Based on what has happened in the first round alone, there appears to be no way in H*ll that anyone will survive this encounter. It just seems unfortunate that everyone in the group needs to suffer a TPK because of my role play choice.
Could you consider letting his wrath be sated by kicking the sh*t out of Xanthar? That way my character can get the a** whipping he has earned and the rest of the party doesn't have to die because of my choice. I am going to feel really horrible if this ends the way it looks like it is going to end. I just (re)joined the group, I really don't want to be the guy who got everybody killed. Let Xan be the sacrificial lamb and the group can give him half the loot like he demanded and continue playing...please. PLEASE!
We can see how it plays out. This is now the eighth time I ran this, and the third time PCs attacked or antagonized the King straight away.
Well, if it is really bad, we can start the Desert of Desolation Series early. This was not one of the easier adventures. But then Tracy Hickman was no pushover either.
Were these also the modules before running away started to hardly ever work I hope? :D
Ruuunnn!!!!
This is definitely going to be ugly...
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Last time Bizzlemont follows a dwarf! :)
I've played D&D many years and I have NEVER had an encounter like this.
Random bandit pops up as you enter dungeon, demands large portion of treasure, if denied utterly ridiculous demand proceeds to slaughter everyone because he is essentially a demi-god in human form. I'm sorry for what happened but I plead ignorance to this kind of situation as my defense.
Whoever wrote this module should be shot or, even worse, forced to attend a Justin Bieber/Miley Cyrus concert.
I am at 4 hp after that first round. At best I will be at 10 hp assuming a maxed out LoH. He can simply kill me next turn if he so wishes. Wouldn't even blink an eyelid I suspect.
Actually, Cole, I think you are unconscious at -3 HP right now. The "Dude" hit you for 22 and the wolf hit you for 9 more; your hp is listed as 28 so 28-31 = -3. Remember we are flat footed until our first action so your AC is only 20 until your first action so the wolf just hit you. It was the same for me. My normal AC is 24 and the wolf would have missed but as I am flat-footed he hit me for 9 damage and was able to knock me down.
Well, we can call this. I know the CR level mindset is now the status quo. Players expect not to encounter something that can beat them anymore.
Cole can tell you this is not the first complaint of OP encounters I have received. It is best to resolve them quickly.
I have yet to spend the hours on the five level dungeon map!
Well, we can call this. I know the CR level mindset is now the status quo. Players expect not to encounter something that can beat them anymore.
Cole can tell you this is not the first complaint of OP encounters I have received. It is best to resolve them quickly.
I have yet to spend the hours on the five level dungeon map!
Like I said, I have played D&D since 1981 and I never encountered anything like this. Were things tougher in the old days? Yep. Were they absolutely ludicrously unbeatable? Nope.
I guess I came from a different experience but no one that I ever played with would ever consider just giving some random bandit a bunch of loot simply because he asked for it. Thus my reaction.
I don't want this to come across as a personal attack against you, Tribute, as you are one of the few guys on this board who runs games that I like. I was just completely out of my depth on this issue and I am still a little shell-shocked. I couldn't care less about Xanthar getting killed but I feel absolutely horrible having been responsible for the demise of the entire group.
It's probably best that I (once again) bow out of this campaign as I simply don't feel comfortable about what I was just responsible for. Again, everyone, I am REALLY sorry about what happened.
I'm not even going to post in the gameplay section for Xanthar's turn, just say that the wolf's knockdown attack pushed him off the edge of the cliff or something. Maybe that will satiate the demi-god's need for vengeance.
Hey, hey! It is not done until it is done! Lets at least give it a SERIOUS try - just imagine we somehowm miraculously win!
Terion will be boasting about it for AGES :D
Logan, you can of course do whatever you wish, but I would like to see this combat to its full completion, and you participating in it.
Okay, I'll try to help you guys survive this cluster-(bleep) I got you into. I think the best help I can be will be to try to grab the wolf in front of me and wrestle him off the cliff. That way I can eliminate one threat and make a "heroic" exit as well.
Again...everyone...I am so freakin sorry about this.
Logan1138...I don't think anyone is upset with you. These things happen, especially in PbP games. We don't have the face to face interaction like we get with tabletop games, so things like this happen.
We have spider climby boots, we can just run down the cliff face.
From my point of view, the DM gave clues that this guy outclassed us, and he specifically used the word parley to describe his opening behavior. Just like the last encounter, where the priest had 40 goblins and he skipped his participation in a potential surprise round to parley and we opened fire.
I don't think the way GM described this guy conveyed a sense of "random bandit". I for one got the feeling he could toast us.
I also think it's fine that someone played their character the way they want and we have to live with consequences. A brash greedy dwarf is a classic trope and no one seems to mind that Logan played his dwarf that way. In a group this size there was bound to be someone like that. Headstrong barbarian, murderous or greedy rogue. Someone would have screwed up the diplomacy.
That's what running away is for, right?
We have spider climby boots, we can just run down the cliff face.
From my point of view, the DM gave clues that this guy outclassed us, and he specifically used the word parley to describe his opening behavior. Just like the last encounter, where the priest had 40 goblins and he skipped his participation in a potential surprise round to parley and we opened fire.
I don't think the way GM described this guy conveyed a sense of "random bandit". I for one got the feeling he could toast us.
I also think it's fine that someone played their character the way they want and we have to live with consequences. A brash greedy dwarf is a classic trope and no one seems to mind that Logan played his dwarf that way. In a group this size there was bound to be someone like that. Headstrong barbarian, murderous or greedy rogue. Someone would have screwed up the diplomacy.
That's what running away is for, right?
Ah, but are we actually wearing the boots right now? I don't know that Xanthar would be wearing them just for traveling. He'd probably wear his personal boots and only use the "special" ones as needed.
I guess I'm going to have to make a radical shift in my gaming. I last played using 1st Edition AD&D rules (I am really new to Pathfinder) and Diplomacy wasn't an official skill back then (there were no skills per se). In our group, Diplomacy just wasn't something we used. If a bandit came up and demanded out stuff, we (correctly) assumed that he was intended to be a combat encounter so we told him to go fly a kite and combat began. We never went up against someone so much more powerful than us that the proper course of action was to roll over, expose our bellies like a pup and accede to his demands. That was my mistake here. I never dreamed that we would actually be faced with something like this.
Hmmmm but really now... Was anyone willing to simply give up HALF of whatever we recover? Really?
I'll be honest and upfront here, Terion would not do it, so if it hadn't been for Xanthar's reaction, it would have been mine.
Of course, I think we still had some wiggle room for diplomatic action but hey - that is out the window now, so we need to be on our "A game" to at least have a shot at this guy. I'm not even going to consider his numbers, just play as smart as I can.
After we have won, then we can discuss and scold at one another :D
I don't think you be sorry for properly role-playing a dwarf. If you've read The Silmarillion, the book is full of dwarfs doing pretty much exactly what you just did.
Specifically,
The Nauglamír was a gift from the dwarves to Finrod Felagund of Nargothrond. From the ruins of Nargothrond, Húrin brought the Nauglamir to Doriath and gave it to Thingol as payment for the care Húrin's family had received while Húrin was imprisoned by Morgoth. Thingol had the Nauglamir reforged by the Dwarves of Belegost to hold and enhance a Silmaril which Beren and Lúthien had retrieved from Morgoth's crown (and the great wolf Carcharoth's maw). The Dwarves had been invited to Menegroth by Thingol to create jewelry out of the immense treasure, and the Nauglamír was their best work.
Thingol prized it above everything else in his treasury, save the Silmaril of Lúthien and Beren. After the Nauglamír had been reforged he asked the Dwarves of Nogrod to set the Silmaril in it, which they did. Together it became jewelry more beautiful than anything ever before seen in Arda. The Dwarves were enthralled by it as well, and greedily demanded it from Thingol, claiming it as just payment for their labours (and that Húrin and Thingol had no right to appropriate the Dwarves' gift to Finrod). Thingol realized they wished to gain the Silmaril, and after insulting the dwarves as uncouth, stunted people, ordered them to depart from Doriath without any payment. In response the dwarves slew him, which eventually led to the withdrawal of the Girdle of Melian from Doriath and to the sack of Doriath by the Dwarves of Nogrod.
Word of the Dwarves' treachery reached Beren, and he, with an army of the Laiquendi, waylaid the dwarves en route to Nogrod as they passed Sarn Athrad. The Dwarves were slain, and those who attempted to escape were destroyed by the Ents.
Responding to your ooc post in the game play thread, Terion...
My initiative result was higher than Bizz's, so my actions actually should take place before his despite the fact that I posted after him. So, when it was Xanthar's turn, no one had been stunned yet by Bizz's spell. That was why I wrote my post the way I did. Btw, I don't think having 4 legs gives an advantage against Bull Rush. I looked up the various combat maneuvers before making my choice and I only saw 4 legs providing a bonus aginst the Trip maneuver. Unfortunately, I don't think my roll is going to be high enough to have any effect. :(
R\Btw, I don't think having 4 legs gives an advantage against Bull Rush. I looked up the various combat maneuvers before making my choice and I only saw 4 legs providing a bonus aginst the Trip maneuver.
That's good to know, I thought it would too.
So we're all clear:
A stunned creature drops everything held, can't take actions, takes a –2 penalty to AC, and loses its Dexterity bonus to AC (if any).
Attackers receive a +4 bonus on attack rolls to perform combat maneuvers against a stunned opponent.
And no hard feelings Xanthar. This is fun!
I don't think you be sorry for properly role-playing a dwarf. If you've read The Silmarillion, the book is full of dwarfs doing pretty much exactly what you just did.
Specifically,
The Nauglamír was a gift from the dwarves to Finrod Felagund of Nargothrond. From the ruins of Nargothrond, Húrin brought the Nauglamir to Doriath and gave it to Thingol as payment for the care Húrin's family had received while Húrin was imprisoned by Morgoth. Thingol had the Nauglamir reforged by the Dwarves of Belegost to hold and enhance a Silmaril which Beren and Lúthien had retrieved from Morgoth's crown (and the great wolf Carcharoth's maw). The Dwarves had been invited to Menegroth by Thingol to create jewelry out of the immense treasure, and the Nauglamír was their best work.
Thingol prized it above everything else in his treasury, save the Silmaril of Lúthien and Beren. After the Nauglamír had been reforged he asked the Dwarves of Nogrod to set the Silmaril in it, which they did. Together it became jewelry more beautiful than anything ever before seen in Arda. The Dwarves were enthralled by it as well, and greedily demanded it from Thingol, claiming it as just payment for their labours (and that Húrin and Thingol had no right to appropriate the Dwarves' gift to Finrod). Thingol realized they wished to gain the Silmaril, and after insulting the dwarves as uncouth, stunted people, ordered them to depart from Doriath without any payment. In response the dwarves slew him, which eventually led to the withdrawal of the Girdle of Melian from Doriath and to the sack of Doriath by the Dwarves of Nogrod.
Word of the Dwarves' treachery reached Beren, and he, with an army of the Laiquendi, waylaid the dwarves en route to Nogrod as they passed Sarn Athrad. The Dwarves were slain, and those who attempted to escape were destroyed by the Ents.
In the Silmarillion even the Elves were ready to leave Valinor and fight Morgoth just to recover a few gems (i.e. the Three Silmarils) and elves are supposed to be the peace-loving flower children of D&D.
Deal Xanthar, I actually didn't mean they would have any particular bonus, but simply a higher CMD - not sure though.
And thanks for the details Bizzle - it seems we will have a free round guys, as they can't take any actions - wolves will not act, and the King will not act on his next round - we gotta make it COUNT.
Fortunately, Terion goes AFTER Bizzle ;)
My mind is boiling, so I think I'll just go ahead and post in Gameplay, and let GM Tribute adjudicate - Terion wants to ACT (and by acting I mean doing something else besides bleeding)! :D
In the Silmarillion even the Elves were ready to leave Valinor and fight Morgoth just to recover a few gems (i.e. the Three...
Oh, the irony!
I think I am going to try and trip the King - what kind of numbers do you guys think we are looking at here, as far as CMD on his end?
Trip the King - MUAH!
I dunno, at least 20.
But I don't think meta-gamey peeking behind the curtain is going get us anywhere. My feeling is that GM Tribute runs fast and loose sort of like we used to back in the day. Using what some people call "DM Fiat". I'm just guessing, and I'm not attaching value judgemnents to any of that.
The king and wolves are stunned= drop items and no AoOs. But as the rest of the wolves have yet to go and we are already looking at attrition already, things will probably get worse when the rest of the pack attacks. An OP encounter will get more so.
So, the probability of winning with no character deaths is very low. And given that character deaths seem to cause drops in PbP, we may not need to continue.
The main problem is this module is very unforgiving to brute force hack and slash. It is more subtle than the typical dungeon crawls.
I hear you.
In the old days our joke when things were going bad was "I am ready to roll 4d6s six times and drop the lowest!"
Yup!
So, the probability of winning with no character deaths is very low. And given that character deaths seem to cause drops in PbP, we may not need to continue.
So are you calling the game GM?
What is the difference between simply cutting the game short, and all of us dying? That may be important information to make a decision. I still think we could win this fight ;)
We can certainly try! Who knows?
Let me know what you want?
Retcon to the first meeting.
Have a powerful force (probably Morlean ) intervene on your behalf if PCs may die.
Try to beat a nasty encounter against a powerful foe and risk massive pc death.
Scrap this and try a traditional balanced paizo AP.
Let me know if anyone wants to drop. That will make the decision process easier.
My vote would be to run like hell, but I won't enter a vote because I don't think I can stay in this game long anyway, no matter what happens. I want to focus on the one I'm running.
FYI, I absolutely love the tone of this adventure and I have no objection to it's balance. When I saw that guy come out of the cave with the wolves, I thought he might be an avatar of a deity or something else mythic like that.
My personal opinion is to try and beat the encounter (or successfully run away - an outcome much more probably to leave at least some of the party alive), and if we wipe, move on to another module. Even thinking about a retcon or "deus ex machina" rescue just leaves a sour taste for me. If we try and fail, at least we tried. The whole premise of the game series was to experience "early" modules, so I don't particularly care for a Paizo AP, either.
I honestly have nothing against running, but still think we can tackle this if we organize - as I said, the wolves are not acting this round, we still are waiting to know if the Hold Person works - if it does, the King is gonna eat a CDG or two, and that WILL hurt him. Maybe we can cast grease on some wolves, or use another color spray - I'm not even checking Bizzlemonts', Lamriels' or Fornitado's spell list, so as not to make this an exercise in OOC ;)
And I am with Strang on this, though the "wipe -> move to another module" process has been something that I always had a hard time to manage. Because you are simply scrapping a perfectly good module.
No retcon for me either - it is what it is, and if nothing else, a learning process for at least, the next time around having a rogue scouting point.
That being said, I am not leaving regardless of the decision of what to play next, but I would like to stick with the old school modules if possible - GM will plays a huge part on this too, because if GM Tribute is not having fun, no one will.
My votes:
- Run the encounter to whatever conclusion (whether running or fighting);
- Stick with old school modules feel
Ok, his AC is going to be crazy I bet. Better to try and get him off the cliff then do hp damage maybe? How many people can aid another on a bullrush or grapple/pin/move?
My spells with DC's aren't high enough to help. I can shoot arrows, sing songs, or expeditious retreat.
Or I can try to hypnotise or confusion some wolves.
If he kicks this hard in melee, his Will saves can't be THAT good ;)
Probably makes my DC 14 will saves 75-85% of the time? Not good odds but not quite a hail mary either.
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Could this encounter show why it is never safe to count heroes out, even without hero points!?!?
King should remain stunned until Bizzle's turn, right? 1 full round.
Yes--and Cole's dog wants some revenge.
Well, I think this will not end too badly now. There may be a face saving way out of this for both sides :-)