Nice. I like the fix ups to the other senses, although I am a little iffy about the 5 foot rule of Scent.
You cannot spend a free action to initiate Stealth, but if you spend a free action while under the effects of Stealth, you must make a new Stealth check to continue its effects. You can always spend a swift action to stay immobile and make a Stealth check.
I think you meant to say:
You cannot spend a free action to initiate Stealth, but if you spend a free action while under the effects of Stealth, you may make a new Stealth check to continue its effects. You can always spend a swift action to stay immobile and make a Stealth check.
Otherwise, the two parts to that sentence have nothing to do with each other - just because you can't spend a free action to initiate stealth has nothing to do with the requirement to roll to maintain it because you took a free action.
Personally, I'd modify it to say:
You cannot spend a free action to initiate Stealth, but if you take an action while under the effects of Stealth, you may spend a free action to make a new Stealth check to continue its effects. You can always spend a swift action to stay immobile and make a Stealth check.
Whoops, one issue:
If you're in the middle of a combat, and take the swift action to hide...does that work?
If are hidden and you take a free action, and you want to stay hidden, you must make a Stealth check in order to do so.
Stealth checks are not free actions, they are part of the action you take...including free actions if you want to stay hidden while taking that free action.
What you cannot do is spend a free action to initiate Stealth. If you are not hidden, you cannot spend a free action and make a Stealth check to become hidden.
Whoops, one issue:
If you're in the middle of a combat, and take the swift action to hide...does that work?
Well, you must have cover (except soft cover) or concealment from the creatures you are trying to hide from. You can stay immobile by spending a swift action and make a hide check as that action.
It's a little strange, I know, but we wanted to have a higher action cost that a free action to make a Stealth check, and swift seemed to be the best option.
If are hidden and you take a free action, and you want to stay hidden, you must make a Stealth check in order to do so.
Stealth checks are not free actions, they are part of the action you take...including free actions if you want to stay hidden while taking that free action.
What you cannot do is spend a free action to initiate Stealth. If you are not hidden, you cannot spend a free action and make a Stealth check to become hidden.
So if I'm good enough at Stealth, I can speak (a free action allowed out of turn), and remain hidden?
Or even Speak then start to be hidden?
It might be interesting to note how Hide in Plain Sight interacts with these rules. Otherwise I like it.
I noticed one thing. Previously it used to be that if attacked by an invisible you lost your DEX bonus and got an additional -2 penalty to AC. It seems this penalty is now shifted to a hidden attacker as a +2 bonus to attack, which makes sense, as it is a feature of the attacker not of the defender; there's no "oblivious" condition. :) Good.
If are hidden and you take a free action, and you want to stay hidden, you must make a Stealth check in order to do so.
Stealth checks are not free actions, they are part of the action you take...including free actions if you want to stay hidden while taking that free action.
What you cannot do is spend a free action to initiate Stealth. If you are not hidden, you cannot spend a free action and make a Stealth check to become hidden.
So if I'm good enough at Stealth, I can speak (a free action allowed out of turn), and remain hidden?
Or even Speak then start to be hidden?
You can speak and attempt to stay hidden (assuming you are whispering or doing something to stay hidden...since that's the smart thing to do), but because you cannot initiate a Stealth with a free action. So you cannot speak and start to be hidden.
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I like.
Now...if you can just work on that "facing" part we discussed... ;-)
If are hidden and you take a free action, and you want to stay hidden, you must make a Stealth check in order to do so.
Stealth checks are not free actions, they are part of the action you take...including free actions if you want to stay hidden while taking that free action.
What you cannot do is spend a free action to initiate Stealth. If you are not hidden, you cannot spend a free action and make a Stealth check to become hidden.
I see what you're going for now. I'd word it this way, then:
If you take a free action while already under the effects of Stealth, you must make a new Stealth check to continue its effects. You may not initiate Stealth as part of a free action.
You can speak and attempt to stay hidden (assuming you are whispering or doing something to stay hidden...since that's the smart thing to do), but because you cannot initiate a Stealth with a free action. So you cannot speak and start to be hidden.If are hidden and you take a free action, and you want to stay hidden, you must make a Stealth check in order to do so.
Stealth checks are not free actions, they are part of the action you take...including free actions if you want to stay hidden while taking that free action.
What you cannot do is spend a free action to initiate Stealth. If you are not hidden, you cannot spend a free action and make a Stealth check to become hidden.
So if I'm good enough at Stealth, I can speak (a free action allowed out of turn), and remain hidden?
Or even Speak then start to be hidden?
I think Bobson understands my confusion.
I thought you couldn't start stealth as a free action but if you took another free action, you could tag along Stealth checks.
I agree with Bobson's wording.
You're moving 30', stealthily. You roll a natural one on your check, and due to that don't beat a few enemies. You spend a swift action to stop where you are, and try to be stealthy.
Does that work?
My interpretation is that you would be noticed by those who saw you, but not necessarily by those who didn't see you fail the check.
Wait... can I cast a spell and make a Stealth Check to remain hidden?
If not, can someone point out for me where it says I can't?
By this, I mean a spell which is not also an attack (like buffs, or heals), cast targeting myself, an object, or an ally.
EDIT: Cheapy's above post certainly makes it seem like there should be some sort of limit on Stealth checks per round.
It might be interesting to note how Hide in Plain Sight interacts with these rules. Otherwise I like it.
I noticed one thing. Previously it used to be that if attacked by an invisible you lost your DEX bonus and got an additional -2 penalty to AC. It seems this penalty is now shifted to a hidden attacker as a +2 bonus to attack, which makes sense, as it is a feature of the attacker not of the defender; there's no "oblivious" condition. :) Good.
Since hide in plain sight interacts with what environments that you can use Stealth, giving exceptions to the usual need for either cover or concealment in particular situations, these rules should work perfectly fine with those exceptions. That's the goal anyhow.
The +2 to attack rolls was part of the original invisible condition in the Pathfinder Core Rulebook. I am pretty sure that was even the case in 3.5.
Wait... can I cast a spell and make a Stealth Check to remain hidden?
If not, can someone point out for me where it says I can't?
By this, I mean a spell which is not also an attack (like buffs, or heals), cast targeting myself, an object, or an ally.
You can, but you must make a new Stealth check when you do.
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Wait... can I cast a spell and make a Stealth Check to remain hidden?
If not, can someone point out for me where it says I can't?
By this, I mean a spell which is not also an attack (like buffs, or heals), cast targeting myself, an object, or an ally.
Go Unnoticed just became really good :)
Was it the intent that spells that don't "come from" a caster would still break stealth?
Such as Call Lightning.
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"Creating a Diversion to Hide: You can use Bluff to allow you to use Stealth. If you do not have cover or concealment, as a swift action, you can attempt a Bluff check opposed by the Sense Motive of opponents that can see you. If you are successful, you are considered to have concealment from those creatures (but you do not gain the percent miss chance from concealment) until the end of your next action, you make an attack (as defined in the Attacking while Hidden section, above), or the end of your turn, whichever happens first. Action: Usually making a Stealth check is not an action. Using Stealth is part of the action you are taking."
So if I read this right after slicing a dog I can in tell the angry guard "Hey look it's that ninja!" and if I beat his sense motive I can then run like a scared halfling and hide?
Oh - one request. Can we please get a definition of what it means to "pinpoint" a creature? Does that mean you know exactly what space, but still have normal total concealment miss chance? Or that you know exactly where they are and can hit them as if they weren't hidden/invisible?
Go Unnoticed just became really good :)Wait... can I cast a spell and make a Stealth Check to remain hidden?
If not, can someone point out for me where it says I can't?
By this, I mean a spell which is not also an attack (like buffs, or heals), cast targeting myself, an object, or an ally.
I liked stealth on casters before. Now? Like this? Its near required.
And a good thing!
Was it the intent that spells that don't "come from" a caster would still break stealth?
Such as Call Lightning.
That particular spell take a full-round action to cast, so you typically can't do it with a stealth check, unless you have greater invisibility or some other way to stay hidden while using full-round action. After that, the action it takes to concentrate on a spell and call down further bolts is a gray area, but I would say you can still attempt to stay hidden in the normal way.
That's something we will have to talk about internally, but it also affects the invisibility spell, so that's probably an FAQ rather than an update issue.
Oh - one request. Can we please get a definition of what it means to "pinpoint" a creature? Does that mean you know exactly what space, but still have normal total concealment miss chance? Or that you know exactly where they are and can hit them as if they weren't hidden/invisible?
The first, not the second. You can find that on page 563 of the Core Rulebook.
"Creating a Diversion to Hide: You can use Bluff to allow you to use Stealth. If you do not have cover or concealment, as a swift action, you can attempt a Bluff check opposed by the Sense Motive of opponents that can see you. If you are successful, you are considered to have concealment from those creatures (but you do not gain the percent miss chance from concealment) until the end of your next action, you make an attack (as defined in the Attacking while Hidden section, above), or the end of your turn, whichever happens first. Action: Usually making a Stealth check is not an action. Using Stealth is part of the action you are taking."
So if I read this right after slicing a dog I can in tell the angry guard "Hey look it's that ninja!" and if I beat his sense motive I can then run like a scared halfling and hide?
That is correct, my goblin friend.
Was it the intent that spells that don't "come from" a caster would still break stealth?
Such as Call Lightning.
That particular spell take a full-round action to cast, so you typically can't do it with a stealth check, unless you have greater invisibility or some other way to stay hidden while using full-round action. After that, the action it takes to concentrate on a spell and call down further bolts is a gray area, but I would say you can still attempt to stay hidden in the normal way.
That's something we will have to talk about internally, but it also affects the invisibility spell, so that's probably an FAQ rather than an update issue.
Oh, forgot about the full-round action.
My main concern is the spells that don't come from you, such as Earth Call.
I believe Create Pit is indirect harm, so you could remain stealthed...
Was it the intent that spells that don't "come from" a caster would still break stealth?
Such as Call Lightning.
That particular spell take a full-round action to cast, so you typically can't do it with a stealth check, unless you have greater invisibility or some other way to stay hidden while using full-round action. After that, the action it takes to concentrate on a spell and call down further bolts is a gray area, but I would say you can still attempt to stay hidden in the normal way.
That's something we will have to talk about internally, but it also affects the invisibility spell, so that's probably an FAQ rather than an update issue.
Oh, forgot about the full-round action.
My main concern is the spells that don't come from you, such as Earth Call.
I believe Create Pit is indirect harm, so you could remain stealthed...
Anything you can cast while under the effects of the invisibility spell and still stay invisible, you can cast while you are hidden and still possibly stay hidden.
I like.
** spoiler omitted **
You're a funny guy, Neil. :)
Oh - one request. Can we please get a definition of what it means to "pinpoint" a creature? Does that mean you know exactly what space, but still have normal total concealment miss chance? Or that you know exactly where they are and can hit them as if they weren't hidden/invisible?The first, not the second. You can find that on page 563 of the Core Rulebook.
Ah-ha! Thanks. We've always played it that way, but I never had a rule quote for it before.
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It might be interesting to note how Hide in Plain Sight interacts with these rules. Otherwise I like it.
I noticed one thing. Previously it used to be that if attacked by an invisible you lost your DEX bonus and got an additional -2 penalty to AC. It seems this penalty is now shifted to a hidden attacker as a +2 bonus to attack, which makes sense, as it is a feature of the attacker not of the defender; there's no "oblivious" condition. :) Good.
Perhaps there should be an oblivious condition, or would that be stunned or helpless already? Or Flat-Footed?
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You still need to make clear how someone/thing with Scent can detect a scent (DC? Automatic?)and how and if Stealth affects that.
If it is within range, it is automatic. Stealth doesn't help you when going up against a creature that has scent. That's the long and short of it.
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Wait... can I cast a spell and make a Stealth Check to remain hidden?
If not, can someone point out for me where it says I can't?
By this, I mean a spell which is not also an attack (like buffs, or heals), cast targeting myself, an object, or an ally.
EDIT: Cheapy's above post certainly makes it seem like there should be some sort of limit on Stealth checks per round.
Personally, I would consider this to be akin to sniping and use the -20 penalty accordingly.
Anything you can cast while under the effects of the invisibility spell and still stay invisible, you can cast while you are hidden and still possibly stay hidden.
So the Stealthed/Invisible Rogue and/or Spellchucker with the Wand or Spells of Summon Monster/Planar Ally/Infernal Lawyer can still remain hidden while making someone else have a very bad day.
*Monty Burns* Eeeexcellent.
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How about an explicit interaction with flanking?
When GMing, I've always ruled that you don't provide flank if you're invisible or stealthed because the flanking rules are predicated on the target being "threatened."
If I'm totally unaware of something's existence, it isn't going to be very threatening to me.
A creature threatens under certain circumstances (see page 180 of the Core Rulebook). It may not seem threatening to you, but that's not how threatened squares work in the rules. An invisible or hidden creature still threatens, because it could and might make and attack in a creature within those squares.
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You still need to make clear how someone/thing with Scent can detect a scent (DC? Automatic?)and how and if Stealth affects that.If it is within range, it is automatic. Stealth doesn't help you when going up against a creature that has scent. That's the long and short of it.
*Wishes this was not a playtest thread* That is how I run it now, and you have no clue how much headache I get over that!
So if I stealthily cast haste (to buff my party) I remain stealthy.
(Not using Invisibility, but the stealth skill)
But when I stealthily cast Ice storm, my stealthiness fails.
Unless my ice storm was just dropping shards of ice/hail and those unfortunate sods just happened to get in the way, and I remain stealthed. (As they were indirectly harmed).
Or I could use that as a distraction "OMG an Ice storm!" to restart my stealthing?
Interesting.. gives me something to try out.
Also.. since I can't full round action for stealth... can my rogue no longer stealthily Coup-de-grace someone? Since it is both an attack, and a full round action???? Or that my CdG goes off, and I am no longer stealthy since I attacked.
Thank you for this. Y’all are awesome.
A suggestion: Some notes on sound. For example what if any bonuses does the Silence spell grant to stealth. It won’t have an effect on line of sight and such, but becomes very important if you are ‘sneaking’ instead of ‘hiding’.
Terrific improvement. A few notes:
Does not the section on actions belong under an Action: -headed paragraph as is the style for the other skills? Even if stealth does not take an action, such a section might be useful so that people can quickly identify that.
I still feel like you're "burying the lead" as far as stealth granting a hidden state. It seems more important to know what it does, then how much it costs. I'd like to see the information presented in that order; "stealth grants hidden" first, action costs second, or in their own section.
The language "you may always spend a swift action" still troubles me. It may be the placement, since it comes before the description of limitations on initiating stealth. That goes back to point 1, above.
Lastly, I still see the phrase "use Stealth" but I'm glad to see you've adopted the proper English verb "hide" in the paragraph title at least! Don't think the clarity would suffer if you were to use "hide" in all cases, at least contrasting it with other potential uses of the stealth skill (sniping comes to mind?). Nitpicking semantics again. You can count on me to do that.
That's it, really! I'm very happy to see the hidden condition. It's laudable that you adopted so many of the suggestions. This version is suitable to playtest in my ongoing campaign. Will report back!
(PS- You do realize that September 26th is only 6 days and not two weeks, right?)
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Creating a Diversion to Hide: You can use Bluff to allow you to use Stealth. If you do not have cover or concealment, as a swift action, you can attempt a Bluff check opposed by the Sense Motive of opponents that can see you. If you are successful, you are considered to have concealment from those creatures (but you do not gain the percent miss chance from concealment) until the end of your next action, you make an attack (as defined in the Attacking while Hidden section, above), or the end of your turn, whichever happens first. Action: Usually making a Stealth check is not an action. Using Stealth is part of the action you are taking.
Okay, this seems to imply that a stealth check is involved somewhere in here, but I don't seem WHEN you actually get to make it. The way I read it is, if you have a good enough bluff, you don't need stealth, because you can bluff yourself invisible, which then seems like it makes stealth redundant for classes that has them both, as you can use bluff for all the normal bluff uses, AND for stealthing.
Am I misunderstanding this?
(PS- You do realize that September 26th is only 6 days and not two weeks, right?)
I do. This was originally planned to go up last week, but the minis announcement bumped it to this week. I asked for this to be changed, but it wasn't. The playtest lasts until the 3rd, which means that the 3rd is the last day to get comments on this message board.
Creating a Diversion to Hide: You can use Bluff to allow you to use Stealth. If you do not have cover or concealment, as a swift action, you can attempt a Bluff check opposed by the Sense Motive of opponents that can see you. If you are successful, you are considered to have concealment from those creatures (but you do not gain the percent miss chance from concealment) until the end of your next action, you make an attack (as defined in the Attacking while Hidden section, above), or the end of your turn, whichever happens first. Action: Usually making a Stealth check is not an action. Using Stealth is part of the action you are taking.Okay, this seems to imply that a stealth check is involved somewhere in here, but I don't seem WHEN you actually get to make it. The way I read it is, if you have a good enough bluff, you don't need stealth, because you can bluff yourself invisible, which then seems like it makes stealth redundant for classes that has them both, as you can use bluff for all the normal bluff uses, AND for stealthing.
Am I misunderstanding this?
You make the Stealth check as part of your next action, since you have concealment until the end of your next action (or you make an attack, or until the end of your turn, whichever happens first). Usually, you will use it to move away, but there are other ways to use it as well.
So if I understand correctly, anyone can, while standing in plain sight, attempt to feint as a swift action and, if successful, follow it up with a stealth check to deny opponents their Dex bonus to AC (thereby allowing the feinting-hider to sneak attack if they have that class ability). And this can be done every round even if they remain right in front of everyone? Would it work with only a standard action attack or even a full-attack (for the first attack only of course)?
If so, it'd seem that the bluff-stealth battlefield shuffle will be the latest dance craze to sweep the roguish population.
Terrific improvement. A few notes:
Does not the section on actions belong under an Action: -headed paragraph as is the style for the other skills? Even if stealth does not take an action, such a section might be useful so that people can quickly identify that.
Ayep, I'm getting this and the date thing fixed.
One problem I have is that now a stealthy can't hide and draw & drink a potion, or switch out gear in preparation for ambush.
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You still need to make clear how someone/thing with Scent can detect a scent (DC? Automatic?)and how and if Stealth affects that.If it is within range, it is automatic. Stealth doesn't help you when going up against a creature that has scent. That's the long and short of it.
It helps quite a bit... you just need to carry a reach weapon.
So if I understand correctly, anyone can, while standing in plain sight, attempt to feint as a swift action and, if successful, follow it up with a stealth check to deny opponents their Dex bonus to AC (thereby allowing the feinting-hider to sneak attack if they have that class ability). And this can be done every round even if they remain right in front of everyone? Would it work with only a standard action attack or even a full-attack (for the first attack only of course)?
If so, it'd seem that the bluff-stealth battlefield shuffle will be the latest dance craze to sweep the roguish population.
You would have to do this, or something like this, and you must have hide in plain sight or something similar that allows you to use Stealth in "full view" of creatures.
Take a swift action to feint, make an attack, take a 5-foot step and make a Stealth check as part of that move, and then make another attack.
You need to succeed both checks to pull it off.
One problem I have is that now a stealthy can't hide and draw & drink a potion, or switch out gear in preparation for ambush.
You can do all of those things while and attempt to remain hidden.
You make the Stealth check as part of your next action, since you have concealment until the end of your next action (or you make an attack, or until the end of your turn, whichever happens first). Usually, you will use it to move away, but there are other ways to use it as well.
Hmmm, here's a question for you....
Normally, the rogue would have had to get behind cover in order for that brief period of concealment after a bluff to be useful. However there is this line in the stealth rules: "If during your last action you were hidden to a creature, you are still considered hidden when you make the first attack of that new action". So, doesn't that mean a rogue could bluff, stealth, and then sneak attack all in the same round even without an real cover or concealment around?
I don't consider this overpowered because it is basically a harder version of the Improved Feint feat, but I wanted to make sure that my interpretation was correct and that this was intended in the rules.
You make the Stealth check as part of your next action, since you have concealment until the end of your next action (or you make an attack, or until the end of your turn, whichever happens first). Usually, you will use it to move away, but there are other ways to use it as well.
Hmmm, here's a question for you....
Normally, the rogue would have had to get behind cover in order for that brief period of concealment after a bluff to be useful. However there is this line in the stealth rules: "If during your last action you were hidden to a creature, you are still considered hidden when you make the first attack of that new action". So, doesn't that mean a rogue could bluff, stealth, and then sneak attack all in the same round even without an real cover or concealment around?
I don't consider this overpowered because it is basically a harder version of the Improved Feint feat, but I wanted to make sure that my interpretation was correct and that this was intended in the rules.
If you stealth as part of an action, you must have cover or concealment (or hide in plain sight, or invisibility) in order to do it. Remember, you always use stealth as part of an action.