GM Harrow’s Curse of the Crimson Throne - AE

Game Master GM Harrow

It's a fun post to read. I'm tempted to have Audria see if she can pick up Pockets and carry him, but I'm not sure if she'd notice the cat's distress, realistically speaking.

I imagine it's as noticable as any cat. If not a little more.

Sorry for disappearing. Wife made me go to urgent care when my eyelid got swollen. Spent the night with warm compresses and antibiotic ointment treatments. The eye is fine, don’t worry. Just a non-painful stye. Took today off work and spent most of it sleeping in between treatments. Just wanted you to know I wasn’t ghosting you guys.

Hey, it happens. I just figured you were busy. :)

Oof. At least it's getting taken care of.

The universe conspires against me! While I have received a low number of tickets at work today, so far each of them has had ridiculous amounts of time required to complete them hence my continued silence. However, I promise that before 12:00am AZ MT tonight, I will finish all of my planned posts that have been building up.

I'm sincerely sorry I have been slowing us down after my big speech about increasing the rate of posting.

No worries. It happens. I think if we were at a place where we could play off each other's characters, that'd help with the posting rate. After all, we are all finding out new and interesting things about each others' characters.

My pre-order of the latest version of the Harrow Deck arrived today. Pretty slick. Could easily be mistaken for an actual tarot deck (well, I guess an oracle deck, really) with its unusual and interpretive art relative to the name given each card.

Down to the wire, but I pulled it off!

To be fair to Dal and his player, he did have Jessica teasing him around the same time or shortly thereafter.

So, between this and his discomfort, I was leaning into Dal's not exactly firing on all cylinders atm.

I'm working on a post at the moment, but I realized that I never really went into what Jessica knows about Audria and Eliana. I figure she knows they joined the Church of Shelyn a couple of years ago and that they lived on the streets before that, but probably doesn't know that they were once two of Lamm's Lambs or that Audria was badly beaten before coming to the temple.

Does this work out with what you had in mind, GM?

Also, how much of this do you want to play out? I could write up a conversation between Audria and Jessica if needed.

Audria: You may roleplay whatever you wish. As far as what Jessica does or doesn't know is entirely based on your introduction of her in the Dockside Doxies spoiler, and the presumption that Audria and Eliana get her attention from time to time for the wig making. Her behavior represents a fondness acquired over time and the feeling of ease she has to let down the walls of her persona when alone with them.

Alrighty. That works for me. I'll try to have a post up later tonight.

Kinda waiting on Dal before I post in response to Merula's introductions. I don't know if Audria's got her arms full of cat or not. :D

I'm ready for the stressful days at work to be over, please.

Our receptionist went home sick yesterday so a bunch pf s have been rotating time up front. Somehow, my 45 minute block turned into 2.5 hours.

Fuuuun.

I actually have a funny story this reminds me of. I started work at my last job as a college intern with zero professional phone handling skills. In an ironic twist, the receptionist left for a new job two weeks after I started. Well, as the new guy, I was put on phone duty and, well... Let's just say that I got banned from answering the phones, not because I was rude or anything, but because I kept screwing up transfers and putting people on hold. Two of the highlights are transferring someone to China or something and getting on a three-way conference call without realizing it and repeating what the field tech said to another tech while the client was on the line ("Their machine is utterly devastated.")

Needless to say when we hired a new receptionist a month later, I wound up committing another faux-pas and hugging her I was so happy to see her because I wouldn't be point man on the phones anymore.

So yeah, 22 year-old me was a bit of an idiot. I hope this brought a little cheer to your day, anyway.

@Pippip: I'm leaving it to you to roleplay any discoveries you have with the others.

@Merula: To answer your earlier question, no one of any particular political or notable presence is in the room currently. While having the head of the Acadamae would have been fun, he would not actually be present at this moment (mostly because he's way too powerful and would render the next scene irrelevant if he was here.)

@Audria: As you kind of went ahead and answered for Jessica in your spoiler, aside from having her sympathy, are you looking for her to do more than having sung soothingly at this point in the past?

Lemme go back and try to get back into that headspace. Work and some drama in a recruitment thread have kinda pulled me out of it. I'll try to have an answer for you soon.

Just letting everyone know Tropical Storm Idalia is tracking to hit me directly as a cat 3 hurricane in the next day or so.

I may be out for a short while.

Be praying for you.

Yikes! Stay safe. I'll do my best to keep Pockets alive.

Yikes! Stay safe. I'll do my best to keep Pockets alive.

You'd better not be planning something dastardly for either one of the team floofballs.

Hey GM, I was going to do that rewrite I asked about tonight, but I just don't have the energy. I'm going to work on it as I have time tomorrow and try to post it tomorrow night.

I understand. My own creativity well has been feeling drained. Today has been a very bleh day overall. We'll see how I feel later though. Some inspiration may come forth.

Sorry folks, I do not have the energy to work on a post tonight. I'll try to have something up tomorrow. Didn't get a chance to work on the other thing either.

OK, so I appear to be running into a limitation of PbP format.

I'm trying to give everyone the chance to do what they want, discuss things, and also keep some tension by not specifically telegraphing my intention when scenes could take a dramatic turn. However, this also seems to cause some lag in posts as without knowing what's coming next, you may be expecting something from me while I'm looking to see what you choose to do and and adjust the scene based on it.

I see Abella has been silent for a bit, and while I may be making a bad assumption, I believe it's because she may think this is another prologue scene. I've also noticed some delays between others in the conversations, and I worry that everyone is basically waiting on me while the scene is technically on you, the PCs, and I'm looking for what you're choosing to do with the stimulus I'm giving you at the moment.

I believe we need a way to solve the "Whose turn is it?" dilemma.

The way I see it, we can run things a couple of different ways:

I just wanted to let you all know that I just spoke with the GM in PM and have stated that I will be withdrawing from this game. I wish you all the best and sincerely hope that you are able to continue on having fun without me.

Cheers,
Evie

@Abella:Sorry to see you go. I wish you and yours well, though.

@GM: I think that at some point you have to either prompt your players or trust them to pick up on cues. In some ways, PBP benefits from a more linear style that has things happen in order and where threads are limited and come back together pretty quickly.

If we look at the current scene, we have a few options. First is to see what's going on with Dendren. This would be tricky and probably require some skill checks to do. Second is see if we can smooth over things with Magistrate Druvalia Tuttle. Third is check on the man who's sweating as if he's a necromancer in a room full of paladins. Forth is to continue the conversation with Keyra Endrin.

Seeing as there's a potential fight breaking out, Audria decided to see if she could help with number two.

So, you've laid out the hooks, now you just need to see what we go for.

@Abella: I responded to your message, and I thank you for letting us know.

@Audria: My main goal is to increase participation. Unless I'm misreading the room (been known to happen recently), it feels as if a lot of people are choosing to not engage (a totally valid choice) with random hooks and therefore are expecting me to push forward when said hooks are not bitten or that possibly nobody likes those hooks because they don't obviously indicate an advancement to the story rather than some distracting NPC fluff. As I'd like to find a balance and also make sure everyone has the same expectations, I feel I can no longer "just see what we go for," as if no one verbalizes they are going for none, I'm waiting on my thumbs without any feedback, and you guys are waiting for me to do something interesting. Staring contest ensues, and that's going to kill this game if I let it continue without attempting to calibrate things.

As I have been rather awful seemingly with trying to communicate without offense recently, this is my attempt to initiate a friendly and open discourse on how we signal to one another when we need more from each other.

Okay, I gent wanting more participation, but whose backgrounds have you really engaged with? In this segment you've really only engaged with Merula's and Audria's. Why not have Pip's old charge show up? Why not have someone that recognizes Abella or the family resemblance that she has to Cainabeth? Or for that matter, you could have asked Abella's player about nobles she would have known from Nidal. I've read the AP, at least the original version, and, I do hope this isn't a major spoiler to anyone, this is the everything's starting to go to hell in a handbasket part of the AP. You should be dropping hints that things are not as they should be. Nidalese dignitaries would have been a great way to do that and bring personal stakes to the table.

I've been worried about not including other players for a while, but that's a personal thing, mostly. I'm a player. If you want to be blunt about it, It's not my responsibility to make sure everyone feels included, that's the GM's responsibility. I don't know why exactly Abella left, but I have noticed that you tend to engage more with Merula's background and Audria's background more than anyone else's. It's fine to say you want to strike a balance between pushing players and letting players pick up the hooks, but how many of the players have you laid out hooks for, specifically in this scene?

Then there's Pip's escapades. I know solo adventures can be a drag at the table, but much like there, in a PBP, if both player and GM make it engaging, it becomes a non-factor because the other players are engrossed, and you can still have them do other things. One of my favorite bits of roleplaying was a dinner date between two PCs that could have been summed up in a few sentences, but it was played out and lead to some great development of those and between those characters. I feel that you missed an opportunity here with Pip. Do it in spoilers, do it in a Google Doc. I've seen and done both. If a player hands you a golden opportunity to cause trouble for the PCs and get them engaged, grab it with both hands!

Sometimes players will be slow to respond, sometimes life gets in the way, and sometimes we have to step back and take a deep breath because we don't have the energy. That's the case here. I want to redo that conversation between Audria and Jessica because I'm not happy with it, but there's a part of me that wishes that you'd decided to play it out with me instead. I think it would be better and would add something to the story we are telling.

And perhaps that's part of the problem. This is a game, one that has a narrative focus, but a game nonetheless. This is supposed to be fun, and from what I have seen and heard, some of the players aren't having fun. As a GM, at least in my opinion, your job is to makes sure everyone is having fun. Sometimes that may lead to people leaving because their playstyles don't match up with everyone else's, but in general, at least here on the boards, it's pretty easy to make sure people have fun. If nothing else, spin an entertaining yarn where the dice decide the whims of fate.

I realize that you have gamed longer than I have. You've been on the boards longer than I have, but by far the largest portion of my gaming has been on the boards here. I have as many post under my GM alias as you do in total. Almost all of my 30k posts have been here in the online campaign section of the forum. I do not say this to brag, but to bring some weight to my advice to you.

In Painlord's Guide to PBP GMing he lists Commandment 0 as finish what you start. I'd like to add to that and say that Commandment 0.1 is engage your players.

If you haven't read that guide, by the way, I highly recommend that you do. I have and I'll read it again because the next game I run I want to be awesome and to finish it.

So, you want your players to participate. That's great! A slowing pace is death to a PBP game, after all. How are you engaging with their character's backgrounds and stories? So far, I've only seen you really engage with two of our characters on anything beyond a superficial level. Yes, there was Garrett's family, but you demanded his player pick up the pace or leave. But who else beyond Cinnabar's and my characters?

This may come off as harsh, and I apologize if it does, but the thing I'm trying to hammer home is that you say that you want us to participate, but have you really given anyone besides myself and Cinnabar incentive to?

The answer seems to be no.

@AdamWarnock: There's a lot of accusation in that post and sadly most isn't warranted.

One of the complaints Abella made was not having the time (and possibly the desire) to keep up with all of the "walls of text" and all the many conversations with the NPCs. She indicated a while back she's not as interested in producing the larger amount of creative writing you and Cinnabar have shown and wanted more specific and focused post requests and less free form. While she did not provide a direct reason for choosing to leave, a certain amount of dissatisfaction regarding all of the NPC interactions instead of getting on with the story was at the heart of her message. So, the exact opposite of what you're accusing me. I tried to explain that Open World RPG Korvosa is exactly what this section of the AP offers, and we had now reached the end of that, but she still chose to bow out.

Neither her nor Pip nor Dal offered any NPCs to be used for interaction in this section, and as this was (again) an optional choice, I chose to respect that by not conjuring up a random NPC without their implied consent. I asked, they did not respond, and I abided by that non-verbalized decision.

In prior communication Pip had expressed a concern to me regarding not having played in a game prior to this one where players such as Cinnabar, yourself, and even Abella provided long interesting narrations and wasn't sure he belonged. I reassured him that such posts were not required, and even when I've offered and asked about NPCs such as trying to put a name to the family for whom Pip used to work, he chose to keep this confidential insisting Pip is just here with this group now.

I'm not intentionally excluding Pip or Abella from these developments, I'm honoring their current wishes, stated or implied.

As you pointed out, this is the precipice from which the game descends into its true form. All my request in the prior posts is about is to improve the communication we have between us, so there are less misunderstandings and moments of silence which cause people to feel confused or uncertain and certainly not having to feel defensive about who should or shouldn't have been posting next.

In the current scene, what you all decide as a group to do next will greatly affect the outcome, and this is literally the ticket with which you use to board the Adventure Path Railroad because from here on out, the options from which you will be able to choose will largely be assumed to go down a single track. So for once, the random choices and conversation you're choosing to make is leading to more than just long-winded posts.

This is why I wanted to discuss a better way to communicate important moments without telling you "these are important moments."

I want to redo that conversation between Audria and Jessica because I'm not happy with it, but there's a part of me that wishes that you'd decided to play it out with me instead. I think it would be better and would add something to the story we are telling.

I'm addressing this separately because I am really confused by it. You wish I had decided...instead?

When exactly was I given the choice? You wrote a huge dialogue and chose to give Jessica's answers for her without even offering to let me be involved. I would certainly have played it out with you, but given the conversation pretty much ended within your self-contained post, I did not have a clue what else you wanted. I even asked you about it here in the discussion in case you did want something more. I left that entirely in your hands.

AdamWarnock wrote:

I want to redo that conversation between Audria and Jessica because I'm not happy with it, but there's a part of me that wishes that you'd decided to play it out with me instead. I think it would be better and would add something to the story we are telling.

I'm addressing this separately because I am really confused by it. You wish I had decided...instead?

When exactly was I given the choice? You wrote a huge dialogue and chose to give Jessica's answers for her without even offering to let me be involved. I would certainly have played it out with you, but given the conversation pretty much ended within your self-contained post, I did not have a clue what else you wanted. I even asked you about it here in the discussion in case you did want something more. I left that entirely in your hands.

Addressing this one first since it's quicker. I asked right here.

Maybe I didn't phrase it in a way that made it clear, but when I was asking if you wanted to play it out, I was asking if you wanted to play Jessica and have this be less of a creative writing piece and more a collaboration between us.

Again, I’m confused. My response did not indicate that I wouldn’t roleplay anything out. I merely commented that your NPC knows what you want her to know about your PC and her backstory. I made no assumptions aside from your background profile states a point in time that Jessica and Audria met. I merely reiterated that I assume Jessica knows Audria as of that point in time. Anything that came prior would require you to indicate that Audria told Jessica.

Just like you telling us you worked at a reception desk for a while. I only know because you told us. :P

Hm. A lot has happened since I checked in this morning.

Abella: Sorry to hear you're leaving. It's been fun gaming with you and I wish you all the best.

GM: Of the specific options you describe in the first question you asked, my preference is 2 > 1 >>> 3. I don't think 3 would really solve anything that has been slowing the game down.

If you're asking for more general open feedback on how to increase engagement/participation/momentum, here's what I would say. The game does seem to have bogged down a lot lately. Partly it has been due to RL issues for both the GM and Dal, which are unavoidable sometimes.

But... and please read this with no judgement at all: For the past 12 RL days we have been sitting in this waiting room. We were officially told to wait, and so we were waiting, for some NPC to tell us it's our turn to be tested. Until today, the only obvious things to do were: a) talking amongst ourselves - which we did for a while - or b) chatting with an NPC only Merula has any connection to, or c) interfering in an unpleasant conversation that none of us including Merula would have any IC reason or desire to get in the middle of. Pip snuck off and explored briefly, but again, because we are supposed to be waiting our turn here, the rest of the party has no IC reason or ability to do that, or to now sneak off and do something involving Dendren.

I know that you asked Dal, Pippip, Abella, and Merula for NPCs that they would know and that might be in this room, and the first three did not offer any, and that was why they had no one from their backgrounds to provide hooks or talk to. Fair enough. Pip found something else interesting to do, and more power to him. Dal was sticking with chatting with the other PCs and otherwise checked out. But Abella had been open about wanting the game to move faster and have action and the plot develop our character relationships and personalities, rather than doing long solo writing sections or just chatting with NPCs or other PCs. I want this too; although I have no problem creating and naming some relevant NPCs on request, choosing a couple of them to be here and describing what they are doing on request, and interacting with them to add some color, that is just filler as far as I know, and it probably isn't interesting to anyone but me.

So, in that situation, I really think you should err on the side of quickly moving us forward with events and plot developments that the whole party must react to - however you want to do it. Go ahead and put hard limits on how long you'll wait for responses if that helps keep us moving at a reasonable clip; the alternative is stalling out like this, and people who don't check in for a few days for RL reasons can catch up when they get back. Don't be afraid to tell us OOC what our options are, what you are looking for from us, or if something is important, and definitely don't sit around waiting for us to be done with RP. We can finish it in spoilers if we need to.

As players, we can't be the ones driving the action forward. That is the GM's job. That's also the point of the story we are all telling being an adventure path rather than a freeform roleplaying exercise.

Re: the Jessica conversation, I think I see the miscommunication. When Audria said, "Also, how much of this do you want to play out? I could write up a conversation between Audria and Jessica if needed," and you replied, "You may roleplay whatever you wish," without directly answering her question, that really sounds like you're saying *Audria* is responsible for any further RP conversation between Audria and Jessica. I completely understand why Audria would have taken it that way, anyway.

There's a lot of accusation in that post and sadly most isn't warranted.

I happen to disagree on both counts. I did acknowledge that I may come off a bit harsh in that post, but really the only thing I'm accusing you of, if I'm accusing you of anything, is not providing the right incentives to your players to interact with the game. And if you're having issues with some players doing that, then I don't think saying so is unwarranted, indeed I'd argue that it's self-evident if that is the case. The questions were rhetorical and meant to help me make a point, not accuse you of anything.

One of the complaints Abella made was not having the time (and possibly the desire) to keep up with all of the "walls of text" and all the many conversations with the NPCs.

This is a totally valid position, and now that you've brought this up, I have noticed that you tend to ask for these at times. The dream sequences for one example and the kerfluffle the night before the current in-game day for another. I don't mind it, but then again I live alone and am the same guy that will bang out a 20,000 word backstory for a character. Part of the issue is probably that you have rewarded players who do bang those out with harrow points, which is another way of saying that you punish the players who didn't. And also to be fair, there have been a number of conversations between a PC and an NPC without any relevance to the plot of the AP, at least as written. I'm guilty of indulging in this as much as anyone, but Abella has a point and as I said, I was concerned about not including all of the players.

She indicated a while back she's not as interested in the larger amount of creative writing you and Cinnabar have shown and wanted more specific and focused post requests and less free form.

I can't speak for Cinnabar, but I would have been okay if you did go that route. In fact, letting us indulge in our creative whims while moving the story forward would have probably been enough for us. I know I have a lot of NPCs and I seem to come up with more at the drop of a hat. I'm a writer and I GM, it's something of both a curse and a talent. That doesn't mean that I'll engage with all of them to the same degree or that they'll have the same impact on the story. They are there to fill a need and be there in case they can fill a role without adding yet more names to the roster. I am prone to overdoing it, which is why I wasn't upset when you reigned me in. I know have that tendency and I appreciate the nudge when I go too far.

The thing is, though, I'm not the player you should be gaging everyone else by. I am not a hard man to please. I am quite capable of entertaining myself and only need a prompt to wax poetic with a loquaciousness that would make any of laconic bent shiver just to glimpse the monument of prose I can and have written. Give me a hook and I'll veritably impale myself on it.

What Abella's player posted as far as what they wanted shows that you weren't engaging them. That's what I'm talking about. They wanted to move the story forward and we really haven't. I know you were setting things up, but at the same time we haven't done much in the way of advancing the story. In a way, the party was running in place while some characters were moving ahead with personal stories. That can be very much not fun for the characters who aren't moving their stories. Again, that points to an engagement issue.

While she did not provide a direct reason for choosing to leave, a certain amount of dissatisfaction regarding all of the NPC interactions instead of getting on with the story was at the heart of her message. So, the exact opposite of what you're accusing me. I tried to explain that Open World RPG Korvosa is exactly what this section of the AP offers, and we had now reached the end of that, but she still chose to bow out.

Actually, no, this is exactly what I am saying is the problem. You're not engaging the players. That doesn't look the same for every player even in a group like this. I know I used RP examples, but I'm a banter and story junkie and that's what came to mind first. Abella's player was asking for something more focused on the party and less on the NPCs. Again, I'm guilty as charged of indulging in this.

It's late, I really should be in bed, so I don't really have the mental energy to come up an example of how you could have handled this other than saying "don't do a sandbox." Sandboxes don't do well in PBP for a reason, namely it's hard to keep up momentum.

And just pointing this out, but if you read or listen to a lot of r/RPGHorrorStories, you see a pattern where the GM promises to get to the good part soon, or next, or right after this. Please, do not get this twisted. I am not saying that this game is a horror story. I am saying that you're not really helping your case with that last line there.

Neither her nor Pip nor Dal offered any NPCs to be used for interaction in this section, and as this was (again) an optional choice, I chose to respect that by not conjuring up a random NPC without their implied consent. I asked, they did not respond, and I abided by that non-verbalized decision.

Okay, you're either not getting what I'm saying here or being deliberately obtuse. I'm going to assume the former. I pointed out that when Pip went off on his own, you could have engaged with that and brought him more into the game. More skill checks, more interactions to find out stuff, give that whole section some life. Instead you just kinda glossed over it. That has nothing to do with NPCs. When Dal voiced his disdain next to some bloody hellknights, that was a missed opportunity to engage his player and have the hellknights demand to know why he was giving lèse-majesté or voicing potentially treasonous ideas. You could have used that to drive home how ruthless and tyrannical the hellknights can be.

As a tip, next time you want to work in NPCs from a characters past, look at a character's background. If you ask them about one thing and they don't engage, move onto the next thing. Look for ways to incorporate those NPCs and background elements into the story. Replace official ones with ones that fit pretty well if you're worried about character bloat. Don't just assume that we wouldn't be interested in something just because we didn't give consent, or whatever. If you want it, ask us, but there's an unspoken understanding in TTRPGs that if it gets put into a character's background, it's fair game for the GM to bring up. Again, it's about giving players incentives to engage in the game. It's about engaging your players.

In prior communication Pip had expressed a concern to me regarding not having played in a game prior to this one where players such as Cinnabar, yourself, and even Abella provided long interesting narrations and wasn't sure he belonged. I reassured him that such posts were not required, and even when I've offered and asked about NPCs such as trying to put a name to the family for whom Pip used to work, he chose to keep this confidential insisting Pip is just here with this group now.

And that's fine, but you also seem to keep missing the point here. Pip gave you a golden opportunity to bring him into the game in a way that required no NPCs, no walls of text, no consent about NPCs. He went off on his own, giving you an opportunity to get him to roll some dice and play off his actions. That was what I meant by a missed opportunity to engage your players.

I'm a little surprised to hear that, though. Pip's player has GM'd games I was in a couple of times and I've met him in real life. I thought he knew what my playstyle was, even if he hasn't been exposed to my predilection for waxing loquacious at times. That still doesn't change my point, however.

I'm not intentionally excluding Pip or Abella from these developments, I'm honoring their current wishes, stated or implied.

No, I didn't think it was intentional. If I did, I'd be sending you a PM asking you to make me as inactive and resigning from the game. As I've said, it looks to me that you have a failure to engage your players.

As you pointed out, this is the precipice from which the game descends into its true form. All my request in the prior posts is about is to improve the communication we have between us, so there are less misunderstandings and moments of silence which cause people to feel confused or uncertain and certainly not having to feel defensive about who should or shouldn't have been posting next.

In the current scene, what you all decide as a group to do next will greatly affect the outcome, and this is literally the ticket with which you use to board the Adventure Path Railroad because from here on out, the options from which you will be able to choose will largely be assumed to go down a single track. So for once, the random choices and conversation you're choosing to make is leading to more than just long-winded posts.

This is why I wanted to discuss a better way to communicate important moments without telling you "these are important moments."

I think part of the problem is how you're looking at this. You see this as this great big moment, a culmination of events and peoples that will shape the narrative going forward. The issue is we're not privy to your notes. You have to telegraph this. You have to railroad us a bit into interacting with the people you know will wind up playing a huge role in how this plays out based on how we interact with them. Up until you made this post, I wasn't even aware that this could have huge repercussions to how the game plays out. I was just going Magistrate Druvalia Tuttle to see what would happen. I figured it might move things forward. I also figured it'd be a great way to see what happens when a waif with a talking thrush on her shoulder and carrying a cat comes up to a major player in Korvosa's politics even if it didn't move anything forward.

Sometimes you have to have the NPCs come engage the PCs. This is probably one of those times where that's the case.

As I've said, the issue you seem to be having is engaging your players. That doesn't require having a list of NPCs or throwing the entire Dramatis Personae from their background at them. You just need to see what/who they interact with and use that draw them into the game. Pip's escapade into the servants' chambers was one opportunity. Introducing some Nidalese nobles that Abella knew (after asking her player for names and seeing what they thought of the idea) could have been another. Having the Hellknights take Umbrage at Dalmano's words is a third that could have been.

When the PC's do something and it causes the world to react players are more likely to be engaged in the game. I get that you're worried about how to communicate important plot points and potential places where the narrative can change tacks. The only solutions I have is to be obvious about it or weave them into the story in a way that gives the players a chance to cotton to the fact that something major is coming up.

The bigger issue, I think, is that you only seem to be engaging two of us, instead of all five, now four, of us. If a player doesn't feel their voice is being heard or that their actions aren't doing anything to affect the game, then they're going to quit because the game isn't fun and posting becomes more of a chore.

I get how I can come across as accusatory, but I don't think what I have said is unwarranted, or even unfair. I'm trying to point out what I see as an issue, one that was brought into focus by Abella's departure and your response to my initial reply to your concerns. I still think that if you want this to not feel like a video game, your best bet is to let us engage with the hooks, and if we don't, move things along. If you're unsure whether to move or not, ask if anyone was planning on posting something or if we're stuck. We've got four potential hooks here. I've picked one to engage with. Your job now is to figure out how to get the other three players engaged.

Again, I’m confused. My response did not indicate that I wouldn’t roleplay anything out. I merely commented that your NPC knows what you want her to know about your PC and her backstory. I made no assumptions aside from your background profile states a point in time that Jessica and Audria met. I merely reiterated that I assume Jessica knows Audria as of that point in time. Anything that came prior would require you to indicate that Audria told Jessica.

Just like you telling us you worked at a reception desk for a while. I only know because you told us. :P

Re: the Jessica conversation, I think I see the miscommunication. When Audria said, "Also, how much of this do you want to play out? I could write up a conversation between Audria and Jessica if needed," and you replied, "You may roleplay whatever you wish," without directly answering her question, that really sounds like you're saying *Audria* is responsible for any further RP conversation between Audria and Jessica. I completely understand why Audria would have taken it that way, anyway.

Pretty much this. It seemed to me that I was responsible for the conversation.

Mar 3, 2023, 12:58 pm

As some of you may or may not know, the next section of Curse of the Crimson Throne is very Open World/sandbox. Aside from the chaos in the city, the players are left to their own devices and choices with a little guidance from the GM.

Truthfully, it's a dangerous place for an adventure module as the choices you make could take us completely out of the written path if none of you bite the bait that could be dangling or make the choices the AP is expecting. Pretty funny place to be taking over as GM, as naturally, I don't have anything yet prepared of my own for looping you back to the main story if you go rogue (assuming that's even the best direction based on your characters' choices/desires). But we'll see what you all do, and I will adjust accordingly.

I provided fair warning.

You say I’m not engaging all the players? We agree; I’m not. But not because I didn’t try. Because most of the players chose not to be involved in what was presented.

Garrett was a non-presence no matter what I tried.

Lina had a personality conflict with Cinnabar in and out of character so she left because she felt disengaged due to it.

Abella never once indicated there was any problem and frequently cited RL for slower posting, so until the blowout when I asked about the posting slowdown, I had no insight. I tried to turn that around and also get the party into the barrel for the starting shot, but possibly because of my RL delays, she felt unheard and chose to leave.

Regarding Pip and his little adventure…I actually considered this a success. I introduced an element (Dendren) and got Pip to engage with the party. I thought this would be a sure fire win as it would get reactions from everyone and discussion going, but…somehow yet again, my attempt to find a non-PC specific NPC hook to engage the group failed.

How many failures does that make for me now? I’m not sure. A lot.

How many hooks got thrown into the wind to try and find a single unifying idea for why your little group stays together and ends up going to see the queen?

Help Garrett decipher the ledger so his father could be freed from prison? Failed

Investigate why Lamm and party were impaled on the docks? Failed

Interest in why a sketchy group was breaking into a dress shop after the party made them important? Failed

Join Shrike on her visit to the Gray to bury Zellara and son’s remains? Only Shrike, but even bigger failure as now the party is split.

Almost unification in finding the lost children? Hit and miss. Interest waxed and waned, and I barely consider this above a “Meh” from most of the team.

When larger scale ideas weren’t working to draw interest, I resorted to light hearted events with NPCs such as Von Heller’s shop in the hopes these kinds of things would draw people out of their shell and the chance for something fun.

Abella: Success
Everyone else: Meh
Shrike: Hated it. Fail

Then there were some of the player driven attempts to engage which other players disregarded or shot down. I won’t go into all of them, but the most notable was Pip expressing interest in the political scene of Korvosa which was almost universally disliked by the other players. I actually liked it and wouldn’t have minded a touch of politics, but it would have been very light as this isn’t Hell’s Rebels or Council of Thieves.

So, AdamWarnock, you are right. I failed to engage all players. Despite my PMs checking in with people at various times; despite attempts in game to figure out just what will get certain people involved; despite trying, I’m being judged for succeeding with two of you.

So let’s go ahead and tally up.

Success at engaging Shrike and Audria? Actually a Fail per the most scathing review of a GM almost universally praised by all of you when I first took over.

Sigh

I guess that’s that. Who could possibly want to continue after such a horrible review. Harsh? No, that post was miles beyond harsh and gave me zero credit for any of things I may have done right.

I hope you can find another GM. I’m out.

@Pinvendor: If you felt that was scathing, then maybe GMing on the internet isn't for you. I tend to be blunt at times, and this is one of those times. I could go through this point by point, but that would seem to be a pointless exercise. I will say this. Engaging you players is not a one time thing. it's a continual process and there are going to be times you feel like you're banging your head against a brick wall. Despite my criticisms, I have enjoyed this game and I am sad to see it end. Most games are lucky to survive one GM departure, and that is one reason we were so happy that you took up the mantle.

What I am not pleased to see is that someone's observations that you don't take criticism well seems to have hit the nail squarely on the head. No I shall not name the person. It was told to me in confidence, and I've already made enough of an ass of myself committing that faux-pas to last me a lifetime.

You may be older than me. You may have far more experience than me when it comes to being a GM, but one thing I learned years ago was that neither age nor experience makes you any wiser or more mature. Perhaps I should have acknowledged the things I felt you did well, but I do not think the criticism I gave was unfair nor unwarranted. If pettiness was something that came easily to me, I would give you an example of harsh and unfair criticism. It doesn't, so I won't. My advice to you is that next time someone points out an issue, gives examples, spends two hours when he really should have been asleep replying to your reply, and has explained what could have been done differently in an attempt to help out, don't act like a petulant child and just give up. Creative endeavors are hard, critique can seem harsh. but how else do we grow if we do not know what is wrong in the first place.

Again, I'm sorry to see you leave, and especially on such a sour note. I wish you luck and pray that you and yours are safe.

Well, I guess I owe everyone left an apology. Intentions hardly matter when the result is you chased off the GM.

At this point I don't know if looking for another GM is going to work. We haven't even made it through part 1 of Book 1 and we've already burned through two GMs. Generally not a good look. I'd offer to take over, but I'm not even sure I could finish book one and I would have to sideline Audria as a PC and figure out what to do with her.

If y'all are up for continuing, I'll post a GM recruitment thread, but at this point... *shrugs*

I take criticism just fine. The problem with your comments are mostly how naive they are. You’re armchair quarterbacking from the position you are right when you aren’t in a lot of things. I’ve made many attempts to engage everyone. I’ve offered opportunities for people to speak up or provide me anything I need to help them stay interested. I can only do and offer so much, but when I get crickets…what else am I supposed to do?

Then your “kind critique” is just a series of statements showing how I have failed as GM entirely. And you’re right. Since the effort I put in went mostly ignored, intentionally or otherwise, I did fail. But I will definitely refute the idea I’m quitting because you scolded me. No, I am dropping out because clearly my subtle style of GMing was not to the liking this group and your super long and detailed explanation of where at every turn “I missed an opportunity” proved that.

Half of the suggestions you made were short-sighted as they are based on your needs as a player and not necessarily the needs of those players. But I won’t claim that I had a better sense of it, because clearly I didn’t.

And that’s why I’m stepping away. If even you who was one of the players who frequently tried to engage with me and the other players can’t see the effort I made to include everyone then clearly what am I doing here? Aside from ruining everyone’s fun that is.

And the irony? All of this started because I tried to open a dialogue on how best to improve our communication. A literal open call for useful criticism, but instead I just received vitriol and recrimination about how I’ve been handling the game. Which again I could have accepted, but your idea of “blunt” is bald-faced accusations supported only by what AdamWarnock thinks is the way to do it.

You should reread Shrike’s post above your own mountain of text. That’s how you provide critique.

I'm not putting this in a private message because I don't have anything to say to either of you that I don't want others to read. I'm very disappointed in how this has gone, obviously. I wish everyone had stepped away and given themselves 48 hours or so after Abella's departure before trying to have a difficult conversation like this one. I think that's what I'll do, and if I still have things to say in a few days, I'll do so. If this is the end of the game, I've enjoyed playing with you all, and wish you all the best.

Well poopydoop. I have a few days dealing with storm prep and aftermath and all hell breaks loose.

I agree with Shrike that we should revisit in a day or two

I have been roleplaying for many years.

This thread has been the best narrative, roleplaying, character development, and immersive storytelling I have seen in on these boards by a large margin. I aspire to write as well as some of you, but I am an appreciative consumer of the sweat that has produced the content I get to read. Being a player, and Pip is trying to be a background player, has just been a bonus.

I have seen "creative friction" from the top of the dramatic craft, and it is a common product of top creative minds together. Vin Diesel and The Rock may never work together again, but pulpy car action fans want more of their collaborations.

I've been mulling it over and I only feel like I have a little bit to add.

1. PbP can be an intimidating form of gaming. Sure, it takes much of a time constraint off from everyone (no need to schedule meetings and whatnot) but it creates its own set of time issues. Knowing when to move on, when to let scenes simmer, etc. It can be extremely difficult to gauge and one person's optimal speed may be seen as too slow or too fast for another. And still others may be happy just to be at the table. I happen to (generally) fall into that category. and unless I feel as I truly cannot keep up or the game is sitting for an abnormally long time, I'm good to keep going. I once left a game that had 7 or 8 players. I would post in the morning and by the time I checked again in the afternoon, there would be 1-2 entire pages I needed to catch up on. It just wasn't for me.

2. I wanted to clarify that I did not provide any NPC for Dal to interact with in the scene because I simply felt it did not makes sense for him to know anyone who might be present. And I was happy to play the fish out of water for the scene.

3. I can't help but feel like some of the blame rests on my shoulders. It can be difficult to push a scene forward when one of your players is absent for an extended period of time, regardless of circumstances. There's a fear of leaving them behind. Especially when they give notice. But how do you keep the game from succumbing to the same fate that thousands of others have if you don't move forward? It's a tough balance to maintain. Maybe things would have gone differently had I clearly stated "Hey, until I'm done with this, just bot me."

Well, I still feel I owe all of you an apology. While I don't think I was wrong to point out what I thought was an issue, I do think I could have worded things more diplomatically, and I did lose my cool a bit. As I said, whatever my intentions, the result is that I wound up chasing off the GM. For that, I am sorry and I hope y'all can forgive me.

That said, I think we need to decide if want to try out luck again and see if someone else would be willing to GM this game. If not, I can request control of the game and mark it inactive. I'd like to continue, but I can also understand if this incident has caused everyone to lose their enthusiasm for it. I'd also understand if you'd like me to step out.

In either case, I've started a recruitment thread for the adventure trilogy that starts with Crypt of the Everflame. You can find it here. I've let the other games I'm in know about it, so I wanted to make sure y'all knew as well.

It's okay, Audria. I've thought about it over the weekend and the holiday, and it seems to me that something like this was inevitable eventually. I know you're starting a new game as GM and that will demand a lot of your focus, but I'm still happy to continue this game if we can find a GM. I'll try to make a post for that in recruitment by this weekend, same as you did when Elfriede left, if no one else does before then. It may come to nothing, but might as well try.

Pinvendor, Audria was rude to you at times in her posts above, but certainly no more so than you have been to me, in public and in private. I swallowed that instead of replying in kind because I accepted it as the price of your GMing. I thought (correctly, it seems) that if I spoke to you as you had to me, you would leave and I would have blown up the game for everyone else. I don't say this because I want you to feel bad or think you "ruined everyone's fun," because that's not true. You're talented and you invested a lot of time and effort in the game. It was obvious you were really trying. But the defensiveness and lack of flexibility were a problem. Abella was clear from the beginning what she needed to be more engaged: to move the plot of the AP forward by returning the brooch. Six months of real time later is long enough to stick around hoping something will change and you can start playing the AP you signed up for. I regret that although I wanted us to be moving faster, I didn't add my voice to hers more strongly to push us forward with plot and action.

Dal, I hope you won't blame yourself. Like I said, I think this had been brewing for a while. For both you and Pip: again, I've really enjoyed playing with you and reading what you wrote, and I was looking forward to getting to know your characters more. If this is the end of this particular game, I hope we see each other around on the forums again.

Happy to stay around.

Loved the writing here as I said.

It's late, but I thought I should at least say that I agree with you, Cinnabar. If you'll have me, I'm more than happy to give this another go. I've been planning on running something for a while, so this unravelling wasn't the prompt for spinning that game up. I've had that itch for months now.

I'm still here.