Hells Rebels (Inactive)

Game Master Daniel Penfold 351

Apologies, I’m overwhelmed with work at the moment.

Should be temporary, please bot me.

Not sure if I seen it, but who is rolling for perception checks ?

I think our GM will, in the case of impending ambush or combat, but we do if there's something we want to check out in particular, and he'll tell us if we find anything, or sometimes even if there's anything to find, so we don't beat our heads against a red herring.

Understood. Was just wanting to clarify.

Daniel, did I send you those maps?

No, i don't think so, haven't received anything.

Sorry, it slipped my mind. I'll get on it.

Just looking at the map, what's the deal with the otyughs?

Oh, that was fun. We managed to sweet-talk, bluff, and threaten (all three, not necessarily at once) our way past them and the first cultists, by pretending we were meant to be there and getting the latter to feed the former. Reinforced by the suggestion that said cultists were going to do so one way or another if they annoyed Adonara too much. :)

The plan, such as it was, was to move the otyughs along back into the sewers or something once we find a safe route to do so.

Ha!

Everyone needs a good ‘so we talked to the otyughs’ story.

As Adonara goes through her spiel, Til starts grinning. Then shaking his head. By the time she tries to fit the fourth question in, he's both hanging his head and chuckling slightly, waiting to see how this ghost will choose to respond.

What can I say? I got nervous.

I mean, I started thinking about the necessity of proper burial rites, and then I got paranoid that this was a fake-out and a "cursed be he who moves my bones" situation, because why would you trust a Norgorber cultist and...

Adonara's head is a rabbit hole in its own right. :)

Ragnar moves back, drawing one of his ghost touched arrows out and watching to see what the results of the attempted parley were.

I am getting a bad feeling about this

You and me both! If only this was Middle-earth, where we could do the Legolas thing: “Oh, how cute! Ghosts of dead humans! No problem, let’s just keep going, then.” ;)

My go-to class is cleric... missing that right now.

Pretty much the same here.

Trying something out that is a bit more scrappy, but less casty.
However, I kind of miss the holy nova thing. :)

Sorry. Really bad day at work, followed by the older grandchild acting out all night. I'm almost calmed down. Let's go see what's happened here . . ..

Well, I'm playing more to type. I tend to enjoy seeing how much I can contribute without any spells available. The min-maxers tend to dissuade people form doing that, so . . ..

Fulk, how are you getting that +3 damage on your mystic bolts?

I have just begun playing a warlock and can't figure out how to boost damage at all.

I can't keep not asking.

TWf & Rapid Shot?

Each requires a Full-Attack Action. How do you justify doing them at the same time? That's like a Fighter (without a Barbarian's Pounce) charging across the battlefield and then performing a full attack set in the same round.

And, no, I don't think you counted the number of attacks properly.

BAB gets you 1 attack. TWF gets you a "bonus" off-hand attack. Rapid Attack lets you get ONE additional ranged attack. Not one per other attack. So, even if they do stack, that's 3 attacks maximum.

You also have the penalty wrong. You show +9 for a single shot. Both Rapid Shot and TWF have a minimum penalty of -2 per attack in the set. So, if those full-attack feat-based options do stack, all 3 attacks would be +5 ranged touch attacks, not +7.

Multiple ranged touch attacks every round is HUGE. I am completely unfamiliar with the class/archetype except for the quick check I did to try to understand Bran's question. Now I understand it, but I don't have an answer for it. I have a GUESS. I'm guessing you are applying Arcane Strike, which violates the restriction about permanent bonuses to the impermanent bolts listed in the description of the bolts. But that gets you +1 damage under Mystic Bolt for 5 levels, and +2 from Arcane Strike (+1 base +1 for 5 levels), so it would explain expecting the +3. Maybe.

I saw that and figured I'd let the DM look into it. After the questions I took a quick look. Two-Weapon Fighting is a full attack action. Rapid Shot: When making a full-attack action with a ranged weapon, you can fire one additional time this round at your highest bonus. All of your attack rolls take a –2 penalty when using Rapid Shot. I would say that it would apply once per weapon but you could make an argument that the penalty applies twice too. You are correct in the penalties, -2 TWF, -2 RS.

If you ignore his weapon and think of two other weapons that can fire multiple times in a round, revolvers, would rapid shot still apply? Sometimes I think it it is better to think of rules in a generic sense to avoid getting bogged down in a specific "off the wall". In this case a weapon that can be fired one handed without needing to be reloaded. Daggers might work with quick draw as well.

In the end it is still all up to the DM.

ABSOLUTELY up to the DM.

But I've been holding in the question (didn't look at anything until tonight) waiting. I just reached the point I had to ask.

I think I found the answer. Kasathas have a ranger archetype: Bow Nomad, they can wield 2 bows.

Twin Bows (Ex): At 1st level, a bow nomad can simultaneously wield a combination of two of any of the following ranged weapons: shortbow, longbow, and their composite versions. When a bow nomad makes a full attack with two bows, twoweapon penalties apply and can be offset with Two- Weapon Fighting feats. Since bows aren’t light weapons, a bow nomad with Two-Weapon Fighting takes a –4 penalty on attacks with each of her bows. Extra attacks from other sources, such as those granted by Manyshot or Rapid Shot, can be applied to only one of the wielded bows per round. This ability replaces wild empathy.

So you are correct only one extra shot and all shots at -4. Manyshot could apply as well. That's a lot of shots downrange but I don't think any worse than an archer fighter. At 20th level Vigilante: 3 @ BAB, 2 @ BAB -5, 2 @ BAB -10. At 20th Archer Fighter 2 @ BAB, 1 @ BAB -5, BAB -10, BAB -15. While the fighter has less shots they are much more likely to hit and do more damage thanks to weapon training and the ability to add in greater weapon focus and both weapon specializations though touch AC evens things out some.

And Google showed me a 2016 thread where players are saying the feat combination works. But it doesn't justify or explain it.

Found another thread (from 2007) that apparently tries to link back to a full explanation, but that link appears dead.

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/v5748btpy8fo1/faq#v5748eaic9n8l

I think you are discounting the advantage of Touch Attacks too far. He will have lower attack bonuses, but he's generally going to be targeting a significantly lower AC value. And he's at least as likely to pick up Clustered Shots, just in case his selected energy types don't already bypass any applicable DR.

I don't doubt that TWF and Rapid Shot work together at all. I quoted the relevant information above. My questions revolved around how many extra shots since there are two weapons and RS works with a ranged weapon. I don't really question any of it's legality in general. In this case it looks like one extra attack on top of TWF at a -4.

EDIT: Though Power Attack and Deadly Aim can't be used with touch attacks.

EDIT EDIT:

I think you are discounting the advantage of Touch Attacks too far. He will have lower attack bonuses, but he's generally going to be targeting a significantly lower AC value. And he's at least as likely to pick up Clustered Shots, just in case his selected energy types don't already bypass any applicable DR.

You are right. I looked at some CR 20+ monsters and there is a big difference between touch AC and AC. But damage is still low. The damage will be low 1d6+5 and not much of a chance to increase it and that is before elemental resistances or immunity.

I'm guessing you are applying Arcane Strike, which violates the restriction about permanent bonuses to the impermanent bolts listed in the description of the bolts. But that gets you +1 damage under Mystic Bolt for 5 levels, and +2 from Arcane Strike (+1 base +1 for 5 levels), so it would explain expecting the +3. Maybe.

It’s a bit too late in my part of the world for me to even count, let alone parse rules text for the number of bolts, but for what a non-GM opinion’s worth, I think the Arcane Strike thing’s no problem. He’s getting it from the vigilante talent, and while there’s that line about the bolts being impermanent, I’m not sure how to interpret “abilities that affect all weapon attacks the warlock makes, such as the arcane striker warlock talent, function with mystic bolts” unless he gets at least the flat damage boost from Arcane Strike.

My undercaffeinated 2 cp. So much for the evening news; now for comedy.

Bran Elberion wrote:

My go-to class is cleric... missing that right now.

Pretty much the same here.

Trying something out that is a bit more scrappy, but less casty.
However, I kind of miss the holy nova thing. :)

My excessively convoluted leveling scheme for Adonara means she’ll be slipping behind a bit on the warpriest front, but between two (at least mostly) half-clerics, maybe we can pull off a holy nova working together? Or 90% of one? Let me know if you want help splashing some positive energy around. ;)

Tilorean Vashnarstill wrote:

I'm guessing you are applying Arcane Strike, which violates the restriction about permanent bonuses to the impermanent bolts listed in the description of the bolts. But that gets you +1 damage under Mystic Bolt for 5 levels, and +2 from Arcane Strike (+1 base +1 for 5 levels), so it would explain expecting the +3. Maybe.

It’s a bit too late in my part of the world for me to even count, let alone parse rules text for the number of bolts, but for what a non-GM opinion’s worth, I think the Arcane Strike thing’s no problem. He’s getting it from the vigilante talent, and while there’s that line about the bolts being impermanent, I’m not sure how to interpret “abilities that affect all weapon attacks the warlock makes, such as the arcane striker warlock talent, function with mystic bolts” unless he gets at least the flat damage boost from Arcane Strike.

My undercaffeinated 2 cp. So much for the evening news; now for comedy.

Yeah, that is specifically for spells like magic weapon. Arcane strike applies to all of your weapons (not a single one) and so works.

I just didn't realise that arcane strike goes up by one every five levels.

Hmm, Fulk, you might want PBS so all of your ranged attacks get another +1.

Not how I read it on that quick pass. Let me go look again.

Yep. Arcane Striker is explicitly called out as applying. Okay, then. Guess I missed that quick parenthetical while I was scanning.

Honestly, I'm mostly following HeroLab's lead, which I realize isn't always 100% accurate. The +3 is definitely from Arcane Striker.

When you check the Double box for Mystic Bolts in HeroLab, it shows "Ranged +5/+5 (Off: +7/+7)", which looks to me like it's interpreting Rapid shot as giving an extra attack with each hand.

I can't quite parse the bonuses though. Why are the hands different? +3(BAB)+4(Dex)=9, then subtract 2 for TWF (both weapons are light, so -2 on both hands)=+7

Wait! It's an additional -2 for Rapid Shot. Those should be at -5, my bad. It should still be the same for both, though, right? I can't figure out why the off hand is showing a higher bonus than the main hand.

The biggest problem with Mystic Bolts is how easy they are to shut down with a simple Resist Energy spell (or even natural energy resistance). 1d6+3 averages 6.5 damage, so Acid Resistance 5 almost neuters my damage, and 10 completely negates it. It'll gradually increase, and I'll gain flexibility in the energy type over time, but it's still easy for intelligent enemies to shut down.

I'm going to look into this in more detail - for know I'll let the attacks stand.

As you level up, you can change damage type (7th), have a choice of different gloves (acid/fire) and the energy from arcane striker (12th) has 4 options.
So, unless a foe is immune to acid, elec., fire and cold, you should be okay.

And you have your spells as well.

I’m thinking that, at high levels, crit feats might be good?
Loads of attacks looking for that 19-20roll and you’re pretty sure to confirm (improved critical and critical focus), then add effects: blinding, dispelling, tripping...

I would guess the off-hand is showing only the TWF penalty and not both because the software was not designed to combine those feats anymore than I expected them to combine.

Right now I full well believe that at this point in character advancement, they should combine to provide you 2 melee touch attacks @ +7 to hit or 3 ranged touch attacks @ +5 to hit, either way at 1d6+3 energy (acidic, wasn't it?) damage.

The expanding number of touch attacks with the versatility available in energy type and bonuses applied to the attacks is a really huge capability. Opponents with widespread energy resistance/immunity or high touch AC are pretty rare, making the weaknesses of this attack set special corner cases. Even the pouncing, power-attacking, raging barbarian has corner cases where his schtick doesn't go so well.

Yeah, I think the weakness is that it’s never that much damage.

Right, I've been speaking to a friend of mine about this who is my go to guy when there are rules issues.

So if playing a kasathas Fulk can use Two Weapon Fighting and Rapid Shot with that archetype but the penalty on all attacks in a full round should be -6.

Right, so: strategizing. :)

Amusingly enough, since we don’t have any primary spellcasters in the party, we don’t natively have access to water breathing yet. It might be worth getting a scroll or two, not least because it lasts 2 hrs/lvl and can be divided among the targets. Even the one would net us the better part of a couple of hours to explore.

Anyway, I would submit that our first order of business once we get down there should be to see if we can find and reactivate the pumps to dry the level out a bit, so maybe gradually expand our search from wherever we enter? That is, check all the first rooms off the room we arrive in for clues rather than proceed wing by wing, if that’s how the next level is arranged?

Anyway, apart from scrolls still to purchase, Ragnar and I can prepare a bunch of castings of air bubble, and we have a couple of scrolls of it already, so Fulk could add it to his spellbook. Covering all of us for more than a few minutes would take up our 1st level spells, but at least a couple of castings might be a useful back-up.

For affording things like security measures, does anyone feel like using a dagger of venom? If not, we could sell the one in our rebellion’s vault (read: under Ado’s mattress, at the moment, probably) for some not so petty cash.

Thoughts? I don't think it should be all that tricky, but I don't want to be too cavalier about it.

Air Bubble is good but I was hoping for touch of the sea as well to handle the swimming.

Do we have any NPC spellcasters in the rebellion who might help us out?

Oh, thanks for reminding me! There's the fashionable tiefling tailor and Milanite cleric Haetamon Haace, who we’ve helped out before, and we know for a fact could handle a water breathing. He’d probably give us a good deal, especially if we offer to share the space with his cult. I love the idea of an ecumenical sort of space for all the good-hearted proscribed religions to share while we work on ousting Thrune. And it would make it easier to redecorate than if just one of us had to supply everything. :)

So, keeping a tentative tab:
iron spike of safe passage – 2 000 gp
scroll(s) of water breathing – 375 gp each
casting of same by 3rd party – 150 gp
scroll(s) of touch of the sea – 25 gp each (at CL 1, etc.)

Honestly, I’m not sure why we couldn’t just walk through the flooded level, though it would take a bit longer. Although Fulk could learn touch of the sea and splash it around, so we wouldn’t just be mucking around with UMD checks. Certainly something any of us could do, pending availability, with their share of what we’ve just found. And we have a ring of swimming up for grabs.

Still, 2 900 gp and change (up to 3 000) should get us most all of what we want, I think, including 2 back-up scrolls beyond having water breathing cast on us.

How’s that, then?

I would suggest air crystals for the emergency need air, due to spell being dispelled, and need to breathe until we get a spell re-cast on them.

Good shout on air crystals.

The spike can wait until we are sure this is a good base. If clearing out the lower level changes things then it might be a waste.

Honestly, I’m not sure why we couldn’t just walk through the flooded level, though it would take a bit longer. Although Fulk could learn touch of the sea and splash it around, so we wouldn’t just be mucking around with UMD checks. Certainly something any of us could do, pending availability, with their share of what we’ve just found. And we have a ring of swimming up for grabs.

I did not think about that. I just thought I read that it was flooded and assumed we would need to dive.

Is there any way to check? We're not on the clock here so maybe we could enter the lower level and then see how things are.

Where is the entrance?

Hey I was also under the impression that the level was completely flooded.
As it is, if the depth gets over 4' I am going to have issues.

So while we are looking at these levels, I would like to use the cloak of the manta.

I’m sorry, I just realized that that didn’t sound the way I meant it. I think the next level probably is completely flooded: I was just thinking, if the ceilings aren’t particularly high, maybe we could just walk along the “seafloor,” as it were, rather than worrying about swimming. Not as quick, I guess, but if we get something as long-lasting as water breathing, that might not be an issue.

Just me being lazy, since I don’t think there are any low-level warpriest spells that help with swimming, and short of passing the short straw to Fulk or messing around trying to find scrolls at a higher caster level, I’m not sure it’s worth the fuss.

We could take a quick look – the entrance to the next level is through C16 and a bit of “Open sesame!”

Anyway, since I don’t want to bore anyone to death with logistics, how’s this sound, pending DM approval, given what I’m hearing and what I’m not hearing from you guys.

Oh gods, will that elf witch ever get to the point:
1) We’ll buy a couple of scrolls of water breathing, and see if our friend Haetamon would be willing to cast it on us directly tomorrow morning. (Funding from the general rebellion stash / undivided loot.) Ragnar could wear the cloak of the manta ray, and Bran the ring of swimming.

2) Bit trickier, and a bit reckless, but if we can find either a gillman by the docks or some really curious mage who would be able to give us access, if our DM is up for it, Ado could try to wrap her head around this nifty spell (aboleth's lung), just to have in her back pocket even if we don’t use it right away. It’s a rare spell that the rules call out as requiring DM permission for non-gillmen to learn, but Ado would be willing to splash the money for a scroll or even a bit of a premium for the privilege, to represent the rarity even though it’s on the prepared divine caster lists.

3) Beyond that, we split the jewels we just found and go to town for anything that catches our eye, with the understanding that we should all get at least one air crystal for emergencies. That gives us 400 gp each to have fun with for preparing for underwater fun, with minor scrolls, alchemical gear, or whatever.

If we get touch of the sea then Bran can go tiger-mode underwater.

However, he will need someone to feed him air crystals if there was an emergency.

Sounds like a rough plan. But I think the proper burial should come before anything else

Honestly, don't remember enough about PF spells or magic items to feel comfortable forming an opinion.

You can find an elderly gillman by the docks who would be able to sell you the aboleth's lung spell.

Great, I'll do that!

FYI for the other PCs: Adonara will prepare the spell accordingly, just in case, but I won't blame anyone for not wanting to go that route if we can get water breathing from Haetamon or scrolls, just on the creepiness factor and how much unfun (in-character) it might be to sit in the water with aboleth's lung if we finish up early while the spell wears off. (Unlike water breathing, for folks back home, you trade off the ability to breath air, and it's not dismissable.)

Adonara, warpriests (like clerics) do not need to learn spells. You have access to the whole spell list.

Bran will buy a wand of touch of the sea with 12 charges, if he can. It’s 180gp. Bran and Fulk can both activate it.

Do we have a wand of CLW ??
If not, I suggest that we get one.

We do indeed! Feel free to add it to your inventory, and I’ll make a note of it on the loot spreadsheet.

Adonara, warpriests (like clerics) do not need to learn spells. You have access to the whole spell list.

I know, but that’s hard to square with the hand-wavy rarity of racial and religious spells, so I’m happy to treat it as something one has to learn, and at closer to the cost of a scroll than just consulting a spellbook. *Puts on fancy courtesan airs.* At the end of the day, it’s only money, after all. :)

Aah, I missed the racial requirement.

Makes sense.

As far as magic items go, Til has a UMD of +11.

In common cases, like wands, he has a better than 50% chance of activation.

Never forget the shake it till it works option!