The Masters of Golarion

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@Skulda: I do have the Golden Phoenix Tournament available, I think one of my friends have it. I also have Champion's Belt from the Age of Worms so I have plenty of inspiration.

Hmm, planar tournament huh? That has definite possibilities. It sounds pretty cool actually. Reminds me of a D20 Modern (future) game I once played where there were multiple teams playing on a battleground that was many miles wide and when you got to the edge of the battlefield we were dimensionally teleported to another themed battleground. It was cool till we realized that the GM kept screwing us on everything.

Herald, can we get a couple answers on the FAQ? I'm still curious about using Fabricate to craft spell components.

@Skulda Looking at your stats, a Narn starts with:

Your score / racial start/ adds
STR 34/25 + 4 advanced? Where is the other +5 from?
Dex 27/14 + 2 advanced? Where is the other +11 from?
Con 38/30 + 2 advanced? Where is the other +6 from?
Int 32/21 + 6 for headband +2 advanced? Where is the other +3 from?
Wis 36/24 + 6 for headband +4 advanced? Where is the other +2 from?
Cha 42/31 + 6 for headband +4 advanced? Where is the other +1 from?

I don't see inherent bonuses from tomes/manuals spent on your character sheet. This is too much for squeezing in level buy on a monster race too.

With point buy to start your attributes, you have
STR +14, DEX +4, CON +20, INT +10, WIS +14, CHA +10 (and subtract 5 for level bonuses) This still leaves too many points unaccounted for.

What am i missing?

Plus, I thought we weren't stacking templates on monster races. Do norns don't count that way?

I thought we didn't even stack templates.

Well, I currently only have the Confused template. :)

I am stacking the following templates:

Alright, we seem to be all on different pages, so I asked the question in the FAQ. What do you all prefer we rule for templates?

I don't think I'm using a template. But seems like me and Pirate are the only ones.

I was just playing around.

... which inadvertently also gave her the Humorous template.

sheesh.. what a munchkin. :D

I would be fine with one template on a base race, but not on top of a monster race.

I will probably go with Advanced on a human.

I actually have a question about possibly modifying the Half-Celestial template, but its gonna need to wait till I get home.

Also, I don't suppose I could build a custom race? After all, we have a dragon and a norn, and I definitely won't make anything that powerful.

The FAQ has a 'no' for ARG races (which I assume extends to custom races).

No custom races please. Just for ease of looking up and familiarity.

Have we decided on if we're crafting for each other or not, yet? We haven't really come to a consensus in the FAQ.

If we are, I think we should work something out on that sort of thing. Who else even has crafting feats?

My guy also has no template, pure human :)
I'm ok with the planar tourny as long as it doesn't turn into to much pvp. It would just be rocket tag at this level: P aside from that I think it is a great idea for "containing" this game into something managable :)
Hmmm.... I am thinking of switching to an asterion alchemist, if it is ok to play one. Why do I always gravitate to alchemist?

I will knock off one or both templates if necessary, but I never saw a final definitive decision from Herald, so I was waiting to be told I had to. I would really prefer to keep the half-celestial because it's part of her backstory. Without it the character doesn't really work. Norns normally operate as trios which share a soul. The idea was her celestial blood not only swayed her out of neutrality, it's also what allows her to operate independently of her mother/sisters.

As for stats, let me see. I haven't actually looked at them since I made the character for the first epic campaign. I just assumed I did it right the first time without thinking about there might have been different character creation rules that I wasn't remembering.

Str:25 (norn) + 4 (advanced) + 4 (half-celestial) + 1 (HD advancement)=34

Dex:14 (norn) + 4 advanced + 2 (half-celestial) + 6 (belt) +1 (HD advancement)=27

Con:30 (norn) + 4 (advanced) + 4 (half-celestial)=38

Int:21 (norn) + 4 (advanced) + 2 (half-celestial) + 6 (headband)=33 (one higher than's on my sheet)

Wis:24 (norn) + 4 (advanced) + 2 (half-celestial) + 6 (headband)=36

Cha:31 (norn) + 4 (advanced) + 4 (half-celestial) + 6 (headband) + 3 (HD advancement)=48 (6 higher than on my sheet)

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So actually, yeah...the stats on my sheet are lower than they should be. I will wait to hear the final word from Herald on templates before I make any changes to the sheet. I'm perfectly aware that the advanced template is "cheesy" as it gives more bang for your buck than a level in any class ever could. It makes any character regardless of class/race better. So probably either everyone should take it, or no one should be allowed to.

That template does seem hugely effective. I've been tempted more times than once to take it, but I think I should still refrain.

Yar!

I'm still humming and hawing over it (the Advanced Template) as well, mostly now as a way to reduce gear costs by not purchasing any manuals or tomes and instead using the Advanced Template to get all those stat boosts. The loss suffered from having 1 less level is mitigated by that template as well (Favored Enemy goes from +4 to +2, but Advanced Template adds that lost +2 back and applies it to everything, not just the Favored Enemy). The only things that are solid negatives are the level 5 class ability lost (for Skirmisher, I would take the ability to reroll a missed attack 8 times a day), and the level 25 feat. Everything else is a plus.

~P

@Skulda in order to get HD advancement bonuses (assume you mean the +1 per 4 HD) you would have to first subtract them from the base Norn, since monster templates already add them in.

As for the advanced template, may as well say everyone gets it or no one.

I'd rather not, as getting the template would force me to get rid of three high level spells. And I enjoy my spells.

Validk - Ah, I didn't think about that for the HD advacement points. Since I have no way of knowing where designers put them when they made the monster I guess I just have to keep them as is. Though I would prefer to move 1 point from Int to Str making Int 32 and Str 34. Then just ignore the ones on Cha making it 45. If not I'll just drop 8k for a slotless +2 str enhancement item.

RE:Advanced template - I would only gain another level of monk out of losing the template, so it would be a definite loss for me. That's fine though, Skulda will still be formidable and completely playable without it.

I'm now updated with an alternative build, using the Advanced Template (so I caved a little, but mostly to see how it might work).

The good news is, by removing the manuals & tomes and using the Advanced Template for the stat boosts instead, I am now only 140k over budget (as opposed to the 1.05 million I was over before).

If I use this build, and we are allowed even limited crafting for each other, (even something like 2 or 3 items), then I'm golden.

Otherwise I may have to reduce Carolinus' Int score by 5 points and get ride of something else... but that would be sad. Heck, I already sent Giles and the caravan home.

I voted 'yes' to a single template on non-HD races on the FAQ, but I'd be totally fine with going with a straight 'no templates' or 'no advanced template', too.

Well, if the information at the top of the FAQ is accurate then Skulda would only be legal for the game with no templates. No templates at all invalidates the character to the point that I'd not want to play her. Can I get a ruling in this thread from Herald of Omens about the final word on templates? Or at least about Skulda specifically? Thanks.

Is the template that important? Couldn't you take some levels in Cleric to get some of those features back?

If everyone else wants to allow template stacking on any PC (no stroud or otherwise), i can always rethink my character. I just don't see my current character being much help against some of the others.

I could always revisit my initial concept just simply using a summoner.

I have the same reservation at times. Just want to be helpful is all.

The FAQ says no templates at all with monster races at the top. If skulda can't be half-celestial I'd rather just come up with a completely different character or not play. The advanced template I don't care about.

Well, I guess it's just easier to deal with monsters that way. Especially when comparing abilities with everyone else.

Also, LM, did you see my query about rods? Because I think we could end up sharing.

No, I missed it, but I'm interested in your hearing your idea.

Alright, we seem to be all on different pages, so I asked the question in the FAQ. What do you all prefer we rule for templates?

I'm fine with using templates, that's what they are there for. For the record, I am using Advanced and Element-Infused (air) for Callant.

EDIT: if we are asked to keep it to one template, then I would likely drop both of what I have and switch to the half-celestial, since it would make some logical sense, being an aasimar. I would only ask that Callant not have wings, and is able to just fly 'naturally.' I realize that it sounds illogical, but I always liked the magical ability to fly, as opposed to trying to wedge a pair of wings through a normal door.

If we have to drop templates altogether, then I'll take 2 additional levels of oracle.

Also, I'm totally cool with Herald's concept for the campaign. As long as things can remain interesting, this could really grow some legs.

I found a Dragon-blooded template, which is a 3pp template that is very similar to Celestial/Fiendish.

I gain a +1 to Natural Armor, Darkvision 60', Low-Light vision, and Str and Cha +2.

It gains a couple of other things, but they are rendered pointless via my class levels.

Would it be ok to take this template? Since it doesn't gain any scaling powers, I figure it would be a +0 template, much like the other ones its akin to.

Yar!

I've said this before (I think it got lost to the bowels of the thread... ah, there it is, halfway down page 11), but I personally think that allowing templates on monstrous races makes more sense than allowing it for core races only (unless part of the theme is "paragons of your area", in which case I'd vote for Advanced for everyone for free).

I also feel that allowing templates on monstrous races is not more complex than on core races with class levels, but in fact quite the reverse. Heck, templates were designed specifically FOR quick and easy monster advancement. Again, this is just my opinion.

At this point in time though, especially seeing some of the characters that have emerged from it, my vote would be for "Templates are optional, but if you choose to use one, it can be applied regardless of your starting race. You may have only one template though, and must use it's CR increase as an effective class level to determine your total level/HD (not to exceed 25)".

(Only because I have personally done some insane template stacking in the past, mostly 3.5, to absurd effect).

... Honestly, I think that templates on monstrous races makes more sense than templates on base races with class levels. Perhaps Herald will reconsider after looking over your character (skulda) and seeing that it's really not any more complicated than any of the non-templated characters.

At least, I'm hoping so.

In fact, just having 20 - 25 PC class levels is, in my opinion, significantly more complicated than a monstrous race with templates. Of course, this could simply be just me.

~P

Seems like there's a lot to template stacking.

It seems that some are in favor of at least one template. It also looks like that if templates are allowed then we should get only one. That being said my dragon would get nasty very quickly if I took more than one. An advanced half-celestial, giant ancient silver dragon?

Hero Lab makes it out to be quite insane with them all. The HD would stay at 25 and the CR would be 24, up from 19. Ick.

Should it come down to it and it is determined that we get access to templates for monsters, I say no more than one template allowed.

See, that's one of the biggest things I don't understand about CR. Templates don't always give HD. Ergo, the HD/CR limit doesn't ensure that everyone would be on the same level, power wise. Furthermore, if a PC has a CR of their HD-1, then it seems like even if they have 25 HD, they're not equal to someone whose chosen to take a template stacked character with 25 CR.

I dunno, might just be me, but something seems up.

I found a Dragon-blooded template, which is a 3pp template that is very similar to Celestial/Fiendish.

I gain a +1 to Natural Armor, Darkvision 60', Low-Light vision, and Str and Cha +2.

It gains a couple of other things, but they are rendered pointless via my class levels.

Would it be ok to take this template? Since it doesn't gain any scaling powers, I figure it would be a +0 template, much like the other ones its akin to.

That sounds fine to me, I would also probably consider it a +0 template, it is lots weaker than advanced and the vision/armor you can easily get via items.

I feel like that would be a bad idea. With a lot of these templates, you get more than any class levels would give for the investment. With a +0 CR template, there's no mechanical reason not to take it.

The Fiendish, Celestial, and other similar templates are +0 or +1 depending on the base creature, but that is because they grant greater power if you posses more HD.

Just like the Half-Celestial/Fiend CR goes up based on HD.

My vote is anyone can take any single template regardless of race.

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In my opinion our power level should be calculated as monster hit dice+CR from templates+class levels. Or (class levels-1)+CR from templates if you are a 0 HD race with your only HD coming from class levels. That's how Skulda is done.

Norn are technically CR 18, but they have 20 HD. So if I went with CR 18 + 3 half celestial + 1 advanced + 1 monk = CR 23. Meaning I could still take 2 more levels of something. But I've calculated based on HD. 20 + 3 half-celestial + 1 advanced + 1 monk = 25.

Ancient silver dragon had 25 HD, so it can't take any templates or levels. Even though it's only CR 19.

Doppelganger's rocking 4 HD even though it's a CR 3. So that should give Validk 21 class levels. Or 21 class levels minus the CR of whatever template he might take.

Everyone else could be 26th level characters or 25th levels with a CR 1 template, 24 levels with a CR 2 template, etc.

It's the most fair way to do it, since CR isn't supposed to be a measure of PC power to begin with. It's supposed to be for monsters. And characters get their base abilities from HD (HP, BAB, Saves) not from their CR.

Sorry to double post, but +0 CR templates won't be an issue. The only way a template is +0 is if the creature you are applying it to has under five hit dice normally. None of us will qualify for that.

Thanks, Skulda, this is exactly what I was thinking earlier this afternoon.

Yar!

... Golden Phoenix Tournament ...

I was perusing the books at my FLGS and saw it from the corner of my eye. Did not pick it up. However, it is actually called the...

*drum-roll*

Ruby Phoenix Tournament

:D

~P

Yeah I remembered it was Ruby later, but I knew that the Gm knew what I was talking about. So I didn't bother correcting it before :P Thanks though!

The two that are rendered a non factor are Resistance and the Saves.

Now, it seems based on the wording that you can choose any resistance you want, but that makes no sense to me. Usually how these things work, is you gain the benefit based on the dragon you're descendant from. Half-Dragon, Dragon-Blooded Sorc, etc all work that way.

So, Zashier would gain fire resistance, but he gains fire immunity due to having the bloodline powers of a 20th level Sorc.

Same with the saves. Zash is also immune to sleep and paralysis.

Not sure if he's considered a dragon or not, but that would give him immunity to Charm or Dominate person.

It doesn't matter if it ends up +0 or +1, as if we stick by the one template rule, this is all he'll take.

Where is Herald? I was wondering when we'd get a ruling on these.

We seem to keep getting confused about CR with monsters and pcs, and pcs playing monsters.

Not picking on GMV, just using this as an example.

HD 25, CR 19.

A party of four typical, 0 CR race players with class levels of 19 will find this to be a good challenge. Hence the Challenge Rating (CR) of 19.

Now, if we are going to allow monster races and base races and use this number 25 as a limiter, we MUST take into consideration from which viewpoint we are counting "CR".

I'm hoping GMV was joking when he said that he should be able to take on a bunch of templates to his CR 19 dragon because his CR and HD would still be = or under 25.

I think a few people are trying to over think this. Take your base creature's CR or HD, whichever is higher. Subtract from an UNLABELED number of 25. The result is the number of class levels, templates, or combination there-of that you have to work with.

For GMV, his ancient silver dragon is CR 19, HD 25. The higher is 25, 25 less 25 is zero. HE's done.

My doppelganger is HD 3, CR 4. 25 less 4 leaves 21. I can add templates and class levels where the CR of the templates and the class levels equal 21.

Sir Orrin is a halfling, that's a zero. 25 less zero leaves him 25 units of levels and templates. HE has selected cavalier 20/ranger 5.

Skulda has a norn, which is CR 18, HD 20. 25 less 20 gives him 5 units of CR and levels. He spends this on advanced +1 CR, half-celestial +3 CR, and 2 levels of monk.

There isn't any other way I know to do this that comes close to being equitable. If anyone has a suggestion, I'd like to hear it.

Way I see it, it kinda has to be like this, otherwise many would be scrambling for low CR high HD to make godlike monsters that would make many GM's cry.