Really confused about npcs in 2e

Some of the books will describe an npc as a "(race) (some nount here) (level number) (e.g one book has a "Hobgoblin racketeer 6). Where are we supposed to find stats for these? I know the game master guide has a bunch of sample npcs but I can't find anything about a "racketeer" (to name just one)

The description of the NPC is just that: a description. It can help guide a GM if they want to build out the NPC, but doesn't refer to any actual class or abilities.

You could also use it as a quick indicator about what DC to use for things that are in their wheelhouse. If you want to shake down a 6th level racketeer, that sounds like a 6th level task so set the DC at 22.

...but maybe trying to convince them to do "legitimate business" would increase that DC by +2 or +5...

An NPC without a stat block is intended to be a casual encounter where the exact number don't matter. The dictionary defines racketeer as "a person who engages in dishonest and fraudulent business dealings." PF1 used to give these NPCs class names, but PF2 has NPCs as classless creatures. For example, maybe the racketeer is pretending to be an ordinary shop clerk while really serving as the front for a criminal enterprise.

However, the player characters often want more interaction with an NPC than the module intended, such as Coercing the racketeer for information about the criminal enterprise. Then the GM improvises the NPC's numbers for that session (see Staffan Johansson's suggestion above) and afterwards creates a stat block before the next session.

The NPC Gallery in the Gamemastery Guide is a good resource for that. Checking the Criminals section of the gallery, I see Grave Robber creature 1, Bandit creature 2, Ruffian creature 2, Charlatan creature 3, Burglar creature 4, Fence creature 5, and Assassin creature 8. A Fence is a kind of dishonest business dealer, so I would start with that, convert it to hobgoblin, and level it up to 6th level. If the racketeer is a rough type, maybe add a Ruffian ability such as Brutal Beating during the level-up. If the racketeer is more a deceptive type, maybe add a Charlatan ability such as Occult Spontaneous Spells during the level-up, instead.

This is right. A lot of times you won't need combat stats per se, but you would need stats for some sort of social encounter. Deception and such. Which can be looked up in the GMG. And if it comes to combat later, you can grab a stat block when you're ready.
Personally, I am hoping for a PF2 NPC Codex. But the GMG is a great start and very handy.

Some of the books will describe an npc as a "(race) (some nount here) (level number) (e.g one book has a "Hobgoblin racketeer 6). Where are we supposed to find stats for these? I know the game master guide has a bunch of sample npcs but I can't find anything about a "racketeer" (to name just one)

This format is only used for NPC characters the story doesn't expect the characters to fight.

Sometimes relevant skill bonuses are specified, otherwise you are simply given a level to indicate the NPCs capabilities.

For example the level 6 DC is 22. You could use that for any and all checks made against that NPC, whether we're talking about Diplomacy or some other skill, or even use it for save DCs and AC: a passive DC of 22 would indicate an active score of +12, so if the NPC needs to make a save, just roll d20+12.

The "racketeer" part is just descriptive. To me, that's enough to describe a thuggish lout (as opposed to a gentle villager or snobbish burgher) - it gives the general idea of some kind of criminal that isn't above threats of physical violence, since racketeering is basically the word you'd use when "mob member" would feel too unfantasylike. :)

Yes, it really is that simple. Good luck with your game!

Although I sometimes make NPCs from scratch using Pathbuilder and the PC generation rules, the standard procedure is to use the monster creation guidelines. More and more, I find myself using the list of NPCs from AoN and just changing a few bits here and there.

https://2e.aonprd.com/NPCs.aspx?Letter=All

Captain Zapp's explanation is a good one. Only bother with full stat blocks if you expect the NPC to be important in combat.

the list of NPCs from AoN

Just a note: this list originated in the Gamemastery Guide Chapter 5 NPC Gallery.

I'm hoping they're making a list somewhere of all the NPCs they've peppered throughout the various AP installments and everywhere else, and will put out an NPC codex with those, with some advice on scaling them upwards or downwards (like, at 10th level, the racketeer also gets the Ruffian's Brutal Beating ability). Except that unlike the PF1 NPC codex, they'd be classless.

Honestly I'd also like something along the lines of the Simplified NPC rules that we got in Pathfinder Unchained, with a heavy sampling of all the new abilities they've been coming up with for NPCs. Have a similar list of hazard abilities, and I'd be a happy camper.

I think that they just lack a stat block, maybe we can get a NPC gallery/archive book in the future like with 1e but if I remember correctly the GM book has a lot of ready to use NPC with Stat blocks and all, I'd like to give them a look for build inspiration.

slapping together an NPC is super easy. It's literally fill in the numbers then think of a fun ability they should have. That's it. Takes about 10 minutes, maybe 20 if it's supposed to be a boss or something.

The GMG tables also make leveling up or down an NPC/Monster super easy too. Need a CR 10 skeleton, just move the numbers down the column. SUPER easy. Other than a second on say, this is how you design a poison or something like that, I don't expect to see a list of "NPC/Monster abilities" since it should be unique for each one. Also, there is already a list like that. It's called the Bestiary.

The GMG tables also make leveling up or down an NPC/Monster super easy too. Need a CR 10 skeleton, just move the numbers down the column. SUPER easy. Other than a second on say, this is how you design a poison or something like that, I don't expect to see a list of "NPC/Monster abilities" since it should be unique for each one. Also, there is already a list like that. It's called the Bestiary.

Partially yes, partially no. The designers in fact have a spreadsheet they use in office that adjusts monsters up and down like this. The problem is that high level monsters are more complex and have more abilities than lower level ones, so a level -1 Balor isn't quite a level -1 challenge, even if all the numbers are lined up correctly. Similarly, a level 20 skeleton isn't really a level 20 challenge, because of the limitations of the base creature you used to stat it.

You can always add or remove abilities, but at then you might as well just start from scratch, as you're no longer just adjusting the numbers.

As far as the list of abilities, I'd certainly rather have just a 5-10 page list instead of flipping through several hundred pages across 4 books, before even counting PFS scenarios which also have custom NPC abilities. That's how I use the ability appendixes in the bestiaries.

Edit: edited to be less of a jerk

PF2.easytool has every NPC from adventures I've looked for. Foundry also has them in an easier to parcel bestiary. You can pretty easily limit the list to humanoids, for example.

Paizo is absolutely not providing an easy to use master list of NPCs. I know, because I have looked for it.

Adjusting NPCs is also not easy (past the +1 -1 thing). The advice basically amounts to "create a monster of the required level".

The exact words of the GMG:
"If you need to change the NPC’s level beyond that, use the values from the tables in Building Creatures in Chapter 2, and add or remove special abilities as necessary to suit the NPC’s new level."

That pretty much amounts to no help at all compared to creating a creature from scratch. And all those monster creation tables? I find it much easier and much more helpful and much more creative to look at Bestiary creatures that already are of the right level. The tables are dry and boring; just the skeleton. The bestiary entries take that skeleton and dress it in creativity.

We still don't have any rules and guidelines that comes close to just looking at the Bestiary and drawing conclusions from that.

Then there are "theme templates" - stuff like:

Members of the Bellflower Network fight against slavery where they can, liberating slaves and helping those in need.
All Creatures: Add the chaotic trait. Remove the evil and lawful traits.
1st Level or Higher: Add Acrobatics to the creature’s skills, with a bonus 2 higher when used to Escape.
4th Level or Higher: Increase the creature’s Speed by 5 feet.
7th Level or Higher: Add Deception to the creature’s skills. It gains the Unfettered Halfling ancestry feat, even if it isn’t a halfling.
12th Level or Higher: The creature can cast freedom of movement once per day as an innate divine spell.
17th Level or Higher: The creature gains the Foil Senses and Slippery Secrets skill feats.

To me this is far too cluttered. That amount of detail just isn't what is needed, and the piece-meal approach almost requires a computer to be done quickly. Plus - the above just doesn't cut it. It basically fiddles about with the small stuff that's just not going to make a difference.

If Paizo has a "creature creation bible" where they discuss what types of creatures get what abilities at what level, they sure aren't sharing it with us.

If you haven’t seen Mark and Linda create a monster with Twitch chat, you should really check out a Create a Monster Workshop on ArcaneMark. Excellent examples of taking a concept and using tables and abilities to realize that concept.

If Paizo has a "creature creation bible" where they discuss what types of creatures get what abilities at what level, they sure aren't sharing it with us.

Not quite what you mean here, but look at the difference between the Monster creation rules that were written in Bestiary 1 in PF1, and the Simplified Monster Rules we got in Pathfinder Unchained. And also the summon monster tables that were printed in Starfinder's Alien Archive 1.

They absolutely have done this kind of thing before, more than once. I wouldn't expect it this early of course, because that would probably do more harm than good this early in the game's life, but I'm talking about putting something out eventually. Not next year.

Edit: Here, I'll link them:

Bestiary Monster Creation Rules

Pathfinder Unchained Simple Monster Creation

Starfinder Creating Monsters and NPCs

An example Summoning Graft, also from Alien Archive 1

PF2.easytool has every NPC from adventures I've looked for. Foundry also has them in an easier to parcel bestiary. You can pretty easily limit the list to humanoids, for example.

PF easy tools is great for when I want to throw a pre-written NPC at a party, yes, and they'll only get better as more stuff is added. But for generating a list of abilities to add to NPCs, its a bit of a mess to wade through. In some ways even worse than a bestiary, because you have to go through so many individual webpages.

I may eventually use them to extract the information I'm looking for, but I don't want to have to do it myself; I'd like to pay someone a modest fee to collate all this for me. Preferably in a book dedicated to exactly this kind of project, like an NPC or Creature codex.

If you haven’t seen Mark and Linda create a monster with Twitch chat, you should really check out a Create a Monster Workshop on ArcaneMark. Excellent examples of taking a concept and using tables and abilities to realize that concept.

That's true! If you are reading this post around the time I'm posting it (within a week or so), it's still not too late to see Linda constantly giggling at the name "Minotauriarity" as we create a minotaur mastermind rogue level 12 NPC.

Which is great if you want to watch it, and soon, but not if you want to read useful information, posted some where on this forum, always.

I'm on the outside looking in here, haven't actually played 2e, but this seems... incredibly lazy on Paizo's part.

I'm on the outside looking in here, haven't actually played 2e, but this seems... incredibly lazy on Paizo's part.

Could you be a little more specific? What seems lazy? Building NPCs top-down, staring from what you need them to be, instead of bottom up, starting from ancestry,class, and other building blocks?

I don't see the laziness there. It's a much more convenient and useful approach from a GM perspective than the kind of bottom up building we did in 1E.

Or not having more pre-written NPCs sitting in a pile to grab, instead of directing you to the rules for building your own? Or not having more codified lists of "use these abilities around this level"? Or the original post's NPCs showing up in APs that don't have full statblocks when there's no reason to expect that they would be worth wasting page space on?

I'm on the outside looking in here, haven't actually played 2e, but this seems... incredibly lazy on Paizo's part.

The biggest part of it is something that's been done in the past in numerous iterations of D&D and PF already. When you read through a module and saw "Clem Lestneihm (male human Expert 3)" but no stats, it was a way to say "Hey, you should know roughly where this character's stats should lie, but you really shouldn't need them. It saved on word count, page space, and generally the GM's time. PF2 doesn't have NPC classes, however, so gives the NPC a title like "Clam Lastnaihm (male human clam fisherman 3)" which allows for the same solution for GMs who need DCs or stats for whatever reason, but also guideposts the GM in their decision making.

Which is great if you want to watch it, and soon, but not if you want to read useful information, posted some where on this forum, always.

If you watch, you’ll see that they mainly only use what is in the Gamemastery Guide and create new abilities as they see fit, entirely based on what they are building. They don’t have a secret design bible they are not releasing... the Gamemastery Guide guidelines *are* what they use, with inspiration taken from other monsters in the bestiaries if it fit.

For legitimately 20+ years for NPCs that were not supposed to play a really major role in the story, I would not bother to write down their full stat block (or even generate it)- I would note down relevant statistics to their role in the story. This was never a problem, since I knew that if the PCs insisted on having the NPC do something they're not there for I could just let the PCs win (e.g. if they really wanted to beat up the blacksmith, or the messenger, they could... sure) or if an NPC suddenly became important for whatever reason I could just fake it until I can revisit them between sessions.

I'm just glad that PF2 is the game that acknowledges that I can just write down how good the blacksmith is good at blacksmithing and stop there.

Which is great if you want to watch it, and soon, but not if you want to read useful information, posted some where on this forum, always.

Gentle reminder that this is on twitch, which doesn’t save videos after x amount of time. So the video is no longer available.

Releasing on YouTube would solve this problem.

The other thing I'll point out about Arcane Mark is I'm pretty sure it isn't part of Mark and Linda's job. It is just a thing they do (presumably for fun, because it seems hard to monetize) on the side. So there's not really any obligation for them to transcribe it into forum posts.

Paizo has has some issues with over using their official streams for stuff that could have come in the forum occasionally, but this is not that.

You're right Captain Morgan. It is a just for fun thing we do on the side, with topics voted by viewers (talking about barbarians tonight, it's pretty random, we also had a Hades episode and a singing episode, etc). But it's true we are waaaay behind on youtube. We may need to make a patreon goal or something to help us catch up on the youtube backlog. That said, a bit of a diversion on the NPC topic.

Folks here are correct that we just use the GMG rules. It's enough, with the viewers voting, to build an NPC top down from concept to execution.

The Patreon to put things on YouTube seems like a good solution.

When I've (rarely) been in a position to watch the twitch streams they've been informative (and in the case of the AP reviews extremely detailed and thoughtful content that would be extremely valuable to DMs).

It also seems like they tackle thorny content (e.g. NPC creation using monster rules) that probably couldn't easily go up in an article format.

If I'm right then you'd probably get patreon sponsors who'd pay for them to get someone to copy over the twitch to youtube (this seems super common, streamers who have youtube content were thanking their youtube editors over the end of year holidays).

If I'm wrong then lack of patreon indicated that this would be the answer.