La Cipolla's page

I think it's really unfortunate that the community has only the Beta-Race-Creation-Rules for 4 months more. A second round or even a little document on the final changes would be very healthy for the process going on in between now and the publication of the Advanced Race Guide. I think myriads of races created with working rules swarming around the web couldn't hurt the sales either.

Apart from this, I'm incredibly intrigued, especially by the openess in changing the Beta-Rules where they lacked according to general opinion.

@Evil Lincoln: Thanks for the direction! (These forums are simply TOO huge...) I will stay here nevertheless, for simplicity's sake.

One additional comment, fuel by the thread over there: Gods forbid there will be another edition (or organisation, or whatever), I dearly hope the Paizonians use all the time such a book(-line) needs, and even a bit more. After all, it would be a shame if a second edition was as "raw" as the first one has been, just different.
I also hope, some essential contents from the 3 Hardcovers (UM,UC,APG) will find their way into the core, while some of the fundamentally more complicated (and less useful) concepts could be outsourced. Magic-Item-Creation, I'm looking at you. There are also a lot of talents and spells which might not be as essential as a core book should be.

I think the discussion is very intriguing, especially since possible consequences do not have to be the "obvious" ones like Beginner Box 2. The opinions out there could be of a huge importance when it comes to a second edition of Pathfinder, or even to a general "way" the game might develop in the future.

My interpretation of what lies between the lines of this thread (and similar ones):
1.) The light and straight-forward "style" is wildly appreciated. Of course, the fact that this is indeed a BEGINNER Box with only 5 levels helps a lot, but I'm sure quite a percentage of the design decisions could partly be imported into the core (with appropriate changes, of course). I'm thinking, for example, about the item pictures. That 4-line-magic-descriptions and "do bla, do bla" as character progression will not work forever should be clear.
2.) Pathfinder is NOT "only" a reworked D&D anymore. There is, of course, a legacy, but PF has become much more of a game in its own right. Consequently, thoughts that might have been taboo until now could be considered again, AS LONG as the spirit of the game is preserved. I'm talking about notions like (boo-hoo) changing, replacing or simply leaving out some classes, races, spells, items, rules - or even character levels - when it comes to the Core Rules (just as an example).

The more I think about it, the more I get the impression that the Beginner Box and the Core Rules work together quite well - I think a "BB2" would be very... special (not to say redundant); let the community work on this one.
BUT, and I think that's shockingly obvious: The Beginner Box is now "state of the art" when it comes to Pathfinder design - and the core should adapt!
If I read the BB and follow it up with the core, I should not suffer a culture shock, I should think "Ah, it's the same, only more complex and with more options". This ties together with the two points before. A serious paradigm shift in book organisation and design would perhaps be most important, by far more important than rule changes - Pathfinder suffers from its heritage as well as from the fear of being not recognized as the legacy of 3.5. The Beginner Box, I claim, does not have these restrictions, as it was an "easy-going gimmick" (for the hardcore fans) from the beginning. In fact, BB feels a bit more like 4e design-wise, in a good way. And perhaps, the core should overcome it's heavy background too. The BB has opened a door, cunningly.

If it comes up, my understanding of "design" is a mixture of game design, graphics and organisation of text and rules.

So many really different opinions, incredible. And these are only the voices of people who are already into the game. :D
I suppose in the end it will come down to "be absolutely clear about who ought to buy this box" and "do what you think is best, give a s%~$ about the PF veteran".

So, instead of doing a rules-lite box (AKA weaksauce box), do a stand-alone game on the themes of PFRPG, using the core PFRPG mechanic. Put the branding/PI all over there. "Pathfinder: McGuffin Quest" "Golarion" "Sand Point", etc. Stick in a catalogue and an organised play flier.

To make the game useful to those who continue on to the larger RPG (and to attract the interest of those who already do), make the components reusable, not the rules. Flipmats, chase cards, cloisonné status markers, metallic copper/silver/gold pieces. Y'know: shiny, shiny schwag.

Sounds good too, yeah.

Never written here before, but as I'm handling a lot of starter's stuff myself right now, I think I can contribute one thing or another. What's following is a wild brainstorming without a claim to be the only eligible option. =)

A really big problem I see: The good about Pathfinder is its level of perfection and detail. If this starter is designed very simple, it won't catch the Pathfinder feeling. But if the starter booklet has 120 pages (as many people are proposing with "real rules" and "all options"), it's nothing like a real starter. Of course, ready-made characters and similar funnies wouldn't be the right way either as this IS in fact the starter for a detailed game!
My approach would be spezialisation. Pathfinder is SO incredibly detailed, it doesn't even need "the four base classes". Three classes with some options are enough, especially if you add a subtle hint like "Well... in the big product there are ELEVEN of these, yes, eleven, you heard right!" Newbies will be intrigued and curious at once. If it weren't for rogue-suckers not wanting to play anything else, I would even go with two classes. ;)
Which classes? Option 1, standard: Warrior, Rogue, Wizard. It's Ok, I guess... But then, isn't Pathfinder something special? Isn't it cooler than D&D Essentials? Think about the Sorcerer (yeah, instant casting and dragon claws are waaay cooler). I suppose it doesn't fit the "tradition", but this product is not for some old guys lamenting about the downfall of D&D1... it's for new players!
Races are not easy, really. I think I would use Humans, Elves and Dwarfs, taking out very special stuff like stonecunning.
Same for the rules: Take out maneuvers (a starter's game works fine without them), all but two or three conditions, complicated moving actions and stuff like that.

Make it cheap. Really cheap. 20$ for D&D Essentials aren't bad, but... 15$ or even 12$ (!!) would be incredible. Include some dice, even if they are cheap material. I don't know about markers, maps and stuff as I'm biased (we're not using them). Perhaps a double-sided mini-map and a few quite generic markers would be a good idea for visualisation. Perhaps not. In the end, markers can't beat WoW. ;) So yeah, let them out.

An idea: Hone the character building down to mainly simple choice chains. Like...
Which class?
*** Fighter? Here are your Attribute, and Skill values - don't forget the race bonus. (Oh, but in the Pathfinder main game you can allocate your own stats!) Next: Choose a huge axe, two swords or big sword and shield (consequences for attacks, damage and AC are explained right away). Now choose two: Power Attack, Toughness, Weapon Focus (or something like that).
You get thick armor and a torch.
Next level: Choose talent Cleave or Improved Initiative. Get 7 HP, 2 skill ranks. (and so on.)
*** Rouge? Choose one rouge talent of two, choose one talent of two, you get the picture.
*** Wizard? You get the following representative choice of spells, perhaps a choice or two. These are your class abilities, choose one of those two metamagic talents.
*** Sorcerer (if that's cooler)? Choose Arcane or Dragon Bloodline. get Powers. Get cantrips, choose two spells of the following four.
Done? Cool. Calculate your Saves. What's your character like? And so on.

Just some wild ideas, of course.
Main content of this post: Be sure about what you want to do - and who is going to buy it. If it's starters, well, make it for starters. If it's roleplayers who want to take a look, 120 pages might be Ok.