Nobody Expects an Intro Set!

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Pathfinder Intro Game

Hyrum.

Wow, go off line for a couple of days and you miss things. Glad to hear this is finally a go.

[squeezes eyes hard shut]
Please make the box magenta...please make the box magenta...

A box?!? Perfect! I would encourage you to use the Moldvay Basic Set box as the model.

*Human/Elf/Dwarf/Halfling (gnomes and the half breeds may be too much)
*Fighter/Wizard/Cleric/Thief
*Every rule and option you need to fully play levels 1-3
*DICE
*character sheets
*An amazing dungeon delve (think Whispering Cairn) with tons of GM help

*minis - no
*map - maybe

Sounds like an interesting idea! You could call back feeling for the origins of Roleplaying Games just like the kind TSR made!

You know, games like Sniper!, Bullwinkle and Rocky Role Playing Party Game or the Doctor Who RPG!

The first question is really what audience do you want to reach with this Intro box. Do you want to bring new players into roleplaying or just bring roleplayers to the Pathfinder system? The second part is easily done with quick-start rules. Just dumb the rules down.

Now with art! (Credit coming soon!)

I'm all for an intro set; I'd more enthusiastically buy a board game that operated as an intro set. Think: Castle Ravenloft.

Paper mini's by Ashton(N'wah) would be a nice way to keep production costs down some. :)

Now with art! (Credit coming soon!)

I like!

A box?!? Perfect! I would encourage you to use the Moldvay Basic Set box as the model.

*Human/Elf/Dwarf/Halfling (gnomes and the half breeds may be too much)
*Fighter/Wizard/Cleric/Thief
*Every rule and option you need to fully play levels 1-3
*DICE
*character sheets
*An amazing dungeon delve (think Whispering Cairn) with tons of GM help

*minis - no
*map - maybe

I'd actually go human, elf, dwarf, gnome, since I associate gnomes more with Pathfinder than I do halflings. Halfling seems pretty generic. Gnomes in Pathfinder are awesome.

Of course I don't really like elves, so I'd ditch them and put in half-orc instead (for the brooding, misunderstood archtype), but I do appreciate that elves are a mainstay of the genre so they'd probably be in a starter set.

I'd suggest going level 1-6, and including a couple shorter scaling adventures (IE like the Pathfinder Society scenarios) that can be played in either order.

For goodness sake clear the schedule of other stuff in the rules line, please, the year this comes. It needs to be the sole focus of attention. This is a flagship product.

Oh, and goblins - as I said when James Jacobs asked about it in the chat the other night, it needs pyromaniac Golarion goblins.

The Strength check was so high the back of the door caught on fire!

Real Pathfinder rules

Fighter, Wizard, Rogue, Cleric

Covers levels 1-6

Real Pathfinder rules

Fighter, Wizard, Rogue, Cleric

Covers levels 1-6

Human, elf, dwarf, halfling.

Real Pathfinder rules

Fighter, Wizard, Rogue, Cleric

Covers levels 1-6

I agree with this, I would go Human, elf,dwarf and gnome as well.

I'd include a Halfling for the advertising potential:

Seen The Hobbit? Now BE The Hobbit!

(Assumes it ever gets made)

Absolutely real rules. I've taught D&D to noobies without any dumbing down, you just need what to roll and what to add REAL BIG. I think this will mostly be oriented towards new players in general...for folks experienced with other editions of the game they can just pick up the core rulebook.

Please include goblins. please please please! And Goblin songs!!!

This will now be the Christmas gift I give every child I know.

LOVE IT AND WANT IT!

Real Pathfinder rules

Fighter, Wizard, Rogue, Cleric

Covers levels 1-6

Since no one expected an Intro Set, it really should include an Inquisitor.

Please: Useful from 1st-3rd level; REAL rules; cleric, fighter, rogue, wizard; all core races; "basic" equipment aka Standard Adventuring Kit; dungeon crawl with a map (flip-mat?); dice (big purple d20? ;)); and GOBLINS!
Some WANTS: useful from 1st to 6th level; REAL rules in a 7x5" book; paper minis; village/urban adventure with a map; new and improved Campaign Workbook (maybe 7x5 like the rule book) box to be made of plastic molded with compartments for everything to be secure; and a Paizo-purple mechanical pencil. hmmmmm...yeah...that may take the price point a bit too high. :D

Ryan Stoughton wrote:

Real Pathfinder rules

Fighter, Wizard, Rogue, Cleric

Covers levels 1-6

Since no one expected an Intro Set, it really should include an Inquisitor.

ba dum tish

Here's my two-cents...

If you can create a boxed set in the $30 range with those things and still meet your price point, I think it'll become a tremendously successful product for you.

--Neil

A box?!? Perfect! I would encourage you to use the Moldvay Basic Set box as the model.

*Human/Elf/Dwarf/Halfling (gnomes and the half breeds may be too much)
*Fighter/Wizard/Cleric/Thief
*Every rule and option you need to fully play levels 1-3
*DICE
*character sheets
*An amazing dungeon delve (think Whispering Cairn) with tons of GM help

*minis - no
*map - maybe

+1 especially for having dice included.

DitheringFool wrote:

A box?!? Perfect! I would encourage you to use the Moldvay Basic Set box as the model.

*Human/Elf/Dwarf/Halfling (gnomes and the half breeds may be too much)
*Fighter/Wizard/Cleric/Thief
*Every rule and option you need to fully play levels 1-3
*DICE
*character sheets
*An amazing dungeon delve (think Whispering Cairn) with tons of GM help

*minis - no
*map - maybe

+1 especially for having dice included.

+2

Here's my two-cents...

** spoiler omitted **...

I really like these suggestions (up a few posts) - although I would make sure there are enough monsters available for a creative GM to make a great run through 3rd level.

Limiting available spells and skills is great. The tokens can be skipped to save some money for more monsters and the dice. I definitely think that serviceable dice are way more important than fancy tokens.

I like the idea. I recently bought the Dragon Age RPG that Green Ronin put out, and I STRONGLY urge you to take a look at what they've done there to draw influence for it.

What I'd specifically like to see in the player packet would be:

-Races: Human, Elf, Dwarf, Halfling
-Classes: Fighter, Wizard, Cleric Rogue, levels 1-5 only
-Full combat rules
-Full skill rules
-Limited feat options
-Limited equipment (basic adventuring kit, smaller weapon list)
-Limited spell choices
-Simple magic weapons only

GM book should contain:
-Stripped down GMing basics, taking away unnecessary (for low level anyway) things like in-depth CR explanation, custom magic items, and wealth by level.
-Select advice from the GMG
-A diverse bestiary with all of the iconic low CR badies, such as goblins, kobolds and orcs. It should also include a few tougher monsters like a low CR dragon, to be used at the end of the budding GMs adventure.
-Speaking of the bestiary, the art really needs to be eye popping to get new players excited.

Ryan Stoughton wrote:

Real Pathfinder rules

Fighter, Wizard, Rogue, Cleric

Covers levels 1-6

Since no one expected an Intro Set, it really should include an Inquisitor.

+1 With limited options, but it fits right there.

For the record, one of my old friends just opened a games shop. He has over stocked (IMO) on 4e ... just for one reason : they have a "basic" set.

Steal the entry market from them ... and you own the world.

I think all the ideas pertaining to box contents are great :) Here's a couple ideas related to books and rules, based on my own experience.

1- Put spells in their own little booklet. Casters will sing your praises for years to come, and so will GMs. Although an option, I don't think multiple copies of a Spells booklet are necessary. It's easy for players to share a book, with the main problems occurring when players and the GM both need to look in the same book at the same time.

2- Don't include feats at all. I can hear the outcry now "but the characters won't be able to do anything!" Au contraire mon ami. They will be able to do plenty. I would say that skills are optional for inclusion, but they form a nicely limited number of pretty general abilities that will get new players used to the idea of how to use the mechanic (without simply learning to rely on it.) Feats should be mentioned as being a part of the full-blown Pathfinder game, with the statement that players will be adding them to their character if they move into that game.

3- Respect your own efforts to their fullest. Don't sell the intro game short as being either inferior or impossible to use after a certain point is reached. Although it might boost sales of the big Pathfinder book slightly if you did, I think that not only can the big book stand on its own merits, but that new players will be eager to dig down into Paizo's library of adventures to support the intro game itself.

Best of luck with this cool direction! :)

A box?!?

So the "box is too expensive" issue has been resolved?

It sounds like a great idea. Just make easy to help teach the game. It is think that one disadvantages of pathfinder. I beleive a beginners set will gain a better following. Just keep up the great work.

DitheringFool wrote:

A box?!?

So the "box is too expensive" issue has been resolved?

Depends on what's in the box!

A box?!? Perfect! I would encourage you to use the Moldvay Basic Set box as the model.

I hope not, personally. There's a new generation of gamers out there to attract, none of whom have any nostalgic attraction to B/X. Also, I can already forecast a "Pathfinder versus Essentials" flamewar as folks argue over whose box is closest to original D&D. It's already bad enough folks requesting Paizo to drop its bread-and-butter adventures and start aping WotC's supp focus: where's the pathfinder intro set? where are the pathfinder epic rules? where's psionics for pathfinder? where's UA? where's the pathfinder Complete series? etc.

Stand out, Paizo! ^_^

joela wrote:

DitheringFool wrote:

A box?!?

So the "box is too expensive" issue has been resolved?

Depends on what's in the box!

True. How about dice, some figures, battlemat, and thumbdrive with the rules? ^_^

Never written here before, but as I'm handling a lot of starter's stuff myself right now, I think I can contribute one thing or another. What's following is a wild brainstorming without a claim to be the only eligible option. =)

A really big problem I see: The good about Pathfinder is its level of perfection and detail. If this starter is designed very simple, it won't catch the Pathfinder feeling. But if the starter booklet has 120 pages (as many people are proposing with "real rules" and "all options"), it's nothing like a real starter. Of course, ready-made characters and similar funnies wouldn't be the right way either as this IS in fact the starter for a detailed game!
My approach would be spezialisation. Pathfinder is SO incredibly detailed, it doesn't even need "the four base classes". Three classes with some options are enough, especially if you add a subtle hint like "Well... in the big product there are ELEVEN of these, yes, eleven, you heard right!" Newbies will be intrigued and curious at once. If it weren't for rogue-suckers not wanting to play anything else, I would even go with two classes. ;)
Which classes? Option 1, standard: Warrior, Rogue, Wizard. It's Ok, I guess... But then, isn't Pathfinder something special? Isn't it cooler than D&D Essentials? Think about the Sorcerer (yeah, instant casting and dragon claws are waaay cooler). I suppose it doesn't fit the "tradition", but this product is not for some old guys lamenting about the downfall of D&D1... it's for new players!
Races are not easy, really. I think I would use Humans, Elves and Dwarfs, taking out very special stuff like stonecunning.
Same for the rules: Take out maneuvers (a starter's game works fine without them), all but two or three conditions, complicated moving actions and stuff like that.

Make it cheap. Really cheap. 20$ for D&D Essentials aren't bad, but... 15$ or even 12$ (!!) would be incredible. Include some dice, even if they are cheap material. I don't know about markers, maps and stuff as I'm biased (we're not using them). Perhaps a double-sided mini-map and a few quite generic markers would be a good idea for visualisation. Perhaps not. In the end, markers can't beat WoW. ;) So yeah, let them out.

An idea: Hone the character building down to mainly simple choice chains. Like...
Which class?
*** Fighter? Here are your Attribute, and Skill values - don't forget the race bonus. (Oh, but in the Pathfinder main game you can allocate your own stats!) Next: Choose a huge axe, two swords or big sword and shield (consequences for attacks, damage and AC are explained right away). Now choose two: Power Attack, Toughness, Weapon Focus (or something like that).
You get thick armor and a torch.
Next level: Choose talent Cleave or Improved Initiative. Get 7 HP, 2 skill ranks. (and so on.)
*** Rouge? Choose one rouge talent of two, choose one talent of two, you get the picture.
*** Wizard? You get the following representative choice of spells, perhaps a choice or two. These are your class abilities, choose one of those two metamagic talents.
*** Sorcerer (if that's cooler)? Choose Arcane or Dragon Bloodline. get Powers. Get cantrips, choose two spells of the following four.
Done? Cool. Calculate your Saves. What's your character like? And so on.

Just some wild ideas, of course.
Main content of this post: Be sure about what you want to do - and who is going to buy it. If it's starters, well, make it for starters. If it's roleplayers who want to take a look, 120 pages might be Ok.

Oh God, I want it!

As for the tokens, I'd suggest something along the lines of those found in the Arkham Horror (for investigators) and WHFRP 3e (for classes and monsters): punch-out cardboard figures - drawn in the style of N'wah or Crystal Frazier would be THE AWESOME - to fit into clear plastic slotted bases, for PCs and a bunch of creatures.
If you can add another sheet or two of punch-out cardboard counters for spell effects and status/conditions, even better.

The basic flip-mat is a must, and another one with a grassy side (for outdoors) and a stone slab tiled floor (for dungeons, fortresses, etc.) should be a fine add-on to the package.

A set of dice with the purple d20.

Rules for levels 1-6 in sturdy booklets. A digest of the Gamemastery Guide for new DMs is a must.

THANK YOU!

Also, I can already forecast a "Pathfinder versus Essentials" flamewar as folks argue over whose box is closest to original D&D.

I think Mythmere Games and Brave Halfling Publishing have that sewn up with Sword & Wizardry Whitebox.

Okay. I posted in the other thread about this. But here I'll present what I'd expect, and be content, from an intro set for under $20:

• 2 booklets. 1st for making your character. It presents 3 to 5 classes and 3 to 5 races. Standard rules for skills. Trimmed feat list, so there is enough variation to chose from, but not the whole list. Equipment packages, instead of the whole list. And the first couple levels of spells, a few to chose from, not the whole list. Perhaps a couple defense, offense and utility per level.
  Book 2 would be an short adventure that would take one or two sessions.
  
• At the very least, some counters to track characters and enemies.
  
• Also, at least, a battle grid of some sort.
  
• And a set of dice.
  

Whatever is decided, I know the final product will be great. Paizo is awesome like that.

Some ideas:

- The same game as Pathfinder just a slimmer version of it. It should have exactly the same mechanics, so an intro set PC could migrate directly to the regular game.

- An original level appropriate adventure with matching battle mats (no generic "woods" mats but mats that match the adventure) and player handouts.

- A piece of nicely bound and produced short fiction that is directly tied to the adventure. This piece of fiction should showcase the RULES OF THE GAME in it's narrative in ways that the reader can see things like combat, spell casting, and saving throws occurring in the text of the narrative. This piece of fiction should NOT "gloss over the game details" to benefit the story like most RPG fiction does.

- 4 dry erase character sheets.

- A discount code or coupon for a Paizo.com purchase of the core rulebook.

- Some kind of poster map.

- A Pathfinder comic book.

DitheringFool wrote:

A box?!? Perfect! I would encourage you to use the Moldvay Basic Set box as the model.

I hope not, personally. There's a new generation of gamers out there to attract, none of whom have any nostalgic attraction to B/X. Also, I can already forecast a "Pathfinder versus Essentials" flamewar as folks argue over whose box is closest to original D&D. It's already bad enough folks requesting Paizo to drop its bread-and-butter adventures and start aping WotC's supp focus: where's the pathfinder intro set? where are the pathfinder epic rules? where's psionics for pathfinder? where's UA? where's the pathfinder Complete series? etc.

Stand out, Paizo! ^_^

I think they can do both. As a matter of fact, I demand that they do everything!!!!

I want a BASIC game, not a limited rules set. Like I have said elsewhere people have proven 3E/Pathfinder rules can be simplified AND kept compatible enough to allow people to "upgrade" to the full rules set if and when they decide they want "more".

Plus you can provide easy to print, meaning simple and in basic black and white, conversions of your currently printed full color and full rules adventures, so that they can by those, and have the PDF show people how to go about using the basic and the advanced by converting between them. Not that there should be much in the way of converting it, just choose what you want to keep and delete the rest. When you go to using the full rules you add everything back on.

So use this to be a SIMPLE and BASIC rules set that familiarizes people with all the basic rules and rule concepts, and use the PDF's to allow them to use your current line of adventures AND teach them how they will be able to upgrade with ease whenever they wish too.

So do not do a limited set of rules, do a FULL and BASIC set of complete rules.

I like the idea. I recently bought the Dragon Age RPG that Green Ronin put out, and I STRONGLY urge you to take a look at what they've done there to draw influence for it.

What I'd specifically like to see in the player packet would be:

-Races: Human, Elf, Dwarf, Halfling
-Classes: Fighter, Wizard, Cleric Rogue, levels 1-5 only
-Full combat rules
-Full skill rules
-Limited feat options
-Limited equipment (basic adventuring kit, smaller weapon list)
-Limited spell choices
-Simple magic weapons only

GM book should contain:
-Stripped down GMing basics, taking away unnecessary (for low level anyway) things like in-depth CR explanation, custom magic items, and wealth by level.
-Select advice from the GMG
-A diverse bestiary with all of the iconic low CR badies, such as goblins, kobolds and orcs. It should also include a few tougher monsters like a low CR dragon, to be used at the end of the budding GMs adventure.
-Speaking of the bestiary, the art really needs to be eye popping to get new players excited.

I like best what w0nkothesane suggests above if the purpose of the intro set is to get new players. We have to realize that peter jackson's LOTR films have surprisingly been now in the psyche of most non-gaming people and the suggestion of w0nkothesane closely starts from that mindset (the human,elf,dwarf, halfling party). In addition, to w0nkothesane, I also would like to see what NSpicer suggested, the introductory adventure (this is a must for fledging GM),the double-sided flip-mat (one for wilderness & one for dungeon), tokens, & dice.

DitheringFool wrote:

A box?!? Perfect! I would encourage you to use the Moldvay Basic Set box as the model.

I hope not, personally. There's a new generation of gamers out there to attract, none of whom have any nostalgic attraction to B/X. Also, I can already forecast a "Pathfinder versus Essentials" flamewar as folks argue over whose box is closest to original D&D. It's already bad enough folks requesting Paizo to drop its bread-and-butter adventures and start aping WotC's supp focus: where's the pathfinder intro set? where are the pathfinder epic rules? where's psionics for pathfinder? where's UA? where's the pathfinder Complete series? etc.

Stand out, Paizo! ^_^

The key word is "model" - I was referring to whats in the box: self contained rules, a killer adventure, and dice!

I would suggest a 'basic play' character sheet that fits on a single page or even half a page. In my experience, good character sheets are absolutely necessary for introducing new players to the game. A simpler character sheet might also help determine what should and should not be included in an intro game. If it doesn't fit on the 'intro sheet', it probably shouldn't be included in the 'intro game'.

I'd recommend including a random dungeon generator.

I still fondly remember the random dungeon tables in the original DMG. A random dungeon generator gives a new GM something to do between running the intro adventure and buying/designing a new one. And in a pinch, it could even be used for solo play.

I really hope they don't heed the suggestions to strip down race choices to human/elf/dwarf/halfling.

Yeah, LOTR and "tradition", but orcs have punched their way into our popculture via Warcraft and other avenues.

And gnomes?

Kids love anime.

Putting those racial options on the bench serves no purpose but to reduce maximum appeal to a wider range of potential gamers.

The human/elf/dwarf/halfling-only thing is something the game has, or should have, grown past by this point. Going that route my score points with people fond of OD&D(and not overly fond of the other racial options for whatever reason), but that doesn't exactly do much to reach out to today's potential young gamers.

With their videogames and fantasy novels and loud music and rollerskates, kids aren't as bound by LotR themes as many might believe.

Also, no audio CD's plz. Anyone who heard one that came out of the 2E era starter box will know what I'm talking about. ;)

An Intro Box Set sounds like a great idea Hyrum! My suggestion for the adventure to be included in the box would be a quick mini adventure with everything included like you did in the One Night Stand series, just set it in the Pathfinder world.

I think the intro box offers great potenial. I personally would suggest using well established and already well loved element as the basis of any such box.

So I would suggest a sandpoint based mini campaign, be included in the box, one that involves goblins. There is already a lot of material on sandpoint, and the awesome of the goblins is well proven.

I think that it would be wise to include a some what stream lined version of the system, between levels 1 and 5, that uses the slow XP progression. Provide plenty of advice, explaining the concept of a balanced party with advice.

Lots and lots of play aids. Dice, fold out poster maps, paper minis, spell cards, condition cards and character sheets, include a data CD with said play aids as PDFs(dice excluded for obvious reasons).

Beyond the box, support the intro set with additional material. I would suggest the the entire years module line be given over to low level, slow exp progression adventures, including a mini campaign in the style of tomb of the ever flame, ect.

So I would suggest a sandpoint based mini campaign, be included in the box, one that involves goblins.

YES

For the Players...
... I would like to see pregenerated characters with a chapter that actually explain the reasonings behind certain choices and how stats are calculated. Just listing AC 18 for the fighter isnt enough, you need to explain how its made up (base 10 plus 5 from chainmail armor plus 2 from dex and plus 1 from dodge feat).
... Provide a full ruleset with emphasis on levels 1 to 3 (or 5?) list the spells they can cast but drop the mathmatics completely - for example tell them that burning hands does 1d4 points of fire damage at level 1, 2d4 at level 2 and 3d4 at level 3 etc.
... Exclude multiclassing rules, prestige classes and anything that adds planning to the character including feat chains.
... A step by step guide on how to build a character from scratch including when to choose your race, class, feats, skills, etc.
... Guide to record keeping during play - how to track hit points, spell usage, manage resources during combat, how to make notes on plot hooks, recording experience, treasure and kill history.

For the Game Master
... More help for the GM with an emphasis on quick play out of the box. repeat the use of a previous adventure (such as GameMastery Module D0: Hollow's Last Hope updated to PFRPG rules) but supply step by step guidance on how to plan you sessions to run the adventure.
... A guide to tools, maps, and miniatures and their use at the gaming table. perhaps provide a B&W paper version of the gamemastery combat tracker with a sheet of paper "magnets" that could be photocopied. Or maybe some printable condition/treasure/NPC cards.
... Drop useful information about campaign building. keep the information relevant and immediate. teach the GM how to track information on the players; the decision to collect character sheets at the end of the night or wether to simply make notes and leave the players with the characters.
... Plenty of information about finding players, mention local hobby stores, online websites, and the pathfinder society. Expand on this to actually hosting a game, space needed, snacks required, and how to create an enjoyable atmosphere. You could even discuss play by mail/e-mail or hosting a game online with existing software like RPTools, Battlegrounds, or Fantasy Grounds II (although i havent looked into the Pathfinder support these provide I recall most being rules friendly)

In the Box (in addition to the stuff above)
... Character sheets
... GM and Player note sheets
... Dice
... Paizo Voucher
... Battle Map
... Counters (be they used for characters, monsters, loot, coinage or whatever)
... Memory Stick loaded with the PDFs of everything included in the box

Final Thoughts
The contents of the box needs to also appeal to existing GMs as a way to draw in new players. If you can target the box at a single Player (that is, new players each purchase a copy of the intro box that provides them with the tools to play in an existing game group or the tools to create their own group.) while keeping the price low enough for existing GMs to purchase 2 or 3 of them to provide to new players I think this box set will be a huge hit. Keep the price competetive with the Core rulebook so that this becomes the doorway into Pathfinder and will encourage those who enjoy it to seek out the Core Rulebook themselves.