Please Advise how to Best Use this Weird Battlefield Control Technique

I'm playing a new PFS character, 'Thunderstomp' Ben, who does a weird battlefield control method. Ben is near level 6 & is on the Slow Track. Ben controls the battlefield by first supplying his allies with Featherstep Slippers, then filling the battlefield with Difficult Terrain, then no-save Entangling foes. Foes are typically entangled in difficult terrain, rendering them nearly immobile. He does this all in one combat round. Ben UMDs a Wand of Featherstep or two, in case an ally already has a magical foot slot. Ben owns three pairs of Featherstep Slippers, which represents most of his wealth.

I seek help and advice from the community on how best to use Ben's battlefield control. Not so much tactical help, although that is welcome, as how best to cooperate with other players and help everyone have fun. The problem is, as one player said to me, "what you are doing invalidates about 30% of builds". Upon reflection I see what he means. First I'd better explain, as it might not be obvious.

Imagine a Pathfinder battlefield filled with Difficult Terrain. Unless you fly or have the Featherstep buff you must always pay double movement costs and can never take a 5' step. Now imagine all the PCs have the Featherstep buff, because Ben gives it to everyone. The PCs can 5' step, but enemies can not. A reach build can typically Full Attack at will, foes lacking reach can never full attack in return, and such foes must provoke an AoO to make even a single attack. This situation dramatically magnifies the tactical value of having reach.

Now imagine a PC built to Two Weapon Fight (TWF) using Dex-to-damage. Unless there is some provision for reach this build needs to be adjacent to foes to attack. This makes it difficult for this PC to cooperate with a PC playing a reach build. The reach build wants allies to never end a turn adjacent to a foe, while the TWF Dex-to-damage build wants to be adjacent. Their tactical imperatives are diametrically opposed. This does not make for good teamwork.

If the battle is mobile, with lots of tactical maneuvering, Ben's approach is extremely effective. If the battle is static, where opponents move adjacent then stand still and slug it out, Ben's approach accomplishes very little. This gives an all-team tactical incentive to keep the battle mobile: it's full of win. However, if a PC's combat style is built to be most effective in an adjacent static battle (e.g. TWF) this situation tends to devalue that combat style. It's no fun to devalue other people's fantasy.

In a couple of recent teams, when I saw this dynamic, Ben mostly avoided using his Create Difficult Terrain ability. It would not have helped much, as several PCs wanted to be adjacent to foes, thus eliminating most of the tactical advantages of the Featherstep/Difficult Terrain combination.

With other teams Ben used his battlefield control powers to terrific effect. Just today Ben found himself fighting side by side with a Magus using the Longarm buff. It worked really well, because A) foes usually could not full attack, B) We could always full attack, C) We each got at least one AoO every combat round and, D) Superior mobility let the PCs literally dance circles around the enemy. The ranged combat PCs (a Zen Archer and a Sorcerer) also liked the battlefield configuration. This huge tactical advantage almost certainly made the difference between mission success and Total Party Kill (TPK). It was a very challenging Season 6 scenario, with only four PCs of a level average that just barely forced us to play up to High Tier. I recently expressed my desire for Hard Mode play. Be careful what you wish for ...

Ben has already figured out some ways to elicit teamwork while using his battlefield control prowess. Some examples are: Enlarge Person to give reach, Longarm self-only buff, readied actions, full attack followed by a 5' step. Please suggest others.

I seek advice from the community about how best to play Ben's 'schtick'. Fun games lacking internal party conflict are a priority over tactical advantage. I'm looking for advice on these topics:

* What do you think of this battlefield control technique? Remember that the context is PFS, which ends at level 11. Few foes fly.

* What should Ben do when an ally has a tactical imperative to remain adjacent to foes?

* Are there win-win compromise options? What are they?

* Any other aspect you feel like posting about

* Can you think of a better way to routinely inflict pain and HP damage on allies, during PFS play, and have them thank you for doing so? Too bad Xon-Kuthon doesn't have the Earth Portfolio ... :-)

Thanks for your time and attention.

Flaming sphere and other effects work very well with set up. Maybe that will help those who like it static.

Can you develop a secondary shtick that will help those who want static play? Dazing spells or staggering them works.

While you have him built up to Prestiege into an MT, couldn't you simply have him be a 1 Cleric/X Druid/Sorcerer/Sorcerer/Wizard/Witch?

I would probably play him as a Cleric 1/Druid X and make use of my animal companion to help me with my AoOs. Additionally, this way I would stay as a 3/4ths BAB character. Sure I'd lose Swamp's Grasp, but I'd gain a full animal companion to help me set up my AoOs.

If Swamp's Grasp is really vital to the build, then I'd go Cleric 1/Witch 1/Wizard or Arcane Sorcerer to keep my familiar leveling well and still have use of Swamp's Grace. I'm not the biggest fan of Witching, especially when your build already has so much control built in and won't be taking many witch levels *unless you decide to go full witch, which is ok*.

Additionally a Cleric 1/Witch 1/ Druid X would work if you grabbed Boon Companion. Your familiar would be pretty worthless but you could just grab a scorpion and stick it up your jumper for the bonus to initiative.

Magda --

I think you may be my very favorite poster on these boards. You always have some interesting build in play.

I think that it is awesome that you carry three sets of feather step slippers, and that you can equip your party so well. I'm not sure what to advise on your backup plan when allies wish to be adjacent to foes... Just like there are some scenarios where animal companions don't work, there are also going to be scenarios when your team just can't or won't work with your tactics.

I'm sick today with a muggy head, so I'm having trouble thinking of new combinations for you. I will likely post back tomorrow once I have a clearer head, and more ideas!

Hmm

Your simplest-form solution would be to start carrying around potions of Longarm or Enlarge Person for your allies, but that gets way too expensive.

Second option is to expand on what he can do to help those allies, ideally while staying in-theme. Something like, say, the Thunderstomp spell might be helpful there (and come on, you have to take that!). Some kind of ability to manipulate the enemy's ability to either maintain range or otherwise stay upright: bulrushes, trips, spells to accomplish the same, etc. That way it matters less if the allies have to get up in the enemies' faces, because either they attack and then you shove the enemy back 5' or you knock the enemy onto their back where they can't attack effectively anyway.

EDIT: I actually checked... and Thunderstomp Ben can't learn Thunderstomp. This makes me sad.

While you have him built up to Prestiege into an MT, couldn't you simply have him be a 1 Cleric/X Druid/Sorcerer/Sorcerer/Wizard/Witch?

...

Any or all of those options would absolutely work. Some are probably more optimal. I built Ben as a Cleric-1/Witch-3/Mystic Theurge-X because I have played neither a Witch nor a Mystic Theurge. I wanted to try something new. I well understand that non-scaling Witch hexes are less useful at high levels. Ben is built to do his thing starting at Level 1. At nearly Level 6 his career is already half over.

It turns out, from play experience, that the Swamps Grasp hex is incredibly helpful to his battlefield control style. Far more so than I had expected. This is because Swamps Grasp is unlimited use with 90' range, so Ben regularly uses it before rolling initiative, giving superior action economy. Scaling isn't a problem, as three 10x10 squares of Difficult Terrain are just about as useful as eleven 10x10 squares. It often amounts to effectively casting an extra spell during Round One, allowing him to either Move or use Copycat instead of a Quick Channel. What with regularly casting three spells per round & taking AoOs, Ben is all about action economy.

Having an animal companion would definitely be mechanically stronger, but I already play two other characters with Animal Companions. Thus, no animal companion for Ben. Ben occasionally trips at reach, but usually just attacks for damage. At 5th level Ben still does nearly as much melee damage as a dedicated martial (two attacks per round at +7 to hit for 3D6+8 HP), although I expect this will drop off sharply over the next few levels. So plenty optimal for PFS play.

Regardless of which build options one chooses, the same questions arise. How to best interact with characters whose basic combat style, "get adjacent to enemy and trade blows at close range", is incompatible with Ben's primary battlefield control approach.

@kestral287: I invented the name "Thunderstomp" Ben before I discovered there was a spell called "Thunderstomp". There's no such thing as a Potion of Longarm, as it's strictly a personal spell. Terrific suggestion to pass out Potions of Enlarge Person. That flat-out had not occurred to me. They only cost 50 gp and have better action economy than the spell. Ben will start doing this! That will solve Ben's problem about half the time, as it mostly allows an adjacent-style fighter to do their normal thing only at reach, take a free AoO and, most importantly, not prevent the reach fighters from getting those extra AoOs each round. For any fighter with reach, Ben's schtick provides a benefit mechanically similar to Haste (one extra attack every round!) that stacks with Haste. Ben will also start looking for, as you say, secondary options. Thanks for those excellent suggestions!

Thanks for the kind words, Hmmm. Just providing the Featherstep buff to the entire party, even when Ben does not create Difficult Terrain, is proving a pretty big benefit to the team in many PFS scenarios.

You do make wonderful characters Magda, and I was just making suggestions for other characters who make use of the same style of combat ^_^

As for how to interact with characters who need to be next to their opponents, Enlarge Person has already been stated. Anything else Ben can do to increase their reach or their movement speed would be incredibly helpful.

Also, your character can make use of other Cold spells with Rime spell! For example, using an Icicle Dagger causes you to entangle a target anytime you attack them. It's not MUCH mind you, but that could come in handy at some point. Just a trick to add up your sleeve.

Snowball, Frost Fall, and Unshakeable chill are other low level spells you can use if you want some Variety with Rime Spells. Though I think that Ice Slick is still the best option for you and your character's design.

If you make your Witch a Winter Witch, you can get a bonus to the DC of your Cold Spells, you also get ray of frost. Sadly being Entangled for 0 turns kind of sucks, so it can't be Rime Spelled :( You lose Fire spells, but that doesn't seem like a big deal to me. Still, +1 DC on those Rimed Ice Slicks will be pretty nice.

Later into your career, Rimed Ice Spears will be amazing.

If you ever have the gold to spare, a lesser metamagic rod of Rime can help you save slots for higher level spells.

I don't have a whole lot to say other than that, consider what else you can Rime and consider the Winter Witch archetype.

I don't really have any solutions off of the top of my head, but I'll be sure to post back if anything comes to me, I just wanted to say I think this is a really neat build that makes me want to try and explore more exciting options than what are generally posted.

What does that theoretical dex TWF build do when faced with natural or enemy-created difficult terrain? Or PFS scenarios don't use such underhanded tactics and are about standing in front of each other rolling full attacks?

I don't really understand how this hurts TWF users so badly. It is most annoying for pouncers specifically, but otherwise, just encourage the following tactic:

1) If no enemies are in reach, Ally moves 5ft from an enemy and readies an action to attack if an enemy moves adjacent (no loss of action economy, a charge would only give them one attack anyway). If enemy is in reach, proceed to step 3.

2) Enemy has to step in and gets a single attack.

3) Ally does TWF full attack routine and then steps 5 ft back.

4) Enemy has to step in and gets a single attack.

5) rinse repeat

This allows your TWF players to work perfectly fine without invalidating the usefulness of your difficult train (IE mostly to prevent full attacks from enemies). It doesn't help with ranged opponents... but your setup never did anyway.

One thing that pops into my head(and I am not sure this is the type of advice you were looking for), is maybe dipping one level into Brawler. The martial flexibility might pay off, so you can meet unexpected obstacles that might take away from your tactics.

What does that theoretical dex TWF build do when faced with natural or enemy-created difficult terrain? Or PFS scenarios don't use such underhanded tactics and are about standing in front of each other rolling full attacks?

You just described the big pitfall of most TWF builds. Yes, scenarios often use difficult terrain. Yes, it often hinders TFW. All the more reason why, once adjacent to a foe, they typically don't want to budge.

I don't really understand how this hurts TWF users so badly. It is most annoying for pouncers specifically, but otherwise, just encourage the following tactic:

1) If no enemies are in reach, Ally moves 5ft from an enemy and readies an action to attack if an enemy moves adjacent (no loss of action economy, a charge would only give them one attack anyway). If enemy is in reach, proceed to step 3.
2) Enemy has to step in and gets a single attack.
3) Ally does TWF full attack routine and then steps 5 ft back.
4) Enemy has to step in and gets a single attack.
5) rinse repeat

This allows your TWF players to work perfectly fine without invalidating the usefulness of your difficult train (IE mostly to prevent full attacks from enemies). It doesn't help with ranged opponents... but your setup never did anyway.

It does not hurt TWF characters at all. If the TWF uses accustomed tactics it denies AoOs to any reach fighters about, such as Ben. Since people who play TWF are often not accustomed to thinking about reach and AoOs, they often won't even know they have denied AoOs to allies unless you point it out. One must first explain how their conventional tactics hinder allies, which is a tough pill to swallow and annoys some people to no end. It may sound like you are "invalidating their build". Many people don't like to learn new tactics, and it can create uncomfortable social situations.

The tactics you suggest work perfectly. Yes, if a TWF uses the tactics you suggest they function normally and it denies the full attack to foes, greatly reducing incoming damage. But try explaining that to every new table! You suggest pretty advanced tactics. A lot of people struggle with Readied Actions. Not everyone wants to learn that much tactics. Some are willing, but some people balk at that and don't like to be told what to do. It's neither practical nor pleasant to do this for every new table.

Methinks Ben needs to have a variety of tools and contingencies, depending on who shows up for the table. Perhaps a combination of simple explanation, gentle coaxing, and bribes are in order. Bribes will be in the form of buffs like Enlarge Person. Remember, this is mostly a psychological issue, not a tactical one. What you suggest is definitely one option, for people who already want to up their tactical game. Other options are also required, as that doesn't seem to apply to a large majority of players.

Thanks!!!

I really like this build and some of your ideas might work well for a character concept I have posted here.

Something that occured to me that might make it easier for you to cooperate with more mobile meleers is to attempt to control only parts of the battlefield and leave them to play their classic slugfest game. If you use your abilities in such a way to hold back parts of the opposition while mister TWF gets to hack and slash to his pleasing you might be able to utilize him as a tool in your overall tactical plan while he feels good about it as well.

... attempt to control only parts of the battlefield and leave them to play their classic slugfest game. If you use your abilities in such a way to hold back parts of the opposition while mister TWF gets to hack and slash to his pleasing you might be able to utilize him as a tool in your overall tactical plan while he feels good about it as well.

Absolutely! Good suggestion! Yes, Ben does exactly this. Ben will typically direct the adjacent-fighter types (who lack reach) to go after that group of foes, while Ben (and any other reach fighters present) takes on the other group. This amounts to splitting the battle into a static part and a mobile part.

A few weeks ago, while doing just this, an allied TWF nearly died whilst engaged in his slug fest. Despite the difficult terrain (he had Featherstep), and despite facing several foes who had multiple attacks yet lacked reach, this guy insisted on remaining adjacent. He clearly did not understand (or care to understand?) that his 5' step would prevent most of the incoming damage. I didn't feel it was my place to teach him, for the reasons outlined above. Meanwhile Ben was holding off several similar foes, bashing them up and not getting touched. It was difficult to bite my tongue but, in the interest of diplomacy, I did. This guy's combat numbers were superior to Ben's, but his abysmal tactics almost doomed him. The party managed to save him from death, but it was close.

So, was doing as you suggest, and that was the outcome. That's a fairly common experience. Any suggestions to improve on that outcome, or is that the best we can do? Should I make a short youtube video to explain this stuff, styled like this one[Rolling high: Attacks of Opportunity]?

TWF is a tremendously popular fantasy. It's in books and movies and everywhere. On the other hand, precise reach/AoO/Area denial tactics are so... un-fantastic.

I don't feel like you will ever find a mutually satisfactory way to accommodate people who want to be the agile flurry of blades kind of guy when you're trying to build a well-oiled combat machine. Either he has to adapt to the reach battle plan you set up, or the reach guy has to supply out of his own pocket to make everyone else function.

I'm not saying your way doesn't work, but I think you're a bit of anomaly as far as charity to the team goes. Most people are not willing to be the financial martyr that keeps the battle running smoothly.

I'm getting a 403 error on that link Dominus.

Having played in one game with Ben I think some of the issues you may come across is that your approach can come across a bit...arrogant and off putting. Playing an arcanist it made no real difference to me but I know you annoyed others.

Absolutely! Good suggestion! Yes, Ben does exactly this. Ben will typically direct the adjacent-fighter types (who lack reach) to go after that group of foes

This would be an example of the sort of approach. Telling other people what to do is never going to go down terribly well.

I'm getting a 403 error on that link Dominus.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0216.html

I do love Order of the Stick, and your normal link seems to be working again. I never got that joke till I started playing my reach build.

Weird, no clue why it wasn't linking properly earlier.

Hehe preventing your allies from charging is always the hardest part about reach tactics. Sometimes you just gotta let em go...
Being a smartass at gaming tables is rarely gonna make you friends (I know this from experience). So turning up to a table and running the show from the get go might not sit well with some people as they might perceive you as wanting to ruin their fun.

Magda Luckbender wrote:

Absolutely! Good suggestion! Yes, Ben does exactly this. Ben will typically direct the adjacent-fighter types (who lack reach) to go after that group of foes

This would be an example of the sort of approach. Telling other people what to do is never going to go down terribly well.

Yes, exactly! That's why I created this thread. I was aware it annoyed some people, and am trying to find a better way. Thus my first post, "Fun games lacking internal party conflict are a priority over tactical advantage."

One possibility would be to keep part of tactics discussion in character and have others at the table contribute to the discussion. Or generally to try to plan tactics ahead of time but not by telling people here's my plan this is how we are gonna do it but more in a discursive fashion along the line of maieutics.

Linguistic tricks can be helpful. "Ben's really built around doing X, Y and Z to help _____. Buzzsaw Wolverine seems build on TWF, and I see that my strategy could get in his way. Would featherstep help him out?"

By using character names it helps shift focus from a player to his character and help keep emotions out of things. I used that approach last week in a superhero game and it seemed to work.

All the TWF guy had to do was 5ft step after his full attacks...right?

Because HE was immune to the terrain thanks to the slippers, and could thus make the 5ft steps. He could full attack, 5ft step, and then the enemy would only get a single attack on him. If you had given him a potion of Enlarge person, then he would also get a free AoO each round.

Right?

In which case, just remind your teammates about what Rough Terrain does to people. You don't have to tell them HOW to play, just tell them what you do. Not just in general terms, tell them what IT MEANS to do what you do; and leave them to figure out how to use it.

Yes. That's exactly it. Please help me explain this in simple terms, without telling people what to do or sounding like a %^%$"£. It needs to be simple, brief, and to the point. As in, some thing I can cover in a 30-60 second introduction. People will usually read one short paragraph on such things, but no more.

I've already tried explaining it simply, in several different ways, and some people just don't seem to get it. Perhaps I'm coming across as an arrogant &*^%&^$%, so they refuse to 5' step away (thus maximizing the damage they take!) just to give me the finger. Perhaps they don't understand because I'm not explaining it clearly. Please advise.

I've already tried explaining it simply, in several different ways, and some people just don't seem to get it. Perhaps I'm coming across as an arrogant &*^%&^$%, so they refuse to 5' step away (thus maximizing the damage they take!) just to give me the finger. Perhaps they don't understand because I'm not explaining it clearly. Please advise.

Alright, I can think of two different things you are fighting.

Let's start with the second point first. The 2H and TWF styles focus on closing the distance so they can get their full attacks. Every battle beats it into them that they have to close so they can get full attacks. Now you are trying to tell them that isn't the right thing to do.

So instead of talking about closing the distance, start the conversation pointing out that what they are looking to get is full round attacks. Once they are adjacent, if they full attack and then step back 5' (which the slippers would allow them to do) they are denying the enemy a full attack. If the enemy pursues them, they only get one attack and you can once again full attack. If they don't move, you can step back up and do another full attack. If they run, you can charge and attack.

That should help highlight things they understand -- full attacks by them are good, full attacks by enemy are bad. This is tricky way for you to get full attacks while preventing them from getting full attacks.

Now back to the first point. Some people hate to retreat. Since you are running a religious type, the in character way to approach this might be to start it by reciting an aphorism of Gorum.

Cowards Flee, Warriors Retreat

Although not a worshiper of Gorum, you have found that his church teachs much about war, strategy, and tactics. His church recognizes that sometimes giving ground is an excellent tactical maneuver. By stepping back, you can cause them to lose attacks while still getting all your own attacks.

Now to your own strategy...

Swamp's Grasp could also be used to prevent the enemy from retreating. If you've got a group that refuses to retreat, they would probably still love you creating a situation where archers and spellcasters can't 5' step away. This will keep the 2H and TWF styles happy since you've cut out options on opponents that they normally consider pesky.

Air Step (ACG pg. 173, Cleric 2) allows the subject to ignore difficult terrain. Works best if they have Fly skill.

Spider Climb (CRB pg. 347. Druid/Sorc/Wiz 2) will work in passages or areas with low ceilings. Unfortunately this doesn't appear to be on the Witch's spell list, but there are lots of ways to achieve it. There is also a Communal version of this.

Fly will become something you can do later. Some in your group may be able to carry some if you coordinate.

If the TWF uses accustomed tactics it denies AoOs to any reach fighters about, such as Ben.

I don't see how the "5-foot step away after full attacking" tactic denies Ben his AoO, assuming he is threatening? The enemy is hindered by the difficult terrain, so they can't 5-foot step. If the enemy wants to attack, they have to take a move action, provoking from Ben. Correct?

It does not hurt TWF characters at all. If the TWF uses accustomed tactics it denies AoOs to any reach fighters about, such as Ben.

I get you, except even without difficult terrain abound, if the TWF uses accustomed tactics they deny AoOs to the reach fighters anyway. Your scenario amplifies the issue, but this is more a debate about how to encourage players to use synergistic tactics than anything else.

If the players are so unwilling to adopt new strategies as simple as '5 ft step after your full attack instead of before', there isn't a lot you can do. Find better players, I guess?

Is there a magic item that can give a feat to a character?

I thought there was, but now I can't find it. If there is, the Nimble Moves feat would allow 5' step over the difficult terrain. Not as good as Freedom of Movement, but still nice.

Great commentary, all! Thanks! Keep it up!

@Bret: Ben already has enough Featherstep to cover the entire party for every encounter. He's open to buying a 4th set of slippers, but experience shows it will generally go to an archer or a caster, who really does not care much about the 5' step. Nimble Moves would work, too, but is more expensive to arrange.

@Bret again: I just re-read your religious suggestion. That is spot on! Ben has, indeed, traveled with one Gorumite who disliked retreating. Great suggestion!

It's not that people seem unwilling to adopt new strategies, it's that they haven't thought about it. Normally there's no reason for a TWF to 5' step away, so it's not part of their routine. This issue was always there, Ben's approach just magnifies it, by denying foes the 5' step.

Yes, this is a debate about how to encourage players to use synergistic tactics. I've found that most people are quite willing to do so. The trick is encouraging this without coming off as an %^$^%$^, and without overwhelming people with complex tactics.

I'm looking for simple, friendly ways to encourage synergistic tactics. Ben sets up the situation, but people still need to both understand how it works and be willing to play along.

Ben is perfectly happy to distribute Potions of Enlarge Person at will to allies. The extra cost of doing so will be offset by not having to pay for as many Raise Dead and Restoration spells. Ben's approach has already probably prevented several character deaths.

@Gavmania: I totally agree. :-)

Seems to me that your tactic does not cause the strategy problem, it only exacerbates it. Even without difficult terrain/feather step you have the problem of TWF vs. Reach tactics; just look at any party with reach fighters in it and see what they do. Other than that, the advice given so far is all good.

I guess when you sit down with people to introduce yourself and your character go; "Hey all, I play a reach based Mystic Theurge named Ben. Ben here focuses on making rough terrain so that enemies are pretty immobile and can't 5ft step. I bought all of you here some Featherstep Slippers and some potions of Enlarge Person so you won't be effected by the rough terrain AND so you can step away from enemies to bait them into provoking an AoO. Just put these on, drink up when appropriate, and lets go stomp some goons!"

Yes! I've been working on variations of that introduction, and haven't been able to get it quite right. That's very good!

Quote:

If the TWF uses accustomed tactics it denies AoOs to any reach fighters about, such as Ben.

I don't see how the "5-foot step away after full attacking" tactic denies Ben his AoO, assuming he is threatening? The enemy is hindered by the difficult terrain, so they can't 5-foot step. If the enemy wants to attack, they have to take a move action, provoking from Ben. Correct?

By not taking the 5' step (or taking it in the wrong direction) they're providing soft cover that prevents AoOs.

Another thing to consider: using tactics like this might just not be in character for many characters.

Maybe the character is a "tough guy" who would never be seen retreating from melee.

Maybe the character is very stupid, and this type of tactic is just over his head.

Maybe it's a raging barbarian, who understands what you're saying when you explain it, but in the heat of battle his instincts take over.

I would suggest being flexible - bring multiple characters, and feel out whether or not the rest of the party is willing to stick to Ben's battle plan. Because even if it's the best idea tactically, it might involve breaking character in some circumstances. If they aren't willing to follow Ben's plan, just play a different character for that session.

I'm nowhere your equal in battlefield control, Magda, but I understand communication.

I think that one thing you can do is ask your fellow players their favorite tactics at the beginning, while the GM is setting up.

Shrouded Light made a good suggestion, but I still think you need to ask questions and get them talking in a conversation where you guys collaborate on a strategy. If they buy in and get excited, the strategy becomes something that belongs to the party, not just you.

Also, you should accept that no matter what you do, or what you agree on, there will always be players who eschew tactics for their own glory. We had one situation in Mists of Mwangi where we all agreed that the best solution would be to guard the door and let the bad guys come to us one by one. And then the Magus decides to run in anyway and charge for glory.

Our Paladin was so upset that when his turn came, he said, "I'm contemplating closing the door behind him and leaving him to it. Sigh. A paladin can fantasize can't he?" before charging in to rescue the Magus in a battle where we all got our butts handed to us.

It will happen. Just work and communicate with the good ones in advance, and build what consensus you can.

Hmm

I do love Order of the Stick, and your normal link seems to be working again. I never got that joke till I started playing my reach build.

Weird, no clue why it wasn't linking properly earlier.

I'm still getting 403?

I feel your pain. My bloodrager is a reach/natural attacker build and almost never gets to do his thing. People always charge. I very rarely sit at a table where everyone is tactically competent. And your build is more frustrating than mine will ever be even going Golden Legionnaire.

Even without a reach build there is often crowding with too many melee characters. Sometimes it is area bombers and melee builds getting in each others way. Sometimes it is all archers and casters and everyone is fleeing from every melee. Tactics with strangers aren't always easy.

I try to get a feel for what the other characters do and adapt to them rather than trying to get them to adapt to me. I am better at tactics than most people I game with, but I do learn new things fairly often. I find it helps to let others fail rather than to try and bail them out after they do something moronic. I know that sounds harsh, but I don't want to waste my time being constantly invalidated myself.

Nobody is liked by everyone but as long as you are civil you should be fine. I know there are certain players I would rather avoid, and I suspect the feeling is mutual. I'm probably not the best person to give you advice though as I have sided with you and am annoyed with the reach ignorers.

Here's the working link to OOTS episode 216, the Attacks of Opportunity joke.

You know, I never noticed how awesome Swamp's Grasp was. Now I wish there was some way to combine your concepts with the White Haired Witch, so that I could just use the increasing reach of the hair instead of a polearm. I wonder if there are any good ways to get the White Haired Witch a Hex or two without having to multi-class Hexcrafter Magus.

It occurs to me a Witch could effectively combine Swamp's Grasp with Prehensile Hair. Of course, this completely fails when you are taken by surprise, as both require a Standard Action to activate. That's why Ben went with Swift Action Enlarge and a polearm, instead. Such a Witch could be SAD, where Ben is absurdly MAD. Still, if you are expecting trouble, such as when exploring a dungeon, you could do the following:

* Start up Prehensile Hair and any other minute-per-level buffs
* Move on, looking for trouble
* Constantly use Swamps Grasp, out of combat. E.g. protect your team's flank from unexpected enemies, fill the area ahead in case anything pops out, and block potential enemy charge lanes. It doesn't always work, but it works often enough for me that I do it when possible.
* It works really well to put allies in difficult terrain, on the edge. That way they can 5' step out of difficult terrain, but foes have a tougher slog if they want to follow. No featherstep required.

If this works out right (I guess 30% chance outside a dungeon, 70% in a dungeon) you start combat with both hair and difficult terrain in place. A Prehensile Hair Witch with 22 INT, standing in difficult terrain, works really well. The problem is the two round setup.

Probably better in a home game. PFS is rife with PUG/box of chocolate syndrome, you never know what you are going to get.

I strongly suggest a backup schtick for when you end up with a group that doesn't fit.

That said, I would introduce your key tactic at session start and get feedback to see if the others will accept. Offer it, don't push it, and if they say no, roll with it. I tend to have oddball concepts, but I make sure they can function in their primary role if I play with a group that doesn't mesh with their niche ability.

Good luck with your character!

Weird, no clue why it wasn't linking properly earlier.

Giantitp might have hotlinking disabled.

I was aware it annoyed some people, and am trying to find a better way.

I must admit I'm not knowledgeable on PFS. Do you have a friend who likes reach Hammers and/or knows that TWF is suboptimal in many scenarios? Seeing how Ben is good Anvil/Arm, you would make a great team. Telling people what to do might not win you friends, but telling you "Hey, you are killing bad guys too efficiently! Let me kamikaze in with my TWF rogue!" isn't going to win them friends either, especially when you provide them a solution with your own wealth.

On a side note, thanks for enlightening me on variant channeling.

I think the problem you're running into is that your friends suck at this game. No, really, they're not targeting the right enemies at all. If I'm playing something that is all-in for damage, I aim for the softest targets first. Normally, these are the full casters. In any situation where I can 5' and they cannot, I own their face. If your heavy hitters are going after other heavy hitters, or an even worse target of the tank, they're doing it wrong. Dude with the heavy armor and tower shield? yeah, leave him be cause his damage is not great. Dude with the staff spitting arcane rhymes in draconic? That mofo needs to get dead right quick. It's D&D 101.

Also, remember that you can let your heavy hitters get into position and then use your difficult terrain spam. Use it to lock in the positions that they like once they've reached them. This can be to great tactical advantage as well. The delay action and ready action options are available for a reason.

Here's the working link to OOTS episode 216, the Attacks of Opportunity joke.

** spoiler omitted **...

Thank you! (for the link and the info)

I'm seeing a small problem. I don't think Swamp's Grasp is legal for PFS.

Pathfinder Player Companion: Blood of the Moon

To create a skinwalker (which includes all were-kin), you must have a Chronicle sheet that opens the race as a legal option at character creation.

Note: Racial feats, racial traits, and racial spells are only available for characters of the skinwalker race. Racial equipment and magic items can be purchased and used by any race as long as the specific item permits it.

The becoming a lycanthrope section of this book is not legal for Pathfinder Society play unless noted on a future Chronicle sheet.

Equipment: all equipment on page 30 are legal; Magic Items: all magic items on pages 30-31 are legal; Mystery: the lunar mystery is legal for play.

This listing only seems to show what is legal. It doesn't include new class abilities aside from the Lunar mystery.

(I love the idea, though!)

Magda,

I play a Thunder and Fang Slayer; basically, your worse nightmare as a teammate. He also has a 7 INT and I play that lack of intelligence up. I can certainly relate with players at the table not recognizing the tactical advantages of just simple action economy. I can say, that a simple blurb like Shrouded suggested would likely be helpful to most players, but with such a diversity of people in PFS, you're liable to rub at least 30% of people the wrong way. But you're certainly taking pains to ensure you are not being unreasonable in your playstyle, which is more than I can say of the vast majority of players. Heck, even I am guilty of it on my witch, using spells like web and stinking cloud to shut down enemies, but also restrict my allies movement. I'm going to take page from your book and load up on some wands to alleviate the problems that I cause. So you've certainly opened my eyes to a better way to play. And your willingness to be a team player makes you a good pathfinder, which is cool. I don't think you should invest too much beyond the potions you mention, because that allows them to take equal advantage of your battlefield control.

Another idea would be using Winter's Grasp, but would require some way to negate the cold damage or the entangle for your melee party.

Or you just use it when you've got a primary ranged party, since it throws down difficult terrain and entangle in a full 20ft radius, with the entangle resetting every turn.

Was this thread title designed to get more clicks?