Some consider that fair game... and to suck it up and/or hire some other players to "protect" me while venturing out of town... but that's easier said than done.

We'll see...

I donated $30 dollars and was supposed to have the goblin icon when I post, but it is not there. Am I doing something wrong?

Oh there it is, the last 4 posts did not have it.

@Star Shadow - the icon only appears here in the Pathfinder Online forums.

GeraintElberion wrote:

So, this stuff:

Kickstarter wrote wrote:

Loremaster - patrons at this level get all the Music Lover rewards. In addition, you will recieve a PDF or e-book of a Pathfinder novel which takes place in the Crusader Road area where Pathfinder Online will start out, and will showcase the storylines that will be in effect at the start of the game. You'll also receive a 32-page PDF sourcebook providing all the details about Fort Indomitable, the second Pathfinder Online starter town.

Quote:

I hope this stuff will still be available to the Golarion geeks, such as myself, who aren't interested in the MMO.

Well, no one ever said that you had to play the MMO. ;-)

Which is an interesting way of interpreting my post.

1. I made it really clear I won't be playing the MMO.
2. So, clearly I understand that I don't have to play the MMO.

However, I have read every piece of official Golarion fiction. I am interested in the world of Golarion and don't want to miss out on some official fiction just because the MMO needs extra funding.

I also have every piece of Golarion world information (apart from some PFS scenarios, which I'll get eventually) because I am fascinated by the world.

I don't want to miss out on the sourcebook (and, now, the Superdungeon) just because Goblinworks need more money for the MMO.

You just donate enough to get a reward and add $100 for the print add-on … no problem. ;)

@Geraint

Here is a handy link to a post by xevious that has a clear breakdown of rewards for the PFO kickstarter.

It seems that even if you only want most of the non-mmo goods, it's a pretty nice deal. If you value exclusivity (like the paints on the minis or the illustrated book cover which are exclusive to the kickstarter) then it really has value. The analysis there is only for if they barely make the goal, if they exceed it, the value continues to increase.

I just thought I'd post that to help you make your decision. I have no experience with any of the PnP stuff, and I don't even know what a mini is so personally I can't tell you anything about the value ;P

Keith Baker= awesomeness

Eberron is the best sword and sorcery gaming campaign setting ever and by a mile. It's kind of a shame this game isn't based on that setting.