Katala could join, but my Acrobatics is only +5? That makes it a 50/50 for success or fail. ??
At level 1, I'd expect our main circus skill to be between 4-7, so don't worry too much about a 50/50 shot. I'd say go for it!
Clarification: each of you roll for your own signature trick and use the skill you chose when making that trick. So Pandir would use Acrobatics for her trick, while Katala would use Arcana for hers.
Regarding odds, you’re both correct. 50/50 is not bad and 60/40 (+7) is probably the best you can get at level 1.
My interpretation of trick failures is that you’re not necessarily fumbling, but that the crowd wasn’t very impressed/entertained. So it’s not like a professional performer is making a fool of themselves on stage and more that people are like “meh, I’ve seen that before.”
Not immediately relevant, but as a reminder: your trick is also supposed to become more intricate as time goes on, so the DC will go up as you level and failure will remain a possibility. Trick progression example: throwing knives to hit a wooden target > throwing knives to hit an apple sitting atop someone's head > throwing knives to hit an apple sitting atop someone's head whilst blindfolded.
At the moment, it seems this is the line-up summary:
Opener
1: Pandir (+5 acrobatics) or Ceija (+7 scam lore)
Build-Up
2: Kinbalis (+8 acrobatics)
3: Dwarves (+10 athletics)
Big Number
4: ?
Grand Finale
5: Flambonis (+7 fortitude)
6: Mordaine (+8 fortitude)
7: Axel (+7 nature)
Remaining performers
* Elizia (+7 intimidation)
* Finch (+6 performance)
* Katala (+7 arcana)
Finch's Performance is actually +7 when doing comedy, due to Virtuosic Performer. She's ready and willing to be the big number.
I stand corrected. Thanks, Finch.
Summary
Opener
1: Pandir (+5 acrobatics) or Ceija (+7 scam lore)
Build-Up
2: Kinbalis (+8 acrobatics)
3: Dwarves (+10 athletics)
Big Number
4: Finch (+7 performance)
Grand Finale
5: Flambonis (+7 fortitude)
6: Mordaine (+8 fortitude)
7: Axel (+7 nature)
Remaining performers
* Elizia (+7 intimidation)
* Katala (+7 arcana)
Oops, sorry. My Discussions tab wasn't showing any new posts.
I'm fine with either me or Pandir going first.
Looks like I'm opening up first. Wish me luck, everyone!
Ok, so here's the more or less final line-up.
Opener
1: Pandir (+5 acrobatics)
Build-Up
2: Kinbalis (+8 acrobatics)
3: Dwarves (+10 athletics)
Big Number
4: Finch (+7 performance)
Grand Finale
5: Flambonis (+7 fortitude)
6: Mordaine (+8 fortitude)
7: Axel (+7 nature)
Remaining performers
* Elizia (+7 intimidation)
* Katala (+7 arcana)
* Ceija (+7 scam lore)
Just re-read the players guide.... It doesn't have much on running the circus.
Is there any way to increase the chance of success for a trick?
Can a character work with the "star" to aid? Or does that increase the chance of failure?
If a trick fails what is the consequence? Is there any way to recover it?
Is there any bonus to following acts if a trick succeeds?
Is there any negative to following acts if a trick fails?
So, I’m posting a more detailed run down of the circus rules. It’s a bit long and most of it is stuff that you don’t absolutely need to know in order to play through the circus bit of the adventure, so feel free to skim or skip it entirely.
—
We are using the simplified circus rules for the moment. I’ve listed them in this post, but the two things to keep in mind are:
1) each trick is one skill check that can either fail or succeed
and
2) your show is a success if you have more successes than failures
Example: a show has seven tricks. If 5 tricks are successful and 2 fail, the show is successful. If 4 tricks fail and 3 succeed, the show is a failure.
—
Now, to answer Katala’s questions, in the simplified circus rules:
Is there any way to increase the chance of success for a trick?
RAW, no. I’m very open to suggestions and creative ideas, though. Say, Katala goes on a search for a illusion spell that mimics water more realistically, making it a side quest of sorts or spending a few days of downtime.
Can a character work with the "star" to aid? Or does that increase the chance of failure?
Yes, you can co-star a trick to Aid another performer. I wouldn’t say that it increases the chance of failure, but you will get in the way if you critically fail, just as in the Aid action.
If a trick fails what is the consequence? Is there any way to recover it?
The consequence is that you have a failed trick. Too many failures and the show itself fails.
Is there any bonus to following acts if a trick succeeds? Is there any negative to following acts if a trick fails?
RAW, no, but I am following homebrew suggestions from other GMs.
Opener
Crit success: lowers the DC of all following tricks by 2
Success: lowers the DC of all following tricks by 1
Failure: none
Crit Failure: raises the DC of all following tricks by 1
Build-up
Both tricks succeed: Big Number DC reduced by 1
One trick succeeds: none
Both tricks fail: Big Number DC increased by 1
Big Number
Both a fail and a success here count twice.
Grand Finale
No special consequences here.
Show Failure and Success
RAW, there are few immediate mechanical consequences for the result of shows, especially in this book. Theoretically you get extra XP if you succeed, but we’re doing milestone levelling, so, yeah.
I do intend to have a few minor sidequests connected to the results, though.
My decision to use the simplified rules is mainly guided by the fact that they definitely make the show more complex, but I’m not convinced they make the show more fun to play, especially in PbP.
I also didn’t want to overwhelm those of us who are still learning PF2.
In short, each trick becomes a round very similar to combat rounds. You have three actions and one reaction, each of which you can use to perform a trick or a few circus-specific actions.
If you are curious, I can put up the rules on the Circus slides.
Thanks! That helps.
No problem!
Also, just realised I had listed Ceija's modifier as +7 instead of the actual value of +3. Result is still the same, though.
Really clever, Ceija. I hope this works.
Agreed. Inspire Courage is not something that will always work outside of combat because I don't want it to be a panacea for every problem, but I'll definitely allow it to work this time.
Sorry, Ceija, but for some reason private messages aren't working for me right now.
Anyway, I think I have another routine idea--I think it's best called the Orc Smash.
The routine's idea is that Grog is introduced to a variety of comical situations that he attempts to resolve with his 'orc smash'. This ranges from a rope knot that is too tightly fixed, balancing a precarious tower of glass cups, and other things where a touch of finesse is clearly needed. His comrades try to use finesse to fix each situation, but their overcomplicated solutions make the matter worse (such as using a machine to untie the knot or controlled pets to hold up the tower of glass)--until he is reluctantly allowed to 'smash' the whole contraption. He smashes, fixing the entire matter in a surprising and unusual way.
Absurdist comedy I think, and it helps utilize props creatively, as well as the employment of illusions.
Rules: Nonlethal damage
Nonlethal damage has changed from PF1: whereas we would track NLD and regular damage separately on the first edition, now it all counts against the same stat.
The main differences between lethal and nonlethal damage are:
- if a creature’s HP is brought to 0 by a lethal attack, they die; if their HP is brought to 0 by a nonlethal attack, they’re just knocked unconscious;
- some creatures are immune to NLD;
- using lethal force in certain situations can have negative effects on the story and those around you. Seeing someone being stabbed is very different from seeing someone being punched.
Since there is no separate tracking of lethal and nonlethal damage, the last blow is particularly important. You can use nonlethal force the whole battle, but if the strike that brings a creature down is lethal, they still die.
How loud is the altercation? Would Ceija even notice it if she's doing Perception checks for tracks and rats, and other clues?
For simplicity's sake, you're all aware of what's happening, though those backstage need to take one round to reach the fight.
Does Pf2e not have total defense?
Not as far as I'm aware (happy to be corrected, though), or at least not as an option available to any character — wouldn't be surprised if some archetypes gave PCs that option.
I'm staying out of the brawl. Not that Finch wouldn't like to partake, but she doesn't have to be in every scene. Also, less bloodshed that way. :P
These are some beefy brawlers.
If we're taking too long (in real time) to succeed, I can roll several rounds worth of Feint/Attack combos until one of us succeeds, GM.
They were quite beefy indeed! Very high HP made higher by being able to rage.
Anyway, this was the mandatory circus performance for this book. How did you find it? And is it something you'd be interested in doing again?
What do we (as characters) gain from doing circus performances? Maybe it would feel more relevant if it was played up more in the telling of the story.
And what about as players? Will it be important in later stories to be accumulating the fame/renown/reputation of putting on successful shows?
I thought the whole thing was fun except that I didn't build my character very well for it.... But that's on me!
I loved this performance. I have no idea what the consequences are, but I'm loving all of this.
What do we (as characters) gain from doing circus performances? Maybe it would feel more relevant if it was played up more in the telling of the story.
And what about as players? Will it be important in later stories to be accumulating the fame/renown/reputation of putting on successful shows?
These are my primary queries, as well. I like the system, but I wonder how it affects the narrative and what the rewards are, mechanically.
Do we get paid? I assume there's an entrance fee.
I'z ere since i have noth'n else ta do but be hunted. I'z stick'n wit' 'da showz.
So, trying to answer your questions. There are aspects of the Circus and its role that are rather unclear even to me (and I’ve read this thing more than a few times), so please let me know if something doesn’t make sense.
Circus rewards RAW
The circus is mostly its own reward. You do the shows because you like the idea of running a circus and the shenanigans that come with it. The overwhelming majority of the mechanics feed right back into the circus: the money you get, for instance, goes to supporting the circus activities and the troupe’s livelihood, so it rarely trickles down to your adventuring life. The only thing that can sometimes have an effect on the rest of the adventure is the circus’ Prestige, but even that is pretty rare.
I think the best way to put it is that Paizo didn’t want to make the circus a mandatory part of the adventure. Meaning, a group that does 10 shows per chapter is not going to be mechanically superior to a group that completely skips non-mandatory performances.
Circus rewards in our game
This means that I need to partly turn the question back at you: what would you want to get from the circus as players and characters?
How would you feel about treating the shows as small sidequests in which you’d have to do things other than the performances themselves? Say, a criminal hires you to steal something from an audience member in exchange for a reward. In practice this idea would work out roughly like this first performance, though a bit more focussed and giving you more time to plan.
@Katala: sorry about that. What do you think we can do to improve this? Are there specific situations you have in mind where you see Katala shining?
No, it's fine. And now that I know more about it I can work to improve skills that will help. It's good to have goals other than just making a character better at casting spells, cracking heads, etc....
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Well, if the only rewards for performances are more performances, a successful one should at least work towards the success of the subsequent ones. Based on previous APs, I was sort of expecting a system for improving the circus (buying better equipment, training troupe-members, etc.) or even a separate "character sheet" to go along with it—not that I necessarily want things to be that granular, mind you. I get that the circus needs funds to run, but we should at least have a say in how that money gets allocated. Right? Without a mechanical benefit to go along with the system, we might as well just narrate shows without a need for an organised framework (though I suppose it does a good enough job making things run smoothly).
The most logical rewards that would come with more focus on the circus would be plot developments spurred on by the circus itself. I'd be pretty disappointed (and a little surprised) if the circus did not enable us to access scenes or events non-performers are not privy to. It's like the rebellion premise in Council of Thieves; people (including myself) thought that the AP would lead to overthrowing House Thrune, but it went in an entirely different path, which was disappointing and confusing for me.
I think the best way to describe what I want from the circus is options.
If we need to investigate a corrupt noble, we can gather information about what entertains said noble, and structure the next show in his neighborhood that fits his bill--hence allowing us access and semi-free rein in his territory.
In other words, it is sort of like a party member: we invest time and skills into the circus, and it provides us with shelter, contacts, money (if only a little like with the brawl), and opportunities.
I like the idea of the circus being something like a party member, as Grog described.
I stole shamelessly from some back communications with Grog, who basically wrote my whole script, and I think I'd be frustrated by trying to come up with something non-repetitive each time we do a show.
Granted, IRL, the show would be repetitive because it would be new for each audience, but since the actual audience for the humor is just us, I don't want to do a cut/paste each time I do my act. So I'm not real excited about doing the same act over and over, and, at the same time, not having much impact on the story line. Similarly, I'm not excited by making my act harder for no impact.
But, I've often found myself enjoying things once I get past the first couple uncomfortable rounds, so I'm willing to try it a couple more times and see how things unfold, and how they feel later in the story.
@Finch: That’s a good point and you are right: there is a system for managing the circus. It requires the full circus rules, which are as follows, in as clear words as I can make them.
Buckle up, they are a bit meaty. Putting it under spoiler to avoid greeting you with a wall of text.
Full Circus Rules — Management
Instead of tallying successes vs failures, your circus has three main stats: Anticipation, Excitement and Prestige.
Anticipation is generated by promoting your circus. This is mainly done in two ways: spending two days of downtime to advertise the circus yourselves and paid advertisements.
Excitement is generated by successfully performing tricks.
A show is successful if you have more Excitement than Anticipation (the show was even better than advertised) and a failure if you have more Anticipation than Excitement (the show was worse than advertised. A show is critically successful if Anticipation and Excitement are exactly the same.
Every show always at least covers living expenses for everyone. Depending on success, you also get a Payout, which is gold to be used solely on circus stuff. You can buy upgrades both temporary and permanent, pay for advertisements, that sort of thing. I added the list to the circus slides, along with a summary of this post.
Prestige functions as a sort of gateway. There are certain upgrades that you can do or buy only if you have enough Prestige. Each chapter has a max Prestige threshold — there’s only so much fame you can get from performing in a backwater town like Abberton. You gain prestige from performing shows; the more successful a show is, the more prestige you get.
Full Circus Rules — Shows
The show is still organised in 4 acts that are more or less like we have done so far.
Tricks work differently, though; a bit like a combat round.
Every performer gets three actions, the most important of which is Perform a Trick. Though you could spend all three actions to perform, they usually incur MAP — meaning, your second rolls has a -5 penalty and your third roll has a -10 penalty.
On a success, your trick generates Excitement equal to your level; on a critical success, the trick also generates Anticipation (meaning Perform crits can actually make it harder for a show to be successful.)
Once per act, you can also spend an action to Send in the Clowns — this converts a Perform failure into a success and a critical failure into a normal failure.
Full Circus Rules — Signature Tricks
Tricks also get a bit more complex. First of all, they get the traits I mentioned a few weeks ago. These traits can have a few different effects, but usually mean you get a +1 bonus under certain circumstances. For example, if your trick has the Comedy (perform) trait means that whenever you Perform a Trick by rolling Performance you get a +1 on your roll.
If your trick needs a co-star (such as Grog and Ceija), your trick automatically gets the team trait.
If your trick uses a save instead of a skill check, it automatically gets the injury trait. This means that if the performer critically fails their Perform a Trick check, they might get injured and won’t be able to perform for a show or two. Other special events might also force the injury trait on tricks, like the Kinbalis performing without a net.
As you level, your trick will become more complex. Every few levels you will get to add a new trait to your trick. You will also get to pick a second and third skill/save associated with your trick. You don’t incur MAP if you use different skill checks when Performing a Trick.
Full Circus Rules — NPC Tricks
For the most part, NPC tricks work like PC tricks, with one big difference: they never level up. I find it a bit sad, to be honest, but that’s RAW.
Full Circus Rules — Non-Performer Roles
PCs who are not performing in a show can take non-performer roles, each of which grant you certain advantages. If you have a Medic, for example, performers cannot get injured; if you have a Backup Clown you can use the Send in the Clowns action twice per act. Like the traits, there’s loads of these.
———————
Ok, so this is mostly everything.
If you are interested, here’s the link for the full rules (please don’t share it around because it’s watermarked).
What Grog describes is more or less what I had in mind when I mentioned making shows a bit like sidequests. We use the shows as solutions to problems and less as goals in and of themselves.
I also very much agree with Ceija: there's only so many ways we can describe the same tricks before it gets stale. People On The Internet™ (always reliable) agree on that too, with most saying that they eventually stopped doing the circus shows because it became boring after a few times.
Clarification question:
Did we do a matinee show, then start the investigation in the afternoon?
Or did we do an evening show, and a night has passed, and we're starting the investigation the next morning?
It was an evening show; it is now late evening/early night and you only took a short break to treat wounds.
Ok, thanks
When it comes to describing tricks, I think I have an idea.
Each performer makes three distinct tricks with different themes, and before we make a show, each performer chooses one. Each trick can be received better (or worse) depending on the settlement's disposition and current mood.
NPCs each have one trick, or may expand their repertoire and choose their own (rolling behind the scenes). I suspect Axel would defer to any suggestion until he's more confident, and Mordaine would flatly reject any suggestion unless she's browbeaten.
So it's something of a rock-paper-scissors minigame. The DM will give hints, and rolls we make can let us gauge interest, so when we throw our hand, we try to anticipate the Anticipation and satisfy the crowd.
For example, Ceija has the Orc Comedy Show (wordplay and absurdist humor team performance), the Mind-Reading (mystic wowing of the crowd with mysticism roll), and the Musical Piece: March of Cambreadth (inspire courage performance roll). The DM rules that this settlement would appreciate serious performances (as it has been feeling demoralized, was recently raided by orcs, or is more militaristic), and secretly assigns any epic or serious performances a +5 bonus to the roll.
Mordaine's performance (a tense escape from death) and Ceija's Musical Piece both are instant hits, gaining a +5 to the roll.
This particular settlement wouldn't want to see an orc unless it's being beat up, but would very much appreciate the mental image (which can be accompanied by illusions) of soldiers marching to victory, or the tense action of a possibly-drowning woman.
I like that!
I'm a slow thinker, so it will take me a while to mull it over and be able to offer suggestions, but that seems like a good start.
Phew. That is a lot. I don't see any reason to make the performances more granular. Payout and upgrades sound cool, though none of the options look all that interesting. Do you have descriptions for what they actually do? And we seriously can't train up NPC performers? That's super lame. :S
(I do like how a successful promotion [i.e. a high Anticipation score] makes it harder for the performers to live up to the hype. Makes sense, right?)
I like Grog's idea a lot. Having a repertoire of tricks to choose from would at least add the narrative incentive of being able to write up neat fiction, and the mechanical incentive of being able to improve the odds of a successful performance based on the crowd. However, I'd still like to work out the reward cycle.
Yeah, it’s a bit weird how much stuff this is. And I agree that making the performance itself more granular doesn’t really add that much to the system.
I also think anticipation vs excitement mechanics makes a lot of sense, but I have a bit of an issue with the critical success condition. It makes sense mechanically because it can get pretty hard to reach that exact value, but I find it weird when the crit is the equivalent of just meeting expectations, instead of going beyond. Minor thing, though.
About NPC tricks: I also find it super lame, but I think it was a mechanic decision. You generate excitement equal to your level, so having a level 1 act can help when you’re trying to get a critically successful show.
Regarding the effects of the upgrades, you can check the pdf I linked at the end of that post. Prepare to be…whelmed, I guess. Off the top of my head: beer gives you extra excitement but automatically triggers a random event, nets and padded flooring make it harder for performers to get hurt and bigger tents raise the maximum anticipation.
You are right: by default you and your familiar only have an empathic link.
It doesn’t help you now, but you can change your familiar’s abilities whenever you make your daily preparations (so, after you went to sleep and woke up).
We can definitely do something along the lines of what Grog proposed. You’d have a period of getting to know the city and gathering information (which could be a skill challenge where you describe what you do to get info and roll for a relevant skill), then the performance itself which would work more or less as before (tally successes and failures). In some ways, this reminds me of the Infiltration subsystem.
The reward angle is a bit trickier, though. Giving you too much extra stuff could unbalance the game, but giving you too little can be underwhelming, especially when it comes to gold. Some of the loot you’re supposed to get comes from really weird situations, so I could move that to a circus-based reward system, but I need to work out why you somehow end up with a +1 weapon rune as payment for a circus show in some backwater town. Perhaps an eccentric NPC patron-like figure who gives out stuff because that’s what eccentric people do…?
Anyway, we can all take our time to think about this, there's no rush. Also, thanks for the effort you're all putting on it — I know it's quite a lot to go through and really appreciate it.
Maybe we work so well we attract Patrons.
-A rich noble with too much money on his hands makes a generous donation.
- Ceija's fortune telling pays off for a lucky customer and she donates some of her winnings.
- Someone has beef with Mistress Dusklight and he gives a reminder to go get her.
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Finally scribbled a drawing of Pandir. Planning to do a whole lot of edits with this.
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I need to work out why you somehow end up with a +1 weapon rune as payment for a circus show in some backwater town.
The town itself may have a lost-and-found closet that the trash collectors use for possibly valuable stuff that the town trades when whatever periodic merchants/tinkers/caravans pass through.
Or people passing through may have paid fines using such 'valuable stuff'. Or some poor anonymous adventurer may have died from their wounds, and no one knew what to do with their 'valuable stuff' so it reverts to the town infrastructure fund.
Roads and bridges always need repair. A prudent village funds as much of that as possible out of other people's money.
The local leader appreciates how the circus has improved the civic spirit.
Regarding the effects of the upgrades, you can check the pdf I linked at the end of that post. Prepare to be…whelmed, I guess. Off the top of my head: beer gives you extra excitement but automatically triggers a random event, nets and padded flooring make it harder for performers to get hurt and bigger tents raise the maximum anticipation.
Huh, it seems I completely glossed over the PDF on my first read-through. And yeah, I'm decidedly 'whelmed. With our current Prestige, I don't think we could buy anything except netting, watermarked tickets, and beer. I'd certainly like having the option to improve on the circus (even if the options are a bit mundane), but it seems we won't be able to buy a lot of this stuff for some time—almost as if the system has been designed to be used in a longer campaign. :P
Finally scribbled a drawing of Pandir. Planning to do a whole lot of edits with this.
Aww, she's like a cute little Pokémon! :3
Ok, wow, what a first round.
A couple of rules explainers. You are not facing a creature, but a hazard.
Rules: Hazards
Hazard is the generic term for anything that works more or less like a trap in a dungeon, though it can also refer environmental hazards, haunts and all sorts of other things — there is one PFS scenario where a bar brawl is treated like a complex hazard that can be disabled with diplomacy, for instance.
Rules: Hazards — Triggers
All hazards have a trigger, the most common of which is just getting close enough.
Once the hazard has been triggered, it usually gets a reaction (e.g. a spear trap makes a strike against the PC who triggered it). If the hazard is a simple hazard, that’s all it gets to do.
If the hazard is a complex hazard, we enter initiative and the hazard follows a routine until it is disabled. This routine varies a lot — a quicksand gets free actions to pull people down, a “Tesla coil” gets X actions to shoot lightning against creatures within its range, etc.
Rules: Hazards — Detection
Hazard detection varies a bit on the hazard itself: some can be detected by anyone who approaches it (e.g. seeing that a slope is covered in ice before you step on it) and some can only be found if you are actively searching for it and have a minimum proficiency level (e.g. you might only be able to find a trap set by an expert if you have expert perception and are actively looking for traps.
Detect Magic can find some magical hazards, but this only reveals the presence of magic, not that it is a hazard. Many hazards of magical nature can only be found when actively searching, just like non-magical hazards.
Rules: Hazards — Disabling
The jack-of-all-trades is the Disable a Device action from the Thievery skill and it will work against a majority of the hazards you will find.
That said, there’s often other ways of disabling a hazard. A haunt can usually be disabled by someone skilled in Occultism or Religion; a social hazard usually requires Diplomacy or Intimidation; and so on and so forth.
Another tried and true method that you shouldn’t ignore is simply hitting the hazard with the proverbial stick until it’s broken. Not always applicable but sometimes surprisingly effective. Bear in mind, though: attacking a hazard might trigger it.
Example: Pods
The dream pollen pods are a complex hazard. You have triggered them by opening the door, then we entered initiative. Unfortunately, the hazard rolled higher than everyone in the group and went through its routine: making pollen spray attacks against nearby targets. Obviously applicable skills are Thievery or Nature to remove the pods, but attacking them can also work fine.
Rules: Dying
You fall prone and gain the unconscious and dying 1 conditions when you reach 0 HP.
Each round, you get to make a recovery check, which is a flat check DC 10 + your dying condition value.
If you are successful you reduce your dying condition by 1; if you fail you increase it by 1. Double the amount for crits.
If your dying condition reaches 4, you die. If your dying condition is reduced to 0, you are out of immediate danger but unconscious until some time has passed or someone has healed you for at least 1 HP.
Always "fun" when I read the discussion thread and I see a reminder of the dying rules!
*reads gameplay* oh, wow. That's a problem. Welp, wish me luck. ...do we have hero points?
Note to self: In future have the lead character wear a rope so characters in the back can quickly drag him/her back without getting exposed to lethal trap!
So orc ferocity removes the first dying condition?