Yes, at least there is in Skulls and Shackles. I don't remember where the rules are for that but I'll look it up later. Came up when the wizard and the cleric made separate quarters in cargo bay.
I think that might be listed with the ship's statistics, but I also think that really tracking it was kind of a pain, because technically food stuffs for the crew and ammo for the ballistae and that kind of stuff all eats up the same storage space you'd use for plunder.
I'm willing to mostly handwave all that because generally speaking you're going to want to put into port every 1-3 ships anyways to restock, repair, and get the crew paid. Few things can kill ship morale like making the crew wait too long between paydays (especially if the hold is already full of goods).
Also, as I mentioned, I don't want to get bogged down in tedious naval simulations, but I also do want things like ship upgrades and sailing skill to matter, so here's my proposal for how to handle that aspect of things. Please read it and let me know what you think. To me, it seems a fair bit more streamlined than the standard rules, and more focused on getting the PCs into normal combat, but I'd like to hear everyone else's thoughts.
I think that's fairly solid, though it may still take quite a few rounds before close. Longbows using far shot or reach metamagic will be able to hit targets hundreds (almost thousands) of feet away. In extreme cases, we could end up with 10+ rounds of ranged fighting before closing lines.
I think it looks pretty solid, but not having played the other rules, I have no basis for comparison. :)
Whose Perception check is used in step 1?
And just so I'm clear, it's either the bosun or the sailing master assisting, not both?
Looks good to me.
thumbs up
I had a request to be able to comment on the proposed ship to ship combat rules, so I changed access so that all of you can post comments on it now.
To address Aersten's questions:
- we would use the perception check of whoever's on lookout. Usually, that would mean whoever you have stationed in the crowsnest, though I suppose you could assign that responsibility to someone else if you all agree on it before hand. If you assigned it to someone with another responsibility though (like whoever is going to make the sailor checks) they would take the -5 penalty to perception for being distracted.
- for most sailing checks I'm going to limit you to 1 assist. If there's unusual circumstances (like sailing through the reefs where a bunch of people were watching in various directions to help navigate) I may allow more, but typically we're going to stick to 1.
To address Paddy's concern:
- yes, that would potentially mean starting with 10+ rounds of ranged combat... most of that would just be long range spells and siege weapons though. Normal ranged weapons aren't going to deal appreciable damage to ships and between range penalties and cover (or even total cover) they probably won't be effective against enemy sailors until the last couple rounds. Maybe we could streamline it a bit further though... perhaps instead of quickly playing out all those rounds we just allow each ship the opportunity to cast 2-3 long range spells (if they have the ability and desire) and to make 2-3 volleys with their siege weapons and then start actually round by round at some arbitrary distance, like 120' or something? How does that sound to everyone?
Also, I'm going to put up a fluff post as soon as I can; please feel free to RP while we get the rules nailed down (and then we get into the hunt).
(looks at our roster)
Our lookout is a tengu. If we put him in the crow's nest, will he complain that we're pigeon-holing him?
(hook grabs Aersten, drags him off-stage)
No wait, I wasn't done...!
His nickname is Crow because he fully embraces the humor and roll of having a Tengu in the crowsnest.
(Resists several more bird jokes because, why test one's luck?) :)
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I enjoyed that, but it might ruffle some feathers
Your recommendation sounds good to me. Have you considered the possibility of ambushes, such as sailing hidden in the night, or using ship-wide illusion magic, or just insanely incompetent lookouts? And if we were somehow capable of drastically increasing our ship's speed, would we be able to reduce that ranged session by a round?
No issues about bows. I don't think anyone here is planning on a far-shot arcana archer with adamantine arrows, though I do wonder about flaming or flaming burst archery.
In addressing Paddy’s concern, I suggested a further streamlining for the ranged combat before ships make contact... I’d like to get some feedback on that potential change before we actually get into the first encounter.
In addressing Paddy’s concern, I suggested a further streamlining for the ranged combat before ships make contact... I’d like to get some feedback on that potential change before we actually get into the first encounter.
I give you the thumbs up.
Do you have any comments regarding my more recent questions?
I’ll look at how effective flaming arrows would be against sails. The cost is significant enough that I don’t expect them to be a common occurrence, but I could see burning someone’s sails in order to escape being a reasonable tactic for a wealthy merchant ship?
Hedy could pick up setting things on fire with her bullets next level, then a musket shot to the sail would be a great start to an attack.
The boat-to-boat rules sound fair to me.
As far as the revision to ranged combat for ships, looks like a good starting point. We can try it out, and if it feels weird in any way, revise it further, right?
Happy with the changes
Ah-ha, Hedy makes a good point... burning someone else's sails to stop them from escaping you is a pretty reasonable tactic too. I'll go searching for the rules on that as soon as I have time and let everyone know.
You know how Garrosh keeps asking Piotr and Kilarra to move out of the way so he can get a clear shot? That's the soft cover. Allies in melee not only imposes a -4 without precise shot, but also grants the target soft cover (if the shot would go through the ally's square). This soft cover also applies to reach weapons. It's pretty brutal, and off the top of my head the only way for archers to get past that is either Elven Accuracy or Improved Precise Shot. In my games I don't worry about it, but after seeing archers absolutely wreck encounters like it's child's play (multiple times), I'm a little more open to the concept.
Also I used to play Chivalry several years ago, and I was that ass who kept shooting my allies in the back because I missed.
Well, soft cover sure beats friendly fire!
Friendly Fire, teamwork, betrayal
Your ranged attacks startle your enemies, partly because you’re not even trying to avoid hitting your allies.
Prerequisite(s): Precise Shot.
Benefit(s): You initiate this feat as a standard action, making a ranged attack against a foe engaged in melee with at least one abettor. This shot deliberately forsakes normal precautions, putting your abettor at risk, but also is unexpected enough to surprise your mutual opponent.
You gain a +2 bonus on your attack roll if the attack passes through an abettor’s space. If your shot misses the target, you must immediately make a second attack roll with all the same modifiers against the abettor, potentially hitting her with the attack instead of the opponent. When the attack resolves (regardless of whether either potential target was hit), the intended target’s startled reaction provokes an attack of opportunity from the abettor.
Indeed, it's one of those things I chalk up to the fact that over its lifetime, PF got so damn big that you wouldn't know all the rules for a particular part unless it was something you were making a living with. :)
That feat was one of three I have earmarked as "Get these to finish fleshing out the concept," the other two being Lunge and Combat Reflexes. I'm just thankful that as a fighter, I'm relatively swimming in feats. :)
There’s a feat specifically for getting rid of the soft cover penalty for reach melee types too. I believe it’s called phalanx formation or something similar. This is what I get for commenting here before I check gameplay!
Also, sorry for the prolonged delay but I had a little more difficulty sorting out the whole lighting sails on fire thing than I anticipated. If anyone knows of any clear rules on it I’d appreciate a link. From what I’ve looked at, momentary effects like most spells, flaming or flaming burst weapons, and most alchemist bombs don’t generally start fires. Ongoing fire effects can though (like maybe alchemist’s fire) or something like explosive bombs (that specifically say they start fires) definitely would. The big question is how to determine whether or not the ‘coulds’ would... So, my thought on a rule for us (unless someone else finds something official) is that if an ongoing fire effect deals enough damage that it would have to spread to another square to all be inflicted (since things like sails have hp/square) then the whole object catches fire, and if it can inflict all its damage without spreading then the object doesn’t stay on fire after the effect ends. How does that sound for our official approach?
Right now Hedy cannot do this, so very sorry it caused a mass of research. :)
Lol- it needed to be done eventually. And something like alchemist’s fire is easy enough to get that we’ll need to know what to expect with it before too long.
That’s awesome!
@Hedy, feel free to use Discord PM to let me know if Saph is needed. She’s useless prior to melee, assuming we’re attacking before even trying to persuade a surrender.
I’ll be checking boards, but between my brother visiting (which is the only time I play video games anymore) and actually having time to draw (after he leaves), I might get behind and/or miss stuff I normally wouldn’t.
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ENJOY!!!! That is much more important than piracy :) I'll ping you once we get into brawling range.
On a side note, to any and all for whom it's a thing, have a safe and pleasant holiday weekend!
You too! Happy Thanksgiving to those who celebrate it! To the rest, Happy Regular Thursday!
As far as manning one of the ballistas, without being proficient, I check in at (BAB +5, Dex +2, nonproficient -4) +3 total. It's probably good enough to justify my manning one unless any of the deck crew actually are proficient with siege weapons.
Yes, Happy Thanksgiving to all the Americans among us (and happy Thursday to everyone else). I started planning food before the Covid numbers and guidelines/restrictions changed in my area, so I'm making way too much food tomorrow and freezing a lot of leftovers. I'm still looking forward to it though. I love a big turkey dinner.
For our present encounter, should I wait for Murillo to post different rolls or just go with Paddy's rolls this time?
HAPPY THANKSGIVING (or THURSDAY)! I plan to eat until I can't move.
Happy Thanksgiving to those celebrating!
I appreciate Paddy stepping up to keep things moving and don't want to set a precedent of the game waiting on me to make skill checks. I'm fine with keeping Paddy's rolls while Murillo stumbles into his boots and gear belowdecks; if we prefer to retcon Murillo grabbing the helm I've included spoilered checks in gameplay.
Since this is the first time and we’re all still getting a feel for it, I think it might not be a bad idea to set the precedent that the first mate pilots the ship into combat.
Alas, with all my cooking and cleaning for the holiday I’ve run out of time for a post. I apologize and promise I will get us going on the encounter tomorrow (or later today, depending on your time zone).
Hedy- I’m a little bit unclear on what you did... are you using your gun to make a bomb attack? Is that with the explosive missile discovery or a feature of your archetype? If it’s a class feature I’ll just have to go read it myself, but if it’s the discovery I think (iirc) that you should still do your base gun damage too? Also, I think explosive missile says you load and fire as a standard action when you use it (again, iirc) so if that’s what you’re using you may be able to do it every round?
It is her gun chemist archetype. She doesn't have bombs, she has ordnances. She had to fire them from a gun, and has no splash damage (unless she picks up a discovery,explosive bullets). It is an attack from the firearm as normal plus the 'bomb' damage. Her discovery she is adding is explosive bombs, which for some reason hero lab renames. The extra radius is ignored so it just has the set on fire extra bit)
Okay, before I flood the gameplay thread with more misunderstandings...
Saph’s post then just goes as far as the ooc note before the Intimidate attempt, which did not happen. Instead she sinks into dragon stance (which really, she did several rounds ago in my head) and positions herself within 20 feet of the guard that she intends to kill. (And again, I was more or less thinking she was moving close intent on leaping when her flying kick can reach.)
Should I wait for the Init roll, or just post the attack and Init roll determines whether we land them before they shoot?
How does that work when we all have readied actions? Just a straight-up init roll as normal? All kicked off when Hedy levels her gun at someone?
I am quite happy with the interactions. Nice curve to include in the standard brawling blood bath :)
I don’t actually want a readied action myself. I need the full round to reach my foe.
Of course, if no one objects to Saph triggering the attack… no issue then.
Oh, and since I keep forgetting to ask,
@Paddy, will there be inspiring courage to drown the awkward silence of a stand-off?
Hedy- it’s like a classic stand-off... we wait until one person takes an action that triggers readied actions and then all hell breaks loose. Anyone (besides the one who breaks the stalemate) who doesn’t have a readied action trigger will have to wait until after the initial chaos to act.
Saph- the only way to get a full-round action during the chaos is to be the one the breaks the stalemate. However, you might want to bear in mind the readied actions interrupt the triggering action... so if they’re waiting to attack anyone who attacks, they’d all fire while you’re flying through the air (before you hit anyone).
Oh, also, there’s this
In that case, full defense; let chaos rain. (Not reign, since it’s arrows and bolts).
Hedy has a much better AC, though much worse hit points.
Ah, big trouble in little china, Kurt Russels finest.
I’m not gonna tell anyone how to do their job but the safest course of action would probably be to order your crossbow corps to fire- that way the guards counter-attack is spread out instead of one of you getting shot at 12 times.
Whatever let’s me do a full round action works. A readied action only works for me if an enemy walks into melee range. I can’t do the flying kick unless it’s a full round action.
I do like letting the crew fire at the twelve guards. I don’t plan to be efficient* if I can reach the talky guard. Saph intends to keep hitting him, even if he falls before she lands all her attacks. If he falls prone, she’ll stomp him.
She has her reasons.
Saph- after the flurry of readied attacks we’ll be back into regular rounds and you’ll be able to get in there and beat people. If you want to go for a flying kick now (or, tomorrow morning to leave room for readying actions) you’re welcome to, I just wanted to point out that you might be taking 12 light crossbow attacks to do so...
Hedy's fine. 29 ac and protection from arrows at the moment I doubt she has a lot to worry about. So when we are ready she'll shoot.
Saph- after the flurry of readied attacks we’ll be back into regular rounds and you’ll be able to get in there and beat people. If you want to go for a flying kick now (or, tomorrow morning to leave room for readying actions) you’re welcome to, I just wanted to point out that you might be taking 12 light crossbow attacks to do so...
Oh, hell no! Full defense. I’ll wait for the crossbows to shoot each other!
I post after the volley then?
@Hedy- I think you’re only at 27, aren’t you? The shield spell provides a shield bonus and therefore overlaps (doesn’t stack) with the +2 you normally get from your magic buckler. (They still have very little chance of hitting you at a 27 though, lol).
@Saph- yeah. Basically, Hedy will make her attack and that will trigger like 23-24 readied attacks. Once those are resolved, I’ll let PCs without readied actions (besides Hedy) go, followed by NPCs without readied actions to finish the round. In the next round, it’ll work backwards through those who’d had readied actions then Hedy again by followed by the rest of PCs.