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I'm going to post my thoughts in a spoiler, just so I'm not whacking people upside the head with a wall of text or exposing everyone to my half-baked ideas and musings. The short version is that I generally agree that alignment is a subpar system, but I'm also a little leery of playing at a table filled with evil characters. Nothing against the players, but it just makes me uncomfortable. I would like to know what arcs y'all have planned for your characters before I decide if I'm in or out, though.
I have to admit that I'm on the side that alignment as written is not a good system. I don't necessarily think it is a bad one either, however. Alignment, as far as I can tell, is a way to limit access to certain spells, abilities, classes, and gear while also allowing characters to access other spells, abilities, classes, and gear. Where it falls flat is that it's treated as a shorthand for motivations or personality by some.
For example, it's generally assumed that a paladin, with their Lawful Good alignment, is going to be a paragon of virtue, a stalwart guardian of law and civilization that smites any evil-doers. If you're feeling uncharitable, they are self-righteous sticks-in-the-mud. I've certainly fallen into that trap.
But they don't have to be. Is it better to be true to the letter of the law or to the values and beliefs of your faith? Which one could be considered more Lawful? Do you let evil happen because the law ties your hands, or do you step in and clock the noble S.O.B. and accept the consequences of striking a peer of the realm? Are you barred from ever lying to protect your own person because you are afraid and want to avoid violence just because you took an oath to be honest?
I've had Lawful Good characters chose the arguably less lawful option because their conscious demanded that they step in to help someone they admire while their father assaulted them and because they are a scared sixteen-year-old that snuck out of their temple to deal with a scumbag that had terrorized her as a child and had continued to do so, and she was meeting with a bunch of people she did no know, nor trust.
To me, the alignment system is a holdover that is in need of a hard look and revamp. It could be a useful tool for identifying a character's outlook and disposition, but it needs a lot of work to do that. Are you focused on your own wellbeing or that of the community? Do you work within the bounds of a moral framework, or are you more of the type to do what you feel in the moment? Do you show mercy? Do you do what you believe you have to? Do you give into your base desires and worst impulses? These are questions that the current system can't really answer.
Say you are playing a rogue that steals from the rich and powerful to give out to those in need of the coin. They have a strict code that they operate by, one in which they never keep the spoils of their thievery nor do they kill those they encounter. Is that person Chaotic for breaking the law or Lawful for strictly adhering to a code of ethics, even if it makes their life harder. Do they wind up Neutral due to the duality of their nature?
Another one, say you're playing an assassin that works for the good of the kingdom by going after corrupt nobles and officials. They have the prestige class, Assassin. Rules as written, they are evil, but one could argue that they are good by putting the needs of the kingdom and its people above their own.
And one more. Say you have a paladin that goes around, hearing cases and passing judgements on witches. Again, they're Lawful Good based on rules as written, but they are a merciless sort. If someone convinces them that the defendant is a witch, the defendant burns or is drowned. It's perfectly legal to do this, and doesn't violate the paladin's oath, but they make no consideration of what evil nor good a supposed witch has done. If they are guilty of witchcraft, they drown or burn. You could make an argument that the paladin is evil based on their cold, unyielding application of the law. They don't need to hear cases and pass judgement, but they do it anyway.
I'm more of a narrative player. I like using character stories and motivations to inform how they act, and often times alignment is an afterthought. That said, the designers had a clear goal in mind for the alignment system and tried to define the alignments as concretely as possible. I think it just wasn't a good implementation of a mechanical way of defining a character's moral framework.
Having said that, there is a stigma around certain alignments for a reason. I think most of us can think of a player or two that would be "That Guy" that would pick Chaotic Neutral or Chaotic Evil and insist all of the terrible crap they did was "in character." I'm not accusing anyone here of that, but it is something that happens, however infrequently. Seeing players wanting to play evil characters does make me nervous and wonder if this is the game for me. I like playing games where characters are good and heroic. If there is an evil character, I want to see them put on the path of redemption and become good over time. I've even played a character like this where she started off as an evil torturer and was slowly turning into a better person. The game died before that arc could finish, but I liked the character and I hope to be able to play her again.
My point is, I, as a player, am not really all that comfortable with playing with or even as an evil character. It's just not in my nature. I would like to know what paths all of y'all planning on playing evil characters have planned before I decide if I'm in or out.
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So, as in my dialogue with Victor, your alignment tries to characterize your character’s morals with two letters. Neutral evil characters are dedicated to evil without being concerned with freedom or law. Drow are NE and Gary Gygax called NE the most dangerous kind of evil. So putting a vowel in your alignment means you are a bad guy. In the Fellowship of the Ring movies you would be on Sauron or Saramun’s side. I plan to run two groups.
Group one will be primarily good with maybe a neutral or two. It will be what we typically see as “good guys”. Group two will be morally ambiguous. Once you get your charter, you will be tasked to stabilize the region.
I have already decided to make Robert Henry, Adam, and hustonj part of group one. Any evil character will be considered for group 2. As this should make for interesting gameplay and test the Way of the Wicked Waters, I feel I can make it work. Just realize evil characters need to be evil. When dealing with evil forces later in the AP, you may be on the same side so to speak.
A covetous cursed Oracle of Abadar would seem a hoot on paper... Perhaps both oracle and inquisitor are misfits within the Church. Being sent to a backwater to fail... and if somehow they succeed and fill the coffers then it was all Abadar's will in the first place :)
I didn't know that was a thing until just now. I think I have my character concept. An oracle with the Covetous curse constantly trying to be good, really, but always winding up fighting against their own greed. I think a LG inquisitor would make a great foil.
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I will freely admit I have only ever played an evil character in Way of the Wicked. And sadly my two WoW PbP games didn’t last long. I role play to be a “good guy”, and I even felt strange as a bad guy. I wanted to be a Wreck it Ralph bad guy.
That said, I will make this group 2 adventure what I think you want. Bad guys get some charters and set up a kingdom how they like. If they want to make it like a hell knight ruled kingdom, I can see that. If they want to make it like Baron Harkonnen in the movie Dune, that could work too.
I think alignment is finally showing me why it is worth a dam. Each role playing group needs to have common goals and expectations. We may have averted putting noncompatible characters together.
Thank you for clarifying, GM Tribute!
Okay, given that response, I'm going to throw Elfriede Vass's hat in the ring. She's not mustache twirly evil, just messed up emotionally. She's a changeling witch, backstory attached. I'll be tweaking the last little bit of it to account for the different start to the game.
Same here. I appreciate you taking the time to clarify that.
Have you come up with a background for the Abadarian Inquisitor? I was thinking of playing a half-elf, and wondered if perhaps we could be half-siblings.
Also, what do you think got us kicked out all the way to Brevoy and Rostov?
@GM Tribute - how do you feel about Words of Power? It is an alternate spell system, Paizo published, that is entirely closed (no additional support beyond one book). I have a PC I've not gotten to play that needs it for both flavor and to make sense at the earliest levels.
The PC is an aasimar (mostly human, with the Angel ancestry for the Alter Self SLA) Red-Dragon Draconic Sorcerer who intends to become a dragon (via Dragon Disciple PrC). It's not the strongest of builds, but takes inspiration from two guides I've read: Oterisk's Dragon Disciple Guide (aiming at the "Beast Caster") and Thus She Spoke for Word Casting (please see page 13 of that guide - I'm hoping you would consider the first option if I'm selected).
What this gets is a level 1 PC who can become a "dragon" (Lizardfolk, with SLA 1 minute/day) and a "breath weapon" (Cone Flame Jet). It's not overpowering, really, as it's got 10-ft range for 1d4+1 damage with a Reflex save for half - good against swarms, maybe, but that's really it. What I hope is that it is flavorful and interesting - a "dragon" PC at level 1.
Please let me know what you think. I don't think Words of Power are overpowered - it's lacking a TON of spell options presented in non Core Rule Books (since it's only a direct port of Core spells into the system), but it does introduce some interesting magic I would flavor as "draconic" in nature.
Thanks!
Hey, I would prefer to avoid Words of Power.
I am trying to avoid any third party.
For a while I was Core rulebook only. So I like to say I have evolved.
I do have PFS sorcerer aasimar (before you needed a boon) that is trying for the same class. Sounds good.
It’s not third-party. Paizo published, part of the Ultimate Magic book, if I remember correctly.
Sorry, no words of power. But add the cone jet SLA you referenced to your character as a sorcerer cantrip. Let us limit it to 3x per day.
It is a variant rule, but yeah, it's entirely Paizo-publlished.
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No minimums means you can buy a 7 and get 4 points back.
Many recruitments specify stat maximums and minimums, probably to deter min maxing. I believe you should be able to spend your entire 15 points as you please. Want a fighter with a 7 in intelligence and charisma, this is the place to do it.
You may have me— is it on SRD PRD or Archives of Nethys
I linked it in my original question-post. It’s on the PF SRD.
See edited post above. Trying to compromise — some old dogs don’t want to learn some new tricks.
I feel the magic system is quite good as is and want to work within the one I am familiar with.
I can work with that…if anything it’s actually less work for me, though I do like the idea of different draconian magic…/sad-face.
I totally relate to old dog new tricks issues - it’s part of why I’ve only tried the tiniest bit of non-3.5/PF1e stuff…
...I would like to know what arcs y'all have planned for your characters before I decide if I'm in or out, though.
** spoiler full of excellent points omitted **
My conceptualization of NE in this case is merely that my character would not have a problem with making the Evil choice if doing so served his or even the party's better interest, but not that he would actively pursue it. The irony being, who knows if it would ever even matter depending how the game rolls out. If all we ever encounter are patently evil adversaries or beasts/monsters acting on predatory instincts, the whole thing may be moot and my character is simply acting as the definition of NG the whole time!
If others would vote my concept is more of a Neutral mindset that's perfectly fine for me. All in all, I think Alignment is pretty dumb as a game mechanic, so whatever you label my character is entirely fine with me and will only minimally affect how I will roleplay a character who may straddle the line frequently. And to me, roleplay is much more paramount than a two letter abbreviation on my character sheet.
Oddly if actions are the only benchmark, a thing Alignment-as-a-game-mechanic doesn't consider is situation and opportunity are greatly involved. If my character never has the chance to act on murderous impulses does that mean he's LG until proven otherwise? Weird to rationalize.
However, if the expectation of placing an Evil tag on my character forces me to have my character behave awful just because, I'm completely out as that is 100% not what I am after, and I wouldn't want to play with anyone whose view on Alignment is that my RP must be informed and dictated by the abbreviation regardless of type: good, bad, or ugly. :/
My Alchemist's backstory and motivation for joining the team is purely RP fodder, but by no means a requirement. Truthfully, I just want to play an Alchemist, and I can set up a backstory/motivation of any alignment you like. I'm just a huge fan of the Bioshock series and its dystopian setting, so if the chance to play a scientist who wishes to be unfettered by societal restrictions on experimentation for the pursuit of knowledge for the sake of knowledge is available, I'd totally run with it.
This is a link to my group 2 recruitment. These two groups will be my only games I will run until they are complete. We can move the characters over to the other recruitment thread that will be in group 2.
Evil characters will be allowed without prejudice in the group 2 recruitment, but will not be considered here.
Let us say group 1 is the good guys, and group 2 are not the good guys.
Dotting :)
Dwarf Paladin of Torag, Dotting
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Hey GM, do you mind posting the build rules in the Campaign info tab?
Strange - my detailed post from earlier seems to have blanked... Just stellar...
Adam I'll reply again in a PM on our characters.
Strange - my detailed post from earlier seems to have blanked... Just stellar...
Adam I'll reply again in a PM on our characters.
Strange, it even left the time stamp. I've had times I forgot to 'Submit' but I've never noticed a blank post before.
Proper weird like.
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<waves to familiar faces>
Was going to apply with a half-orc fighter (Dirty Fighter) , but then noticed that i could also apply the lore warden archetype. Debating how that would work out story/background wise, so may just go with the dirty fighter. We'll see...
GM, I didn't see a deadline stated. Sorry if I missed it.
Let’s set a soft deadline of Jan 30 — I’ll update some recruit info in campaign tab. Still relearning edit campaign.
<waves to familiar faces>
<waves back>
I have decided to take Adam, hustonj, Robert Henry and Black Dow to fill 4 of the 6 slots in Group 1. They are very well known by me, and I thought it would be best to make that known ASAP. I have been in recruitments I felt were already decided, and I didn’t want to pull a long drawn out process where everyone could say afterward “he just picked his friends”.
That leaves 2 slots in the good guys group and 4 slots in the not good guys group up for grabs. I will be selecting pinvendor and Elfriede for group 2 as they have a solid posting history and are responsible for the group 2 theme.
In group 1 it is looking like two oracles, a bard, and a martial Aldori sword dex build. That said, the group is diverse enough that any characters will be considered. Yes, I would add a third oracle if the character is good. Theory says the primary need is a primary arcane spellcaster, but as group 2 is breaking some new kingmaker ground, we can break some ground here.
In college we attempted the Sinister Secret of Saltmarsh with all halfling thieves. Looking back a balanced party would have been more effective, but would not have had near the fun.
Have fun, all! ^^
Have fun, all! ^^
Don't throw the towel in yet Kobold Catgirl, it looks like we still have two slots to fill!
Still have that 'soft deadline' of Jan 30th to find two more 'good guys' and for me to decide exactly what my martial aldori sword dex build will look like.
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I didn’t pick Adam because I saw him organizing applicants in another thread and was too lazy to do it myself.
And, please continue to apply. If you have a good character I may ask you to move to the other thread and play. They are very inclusive not good guys!!
For this recruitment I rewarded early participation in the recruitment thread. Not saying it will work with every GM, but I would recommend it.
I am trying to shamelessly pressure DM Camris to let me in his Starfinder game because I stayed through his Carrion Crown game till the end. I even post in his recruitment with the avatar I used.
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Oops, I did miss that! That said, I honestly don't think I have the brainpower to go back to PF1 at the moment. I just like watching these threads and seeing the PCs people come up with. X3
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Just a slight correction to the current table 1 party makeup, it's an oracle, an inquisitor, a bard, and a wanna-be Aldori Swordlord (Sorry RH, you're character ain't there yet. :P )
Amelia Coin (the oracle) and Emre (the inquisitor) are Abadarians that work together as a team. Shared heritage and some as yet unspecified event lead them to going all the way out to Brevoy.
Not sure what hustonj's bard is going to be like yet.
Robert Henry is playing the bastard son of a noble and gunning for Aldori Swordlord as a prestige class.
Amelia is going to be a buffer and healer in combat. She's got the Lore Mystery and the Covetous curse, which should make things fun. The plan is to have her be a walking encyclopedia and either be the face or be the backup face.
We could use some arcane boom and some muscle in the party, just from what I can see.
Thanks for the update. I think with this new information I am going to withdraw as I have no desire to play with/in an evil group and Thom probably isn’t good enough for the good group.
Good gaming.
No problem Tom— I thought neutral types would fit in either group, but thanks for the interest.
I need to learn to tell the difference between oracle and inquisitor.
Wilderness skills? Full Disable Device? Muscle? Arcane? Nothing's required, but those are all obvious holes in our capabilities.
Just, uh, throwing out there that Remis has Skill Focus (Nature) and at level 2 can use inspiration on Acrobatics, Climb, Fly, Ride, Stealth, Survival, and Swim checks without expending a use of inspiration.
Plus the alchemist formulae list, dog and a horse!
I've also updated his statblock because I realized I had 1 too many skill points.
I just updated HeroLab so will peruse the options today. Thinking about either an Ex-Gladiator Human Barbarian, or some kind of spooky, angry arcane spellcaster.
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I just updated HeroLab so will peruse the options today. Thinking about either an Ex-Gladiator Human Barbarian, or some kind of spooky, angry arcane spellcaster.
Are we voting? I always like my angry arcane spellcasters spooky....
Finished the character stat wise if there is still room.
Maria is an Evangelical Cleric of Shelyn, hoping to get a charter so that she can continue her preaching to a wider audience and bring about a community of artists dedicated to her goddess. She believes she'd be valuable as a cartographer and map maker.
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Dusk Elf Magus incoming
Added members of the Lebeda family that Drektan is familiar with/to.
Added motivation for them to want to throw him afield at the moment.
Adjusted the background to at least mention these relationships/events. Didn't pull the last paragraph (it doesn't fit where we're starting or his actual situation at the moment) because, well, I'm hedging my bets for needing to restore the story later.
Okay, moved a skill point and added a background, personality, and appearance.
As I understand things, this is how Emre and Amelia are related and how they get roped into this.
- Emre and Amelia are half-sisters. Different mothers, same father.
- Their father is a bit of a dead beat from House Lebeda or some other house that is closely allied with House Lebeda.
- They were up and coming talent among the bankers of Abadar, but then The Incident happened that got them voluntold to head to Brevoy.
- While preparing for the trip, they found out about an opportunity that could help them rebuild their reputations, which lead them to volunteering to help House Lebeda.
I think that's everything that Black Dow and I have agreed on. BD, let me know if I missed anything or got something wrong. I don't think we ever decided where we were from. I was thinking Absolom or Taldor, possibly Oppara.
Black Dow, I've got Amelia's background up in her profile, do you mind giving it a read and seeing if there's anything that needs changing or doesn't fit with what you had in mind?
That does sound good. I'll wait for Emre's input before I say yay or nay on that. I'm gonna need to read what you wrote, if for no other reason than to appreciate the work you put in.
Amelia's 22 years old, and I think Emre would be about the same age. Depending on how old the heir of the family is, this could result in some hilarity ensuing.
"Great aunt?! But you're older than I am!"
Time is getting away from me - going to have to drop out. Thanks for engaging with me on my questions and good luck to all in the game!