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Hello! This is the discussion thread for The Dragon's Demand, a 1st edition Pathfinder module for PCs level 1-7. I think the first thing we want to discuss is how we want to handle this campaign and what characters we want to apply credit to for future scenarios.
I know some people in the group are not particularly concerned with PFS credit, but some of us, including myself do want to play games that are Society legal.
This scenario has three chronicle sheets that are each worth 3 experience apiece. The first chronicle is for players 1-3, the second is for players 3-5, and the third is for players 5-7.
There is also a fourth chronicle sheet that can only be applied when a player has gone through the entire module in campaign mode.
Because of that fourth chronicle sheet and *other reasons* I think playing in campaign mode would be the best option. This would allow players to start as a level 1 character and advance organically through the module. Then after the module is complete, you can apply the earned chronicles to your character of choice.
Also, my understanding is that if anyone has been hankering to use a non-PFS legal option; the campaign mode rules would allow for that. If someone has something that they want to play (such as a vanilla summoner) I would be open to it. Let's discuss!
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Don't allow my wishy-washy-ness about PFS credit change the game. I am happy to play along with any set of design/rules/campaign mode. If we all start at 1, we will all end at 4, correct? Three levels in game?
Some character ideas:
I have never played a summoner, chained or unchained. I have always thought about it, but never did it.
I built an urban barbarian 'witch hunter' that I used for a one shot- whom I loved... but he would be a slow starter. I am still open to the concept though.
Otherwise, my "to play" list involves:
Witch
Shaman
Any of the occult classes (I have only played occultist)
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Ok, so this is where it gets confusing. Everyone will start off at level 1, with a brand new character, 150 gp just to keep it simple. Over the campaign your character will rise to level 6 or 7. And then at the end, you will get 4 chronicle sheets total, which you can apply to a PFS character of your choice.
So if you applied this to a level 1 character, it would end up as a level 5 character after all is said and done. Although there is a weird issue here.
The chronicle sheets provide 4 level ups, but there's some weird gaps on the levels. If you apply these to a level 1; you won't be able to apply the third one right away. And the fourth, bonus sheet, can be applied at level 2, 4 or 6. So the optimal thing would be to have a level 2 PFS character sitting around to give the credit to, as they can benefit from applying all four sheets in order. And they would have a lot more money per level than usual too, because the earned gold seems to be based on what the highest level in that tier would make.
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And if it helps, the start of the scenario is that the party have been hired as caravan guards; and end up getting stranded in a small town on the edge of the Verduran Forest in Taldan, close to Galt and Andoran.
And while I think it would be good to play something that is PFS legal so we can continue with the same characters after this module; if you are absolutely dying to play something that's not PFS legal; I would allow it. That includes races, with some exceptions. Namely drow, strix and that gnome with the unpronounceable name.
Sounds great! I also think that campaign mode is better to adjust the difficulty as we are six players and this is for four players, right?
I would like to start at level 1.
Sounds good to me. There are so many characters I want to build. Will have to think about it. Usually play melee dudes so may branch out into something more spellcast-y for this.
Yeah, I think the campaign mode offers a bit more flexibility. Since there are six players (and experienced ones at that), I would like have the freedom to beef up some of the encounters by either putting in an extra minion or two or applying the advanced simple template.
Thanks! That really makes it more enjoyable to be honest! :-D
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This sounds great.
I was in a campaign that died before it started with an eldritch archer character.
I immediately went to make a PFS version of the character only to discover that eldritch archer was not PFS legal.
So, yes, I would like to play an elven eldritch archer. I assume that we are otherwise going with PFS rules (20 point buy, 150 gp...)
If she is a lot of fun, I might use some credit and build a PFS replacement with some combination of myrmidarch magus, arrowsong minstrel and arcane archer.
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Yeah, I think the campaign mode offers a bit more flexibility. Since there are six players (and experienced ones at that), I would like have the freedom to beef up some of the encounters by either putting in an extra minion or two or applying the advanced simple template.Thanks! That really makes it more enjoyable to be honest! :-D
I agree. I often feel like PFS becomes a formality- especially with 6 well built characters. Not that I like PC deaths or anything, but the sense of needing to play a combat well to escape is some of my enjoyment in the game.
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After looking at the build, I think I am going to skip on the urban barbarian.
GM- If you don't mind, I might take you up on the offer to create a "chained" Summoner. I am not sure when I will get another chance to play one. Then, if we decide to keep the band together, I can easily "tweak" them back into an 'unchained' version for continued PFS play.
Here is my eldritch archer.
Been looking at archetypes not normally allowed. Planning on making a sylph Aeromancer. Will stat the character up later today.
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Here goes my concept - a Taldane Sovreign Blade Samurai, dedicated to the metallic dragons of Northern Taldor who have overall gotten a bad wrap over the years.
He wears a bronzed set of plate armor, whose helmet is in the shape of a Falcon and is a generally happy go lucky servitor of justice in a naive dudley do right sort of way. Hes also full on Romantic style of knight with full on chivalrous virtues, a beautiful tenor singing voice and an interest in gardening rose bushes. He always wears a yellow rose in his long golden locks.
Sovreign Blade Samurai lack mounts so expect a defense-oriented melee build with face skills.
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I am liking the character ideas so far. It'll be a strong party.
It has been a busy week, so I haven't had much time to put slides together yet but I have been reading the module and I'm psyched about this one.
I do have a character sheet in the slides, which you can fill out at your leisure, as I still think it'll be a few days before I can start us playing.
Hi GM, I know that you said that we should not use specific races ... namely DROW.
Well, I have a Drow PFS boon and was really struggling with a background for PFS but if you would allow it I would build the Drow character for this campaign?
Maybe some of the players would even be willing to create some past connection so that it is easier to introduce a Drow into a party?
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Drow are an unusual and uncommon race, but I would allow it. I was more wanting to head off someone asking to make a Drow Noble; because that would be ridiculous.
People will react more negativily to a Drow, at least until they prove themselves but that would be true of many races. And there is the light blindness, but that's only a minor impairment, especially since this module is a lot of dungeon crawling.
What are you thinking of for class?
Perhaps Melenthe was working alongside some Lantern Bearers who were hunting down your PC, Noral?
When they found him/her, the Lantern Bearers realised that this drow was not evil (I'll let you decide how that works) and recruited the junior partner to bring the drow into the Pathfinder Society and introduce them to life on the surface.
It makes sense that an elf is best placed to vouch for a drow. If the elf says you're okay, what's the human's problem?
Drow are an unusual and uncommon race, but I would allow it. I was more wanting to head off someone asking to make a Drow Noble; because that would be ridiculous.
People will react more negativily to a Drow, at least until they prove themselves but that would be true of many races. And there is the light blindness, but that's only a minor impairment, especially since this module is a lot of dungeon crawling.
What are you thinking of for class?
Thanks GM. I will send you the boon’s wording and which additional books it opens up.
I am planning a shadow bloodline sorcerer if that is ok?
Perhaps Melenthe was working alongside some Lantern Bearers who were hunting down your PC, Noral?
When they found him/her, the Lantern Bearers realised that this drow was not evil (I'll let you decide how that works) and recruited the junior partner to bring the drow into the Pathfinder Society and introduce them to life on the surface.
It makes sense that an elf is best placed to vouch for a drow. If the elf says you're okay, what's the human's problem?
That would be awesome!! Thanks so much! I would love to flesh out the story and present it to you to see weather this works for you! :-D
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Since the party simply start off as caravan guards (who may or not know each other) and don't necessarily need to have any association with the Pathfinders, you're background is pretty flexible. Guarding a caravan might be one of the few jobs a Drow with few if any social connections could get, so it wouldn't be a stretch to find them with the group.
I do like the idea of some characters already having a connection, though and the Lantern Bearers are a great choice for a group that would be willing to take in a Drow on the run.
Perhaps Melenthe was working alongside some Lantern Bearers who were hunting down your PC, Noral?
When they found him/her, the Lantern Bearers realised that this drow was not evil (I'll let you decide how that works) and recruited the junior partner to bring the drow into the Pathfinder Society and introduce them to life on the surface.
It makes sense that an elf is best placed to vouch for a drow. If the elf says you're okay, what's the human's problem?
That would be awesome!! Thanks so much! I would love to flesh out the story and present it to you to see weather this works for you! :-D
I'm looking forward to it already.
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I just posted the first Gameplay post, so its a good time to introduce your characters. There's going to be a little bit of set up before any dice need to be rolled, so don't worry if you are still working on your character.
Which also means, no reason to roll Diplomacy or Sense Motive when you're talking with the sheriff. There's no challenge here yet, but there is an opportunity to work out your character's personality regarding how they would handle conflict.
As we mentioned before; everyone in the party knows each other at least a little bit, because they have been on this job for about a week as caravan jobs. But if anyone wants to have their characters know each other better that's fine too!
Here is Suizal, the sylph aeromancer arcanist. Still trying to decide on spells. Focusing on air, cold, electricity, and sonic spells. Any suggestions on spells, feats, or traits? I never really play full on casters.
Will dot in tomorrow in the main thread.
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@Ilvaria - No worries! If you are alarmed that the gameplay posts have started; don't be. Its going to be a while before you have to roll any dice. Think of it as if we are in the long-ass cut scene of a video game. It's still a chance to introduce your characters and work out your voice.
In regards to advice on building an arcanist, I think it depends on how much you want to specialize on blasting with elemental spells.
Spell Focus (Evocation) would bump the DC's on your blasts further. You could pick Elemental Focus (Cold) or (Electricity) instead.
If you really want to specialize in a single spell, this trait is essential:
Magical Lineage
There's also nothing wrong with taking Improved Initiative or Toughness. And at a later level you might want to fit in Extra Reservoir or Extra Arcanist Exploit. The hardest thing with arcanist is that they are really starved for feats and they don't get the free ones that wizards get.
If you like metamagic feats, I think this one is really good:
Rime Spell
This one might also be good for your build because it will let you turn any spell into a cold or electricity spell:
Elemental Spell
And for early spells there's Ear-Piercing Scream, Shocking Grasp, Snowball (I'm going to make you use the new version though), and Frostbite. Archives of Nethys has a custom spell search function that lets you search by spell descriptor which is super helpful if you're looking for spells that match one of the elements you're good at using.
I would add that, at level 1, an intelligent casters major contribution to the party is knowledge skills and spellcraft.
They can transform an encounter or an entire dungeon/module/adventure for the party.
Sometimes, it can be easier to stick up on defensive spells and bring your crossbow.
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Just curious...is there going to be a divine spellcaster in the group? Or anyone trained in Disable Device? They are the only real niches that appear to be missing from the group so far. And then I know that Ilvaria Syzrendross is still building there character; but I think there is still someone else who is missing from the group.
BTW, I'm liking the builds I'm seeing so far. A lot of cool stuff I don't know about because I don't usually pay much attention to stuff that isn't PFS legal.
The Spirit Summoner is a pretty cool archetype. Its too bad that you have to give up summon monster, which I think can be even more powerful than your eidolon; but getting a shaman spirit and eventually getting hexes is a fantastic trade off. What's funny is that the Shaman spirit abilities use Charisma so a summoner would actually be much better at using them than the average Shaman.
And I'm not really sure why Eldritch Archer is illegal; but its too bad because its a way better and frankly simpler to use archetype than the Myrmidarch. I guess they get a slightly more than they lose, but I feel like if you took away the arcane bonded bow or had to give up an ability to use it the archetype would be pretty balanced with the basic Magus.
Myrmidarch is more of a switch-hitter and gets a big combat boost from fighter combat training. It’s almost an arcane version of a switch-hitter ranger.
I also don’t understand the exclusion of Eldritch Archer. If I wanted to be an OP archer, this is not the archetype for that. It’s just a way to play arcane archer without grinding 8 levels and then being a weak prestige class.
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Hi GM and Melenthe,
here is the background so far. I tried to include the current lore on the Lantern Bearers.
Would be great to receive feedback and especially hear from Melenthe how the two got together. :-)
Ilvaria of House Syzrendross is the youngest daughter to the matron mother of a minor Drow house in the city of Zirnakaynin. All Drow live in the darkness but the dark secret of House Syzrendross was dangerous - unlike many other Drow houses the Syzrendross did not worship demons but in ages past forged a pact with Hell and worshiped Geryon, the archdevil known as the Source of Lies. House Syzrendross kept this fact carefully hidden for generations as they silently built their power.
But House Syzrendross’s secret was only able to remain undetected for such a long time because of a deal that the archdevil Geryon had made with Sivanah, the patron goddess of illusion magic, tricksters, and those who keep secrets. Sivanah’s minions aided House Syzrendross with a ritual to continue their infernal machinations against the demonic Drow for reasons beyond anybody’s understanding.
As usual for traditionally class-oriented and matriarchal Drow society, the daughters of the house were raised to learn the art of spell-casting. Ilvaria showed early signs of talent in illusion and shadow sorcery and was thus designated by her mother to learn the rituals that the goddess Sivanah demanded them to perform to uphold the deal between Geryon and Sivanah. Ilvaria’s fondness of the arcane rituals of Sivanah grew with each year - with that her belief in her mother’s allegiance to Hell was more and more diminished.
Ilvaria realized that unlike her other sisters she did rarely find joy in the lies and evil scheming to assume positions of leadership and authority in Zirnakaynin. To her Drow culture of seething intrigue and politics was barely acceptable and the knowledge that her family was rising in power through a combination of assassination and treachery left doubts and fear in her heart.
When Ilvaria was almost a hundred years old her family realized that their House faced great danger. Through unknown means the blasphemous machinations of House Syzrendross were revealed to their demonic rivals which led to several Drow houses to move against them. But House Syzrendross was partially prepared and started a counter-attack with the help of devils from Stygia. Nonetheless, the majority of Ilvaria’s family died that day and she was only able to flee Zirnakaynin with three of her sisters with the goal to move to the surface and reunite with followers of Geryon.
But fate was not on the sisters' side because the Elven organization known as the Lantern Bearers learned of an imminent appearance of Drow on the surface and surprised and attacked Ilvaria and her sisters. Ilvaria later learned that the Lantern Bearers direct many of their missions into the Darklands, particularly in fighting against the machinations of the Drow. When the elves searched the bodies of the bleeding and dying sisters after the attack, they found a holy symbol of Sivanah on lvaria that she carried as part of House Syzrendross’ rituals to remain undetected. It was pure luck - or maybe the goddess Sivanah’s plan all along - that one of the Elven Lantern Bearers, Ularon Elisur, was a follower of the goddess of illusion magic and saw his goddess’ holy symbol as a sign to protect the Drow. Ilvaria was the only sister that survived.
The Lantern Bearers learnt quite fast that Ilvaria was only an inexperienced girl but the secrets that she was willing to part with about the Drow city Zirnakaynin and her family as well as Ularon Elisur, the elf that found her, kept her alive. Only a couple of years back no one would have allowed a Drow to survive but the Elven Winter Council’s hard regime was ending and the Lantern Bearers had started to focus on openness and redemption of the Drow race. While the elves still held a majority in the organization and its base of operations remained in Kyonin, also outsiders who sought to further the group’s goals were sometimes allowed to join the ranks of the Lantern Bearers. Because of this development Ularon was allowed to take Ilvaria with him to Iadara in Kyonin and although she was mostly isolated, Ilvaria was able to find some peace and a bond to her goddess Sivanah that she did not know before. Living as a Drow in Kyonin was still not easy and hatred towards her was a feeling that Ilvaria had to learn to accept. Thus, Ilvaria lived mostly in seclusion and under Ularon’s tutelage she advanced her understanding of illusion magic.
After some time Ilvaria developed a new sense of self and started to question everything. Why didn’t the elves also save her sisters? Maybe her sisters could have been redeemed, too!? These thought were hard to endure for the young Drow. On the one hand she was angry and bitter that she was all alone in a world that despised her. On the other hand Ilvaria had seen what her family and the Drow are capable of and understood the elves’ fears. It took some time but eventually Ilvaria started to share the Lantern Bearer’s passion as dedicated soldiers and redeemers that oppose demonic influences or threats from the Darklands.
But Ularon believed that it was too early for Ilvaria to join the Lantern Bearers and that it was time for her to see the surface world with her own eyes and shape her own path. Ilvaria did not understand why Ularon wanted to send her away and maybe she would never have left Iadara if she had not met Melenthe …
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I don’t feel that a good alignment is appropriate for a her based on her background. Do you think true neutral or lawful neutral is more appropriate?
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Just curious...is there going to be a divine spellcaster in the group? Or anyone trained in Disable Device? They are the only real niches that appear to be missing from the group so far. And then I know that Ilvaria Syzrendross is still building there character; but I think there is still someone else who is missing from the group.
Hi GM, I was intending to take the Tattooed Sorcerer archetype. So I can’t help with disable device. But there is an archetype called Seeker which allows to handle traps like a rogue but the archetype normally does not stack with the Tattooed Sorcerer archetype because they both replace eschew materials.
As we are in campaign mode and if you don’t mind I could give up the sorcerer bloodline arcana and the 3rd or even 5th level bloodline spell on top instead of eschew materials and take the Seeker archetype as well to take over the traps role?
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I know that the original summoner was really subject to "breaking"- and so I explicitly wanted to avoid that in Andwise (hence no half-elf, master summoner). Giving up the summoning certainly weakens the class, especially at low levels. But, one of the other classes I considered was shaman (since I had never played one) and seemed like a fun way to partially cross that one off too. Its only major advantage is being able to use the shaman fluff while its eidolon is active. The debuff is a little weak, but there is no save and Andwise has so few actual abilities or spells that he will have plenty of standard actions to spare! I don't get a shaman hex until 4th level so I just have to push through until then.
It wont be for another few levels before Tanssi manages to pull away from an animal companion in terms of combat effectiveness. Until then, Andwise is a 6 spell level sorcerer with nerfed number of spell slots and an AC that dies every time it takes >6 HP of damage.
But, more to you point: I don't have any healing (UMD +8) and no DD.
I like Ilvaria’s back story. That’s really finely balanced and could lead to some compelling moments.
I would go for true neutral: she has rejected her family’s ways, her culture’s ways and is not at ease with woven ways either. Too questioning of laws to be lawful.
As for Melenthe, let’s make them both outcasts but in different ways. Maybe Melenthe is a forlorn who moved to Kyonin as a Lantern Bearer initiate but could never assimilate to elves culture. She could pass immediately in a way that Ilvaria could not but it never took long for elves to make her as forlorn.
Maybe they bonded over snarking at elves customs and backing each other to overcome both overt and covert discrimination?
Ularon, or another figure, decided that they could both be happier and have greater opportunity to develop with a broader experience. Maybe even hoping that experiencing a variety of Avistans cultures would give them a more sympathetic, relative view of Kyonin.
Waddya reckon?
On the other stuff: I like playing clerics but that means I have played plenty.
And glass cannons don’t snoop ahead, sorry.
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Your party is going to have some weaknesses; but that's not the worst thing in the world. It just means that you'll need to lean even more into the tons and tons of arcane magic you'll have at your disposal.
It also looks like there are at least two people in the party with Use Magic Device, so you'll at least have someone who can activate cure wound wands.
Lacking Disable Device might also be painful at times, but with creativity, equipment and magic a clever party can usually work around not having the skill.
I don't really want to modify how any of the archetypes work. I'd just prefer not to. I think you're party is going to be fine; but its good to know what areas you are lacking.
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Just going to respond to Melenthe's comments from Gameplay.
Yeah, the module suggests having the party form this way by leaving them down and out in Belhaim.
Incidentally, this entire module takes place in this small town and there is a lot of detail about the town in the materials. It will come up later, but there are several side quests that are available and one of them is to make the ENTIRE town either love or hate the party. This means talking to every named PC, which literally includes the butcher, the baker and the candlestick maker.
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I am making a few tweaks, and I will have DD covered. I don't have great perception- so someone may need to help me FIND what to disable...
I hadn't taken any traits yet, so I am going to take one that makes DD a class skill, and shift around some ability scores to squeeze out another skill point. DD +6 right now, which isn't great but will have to do. UMD is +8, which is about as good as you can get at level 1.
Haven't completely finished building Suizal, mainly just need to finish picking spells. But I may also play around with my skills a bit. Could also take Disable Device if we need a back up.
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I like Ilvaria’s back story. That’s really finely balanced and could lead to some compelling moments.
I would go for true neutral: she has rejected her family’s ways, her culture’s ways and is not at ease with woven ways either. Too questioning of laws to be lawful.
That makes total sense! So TN!
As for Melenthe, let’s make them both outcasts but in different ways. Maybe Melenthe is a forlorn who moved to Kyonin as a Lantern Bearer initiate but could never assimilate to elves culture. She could pass immediately in a way that Ilvaria could not but it never took long for elves to make her as forlorn.
Maybe they bonded over snarking at elves customs and backing each other to overcome both overt and covert discrimination?
Ularon, or another figure, decided that they could both be happier and have greater opportunity to develop with a broader experience. Maybe even hoping that experiencing a variety of Avistans cultures would give them a more sympathetic, relative view of Kyonin.
Waddya reckon?
WOW! Great! ;-) So we met in Kyonin, and bonded! I really like the "... backing each other to overcome both overt and covert discrimination!" ;-)
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Your party is going to have some weaknesses; but that's not the worst thing in the world. It just means that you'll need to lean even more into the tons and tons of arcane magic you'll have at your disposal.
It also looks like there are at least two people in the party with Use Magic Device, so you'll at least have someone who can activate cure wound wands.
Lacking Disable Device might also be painful at times, but with creativity, equipment and magic a clever party can usually work around not having the skill.
I don't really want to modify how any of the archetypes work. I'd just prefer not to. I think you're party is going to be fine; but its good to know what areas you are lacking.
Absolutely understand! Thanks!
I finalized the character and everything is PFS legal now. See my profile.
I will make an introductory post tomorrow!
Sorry for going AWOL lately.
Work/Life got crazy for a little while.
We had my wife's 40th birthday.
We had a load of other delayed birthday things (here in the UK, lockdown has just been eased).
I was the busiest I have ever been at work: I'm a teacher whose students are all doing end-of-year exams. Due to COVID, the exams were all cancelled and replaced by teacher-assessed-grades. The exam boards did not explain how to gather, evidence and share these grades until very late in the metaphorical day. I have done so much marking and assessment, I've started dreaming about assessment criteria.
I should get back on track with all of my games over the next few days.
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There are two structures in this hill. One is (actually was) an old black tower. That tower recently collapsed, leaving only the remnants of the bottom two floors. The only way in is to climb up to the second floor and take the trapdoor down to the first floor, then into the basement. Basically, the main door is completely blocked by rubble. There were also two dead kobolds discovered in the rubble.
The tower also shared the hill with the wizard Hunclay's manor. Let's say they are on opposite sides of the hill, about a quarter mile away from each other. The only entrance to the manor is the front door, which has the burnt body of a kobold nearby. Melenthe detected a faint abjuration aura on that door, which means a spell effect no higher than level 3.
The baroness is tasking the party with exploring the tower first, because she thinks that Hunclay is more likely to be in the tower. But if the party can get the door of the manor open they could certainly explore that location first. The baroness isn't paying the party to do that though, but it is certainly an option.
Does that clear things up?
Thank you! That's more or less what I had imagined.