Changing Sanctioned Module Play

Monday, December 12, 2011

A year ago, Pathfinder Modules were sanctioned for play in Pathfinder Society Organized Play. As Atlanta Venture-Captain for a year, I appreciated the fact I could offer the sanctioned modules to local players, especially those who had played every scenario that had been released. But the rules that were established bothered me. No negative effects carried over from module play, even death or consumable use. Many players I talked with felt that sanctioned module play was not as good as it could be because of the rules put into place. One of my top goals when hired as Campaign Coordinator was to reevaluate sanctioned modules and see if we could change the way they worked to make them a more valuable part of the Pathfinder Society Organized Play campaign.

What I would like to see in the comments to this blog are what you do and don’t like about the below proposal. How will this proposal affect your game in both a positive and negative way. Once I review feedback over the next few weeks, the Venture-Captains, Venture-Lieutenants, and I can decide what changes we want to make in the upcoming 4.1 update to the Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play.

Spoiler:

Pathfinder modules are produced for a wider audience than just Pathfinder Society Organized Play. Because modules are structured differently from scenarios, the specific rules changes needed for playing sanctioned modules in Pathfinder Society Organized Play are presented below.

How to Play

Sanctioned modules are generally three times the length of a standard Pathfinder Society scenario and will likely take players two or three 4—5 hour sessions to complete. They do not contain Pathfinder Society faction missions, nor are they tiered for play by characters over a wide range of levels. Thematically, modules do not assume the characters are members of the Pathfinder Society. GMs and players are encouraged to create a reasonable plot hook for their characters’ participation.

Legal Pathfinder Society Characters

Players have the following three options when playing sanctioned modules for Pathfinder Society:

  • A player must use an existing Pathfinder Society character (without modification) within one level of the module’s starting level.
  • For modules below 9th level, a player who does not have a character in the correct level range may use a Pathfinder Society pregenerated character available on paizo.com. In this case, the chronicle sheet must be linked to an existing Pathfinder Society character and applied when that character reaches the level of the module. The linked character must be declared before play begins and recorded on the scenario reporting sheet.
  • As mentioned in Chapter 5 of the Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play, if you have already played the sanctioned module and wish to play it an additional time for any reason, you must inform the GM that you have already played the sanctioned module. If you spoil the plot for the other players at the table, the GM has the right to ask you to leave. You are free to replay the sanctioned module in order to meet a minimum PC requirement (see Chapter 7), but if you already have received a player Chronicle for this sanctioned module for any of your PCs, you do not earn any additional rewards beyond having a good time. The Tier 1 exception still applies for Tier 1-—2 modules.

Conditions, Death, and Expendables

Whether playing your own character or a pregenerated character, all conditions (including death) not resolved within the module carry beyond the end of the module. Likewise, any wealth spent or resources expended during the course of the adventure are tracked and must be recorded on the Chronicle sheet.

If you are using a pregenerated character, calculate the cost of any consumables used and mark this cost on the Chronicle sheet. Any remaining conditions are applied to the linked character when the Chronicle sheet is applied to that character.

The one exception is when a character remains dead at the conclusion of the module. In this case, the linked character is permanently dead and removed from play immediately. In resolving any conditions on a pregenerated character, Prestige Points and gold from the linked character may be used to pay for the cost of the raise dead or resurrection spell.

Applying Credit

All players receive a Chronicle sheet unless, at the GM’s discretion, they are replaying the module for no credit. If a player uses an existing Pathfinder Society character for the adventure, he must apply the Chronicle sheet to that character immediately. A player who uses a pregenerated character must apply the Chronicle sheet to his linked Pathfinder Society character when that character reaches the starting level of the module.

A GM who runs a module may likewise apply the Chronicle sheet to one of her Pathfinder Society characters. The GM must decide which of her characters will receive the Chronicle sheet when the module is completed and the Chronicle sheets are filled out. Playing a module from beginning to end earns a character 3 XP and 4 Prestige Points if that character is on the normal advancement track or 1.5 XP and 2 Prestige Points for characters on the slow advancement track. There are no day job rolls when playing a sanctioned module.

If a character dies and is brought back to life, the GM must determine the rewards for that character. The minimum possible reward is 0 GP, 1 XP and 1 PP on the normal advancement track or 1/2 XP and 1/2 Prestige Point on the slow advancement track. If a character participates in more than 2/3 of the module, he should receive full rewards. GMs and active players are encouraged to hasten the return of a character waiting to be raised from the dead.

Players who do not complete each game session earn 1 fewer XP and Prestige Point for each session missed. This also applies to players who join later sessions; they receive 1 fewer XP and Prestige Point for each session missed. In both cases players earn a minimum of 1 XP and 1 Prestige Point (or 1/2 XP and 1/2 Prestige Point on the slow advancement track). If a character earns more XP than she needs to reach her next level, she may not choose to switch advancement tracks at the new level earned.

As always, each player may receive credit for each module once as a player and once as a GM, in either order. Players must accept a Chronicle sheet for their character the first time they play a module. A player may replay a module at the GM’s discretion, but the player may not receive more than one player Chronicle sheet per module. The only exception is Tier 1—2 modules. A player may only play a Tier 1—2 module for credit once with a 2nd-level character, but may use additional 1st-level characters to replay the same module for credit.

Running Multi-Session Modules

Since sanctioned modules can be multi-session events, Pathfinder Society characters may not be used in other Pathfinder Society events until they receive a Chronicle sheet for the module. This does not apply to a player using a pregenerated character until the linked character reaches the starting level of the module.

GMs are advised to work with players who miss the final session of the module in order for those players to receive their Chronicle sheets.

Retirement and Beyond

In the interest of allowing Pathfinder Society characters to extend their adventuring careers, and to utilize sanctioned Pathfinder Modules to their fullest enjoyment, I would like feedback on allowing Pathfinder Society characters to advance past 12th level for sanctioned module play only.

The level cap for the campaign is still 12. There are no current plans for us to publish any Pathfinder Society scenarios of 13th level or higher. However, there are more modules on the schedule that are 13+ levels. We do have some stand-alone, Tier 12 scenarios on the radar for those that do not wish to play Eyes of the Ten, but wish to play three additional scenarios at 12th level and then retire. Just as with every other Pathfinder Society Scenario, Eyes of the Ten is not open for replay and that isn't going to change. So, the addition of more Tier 12 scenarios, or another retirement arc, allows for players to have options.

This part of the proposal would allow people to play a “retired” character through higher-level sanctioned modules, receive credit, and not have to play an artificially leveled character. This also helps to balance the wealth-by-level curve as presented currently at the end of Eyes of the Ten that presents 13th-level wealth for 12th-level characters. Right now it is difficult for us to plan special retirement events for 12th-level characters mentioned 3 years ago because characters’ wealth-by-level is so imbalanced.

Mark and I have discussed this and here is how I plan to incorporate advancement for 13th level and higher. This will open up the extended career of Pathfinder Society characters if people want to utilize modules in that manner.

Spoiler:

Once you reach 12th level, it would require 3 XP to advance to 13th level and beyond as normal. We will adjust the Eyes of the Ten arc so you receive 2 XP after Part 1 and 1 XP for Parts 2, 3, and 4. Once you complete Parts 1 and 2 of Eyes of the Ten, you may advance your character to 13th level. Mark and I reviewed Parts 3 and 4 and all CRs are higher than 13 so there shouldn't be a significant effect on the play of either of those. Once you complete Eyes of the Ten, you will still be 13th level and one XP short of advancement of 14th level. This will allow you to roll right into playing Academy of Secrets at level for the module. Any character who has completed Parts 1 and 2 of Eyes of the Ten may advance to 13th level.

At 13th level, you can then play your Pathfinder Society character in Academy of Secrets and receive full credit as normal, but you may play it at 13th level. We will be adjusting the gold received at the end of Academy of Secrets.

Upon completion of Academy of Secrets, the character would receive 3 XP and be one short of 15th level.

At the end of Tomb of the Iron Medusa, the character would receive 3 more XP and be one short of 16th level.

In the future, Paizo will release additional high-level modules that will also be sanctioned for play. We will eventually sanction The Witchwar Legacy once it is possible for someone having played everything to reach 17th level. We will make gold adjustments accordingly for those Chronicle sheets.

To help GMs and players use their Pathfinder Society characters in retirement and beyond, both the wealth and Fame tables will be extended beyond their current limits.


The above changes would not go into effect until version 4.1 of the Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play is released. Also, I am very aware that people might be in the middle of a multiple-play session for a sanctioned module, or be involved in a play-by-post game that takes months instead of one or two game sessions.

If these changes were to go into effect, I plan to grandfather in modules caught in the middle of multiple sessions when this goes live. I also plan to assign a Venture-Captain as the coordinator for this endeavor. Players and GMs will have a month to register their games as "grandfathered" games. After that time, no new module play should begin under the old rules. These registered "grandfathered" games have until the start of Season 4 to complete their games and report such to the Venture-Captain.

So there you have it. This is a proposal to modify play of sanctioned modules to bring them more in line with standard scenario play, as well as open options for players to extend the life of their Pathfinder Society characters. As mentioned at the beginning of this blog, I would like to hear what you do and don’t like about the above proposal, and how this proposal would affect your game in both a positive and negative way if put into place.

Mike Brock
Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator

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Liberty's Edge 5/5 5/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Alaska—Anchorage aka Dragnmoon

Bob Jonquet wrote:
Why would the new rules stop people from playing the modules? Granted, you will no longer have the opportunity to level up/down at your leisure, but since there are more modules, sometime multiple, available now at every level, there should be ample opportunity to play if you're interested.

For Our group at least the Killer is the Pre-Gens.

If mike somehow worked in the ability for any of my players to play no matter what Level PC they had and the ability to make their Own and not play Pre-Gens, I could convince them of the rest.

Locally there is a Huge hatred of the Pre-Gens, and that is my experience abroad as well.

Liberty's Edge 5/5 5/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Alaska—Anchorage aka Dragnmoon

Let me give you an Idea of what we use the Modules for.

We don't run them During our Normal Every Other week PFS game, that is for scenarios and would not be able work in the time to play a Module.

We use Modules for 3-4 day weekends where we all get together at my House for PFS Module play.

We do have a good time playing the Modules but part of that is getting credit for out PFS characters.

The Exchange 5/5 Venture-Captain, Ireland—Belfast aka heretic

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This is me trying to be brief, God help me! But here goes.

The risk without reward aspect of modules annoyed me from the word go.
Burning your way through consumables without a care in the world and death being a minor annoyance rather than the end of the world was just plain wrong. Not even a 25% reduction in gold or a loss of 1XP per character death balanced things out.

So how then to fix that?: I 100% agree with the idea of a linked real character. I banged on about a similar idea of a nominated character in previous threads on replay.

The consumables change is a natural consequence of using real characters and the calculation of cost for Pre-Gens flows from that.

The fact that you could run a game for credit that everyone could play.....that was cool. That it it means that the new guy, playing catch up with the older ones could get his highest level character up 1 whole level was really useful.

Seriously! Please think long and hard about removing modules as a means to allow new guys to play level catch up while not requiring the existing crew to perennially play new characters every time the group expands. This change a biggie and one I don't see a net benefit from.

Also if you are allowing Pre-Gens, then I respectfully submit don't impose Valeros and Co. on players. A Pre-Gen the player makes is no more or less a Pre-Gen than Val & Co. who (with all due respect) should IMHO only be played at 4/7 when there is no other practical option.

Finally when you are in an environment where you get loads of opportunities to play it is harder to empathise with those of use who can play maybe 12- 20 times a year and even then having to play different characters to allow for newcomers etc. If you say to me Yes! you can do Ebon destroyers (with an official Pre-Gen only) and when in 6 months or a year your highest level character becomes elgible, then you can apply it, I will simply regret buying the module. I doubt I would be alone in that.....

So please Do require a link to a real character so death carries over and if a player uses consumables in excess of the Gold reward then the real PC gets 0 gold.

But please don't force the use of real characters or in the absence of an eligible real one force Ezren on anyone ;-). Perhaps using a Pre-Gen when there is a real option should be treated like GM credit and no boons applicable.

And most of all don't remove the sanctioned module as a way of balancing levels in the group from The G.M.'s palette. Don't require the chron to sit waiting a real character to catch up.....

W

Liberty's Edge 5/5 5/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Alaska—Anchorage aka Dragnmoon

Quick Example..

The Last Module we Played was the Harrowing, of the players that Played the Highest level PFS character was 5th Level.

The Harrowing is a 9th Level Module that they all would have had to play 7th Level Pre-Gens.

They would have been torn apart!

I have a Huge disparity of Levels in my Group there will always be Pre-Gens in Module unless it is a Level 1 or 2 Module and due to being forced to Play Pre-Gens with the new rules and knowing they won't take that option the ability to run Modules has at the least been greatly reduced.

Edit: Much thanks to Crystal Frasier for authoring such an awesome Module. I am glad I got to run it before this rule change.

The Exchange 5/5 RPG Superstar 2014 Top 32

Will large con special scenarios be expanded to include options for level 13+ characters, or will high-level play be limited to retail modules.

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/5 Venture-Captain aka TwilightKnight

Okay, here is the thing. Mike is trying to accomplish a number of things with this rule change. So if you disagree with his solution, please provide some alternatives. Keep in mind a few expectations that probably apply...

  • Module rules are as consistent with the standard scenario rules as possible so we do not need to support two separate sets of guidelines
  • Consumables count and death matters
  • Pregens are somehow incorporated, but avoid marginalizing "real" character play
  • Rewards are appropriate and roughly equivalent to scenario rewards

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/5 Venture-Captain aka TwilightKnight

Drizzt1080 wrote:
Will large con special scenarios be expanded to include options for level 13+ characters, or will high-level play be limited to retail modules.

Currently, there is no plan to write/develop 13+ level scenario as far as we know. But keep in mind that prior to this blog, there was no plan to allow characters an option to level beyond 12 either. So, never say never. :-)

The Exchange Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

Bob Jonquet wrote:
In an effort to make the modules rules as consistent as possible with the core PFS rules, I do not think that maintaining two sets of rules, that allow player choice, is the best course of action.

Then my preference is for Mike's proposed suggestion.

Liberty's Edge 5/5 5/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Alaska—Anchorage aka Dragnmoon

Bob Jonquet wrote:

Okay, here is the thing. Mike is trying to accomplish a number of things with this rule change. So if you disagree with his solution, please provide some alternatives. Keep in mind a few expectations that probably apply...

  • Module rules are as consistent with the standard scenario rules as possible so we do not need to support two separate sets of guidelines
  • Consumables count and death matters
  • Pregens are somehow incorporated, but avoid marginalizing "real" character play
  • Rewards are appropriate and roughly equivalent to scenario rewards

Leave Pre-Gen in as an Option for full reward, allow people to make their own characters in place of Pre-gens for the current reduce award.

Death is still Matters Pre-Gen or not that must be cleared before you reach the level of the Module played *a little bit of adding the Pre-Gen rules into it*

If you have a character within one level of the Module you must play that one or a Pre-gen no option to make your own.

Grand Lodge 5/5

I'm not making two sets of rules, two different chronicles, etc. I'd rather just eliminate module play altogether if that were the case.

The Exchange 5/5 Venture-Captain, Ireland—Belfast aka heretic

Bob Jonquet wrote:

Okay, here is the thing. Mike is trying to accomplish a number of things with this rule change. So if you disagree with his solution, please provide some alternatives. Keep in mind a few expectations that probably apply...

  • Module rules are as consistent with the standard scenario rules as possible so we do not need to support two separate sets of guidelines
  • Consumables count and death matters
  • Pregens are somehow incorporated, but avoid marginalizing "real" character play
  • Rewards are appropriate and roughly equivalent to scenario rewards

If you want to treat modules as simply longer scenarios, albeit ones that require a PC to endure the equivalent of 3 scenarios without the possibility of levelling or using the wealth or PA earned if doing them as 3 separate scenarios...... The rules as suggested seem to fit the bill.

But I really feel we missing a trick here!

Default position should be use an eligible 'real' PC. But.....

I would propose that if you do not have an eligible real character you nominate one you do have and are allowed to create your own Pre gen. If you die or go mad on consumables the nominated character is punished accordingly. If the pregen survives then apply the chron at the nominated character's teir (as we do now) but with no 25% reduction on gold but deducting consumable value. This should encourage a bit of Thrift!

If you do have an eligible character, then you can choose to create Pre-Gen as above and to nominate any character for the rewards BUT if the Pre-Gen dies then the eligible character buys the farm....not the nominated one. If you have 2 eligible ones then you choose which of them carries the risk.

So it is an option to let everyone play a mod and maybe get their newer PC up to a point it can join in with other payers'. Without requiring endless low tier play as the group expands! It gives a familarless witch or level drained fighter an even break without asking the other players to risk their PCs by carrying passengers on a deadly mission but at the risk of losing their high level PC nonetheless.

Thoughts?

W

So

Liberty's Edge

Chiming in with a bit of a "low-hanging fruit" type of suggestion, which would be to keep the "old module rules" for the tier 1 (or 1-2?) modules, much in the same way that the We be Goblins module remains unchanged. Apologies if the proposed rules is already this way.

Will have to admit to having personal unfamiliarity with higher level PFS play myself (currently at 4th level with my highest level PFS char), so I can't really comment meaningfully upon those higher level module concerns.

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

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I thought it was wrong for me to express my concerns about Mike's proposal, without offering a counter-proposal of my own. It's not as polished, and there are probably some holes in it, but I think this might address some of the concerns about module play.

Spoiler:

Presumptions that Mike's Proposal Addresses
Reward without risk is bad.
Modules shouldn't have to be re-written, but should be playable as is.
Modules, played well and successfully, should benefit a PC.

Presumptions that Mike's Proposal Does Not Address
Every module should let people play any PC, no matter the PC's current level.
As much as possible, it's preferable to stick with rules that are close to the current system.
Every module should have the same rules.
One of the best boons ever in Pathfinder Society was at GenCon 2009, when players in the big interactive won gold and loot but no experience. Contrariwise, one of the worst things to happen to a character is to receive experience, but no Fame or cash.

So, this is how I'd propose we reconcile these.

  • Start with the current rules for modules. Appropriately-leveled PCs, pre-gens, and artificially advanced / reduced PCs in order to meet the level requirements of the module are all legal.
  • Pre-gens need to be linked to a PC at the beginning of the module, just as in Mike's proposal.
  • During the adventure, each player keeps track of three things: items bought, items sold, and consumables used.
  • No matter how many times the character dies in the module, the player's PC (or linked PC) gets 3 XP.
  • Reductions in Fame and base gold are as current rules.
  • The PC keeps all the items he (or his linked pre-gen) bought during the module.
  • The cost of items bought, the profit from items sold, and the price of consumables used are factored into the gold the PC receives. So, if you buy a lot of potions, and drink them all, the module can end up costing you money.

This addresses the "free ride" nature of module play. Messing up a module can be costly, giving your PC no money and only 2 Fame for an entire level. But it still allows PCs of a variety of levels to play together.

Having said all that, I want to thank Mike for his efforts in addressing this issue.

Whether I agree with your solution, Mike, I think you've done a terrific job with the process: working with the VCs, then presenting the proposal for us, while making sure that people in the middle of the process don't get screwed. It's a lot different than the implementation of other changes in PFS, and a lot better.


Obviously there is not going to be any system or set of rules that are going to suit everyone 100%. I personally probably would not play in modules much anymore but as others have stated, there would be other people who don't play in modules now who would under the new rules. Michael asked for our opinions, we are giving them. I'd be a little disappointed in not being able to do PFS sanctioned modules anymore, but that doesn't stop me from running them in my home game if I really want to play through one, so it isn't a huge loss to me.

The Exchange 5/5 Venture-Captain, Ireland—Belfast aka heretic

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Michael Brock wrote:

I'm not making two sets of rules, two different chronicles, etc. I'd rather just eliminate module play altogether if that were the case.

100% behind that.

I guess it depends on what value you feel PFS derives from players being able to use modules to let players play higher level characters and use it to let new guys play catch up rather than make everyone either start new characters or play down.

I know that in my case playing a mod with an 8th level character rather than endlessly playing 1 or 1-2 was brilliant. As as things stand my 7th level guy is on hold sine die (or flying to my next big Con) The mod we just finished will allow the new guys to catch up.

To be blunt what needs to be fixed is the idea that mods are seen as an easy option. So if you have an eligible PC you should want to play it and even if you use a pregen the eligible character's neck is on the line. If you want to apply XP gained from a module where consumables are expended , expect to apply the cost aswell as the benefit to the linked character.

Standardising rules by Removing the facility to use the mod as a way to allow a break from endless low Tier play and let the new guy catch up....seems a baby and bathwater situation.

W

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Bob Jonquet wrote:
Why would the new rules stop people from playing the modules? Granted, you will no longer have the opportunity to level up/down at your leisure, but since there are more modules, sometime multiple, available now at every level, there should be ample opportunity to play if you're interested.

Not to mention Bob, but if module play is so prevalent in their group, it is likely there aren't but at max, two or three more modules that they can play anyways, and as such, this really doesn't affect them all that much anyways.

The Exchange 5/5 Venture-Captain, Ireland—Belfast aka heretic

Chris Mortika wrote:

I thought it was wrong for me to express my concerns about Mike's proposal, without offering a counter-proposal of my own. It's not as polished, and there are probably some holes in it, but I think this might address some of the concerns about module play.

** spoiler omitted **...

Interesting stuff, , thanks for posting it!

I would still want death to be a real danger to the linked character. I feel that for simplicity just keeping track of the value of consumables used and deducting that figure from gold awarded makes matters easier to manage.

Getting XP without gold or PA is preferable to death! If you ask someone whose e.g. lvl 4 rogue gets one shotted by say a magus....ask him which is better an XP , but no gold or PA or just being dead!

If we look it at like this.....why should mods be treated differently than scenarios? What benefits do we get from e.g. Allowing a homemade pregen to play and giving the XP to a 'real' PC.

I have posted here why I see a virtue to allowing this but it is a reward that must carry commensurate (potentially lethal) risk

W

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Chris Mortika wrote:

Presumptions that Mike's Proposal Does Not Address

Every module should let people play any PC, no matter the PC's current level.

I don't get this. In every home campaign I've ever played, and I'd wager that a majority of people have played, you don't jump your character around levels just to play specific modules. Your GM typically will buy and run a module that fits the levels of the characters (or rewrites the module to fit the level of the characters if they like the story of the module well enough).

So why should this even be a consideration for module play in PFS?

I don't buy these answers:

"fix a character"
"let friends play with friends of higher/lower level"

Because:
There is a reason your character is broke. Most of the time it is not the fault of the game or its rules or rules changes, but the fault of the player. They created a character on the fringe or gray line of the rules, and when the rules were updated to draw a firm line, they fell on the wrong side of it. I've voiced my opinion often enough about this in the past.

You can do this with pregens. At some point you have to accept that your character is just too high a level and will go off doing other adventures. So create a new character to play with your friends. I have 8, and will probably end up with 9 after Con of the North.


I agree with what chris wrote. 3 xp 0 fame and zero gold should be a thing to consider.

To echo some of Dragonmoons thoughts, in my area we have about 5+ players that have played about 95% of season 0-2 and another 5-15 that have played about 75% of those same seasons, allot of the unplayed scenario's are high tiered scenarios.

We have probably another 20+ players. From these players about a quarter are approaching 5-7 level. Mod, play is a great way to have older players play with newer players, while getting these newer players the XP to approach mid to high tier.

I like what has happend with the newer tier system. There had been a bit of 6th tier problem. I really like the idea of the replay of the First Steps series.

I think the best thing paizo has are these forums, and the fact that we can share opinions openly.

My hats off to you Mr. Brock for the chance for player feedback.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Dragnmoon wrote:
Michael Brock wrote:

I'm not making two sets of rules, two different chronicles, etc. I'd rather just eliminate module play altogether if that were the case.

What rule can be brought forth that did not involved Pre-Gens would not require two set of rules? As it is you already Have 2 sets of Rules, One for Pre-Gens one with out.

How are you going to deal with Situations that the Pre-Gens use more consumables then the linked PC have?

Looking closer to your Proposed rules, letting people play there own Made Pcs instead of Pre-Gens might work as well as long as you found a way to deal with the concern above.

Allowing pre-gen use is not a 2nd set of rules. Even allowing artificially leveled/unleveled characters might not be either, but that idea is not on the play right now.

What is 2 sets of rules, is your suggestion of different chronicles and rules for how to handle artificially leveled/unleveled characters vs the pregens or real characters. That isn't going to happen.

Liberty's Edge 5/5 5/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Alaska—Anchorage aka Dragnmoon

I did not look closely enough at the rules for Pre-gen play.

I think allowing people to make their Own PCs that don't have PCs of the the level of the Module would work in place of the pre-Gens.

All other rules stay the same with Pre-Gens.

If you are using a own leveled up character for module, calculate the cost of any consumables used and mark this cost on the Chronicle sheet to subtract from the total gained.

Though I am a little concerned if the totals add up to more then the Chronicle and and what the current Linked character have, pre-gen or not

Mike do you have a solution to that issue because it could happen?

Liberty's Edge 5/5 5/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Alaska—Anchorage aka Dragnmoon

Andrew Christian wrote:
stuff

Damn you! You caught before me Delete!!!! ;)

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

Modules should be treated differently from scenarios, heretic, because they operate under different principles.

Compared to standard Pathfinder RPG characters, Pathfinder Society PCs have a Fame-limit on items they can bring to the show. They also don't rise in level during the course of the adventure.

Compared to a Pathfinder Society scenario, modules can be decidedly deadlier. In a normal RPG game, if a PC dies, the player builds a replacement of the right level and the adventure continues. If the party feels overmatched, they can withdraw from the adventure, go on a side-quest to get some bigger guns, and come back in. All of that is denied a PFS OP PC. There might be a time limit if the module is being played at a convention or game day.

So I don't mind the idea that failing a module should sting, but not end the career of the PC. Death in Ebon Destroyers is much more likely than in any 3 PFS scenarios for 8th-level PCs.

---+--

As an observation: I'm fine with there being different rules for different situations. Mike B doesn't want two sets of rules, but he's proposing three sets:

One set for modules of level 2 - 11.

A different set of rules for modules level 12 and beyond.

And a third set of rules for "We Be Goblins".

I'd be fine with that -- I'm ignorant of the issues about play after retirement and don't claim to speak to that -- but it's inconsistent to also claim that you don't want different rules for different situations.

The Exchange 5/5 Venture-Captain, Ireland—Belfast aka heretic

Andrew Christian wrote:
Chris Mortika wrote:

Presumptions that Mike's Proposal Does Not Address

Every module should let people play any PC, no matter the PC's current level.

I don't get this. In every home campaign I've ever played, and I'd wager that a majority of people have played, you don't jump your character around levels just to play specific modules. Your GM typically will buy and run a module that fits the levels of the characters (or rewrites the module to fit the level of the characters if they like the story of the module well enough).

So why should this even be a consideration for module play in PFS?

I don't buy these answers:

"fix a character"
"let friends play with friends of higher/lower level"

Because:
There is a reason your character is broke. Most of the time it is not the fault of the game or its rules or rules changes, but the fault of the player. They created a character on the fringe or gray line of the rules, and when the rules were updated to draw a firm line, they fell on the wrong side of it. I've voiced my opinion often enough about this in the past.

You can do this with pregens. At some point you have to accept that your character is just too high a level and will go off doing other adventures. So create a new character to play with your friends. I have 8, and will probably end up with 9 after Con of the North.

You are surely being unfair in saying that a character such as the lvl drained fighter or familiarless witch is inherently the architect of their own misfortune...in normal games the rest of the party could rally round...no so in OP. Also in OP the GM cannot rewrite a module. On reflection you do seem, with all respect, to applying regular gaming assumptions to OP.

I actualy agree that modules should ideally be played by real characters of the right level. This not always possible or wise though. I have zero problem with ppl making their own PCs when they don't have one suitable. I have no problem with someone using a home made Pre-gen even if they have a suitable one, as long as the real one is at risk.

A cool side effect of the current setup is freeing the group up from playing at a tier defined by the newest player...and even letting the new player catch up.

W

Liberty's Edge 5/5 5/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Alaska—Anchorage aka Dragnmoon

I would like to Add, I think it is Odd when me and Chris are on the Same side.. Now if it was James I would have to see if the world was ending.. ;)

The Exchange 5/5 Venture-Captain, Ireland—Belfast aka heretic

Chris Mortika wrote:

Modules should be treated differently from scenarios, heretic, because they operate under different principles.

Compared to standard Pathfinder RPG characters, Pathfinder Society PCs have a Fame-limit on items they can bring to the show. They also don't rise in level during the course of the adventure.

Compared to a Pathfinder Society scenario, modules can be decidedly deadlier. In a normal RPG game, if a PC dies, the player builds a replacement of the right level and the adventure continues. If the party feels overmatched, they can withdraw from the adventure, go on a side-quest to get some bigger guns, and come back in. All of that is denied a PFS OP PC. There might be a time limit if the module is being played at a convention or game day.

So I don't mind the idea that failing a module should sting, but not end the career of the PC. Death in Ebon Destroyers is much more likely than in any 3 PFS scenarios for 8th-level PCs.

---+--
s.

Hmm, I am not sure that we have to build in parachutes into mods because they are too hard for PFS characters. If you want rewards I buy the idea that you risk the life of a real PC.

What I don't want is a party of mismatched 7th level Pcs along with Ezren & co being the only option for Ebon Destroyers.

W

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

Andrew Christian wrote:


There is a reason your character is broke. Most of the time it is not the fault of the game or its rules or rules changes, but the fault of the player. They created a character on the fringe or gray line of the rules, and when the rules were updated to draw a firm line, they fell on the wrong side of it. I've voiced my opinion often enough about this in the past.

I imagine that we're not thinking about the same things, Andrew. I've seen all three of the situations I've described: the witch who can't afford to get her familiar back, the 5th-level fighter with four permanent negative levels, and the permanently blinded character.

They weren't on some weird gray zone. They were normal characters who ran into bad dice rolls. In all cases, the player wanted to continue to play the PC, if only there were a way to get the character fixed.

Now, I imagine you're talking about a player who find his druid messed up when the rules were clarified to require her to have ranks in Handle Animal, or whose centaur-synthesist suddenly couldn't cast spells in his quadruped form. I agree with you, that sometimes those are players who were deliberately skirting on vague rules. But sometimes they've been players who are honestly building characters according to the rules they know and who get caught by either (a) rules clarifications and changes, or (b) a new GM who knows the rules better than her usual GMs, and who suddenly won't let her get away with something she honestly didn't know was a rules violation.

The antagonize feat is really powerful under certain circumstances. Maybe it'll be changed, and maybe a fighter who uses Antagonize will be messed up. Does that serve him right?

Sorry, my friend. None of that matters.

In all cases, this organized play environment is better if there is a way for players to repair PCs who are currently at a dead-end. It is always better to look for solutions rather than to look for someone to blame.

Liberty's Edge 5/5 Venture-Captain, Missouri—Cape Girardeau aka Arnim Thayer

Voicing my opinion.

I have a strong opinion opposing the "no risk" policy of Module play as it sets right now with the current rules set. The no consequences for death or the use of consumables has lead to some of the most suicidal play of pre-gens I have ever seen, both in Module play and PFS Scenarios. I have watched a table play a Module for PFS credit with character concept builds they would never REALLY play in PFS Organized Play run crazily through a scenario with no cares, knowing that they were going to apply the Chronicle to their "real" PFS characters when they were done; characters who had no risk of loss. The new proposal addresses that. For that reason alone, I like the "new rules" over the "old rules."

With the "Retirement Arc" version of the high level Modules (13+), these are offered to those players looking for something more after the level cap, but with the feeling that they remain in PFS play.(Surprisingly, not as many complaints about this part of the proposal!) For that reason too, I like the "new rules" over the "old rules."

My only concerns have been voiced already... how does one apply the Module Chronicles to his "linked" character if the pre-gen dies and the linked character cannot afford to have Raise Dead cast? Why do the pre-gens have to be so, for lack of a better word, solid in their build, without choices a player can make on them?

Some solutions... based on my own questions.
1) A Chronicle can be linked to a character lower than the level range of the Module by playing a pre-gen (i.e. linking a 5th level PC to level 7-9 Module using the level 7 version of Ezren), but the Chronicle DOES NOT get applied to the character until they would have been able to play that Module at the minimum level (i.e. the 5th level character would be unable to apply that Chronicle until 7th leve, at which point he would have to resolve any issues, such as death or such).

2) Rewrite the pre-gens with some options added to the bottom. For example, "Ezren, at level 7, has 2000 GP unspent which he can use to purchase the following packages/options of magic items."

Regardless, I think Mike is on the right track with getting the rules for Module play more in line with both regular PFS play and Core Rules. I look forward to more perspectives as this discussion continues on.

Grand Lodge 4/5

I think that this poses a great chance for those that want to play beyond 12th level. I can understand that some don't like it. But as is you don't have to play your character after the Eyes of the Ten story arch. If you want to have your character stop at 13 go ahead. I like the proposed changes and think you should go on ahead with them.

The Exchange Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

Chris Mortika wrote:

I imagine that we're not thinking about the same things, Andrew. I've seen all three of the situations I've described: the witch who can't afford to get her familiar back, the 5th-level fighter with four permanent negative levels, and the permanently blinded character....

In all cases, this organized play environment is better if there is a way for players to repair PCs who are currently at a dead-end. It is always better to look for solutions rather...

When was it ever stated that one of the goals of module play was to turn it into some sort of band-aid for broken characters? You are using an unintended side-effect of the old policy into a reason to block a solid change. If broken characters are a problem, it's a separate issue which shouldn't get tangled up in this.

The Exchange Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

heretic wrote:

Hmm, I am not sure that we have to build in parachutes into mods because they are too hard for PFS characters. If you want rewards I buy the idea that you risk the life of a real PC.

What I don't want is a party of mismatched 7th level Pcs along with Ezren & co being the only option for Ebon Destroyers.

Isn't there supposed to be some judgment on the part of the players and GMs here?

If you have a mismatched group of 7th level PCs and pregens your options are to run From Sea to Shore or Fellnight Queen. I would suggest Sea to Shore because Fellnight is itself rather deadly in one part. They won't get the treasure they would get from Ebon Destroyers, but they will survive.

Your other option is to play regular scenarios until folks get to 8th or even 9th level to play Ebon Destroyer.

Liberty's Edge 5/5 5/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Alaska—Anchorage aka Dragnmoon

Dennis Baker wrote:
Isn't there supposed to be some judgment on the part of the players and GMs here?

Yes there is, but the problem is that allowing those that don't have the right level PCs to play Pre-gens is really not an option at all, might as well leave that part out and only let people play who have a PC of the Correct level.

I don't want to see that, that is why I am trying to convince Mike to allow people to instead play their own Built PC.

Grand Lodge 5/5

Dragnmoon wrote:

I did not look closely enough at the rules for Pre-gen play.

I think allowing people to make their Own PCs that don't have PCs of the the level of the Module would work in place of the pre-Gens.

All other rules stay the same with Pre-Gens.

If you are using a own leveled up character for module, calculate the cost of any consumables used and mark this cost on the Chronicle sheet to subtract from the total gained.

Though I am a little concerned if the totals add up to more then the Chronicle and and what the current Linked character have, pre-gen or not

Mike do you have a solution to that issue because it could happen?

If you play a pre-gen, you use what you have on the sheet. If you are using your own character, you use the resources available to that character. No you may not make your own, 2-11 level pregen to bring to the game. You may use the 4th or 7th level pregens available.

You don't get to borrow from what you might earn in the module. I never stated this was a possibility. Why would you think the totals would ever add up to more than the Chronicle? You can only used the link characters PP or gold to clear conditions such as death, disease, curse, etc....

Grand Lodge 5/5

Chris Mortika wrote:


As an observation: I'm fine with there being different rules for different situations. Mike B doesn't want two sets of rules, but he's proposing three sets:

One set for modules of level 2 - 11.

A different set of rules for modules level 12 and beyond.

And a third set of rules for "We Be Goblins".

I'd be fine with that -- I'm ignorant of the issues about play after retirement and don't claim to speak to that -- but it's inconsistent to also claim that you don't want different rules for different situations.

You are correct about three sets of rules and I will clarify even more.

One set of rules for Levels 2-11 only. Not two sets where old rules and new rules apply.

One set of rules for level 12 and up.

And, I will retire WBG from Society play.

Wait, that's still two sets. Here's an even better option so there truly is only one set of rules.

All rules apply for all modules, no matter the level. No pregens period. No playing outside of the level range,period. No slow progression, only normal, period. Play a module with only a legal PFS period. WBG gets retired because it falls outside the lines of the rules.

Sound good or does there need to be more clarification?

Shadow Lodge

Getting to this late, but my thoughts on this...

@ Doug Miles: played 2 modules, ran 1, planned on running 2 more in the near future

I really, really like the idea of play above level 12 and if that means modules, I'm fine with that. Modules present a more 'dungeon crawl' feeling that scenario and are nice for a change.

I saw a 7th level Ezren for the first time tonight. I wasn't impressed and he might have died had the player not been a veteran of 2nd and 3.5 Ed of the "world's oldest role playing game". We had a strong party so the wizard was never in danger, though his contribution as the highest level character in the party (we were 5 and 6) was mediocre. While I have no problem playing a sub-par character for fun and challenge, having my character's life tied to the performance of a pre-gen is not an option to me.

I agree with Dragnmoon and Chris on many of their points, especially having the ability to play a character at any level. This to me is the best benefit of including modules.

Though bottom line, since We Be Goblins! isn't getting changed, I'll still be running it as often as I can. Whatever you come up with Mike, I will use to run the rest of the modules. But I probably won't play in any more if these new changes go into effect.

Silver Crusade 5/5 5/5

thejeff wrote:


No more or less sense than the other character getting experience, prestige and access to gear from the module when you play a pregen.

If you really don't want to risk a real character or care about the rewards, I don't see any reason you can't just link a new PFS character to any module you play with pregens.

It's more about having fun playing the module than claiming rewards for it anyway.

I guess I mostly view pregen credit (and GM credit) as a way of creating a higher level starting character. No real disconnect since the starting level is pretty artificial anyway. It just lets me get around one thing in PFS that I don't like anyway (the insistance that all characters start at 1st level).

But as I said, its pretty much academic for me. I doubt that I'll ever play a higher level pregen unless there is absolutely no other alternative.

The alternative that I'd prefer would be to be allowed to level up an existing character and then play that character, with all the risks associated with that. But I'm sure that would be considered unacceptable by the same logic that makes starting with a higher level character unacceptable.

Shadow Lodge

Michael Brock wrote:
And, I will retire WBG from Society play.

Boo!!

Michael Brock wrote:


All rules apply for all modules, no matter the level. No pregens period. No playing outside of the level range,period. No slow progression, only normal, period. Play a module with only a legal PFS period. WBG gets retired because it falls outside the lines of the rules.

Honestly, this sounds more like what I thought modules were when I first heard they were sanctioned. Though, this will make them much more like scenarios thereby killing the idea of 'playable by any level'. Is this really the direction you want to go?

Grand Lodge 5/5

Nickademus42 wrote:

Honestly, this sounds more like what I thought modules were when I first heard they were sanctioned. Though, this will make them much more like scenarios thereby killing the idea of 'playable by any level'. Is this really the direction you want to go?

Making modules playable and credit to be received by any level character is a joke and never should have been instituted. Making modules have no real death penalty and no worries about consumable expenditure are both jokes and never should have been instituted.

That is going to change one way or another. That is the direction I want to go.

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

Michael Brock wrote:


You are correct about three sets of rules and I will clarify even more.

One set of rules for Levels 2-11 only. Not two sets where old rules and new rules apply.

One set of rules for level 12 and up.

And, I will retire WBG from Society play.

Wait, that's still two sets. Here's an even better option so there truly is only one set of rules.

All rules apply for all modules, no matter the level. No pregens period. No playing outside of the level range,period. No slow progression, only normal, period. Play a module with only a legal PFS period. WBG gets retired because it falls outside the lines of the rules.

Sound good or does there need to be more clarification?

Mike, in the original version of your message, you accused me of "playing word games". I'm honestly baffled by a tone I'm reading as anger on your part.

(From my perspective, you said you didn't want to do something, while proposing a rule that did just what you said you were trying to avoid. I wasn't trying to play games, but I wanted to point out that your proposal makes things more complicated, rather than less.)

I don't see as how eliminating pre-gens from modules entirely serves Pathfinder Society.
I don't see how eliminating slow progression serves the Society. Nor retiring the wackiness of "We Be Goblins".

Your last sentence looks like nothing so much as a threat, to make matters even worse.

If I'm misreading you, I'd be happy to be corrected. But I seem to be making you very angry. So I'm going to bow out.

Peace and success.

Grand Lodge 5/5

Nickademus42 wrote:
Michael Brock wrote:
And, I will retire WBG from Society play.

Boo!!

Yeah, I'm not crazy about retiring WBG either as I absolutely love it. But, if it is going to be twisted with me having a separate set of rules for it and not other modules, ad nauseum, I'll just bring all modules into line and retire it instead of dealing with the headache since it is its own thing.

Silver Crusade 5/5 5/5

Michael Brock wrote:


You are correct about three sets of rules and I will clarify even more.

One set of rules for Levels 2-11 only. Not two sets where old rules and new rules apply.

One set of rules for level 12 and up.

And, I will retire WBG from Society play.

Wait, that's still two sets. Here's an even better option so there truly is only one set of rules.

All rules apply for all modules, no matter the level. No pregens period. No playing outside of the level range,period. No slow progression, only normal, period. Play a module with only a legal PFS period. WBG gets retired because it falls outside the lines of the rules.

Sound good or does there need to be more clarification?

I'll start by echoing other people and say that I appreciate what you're trying to do and appreciate that you're asking for our opinions.

That said (and I may be misinterpreting you) but you're starting to sound quite defensive in this post and a few others.

You ASKED us for our opinions. Surely you really didn't expect us all to just agree with you?

Liberty's Edge 5/5 5/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Alaska—Anchorage aka Dragnmoon

Michael Brock wrote:


If you play a pre-gen, you use what you have on the sheet. If you are using your own character, you use the resources available to that character.

You don't get to borrow from what you might earn in the module. I never stated this was a possibility. Why would you think the totals would ever add up to more than the Chronicle? You can only used the link characters PP or gold to clear conditions such as death, disease, curse, etc....

Sorry, I thought this was What this line meant..

If you are using a pregenerated character, calculate the cost of any consumables used and mark this cost on the Chronicle sheet. Any remaining conditions are applied to the linked character when the Chronicle sheet is applied to that character.

That said to Answer your Questions..

Lets look at 7th Level Kyra, here Consumables equal to she has 2807.7 gp worth of items she can use, that is in the realm of capability of going over what a Linked PC has if you link it to a low Level PC. You need to keep that in account if you are going to link them.


Michael Brock wrote:
Chris Mortika wrote:


As an observation: I'm fine with there being different rules for different situations. Mike B doesn't want two sets of rules, but he's proposing three sets:

One set for modules of level 2 - 11.

A different set of rules for modules level 12 and beyond.

And a third set of rules for "We Be Goblins".

I'd be fine with that -- I'm ignorant of the issues about play after retirement and don't claim to speak to that -- but it's inconsistent to also claim that you don't want different rules for different situations.

You are correct about three sets of rules and I will clarify even more.

One set of rules for Levels 2-11 only. Not two sets where old rules and new rules apply.

One set of rules for level 12 and up.

And, I will retire WBG from Society play.

Wait, that's still two sets. Here's an even better option so there truly is only one set of rules.

All rules apply for all modules, no matter the level. No pregens period. No playing outside of the level range,period. No slow progression, only normal, period. Play a module with only a legal PFS period. WBG gets retired because it falls outside the lines of the rules.

Sound good or does there need to be more clarification?

I'm sure I'm reading this wrong because it's the internets and all, but it reads kind of 'shut up-py' as written. Chris was making sense to me with some of the points he was making.

Grand Lodge 5/5

Chris Mortika wrote:


Mike, in the original version of your message, you accused me of "playing word games". I'm honestly baffled by a tone I'm reading as anger on your part.

(From my perspective, you said you didn't want to do something, while proposing a rule that did just what you said you were trying to avoid. I wasn't trying to play games, but I wanted to point out that your proposal makes things more complicated, rather than less.)

I don't see as how eliminating pre-gens from modules entirely serves Pathfinder Society.
I don't see how eliminating slow progression serves the Society. Nor retiring the wackiness of "We Be Goblins".

Your last sentence looks like nothing so much as a threat, to make matters even worse.

If I'm misreading you, I'd be happy to be corrected. But I seem to be making you very angry. So I'm going to bow out.

Peace and success.

Upon rereading it myself, it did come across as angry or wrong so I edited a minute later because I didn't want to give that perception. My apologies.

I am making no threats. I am offering up other solutions. Again, if I didn't want input, I would never have brought it here. I would just make the change and leave it at that. What bothers me is people are proposing the modules stay the same or we make them even more lenient than the current rules. The larger percentage of the playerbase wishes to have modules have more meaning and not seem worthless to play, with the only reason to play them to play catch up with character levels and the like.

I'm trying to find a delicate balance here and I appreciate the input thus far. Again, I apologize for any "tone" that came off here. There was none meant, I am not angry or mad. Just frustrated that the balance is very difficult to find. That, and my wife was finally able to come visit me for the first time in 3 months this weekend and is leaving tomorrow after a great three days and that sucks also.

Liberty's Edge 5/5 5/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Alaska—Anchorage aka Dragnmoon

Michael Brock wrote:


Upon rereading it myself, it did come across as angry or wrong so I edited a minute later because I didn't want to give that perception. My apologies.

I am making no threats. I am offering up other solutions.

I think you were Channeling Josh.. ;)

Liberty's Edge 5/5 5/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Alaska—Anchorage aka Dragnmoon

Michael Brock wrote:

Making modules playable and credit to be received by any level character is a joke and never should have been instituted. Making modules have no real death penalty and no worries about consumable expenditure are both jokes and never should have been instituted.

That is going to change one way or another. That is the direction I want to go.

Now I understand where this is coming from, and This is where my problem lies, since this is what I enjoyed the Modules mostly for and I felt was the Main reason Modules where added to give this option into PFS play where it did not exist.

If you feel this way you might as well remove the Pre-gens all the way since that is not an option anyway.

4/5 5/5

Part of me likes the changes here, and another part of me believes that it means that I won't be able to run most of modules as I have been.

Let me start by saying that I've run three modules with PFS rules (Godsmouth Heresy and Cult of the Ebon Destroyers) and I have played in three. I tend to run home games and not very often have completely open online games.

When they were originally introduced, I've liked using modules for the PFS rules for a few reasons.

1. Bring parties who have several levels of difference between themselves together. Just one player could have joined in late and is always a level or two behind the rest of the group. This is somewhat solved by having a slow advancement track for the higher level characters, but it does consume a significant number of scenarios in doing so and just increases the chance of random death which just would be a sort of double-whammy of now not having a character to play with the group and having now played in most of the scenarios available that would have let you advance another of your characters.

2. Combine groups of the more prolific players with the newer or less active players. A few of my players have played through nearly every low level scenario there is. There have been times where I have been running lower level scenarios and I've just run out of scenarios where everyone can play for credit. This could also be solved with the less active players using the slow track as the more active player just replays scenarios for fun or just sits out (because replaying three or more scenarios isn't something most people look forward to), but I'm not sure that is my favored solution.

This is actually why I first used a module. One player had played all the scenarios in a tier and I just needed that one boost to get them past into the next tier of adventures. Now this is with my mindset of a very small number of scenarios in existence, now there are plenty (for the foreseeable future in my groups) to go around. Right now it would be pretty easy to use the proposed changes with this goal in mind.

3. This module is sounds awesome and I want to work it into my PFS games for a few weeks. There have been a few modules that sounded so awesome that I looked forward to getting myself going an running them in place of PFS scenarios. That is actually one of the biggest reasons I ran Cult of the Ebon Destroyers rather than other modules because I thought it was cool.

Now, that really is only applicable for when the group all has characters of the level required by the scenario or really wants to play a pregen (while I prefer a pregen to not being able to play, characters of my own creation feel a bit more satisfying to play with). That is annoying, but mostly workable.

However, once one gets into the 9th level and higher modules (of which there are a few I was looking forward to running prior to this), it becomes a lot more sad to me. For these one does't have the option of running a pregen and has to sit out for the game to be PFS sanctioned.(*?) Now, here I always still have the option to play or run in a module outside PFS like they were and are designed for.** I was excited to see The Ruby Phoenix Tournament given it's apparent promotion of PFS play as part of this latest arc, but at this point, using this set of PFS rules, my regular groups wouldn't be playing it for at least two years at which point the Year of the Ruby Phoenix arc will have long since passed by.

I'm still excited to run the Ruby Phoenix Tournament for my group, but with this rules change, it would have to be not using PFS rules or rewards. When it comes down to it, this section is the only one that I really can't see workarounds for that don't involve the group breaking off from PFS.

-

I do like however the retirement rule changes though. The transition from a cap for PFS characters to extending the leveling system out. Even if PFS scenarios of that level are never created, I like that a lot more than freezing PFS characters at that level while they accrue more and more wealth from adventures.

-

Really, I will be able to live with the rules. The point I brought up in three will be my only lasting pain I believe. I want to run/play these modules soon for/with my group and right now I see the options of having to wait years to run them in PFS, or run it now and kind of ruin the mystery of the module if they need to play in it PFS to continue to advance their character (and possibly get them barred from tables for their knowledge).

-

*As I wrote this, I wanted to ask a question about sanctioned modules with unsanctioned players. I'm pretty certain what the answer has to realistically be but I wanted to ask anyway. If I want to run "The Harrowing" do all players have to be legal Pathfinder Society characters or can four players use PFS characters (and get the chronicle at the end of the scenario) while the fifth makes a 8th level character with level appropriate gear (and possibly options that aren't available for PFS like magic item crafting feats) for no credit?

**I also would like to know that if it is intended or expected that players be barred from playing and receiving credit for PFS sanctioned modules if they have already played it once, but outside PFS for no credit.

Edit: Even if I'm not entirely happy with the solution, I thank you for your work and effort into making improvements into this system. One of my most irritating moments running a module was when one player really just broke the feel as they announced that they were going to be free and lose with their wand charges because it wasn't going to carry over past the end. Most of my players knowingly didn't press that option (aloud or without the declaration) so I'm glad that is handled now.

Finding the balance to make this work is hard and making fit perfectly may be impossible because modules just aren't designed for PFS in mind. This is hard and I realize that what I want may just not be in the best interest of PFS OP. Thank you again.

Shadow Lodge

Dragnmoon wrote:
Michael Brock wrote:

Making modules playable and credit to be received by any level character is a joke and never should have been instituted. Making modules have no real death penalty and no worries about consumable expenditure are both jokes and never should have been instituted.

That is going to change one way or another. That is the direction I want to go.

Now I understand where this is coming from, and This is where my problem lies, since this is what I enjoyed the Modules mostly for and I felt was the Main reason Modules where added to give this option into PFS play where it did not exist.

If you feel this way you might as well remove the Pre-gens all the way since that is not an option anyway.

I agree, knowing your feelings on this does give more insight to the direction you want to go. I'd say go for it then. I'm fine with modules only being playable at-level.

Michael Brock wrote:
Yeah, I'm not crazy about retiring WBG either as I absolutely love it. But, if it is going to be twisted with me having a separate set of rules for it and not other modules, ad nauseum, I'll just bring all modules into line and retire it instead of dealing with the headache since it is its own thing.

I understand. Maybe there is a way to make a generic chronicle for WBG similar to the novel and holiday chronicles.

Grand Lodge

There was a misunderstanding from way back - forget who posted.

When tracking consumables, you don't count the items you find during a module (just like scenarios). Those items can be used up during the module and don't cost the PC anything. Then at the end, you have access to buy anything that is listed on the Chronicle sheet - based on what you found during the module, even if you used it during the module.

What you have to track are the items from your PC or pregen that you start the module with. You can purchase resources (where available) from the existing gold of the PC or the pregen and write it on the Chronicle sheets under Items Bought. Scenarios don't let you buy anything on "credit" modules don't either.

The one bit that could be seen as an exception to this is when clearing conditions (including death) at the end of a module. You may use any GP/PP earned during the scenario, any existing GP/PP the PC has and any GP/PP from the linked PC when "fixing" a pregen. Also, GP (but not PP) from other players may be used to bring a character back to life, but any GP raised this way are voluntary donations only.

Silver Crusade 5/5 5/5

Dragnmoon wrote:
Michael Brock wrote:

Making modules playable and credit to be received by any level character is a joke and never should have been instituted. Making modules have no real death penalty and no worries about consumable expenditure are both jokes and never should have been instituted.

That is going to change one way or another. That is the direction I want to go.

Now I understand where this is coming from, and This is where my problem lies, since this is what I enjoyed the Modules mostly for and I felt was the Main reason Modules where added to give this option into PFS play where it did not exist.

If you feel this way you might as well remove the Pre-gens all the way since that is not an option anyway.

One of the things that I like about modules is that they remove the time pressure (our weekly game is at a store with a hard closing time and we have 3.5 to 4 hours per session).

Maybe the solution is something a little bizarre. You can play a pregen and get fame and experience but that must be applied to that pregen. You now have a brand new character, a modified pregen. Its still Kyra, but its now level 9 with non standard equipment, feats, etc.

This lets people try out higher level characters or play with their friends who have higher level characters. It DOES let you essentially start with characters who are higher than first but at least you "pay" for that privilege by being very restricted in the characters that you can do this with.

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