Politics in Sins of the Saviors (spoilers)

Stephen Greer made some great suggestions for adding a political element to _Sins_ in another thread; I'm starting a new thread for them, as it's intrinsically spoiler material.

My biggest problem is that I'd like the PCs to at least consider allying with one or more of the internal factions--that's going to be a lot more dynamic and morally challenging than simply fighting them. But an alliance should have a gain for each side. Stephen suggested that the Wrath faction should hold the Runewell and persuade the PCs to kill the other sin wizards and bring back the components. This is nice for the Wrathful, who will possibly eliminate their foes and can then, if they like, jump the PCs when they're nice and weak and lugging the components; but it's not clear why the PCs would agree if the Wrathful have nothing to offer but "we're holding the Runewell for you." The Runewell is not going anywhere, and frankly, anything the Wrathful could defend against, the PCs could easily attack and defeat. (Defense is much harder than offense in D&D.)

In #3 the scenario added NPC allies directly to the party, but that gets harder and harder on the GM as the levels increase. So I'm not too keen on having the Wrathful help in combat. I might not be able to run the resulting fights well.

(I do like using the Wrathful for this, as Wrath is my PCs' sin for sure: they were the ones who actually thought of themselves, for a while in #1, as working for Alaznist. If it weren't so hard to write high-level adventures, it would be interesting to see if they'd contemplate waking Alaznist to get rid of Karzoug. Now *that* would be a spectacular sin. I'm not up to writing it, though.)

The Wrathful can claim to have essential information, but I wonder if the PCs will respond by thrashing them and applying Detect Thoughts or Speak with Dead or Dominate Person. Maybe not; they do share a sin, after all, and the PCs may decide they like them. (This is the party which made friends with Aldern Foxglove in #2. They have...interesting tastes.) I might try this. I don't *have* to get an alliance, I just have to make it a realistic possibility.

Maybe there are things only a native of the complex can do? Then the Wrathful would have more bargaining power.

Maybe the Wrathful have an existing alliance that will let them get close to one of the other sin wizards, giving the PCs an in to use for an attack (or negotiation)? Betrayal is a good sin.

Or maybe the PCs' sympathies can be engaged by putting the Wrathful (who seem like the most likable faction, at least for my particular PCs) in a dangerous position with one of the other factions, so that the PCs end up rescuing them. There's a tendency to like people you rescue....

I will have to go through the mechanics carefully as it seemed to me on first reading that the Wrathful are actually toast if molested by the others. They'd need to be a credible faction. But if that's a problem, it should be fixable.

Still thinking about this. I will probably need to run it in two weeks, so I need to start the mods now.

Mary

I think that the wrathfull are the most numerous faction, and that is the reason for their continued existance. In D&D, numbers mean alot, specificaly actions in combat. they have sinspawn and melee-capable casters. that's alot of actions to take in a given round. their high will saves make them resistant to enchantment, too, so the other numerous party looses their advantage as well.

I actually think that the lich might be the goto fellow for an alliance. He's the most sane person there that doesnt have a vested interest in Karzoug coming back. I can imagine the eugenicaly-enginered humans in the wrath wing being xenophobic to the point of insanity; they have generations of dealing with only a few people, and hating everyone who isnt them. they attack on sight, period. the lich, on the other hand, while undead, has direct memories of dealing with other people, and has had a syncophantic buddy to stop him from totally going bonkers. the Succubus and Alu-feinds, on the other hand, can be bargained with for a component, but are simply more interested in whiling away the days together (hem hem) than actually providing aid to anyone.

Or maybe the PCs' sympathies can be engaged by putting the Wrathful (who seem like the most likable faction, at least for my particular PCs) in a dangerous position with one of the other factions, so that the PCs end up rescuing them. There's a tendency to like people you rescue....

I will have to go through the mechanics carefully as it seemed to me on first reading that the Wrathful are actually toast if molested by the others. They'd need to be a credible faction. But if that's a problem, it should be fixable.

I agree that the Wrathful is a good one to ally with, mostly because I think they already need the most "fixing" in order to make sense anyway. 2 factions die out, one gets a lich, one goes golem, one clones himself. Lust gets an immortality field...just cause? And wrath...wrath breeds? For 10,000 years? 300+ generations growing up in a 12-bedroom complex with no driving goal other than training for a war that has been promised for as long as memory, but never arrives.

Personally, that boggles my mind way more than the "tiptoeing dragon."

I don't really know the answer to that problem, but I can see a way to make it at least slightly more plausible: children. Make sure that your human soldiers are evenly mixed-gender. Make at least one of the women pregnant. Throw in some teenagers, a couple younger children, and at least one infant. You want a moral quandry related to wrath, you make your players have to deal with a couple 8-year-olds trained for battle who want to kill them. And if your players are going to ally with anyone, it's going to be the people with babies.

Bringing it back around to the politics, let's throw out the immortality field on Lust. Instead, Mr. Doggie is a wrath soldier. Maybe Lust sends little raids in every once in a while to get a new pet or two, or maybe Wrath has allied with Lust for protection, and the cost is a virile male every 25 years? Pride and Lust get along well, so if Wrath is paying off Lust, then they've got the protection of two different factions, making their survival against powerhouses like the lich much more plausible. Now that I think on it, Wrath can act as a great stabilizing influence throughout the complex, since they're also the only source of fresh bodies for the lich to play with. Old people get Logan's Run'ed into Sinspawn, but don't Sinspawn age and die? And if they don't, why isn't it a complex full of a half-million Sinspawn?

It still doesn't feel juicy enough for me, but it's a start. Anyone else want to take this ball and run with it a bit?

I presume Lust erected the immortality field when the original wizards were still in control, to keep themselves young and beautiful...

I presume Lust erected the immortality field when the original wizards were still in control, to keep themselves young and beautiful...

Hmm, that's good. Then again, it seems like that would have set off the "civil war" a lot sooner, since I can't see Envy allowing Lust to have exclusive rights to (arguably) the most powerful magical effect in the complex.

The tiptoeing dragon thing is humerous the way everyone is describing it. It's entirely optional for Arkhryst to enter Runeforge if not slain. You don't want him in there? Then don't have him enter. However, curiosity and maliciousness are powerful things. Having the dragon wander in a while after the PCs have gone through the portal is not so far fetched. This was James Jacobs's idea and when I read it the first time I giggled evilly to myself. The thought of the PCs exiting their fist of the many branches of Runeforge only to find the dragon there curiously examining the central hub and itching for a rematch just seems too fun not to try. Personally, I'd not send the dragon snooping down any of the branching corridors since A) it's a bit small to be squeezing down those corridors just for the hell of it, and B) his natural caution from centuries of prolonged living. The initial trip down the corridor from the planar portal isn't such a stretch since the hub area where area D is located is plainly visible from any part of that entry corridor, small fit or no, and wouldn't seem too much of a risk. The rest are a bit too vague on contents.

Also, the ideas about playing up the politics of Runeforge are pretty cool so far. Keep 'em coming.

Actually, having Arkhryst follow them in was a bit I really liked, even if it could come across as silly. It just feels like a section that needs to be handled delicately in order to work right. From my perspective, I know that unless I make it clear that he came in after them, my players will assume that he was always allied with the wizards of Runeforge, and they'll get confused about how he was getting in and out.

To give you the props you deserve for this adventure, Mr. Greer, this is a beautiful dungeon crawl. Definitely evokes the Tomb of Horrors vibe from my perspective. Much like Mary, I'm not sure that this is exactly the kind of adventure my players are going to be looking for, but for what it is, it's fabulous.

I'm curious what your thoughts are on my concerns with the Wrathful. I just keep getting caught on the 10,000 years timeline. That means it's a tiny society that's been in cultural statis for 5 times as long as it's been since Christ died. It's such an inconceivably long time that I can't imagine what they've been doing all that time.

I presume Lust erected the immortality field when the original wizards were still in control, to keep themselves young and beautiful...

This is, in fact, true. Mostly because of all the runelords, only Runelord Sorshen (the lady of lust) had the secret of eternal youth to play with. The other runelords all had other solutions for immortality.

I'm curious what your thoughts are on my concerns with the Wrathful. I just keep getting caught on the 10,000 years timeline. That means it's a tiny society that's been in cultural statis for 5 times as long as it's been since Christ died. It's such an inconceivably long time that I can't imagine what they've been doing all that time.

There wasn't really enough room to go into detail on the society the Wrathful wing has going on in there, alas. The presence of the fleshwarping lab was, in part, to help explain HOW they could remain viable over the centuries. Certainly, they don't think the same way that people in Varisia or anywhere else do. Over 10,000 years of living in such a small area, they're probably not very humanlike in their setup at all, and the process of breeding and killing and birthing and fighting is all they've got. The best way I can think of is to present them almost like they're soulless androids or so strangely in tune that they fight almost as if they have a hivemind type thing going on.

As for the dragon creeping into Runeforge, that's, as Steve mentioned, only an option. I suspect most groups will kill him even before he gets a chance to flee in the first place. You'll note that the rest of the adventure proceeds with the assumption that there's NOT a dragon creeping around in the dungeon. It's an option in there for GMs to run with if they want, but it's not the anticipated way the adventure expects things will go.

To give you the props you deserve for this adventure, Mr. Greer, this is a beautiful dungeon crawl. Definitely evokes the Tomb of Horrors vibe from my perspective. Much like Mary, I'm not sure that this is exactly the kind of adventure my players are going to be looking for, but for what it is, it's fabulous.

Thank you very much. I appreciate the good words.

I'm curious what your thoughts are on my concerns with the Wrathful. I just keep getting caught on the 10,000 years timeline. That means it's a tiny society that's been in cultural statis for 5 times as long as it's been since Christ died. It's such an inconceivably long time that I can't imagine what they've been doing all that time.

Well, first of all, they think and act nothing like Varisians or even ancient Thassilonians act like. We could write up a whole chapter on the psychological and socioligical ramifications of time and lifestyle on these people.

What would they be doing for 10,000 years? Sex and violence! Seriously. I'm not joking. Attempting to breed the strongest and smartest physical specimens possible. Think of the ancient Spartans and their practices (watch the movie 300 or the equivalent specials on the History Channel). They lived to be warriors if they lived at all. When they were first born they were taken and placed on a clifftop overnight with no protection. If they survived, they were deemed worthy to live and become a part of their warrior society. If not, they weren't fit and so, on for mom and dad to try again ;)

At 7 (or 8 according to some), they were taken from their parents and taught to fight, steal, and basically do everything they could think up or do to beat their opponents and survive. Sometimes they didn't make it past these learning years. But if they did, they joined the warrior elite.

I imagine this to be very similar to the lifestyle of these Warriors of Wrath. The reason I created the Master Circle was to provide more things for these guys to fight, more ways for them to test their mettle.

Also, though their numbers are fairly small as written for the time the players enter Runeforge, it is fair to say that they probably have a few population booms and much more birth rates than their numbers would indicate. Imagine fighting with the sword and with highly lethal magic. That's going to create a lot more deaths. Thus, the breed like crazy to maintain the status quo.

When you run an encounter with any of them, it should be with extremely odd gestures, battlecries, techniques, and forms. In other words, fighting styles that are bafflingly unfamiliar to anything the PCs recognize. Imagine them using their swords to trace their somatic components, while jerking their bodies in strange spasmodic patterns, etc.

One other thing to remember that we as gamers tend to forget is that D&D is not medievil reenactment. It's fantasy and as such is just a bit off from the reality we all recognize. So, 10,000 years as in many fantasy or sci-fi novels isn't such a stretch when you're dealing with that kind of setting.

Well, I prefer my fantasy worlds to be as un-fantastic as possible while still being interesting. people are people, even when they have poity ears or live in Limbo. Some living creatures might be created, but most are evolved by the normal method, even if a stray magical accident gave them an extra set of limbs along the way.

But, adding fantasy elements allows you to examine what would happen to people in unlikely situations. for example, what happens to humans who are gish wizards when they are sequestered in a closed-in enviroment for 10,000 years, but freed from any needs to work for their food? the answer: they move pretty far from being human and wind up like an extremely nasty, excessive version of Spartans or any other warrior culture, to the point where they loose most of the things that one would consider necessary for qualifying as human. Traits the wrathfull certainly seem to have lost.

Thoughts on making the Warriors of Wrath more fantastic and alien (inspired by my readings for a Sociology class):

The Warriors of Wrath hate their bodies. What started as a convenient way to "recycle" members getting too old to fight - the sinspawn transformation - has become a religion in all but name. The highest aspiration a Warrior of Wrath can achieve is surviving to reach the point of transformation, and as such, they ritualistically mutilate themselves to more closely resemble their physical ideal.

When a baby is born to a Warrior of Wrath, if it is deemed worthy of living, its legs are broken and set with boards to shape them into a more dog-like kink. When a child is ready to begin warrior training, its jaw is split down the middle and clamped together to allow it to heal - muteness tends to make the youths more obedient, and the deformation gives the chin a cleft reminiscent of the forked jaw of the sinspawn. Adults shave their heads as a matter of course, and often break their noses into a more pleasing, sinspawn-like flattened shape.

Scarification is the closest thing a Warrior of Wrath has to individual expression. Without access to magical healing, almost all major wounds leave some scarring behind, and salt, vinegar and even alchemist's fire are rubbed into the wounds to ensure a properly livid and dramatic scar. Special serrated cold iron knives are also used for scarification, both for recreational purposes and for coming of age ceremonies (upon completing battle training, learning a new level of spells, etc). There is no love for the Warriors of Wrath; the closest two Warriors will ever come to affection is for a Warrior to modify his or her scarring to match a chosen partner's - or to scar a partner to more resemble themselves.

My player asked me why I was stalling on _Sins_ and I told him in general terms that I wanted politics but didn't see the factions as having effective offers to make to the PCs. Without politics, I felt, he'd be bored.

He said, "Set the darned thing in Sandpoint. Have some people we know among the ones who went down to--whatever it is down there--and didn't come back. They're hostages among the factions. That'll give you all the politics you need. Oh, you could throw in a couple of those hellknights too, if you want Magnimar involvement."

It's going to be a lot of work, but his enthusiasm for this change was obvious. He was very disappointed that Fort Rannick was so far from Sandpoint, and thus his PCs felt no ties to it. So I think this is what I'll try. It certainly increases the emotional stakes.

The main parts I have to think out now are: how is Xaliasa connected with the hostage-taking? Did he sell the Sandpointers to some faction in return for stuff he needs to set up his new power base? How does one get inside? The stone circle at the Cathedral is tempting but rather out of Xaliasa's reach; a Gate down below might make more sense. Why did the factions take hostages, and what do they want in return for them? Presumably this goes with a much livelier view of the complex, where people think that escape and the rebirth of their Runelords is actually at hand, and are actively manuvering for it.

Mary

For me the problem with portraying the Wrathful as inhuman killing machines is that my player won't see that as a fascinatingly alien society--he'll see it as just the same old D&D default of unmotivated violent monsters. And the interaction is likely to be so brief he'll never see anything else.

I really like the suggestion to have Wrathful kids. I can just see the PCs causing themselves trouble by "rescuing" them and trying to put them in the Sandpoint orphanage. (The player knows better but I'm not sure the PCs do.)

As Wrath is my PCs' besetting sin, I'd like to give them Wrathful that actually seem somewhat sympathetic at first and show their true nature only with time, thus challenging the PCs' acceptance of their own wrath. *Would* they really work for Alaznist, as they thought at campaign start? Is the enemy of your enemy an acceptable friend?

Mary

My player asked me why I was stalling on _Sins_ and I told him in general terms that I wanted politics but didn't see the factions as having effective offers to make to the PCs. Without politics, I felt, he'd be bored.

He said, "Set the darned thing in Sandpoint. Have some people we know among the ones who went down to--whatever it is down there--and didn't come back. They're hostages among the factions. That'll give you all the politics you need. Oh, you could throw in a couple of those hellknights too, if you want Magnimar involvement."

It's going to be a lot of work, but his enthusiasm for this change was obvious. He was very disappointed that Fort Rannick was so far from Sandpoint, and thus his PCs felt no ties to it. So I think this is what I'll try. It certainly increases the emotional stakes.

The main parts I have to think out now are: how is Xaliasa connected with the hostage-taking? Did he sell the Sandpointers to some faction in return for stuff he needs to set up his new power base? How does one get inside? The stone circle at the Cathedral is tempting but rather out of Xaliasa's reach; a Gate down below might make more sense. Why did the factions take hostages, and what do they want in return for them? Presumably this goes with a much livelier view of the complex, where people think that escape and the rebirth of their Runelords is actually at hand, and are actively manuvering for it.

Mary

Mary, if that's what he wants, why not just add a tantalizingly tempting gate portal to Runeforge right there in the The Scribbler's dungeon? You can port the lake and standing stones (and the dragon, even, if you want) to the mountains just outside of Sandpoint. Everything's all nice and close by and problem solved.

I think the original intent was to give the PCs an excuse to get to know Varisia and allow DMs to embellish on the "in between stuff". But there's no reason you can't put all the necessary components for the adventure right there in the Catacombs and in the mountains outside of town.

Mary, if that's what he wants, why not just add a tantalizingly tempting gate portal to Runeforge right there in the The Scribbler's dungeon? You can port the lake and standing stones (and the dragon, even, if you want) to the mountains just outside of Sandpoint. Everything's all nice and close by and problem solved.

The main thing I'm still working on is not where the portal to Runeforge is, but how and why Xaliasa would send hostages there. There's a nice hook in the sentence about "Wants to send an expedition to Runeforge to loot it as he's sure it's long abandoned". Would he mistakenly think that the magic which prevents people from leaving is gone? Otherwise, looting is rather difficult--all you can get is knowledge, and only if you have one of those statues at your beck and call.

So. maybe he thinks or hopes that the forbidding magic is gone, and sends some local people through to find out. But they don't come back. Hm, can he talk/coerce the PCs, who are clearly more powerful, into going after them? I don't know if they'll agree or not, and don't really mind either way.

I have to work out how one *does* come back from Runeforge, as my campaign lacks plane shift and related spells: all it has is standing gates. (I am turning X.'s dimension door into mirrors which project images.)

In the module as written Xaliasa can't have sent anyone to Runeforge as he hasn't taken the keys. But I need to lose the whole key motif anyway: my player is out of patience with keys that apparently exist only to allow unauthorized access to places that should be secure. I think X. will simply know a ritual, requiring a spell of each school, to open a way to Runeforge via a standing-stone circle beneath the Hellfire Flume--but of course he can't go himself. If the PCs kill him they must deduce the ritual from his notes.

(As a morbid detail, I think Xaliasa has kept one of the hostages with him, the town midwife, because he's pregnant and thinks giving birth might be risky even with fast healing....)

(I have similar questions about why the stone circle in the Cathedral is not in the Hellfire Flume instead. I mean, if I had a tower that shot flame, I would really not want its control room to be outside where a sneaky enemy might use it against me. Zot! Ouch! A red dragon could have *so* much fun with this.)

The critical point is to have Sandpoint locals in Runeforge, forcing the player to deal with the factions and faction politics in a more complex way than if there was no one there he cared about. This was his strong recommendation for making the adventure playable, as his interest in Tomb of Horrors for its own sake is nil.

Mary

I'm curious what your thoughts are on my concerns with the Wrathful. I just keep getting caught on the 10,000 years timeline. That means it's a tiny society that's been in cultural statis for 5 times as long as it's been since Christ died. It's such an inconceivably long time that I can't imagine what they've been doing all that time.

I've only read part of the adventure, so far, but I did notice that the first paragraph of the adventure mentions:

I wonder if time passes differently in there. Maybe it's still been a long time, but only 1000 years instead of 10,000. And if this is the case, maybe time passes equally oddly for the PCs whilethey're in there - for each day they spend within, 10 days pass outside.

I don't know if anything later in the adventure contradicts this, or encourages it - I just figured I'd put the idea out here now in case someone sees some possibilities in it.

Living In FRance ? I don't have sins yet but given what I've read
there is two factions who might help the citizens of Sandpoint

One is the lust faction : Who is this one ? Looks exotic ! Want to be a new toy in exchange for survival?
The citizens are not hostages. Some might not even want to leave (Anyone remmember Shayliss ?)

The other one is the wrath faction who would welcome the new Blood :
"Welcome, citizen , we have just rescued you from the Golem/undead/etc and we are prepared to accept you in the community !
Please take this sword and help us defend our and your life! Of course , you can marry whoever you like here and help us create the next generation of warriors! "
When your PC meet the faction for the first time , have one Sandpointer be there , armed and ready to help defend the faction. This should stop the action sufficiently for some discussion

I wonder if time passes differently in there. Maybe it's still been a long time, but only 1000 years instead of 10,000. And if this is the case, maybe time passes equally oddly for the PCs whilethey're in there - for each day they spend within, 10 days pass outside.

I considered that option, but it doesn't really work. Runeforge was created to foster magical research--why would the Runelords create a lab that produces new stuff 10 times slower than one on the Material? If anything, the Runelords would have made time run slower inside, not faster, making the problem worse.

I really love the above material about turning them into a bugnuts warrior society. It's still implausible, but at least it's a flavorful implausible. The next trick is to make them an engaging bunch of crazies, and not just a block of flavor text followed by some dead human freaks.

This is, in fact, true. Mostly because of all the runelords, only Runelord Sorshen (the lady of lust) had the secret of eternal youth to play with. The other runelords all had other solutions for immortality.

That smells a lot like Sorshen never went into hibernation at all, and has been slutting her way around the world manipulating things for the last 10,000 years. Eeeexcelent.

I'm curious about the other runelord's solutions. I'd gotten the impression that there would be hints in the various wings about each Runelord's survival method, but that doesn't seem to be borne out. Cloning, "going golem" and lichdom would all leave the Runelords up and about all this time. One with some subtlety I can buy, but most of them need to have been asleep all this time.

I'm curious about the other runelord's solutions. I'd gotten the impression that there would be hints in the various wings about each Runelord's survival method, but that doesn't seem to be borne out. Cloning, "going golem" and lichdom would all leave the Runelords up and about all this time. One with some subtlety I can buy, but most of them need to have been asleep all this time.

Actually... there ARE clues in Runeforge for a couple of the methods runelords took to escape the destruction of Thassilon. Not for all of them; but certainly for some of them. And one of them has clues coming soon in the web enhancement.

Ooooh, web enhancement... (drool)

Actually... there ARE clues in Runeforge for a couple of the methods runelords took to escape the destruction of Thassilon. Not for all of them; but certainly for some of them. And one of them has clues coming soon in the web enhancement.

Ah, man! That's all I need...an excuse to read through the whole thing with a fine-toothed comb again. You bastards and your excellent, excellent products...

Is it safe to assume, at least, that "has been awake the whole time" is the answer for no more than 2 of them?

Actually... there ARE clues in Runeforge for a couple of the methods runelords took to escape the destruction of Thassilon. Not for all of them; but certainly for some of them. And one of them has clues coming soon in the web enhancement.

Yeppers, read it much too fast the first two times. There's Zutha's way out plain as can be. I expect I'll find that I missed a couple more in here. My humble apologies for having doubted you.

Cintra Bristol wrote:

I wonder if time passes differently in there.

I considered that option, but it doesn't really work. Runeforge was created to foster magical research--why would the Runelords create a lab that produces new stuff 10 times slower than one on the Material? If anything, the Runelords would have made time run slower inside, not faster, making the problem worse.

I like your line of reasoning. But we did think of a way and I got a good chuckle out of it, though I probably won't use it.

You see, the Runelord of Sloth wasn't actually into hard-driving research arms races. He already knew all he needed to, and research is a lot of work. So he put a little twist in his contributions to Runeforge's design: not until they had already irrecovably committed many of their best wizards did the other Runelords realize that they were bucking a 10x time differential, and then it was too late. The Lord of Sloth was quite pleased, because now his own best researchers (kept out of Runeforge) were working 10x faster than the others without any extra effort at all. Of course, the fact that he deliberately didn't send his best led to the early demise of his Runeforge faction....

Mary

You see, the Runelord of Sloth wasn't actually into hard-driving research arms races. He already knew all he needed to, and research is a lot of work. So he put a little twist in his contributions to Runeforge's design: not until they had already irrecovably committed many of their best wizards did the other Runelords realize that they were bucking a 10x time differential, and then it was too late. The Lord of Sloth was quite pleased, because now his own best researchers (kept out of Runeforge) were working 10x faster than the others without any extra effort at all. Of course, the fact that he deliberately didn't send his best led to the early demise of his Runeforge faction....

Excellent! I actually did write in a time altering element for Runeforge, but mine wasn't nearly as solid as your idea Mary (and didn't make it past editing). Wow! Where were you when I was writing this?! ::shakes fist::

Excellent! I actually did write in a time altering element for Runeforge, but mine wasn't nearly as solid as your idea Mary (and didn't make it past editing). Wow! Where were you when I was writing this?! ::shakes fist::

I agree, that's a pretty interesting way to tie off some loose ends.

Mary Yamato sure does produce a lot of alternative/additional material for the AP. Ans she only has one (very picky) player. I doubt my group of 6 is likely to fixate on as many potential holes in the logic.

Mary must spend a lot of time thinking about this stuff - maybe she has her own time-slip going, giving her an unfair advantage.

Mary must spend a lot of time thinking about this stuff - maybe she has her own time-slip going, giving her an unfair advantage.

Right now our personal lives are in chaos; we're trying and failing to adopt a child, and trying and failing to get a government grant at work. D&D makes for a pretty nice escape. And if you are married to your player, sneaking in an extra session now and then isn't so hard....

I wouldn't mind doing less work, though. _Sins_ has already been more work than all four of the others put together, and we're only in the Catacombs of Wrath.

Mary

I am badly confused by Ordikon.

"The only thing that has prevented him from descending fully into madness is whispers from his lord Karzoug. Ordikon ... knows his master is nearing a return to power."

"Ordikon ...can remember, at times, that other wizards worked with him, and that he once served a man named Karzoug."

"Once the dust settled, the plan was for the Lords of Greed to travel to Xin-Shalast. ... Unfortunately, the Lords of Greed perished, leaving Ordikon the only one to do the job. After his transformation...even he forgot his former master."

So, does he or doesn't he?

And how the heck did Karzoug think that people *permanently bound in Runeforge* were going to carry out a rescue plan that involves traveling to Xin-Shalast? "The post was for life"--I took that to mean that they never had a way to leave.

Mary

I am badly confused by Ordikon.

"The only thing that has prevented him from descending fully into madness is whispers from his lord Karzoug. Ordikon ... knows his master is nearing a return to power."

"Ordikon ...can remember, at times, that other wizards worked with him, and that he once served a man named Karzoug."

"Once the dust settled, the plan was for the Lords of Greed to travel to Xin-Shalast. ... Unfortunately, the Lords of Greed perished, leaving Ordikon the only one to do the job. After his transformation...even he forgot his former master."

So, does he or doesn't he?

And how the heck did Karzoug think that people *permanently bound in Runeforge* were going to carry out a rescue plan that involves traveling to Xin-Shalast? "The post was for life"--I took that to mean that they never had a way to leave.

Mary

My original concept of Ordikon was a bit different. He wasn't mad at all, but was insanely greedy and when a lot of the greed mages were killed during the attack on the Abjurant Halls, he took the advantage of the Greed mages depleted numbers to assassinate his remaining rivals for dominion over the Halls of Greed. He had gone a little off kilter with isolation and his own covetousness, but was not totally insane yet.

While James's changes are superior to what I wrote originally, I think during the rush to get this to print he simply missed these contradictions. I would go with the second paragraph over the first one above.

The post for life thing is correct. It doesn't actually contradict anything. The plan would simply be that whatever Greed Mages were currently in Runeforge when he stirred again would enact said rescue plan. However, the qualities of Runeforge itself may not have been anticipated or understood at the time those plans were made.

As far as the wrath followers go could they have a setup like Tom Cruise's character in Oblivion? The wrath part of the complex is setup so it learns everything the experimenters learn, then recreates them every 50 years incorporating the new information into the next iteration and hence improving the product.

If this were true then the most recent batch could be any where in that 50 year spectrum. They could even think the cataclysm had just occurred!

Fricking thread necromancy ._.; Campaign in the thread has probably been over for years already <_< Why do people read old threads and post in them, this thread predates even the Aniversary edition...

Tracked down Steve Greer's post as referenced in the original thread: Here is is.