|
Don't get me wrong, I'd rather not switch. I like this character and pure tanks have never been my thing, I'm just thinking for the good of the group.
Just putting it on record that Emrys is prepared to fall on his wand in favour of Tanky McBigbiceps (you guys might have to help me with the name though)
Emrys, no way you will do that, just play what you want to play - heck, if worse comes to worse, why not a "tank/controller" mage? And don't worry, in a couple of levels Zeriax can be an archer AND a frontliner - just watch him go! :D
And guys, I'm going full out meta here (apologies GM-JC) - if there are vulnerabilities to the enemies we face, make sure to shout them out - specific ammo is not that hard to come by so Zeriax can be more efficient with that info.
For example, he's had cold iron brass knuckles since level 1 ;)
And a quiverfull of cold iron arrows...
Exactly, but he will not use them just because he has them there - he is expecting advice from his scholar companions :D
Don't look at Megekki when you say that. :)
If he didn't have Scribe Scroll, I'd wonder if he's literate.
He may just draw stick figures, or detailed glyphs-as-masks, I suppose.
But no, he'll be sharing with Emrys, so probably regular scrolls.
My Pathfinder Society Tank over there begs to differ - With him there on the baddies face, and just throwing some random percentages, one of those Concentration (or Cast Defensively for the oldies like me :D) would have failed... and the bad guy would be eating some damage.
Thing is, the "tank" can afford to be "in your face", and he prevents you from doing stuff..
In any case, I'd rather the group stayed as it is - "out of the box" is FUN, and I would love to see Emrys evolve into something no one expects him to be.
|
Yeah, but that requires feating into step up and the such, which very few tanks do...and even then, it's hardly a way to stop every spellcaster. I've had players at my table feat heavily into it.... with all the class deals to make casting defensively rather hard. I know. And, keep in mind, it doesn't affect spell like and super natural effects like breath attcks.
I've played a lot of Pathfinder....and the thing is, without taunt mechanics and the such, a tank is useful but hardly essential.. Personally, I don't build a party without one if I can help it, I just don't think it means a party is at a devastating disadvantage without one.
Don't take this the wrong way...nothing against PFS (I'm a VC, after all), but the encounters in those are hardly challenging against most parties.... save for maybe some of the season 4 dealies. The NPCs are awefully vanilla, and well put together builds will totally pwn the majority of encounters there. Outside of that, especially if GM's throw enemy parities of similar level vs. you and such, there's just too much going on for a tank to effectively control everything.
Meg dropped the stone. And tried to command the devil. Since Meg was ignored, there's some sort of filtering going on there, maybe based on the Devil's specialization, or the module's text, maybe.
The legalistic devil perhaps understandably assumed we knew the terms of whatever agreement he appeared under. Or perhaps the GM just wanted plot-fuzziness for what 'blood' meant. But the devil surely never smoothly negotiated; he may as well have been asking for an Umpa-lumpa, NOW, Daddy, NOW! It wasn't wrong of us to refuse, or to support Emrys. Maybe we die, that's why it's 'adventuring'. :)
A proper degree of In-character caution might have used DetMag 10 rounds on the stone, the room, the altar... and resulted in the kind of pacing that kills games. A proper degree of player caution would have us running from anything the GM brings up three separate times. :) Also not healthy for games. Like the man says, "To boldly go".
It's TPK or victory, I'd guess. Zeriax can maybe CdG, but he doesn't know what materials to use (if we even have them). And CdG has been toned down, I'm not sure how it compares anymore. Zeriax doesn't have time to drag us all clear before the Devil awakens, so it's about who gets left behind to be there when the Devil wakes up?
I guess when we actually DetMag the stone we'll have a better idea what happened.
|
|
Perhaps. Though 'detect magic' is hardly an answer to everything. It only tells you the type and relatively power of the magic item. Even with spellcraft, results are not always conclusive. (For example, a powerful artifact may requires years or decades of research to figure out how to work properly. Just ask the Pathfinder Society. They have many such artifacts in their possession.) Cursed items tend to appear as a completely different item with a decent spellcraft, requiring 10+the normal spell craft to tell that its cursed.
Also, be careful about looking too hard for meta style patterns. Granted, it's typical for a GM to say "Are you sure" before you step forward into a really bad situation. But, don't always count on that from me. :) Don't always expect CR appropriate encounters. At the same time, don't presume you are destined to fail if you're up against something clearly more powerful than you. I've had players win in situations clearly designed to make them run. Alternatively, you may battle something less than you, and get beat by crafty tactics by the bad guys or lady luck (That happened yesterday in my PFS group.)
You are adventurers (and new ones at that) going into very dangerous areas. Expect the unexpected.
With that being said, this is a game, and no one enjoys being killed by a game because of getting killed by an overwhelming force (especially with no warning), making one poor decision out of 10 great ones, etc. I haven't had many characters/party deaths as a GM, but Brenton can tell you from playing with me for many years, when they do happen, they are usually 'good' deaths... whatever that may mean :P In other words, my players rarely, if ever, felt that any death was cheap (outside of the occasional one brought on by lady luck and 3 failed saves in a row, hahahah).
I had been trying to pep-talk Emrys past his sense of personal culpability. It turned into a list of 'where had we went wrong?'.
I suppose I can apologize for trying too hard. But not for trying. And not for failing, when the fail was pretty much scripted for Emrys loses, everyone loses, or roll better dice, already. Imagine if we'd played up.
|
|
Some encounters are already designed at CR+1, 2, or more (usually boss encounters). If they are, then there's no need to scale them up to maintain a level of difficulty.
I'm not looking for apologies. I never inferred that an offense was given. I'm simply saying, don't try too hard to over think this and other situations from a meta standpoint. I'm not super sure what you mean by your last line... "Where the fail was pretty much scriped for Emrys loses, everyone loses." Again, I don't script failures, so to speak. I've seen other parties handle similar situations and either out talk or even best the baddie in battle. I very rarely 'script the party to lose.' If that absolutely must take place for the sake of the plot, it usually is cutscened in.
I hadn't meant 'two choices', I meant three. 'Emrys loses', or we support Emrys and we all lose (this is what happened, and it was correct and proper, dulcet et decorum est pro filia morae), or we roll dice better. :)
I also had not meant to imply (nor had I felt) that you crafted this defeat.
It's a hack on a famous quote.
Dulcet et Decorum est, Pro Patria Morae
It is Sweet and Proper, to Die for one's Country
I hacked it to say 'for one's Brothers'.
As for 'scripted', damage we can't heal with time or our own spells is a ticket on the railroad, so yeah, scripted. Here is an encounter which will put you in an NPC's debt/control. Scripted is a fair term.
Brenton did cast Detect Magic and scanned the room before any action was taken towards the gem.
But it is irrelevant, we ARE adventurers and the risk of death has to exist or there is not point to the game itself :D
We took our chances, so we need to accept what comes our way - I am perfectly cool with that.
And Zeriax would NEVER leave Emrys behind, or let the devil have its way with him - he is discrete but he is a dedicated Lawful Good character ;)
|
|
As for 'scripted', damage we can't heal with time or our own spells is a ticket on the railroad, so yeah, scripted. Here is an encounter which will put you in an NPC's debt/control. Scripted is a fair term.
the fail was pretty much scripted for Emrys loses, everyone loses, or roll better dice, already.
Since I said I pretty much don't 'script' stuff, and this line basically says, "Yes you did, Phil", I take offense. Whether you realize it or not, you sometimes come across antagonistically, Ed. This isn't a player vs. GM competition. Again, I've run this 'deal with the devil' scenario (or something very similar to it) a number of times with other parties, often times with very different results.
It's a scenario. Since I wouldn't expect you to gut the scenario and fill it with sandbox, and it would be unreasonable of me to expect that, please accept that no offense was intended.
The line did not say, 'Yes, you did', it said 'All aboard'.
This was edited onto the post above while I was responding:
Whether you realize it or not, you sometimes come across antagonistically, Ed. This isn't a player vs. GM competition. Again, I've run this 'deal with the devil' scenario (or something very similar to it) a number of times with other parties, often times with very different results.
This Devil didn't want to make a deal. I think he got the result he wanted.
I agree it was probably not the result either side of the player/gm table wanted. I maintain it was probably a result the scenario will use to introduce / enforce NPC directorship over the party. And I'll say that's not a bad thing in and of itself.
|
|
I didn't gut the scneario, Ed. For the most part, everything has been straight from the book. However, if you've never ran an adventure Path yourself, let me help you out a little bit. The AP's rarely have enough fluff, encounters, etc, to make for a full adventures. If one follows normal xp rules, sometimes they don't even have enough xp in them to get a party to the recommended level of each chapter. GMs need to add everything from additional side adventures to random or additional encounters to not only insure there's enough going on to make it feel like a full on adventure, but to add enough interactions to make it plot feel solid and not rushed. AP's are excellent foundation, but they can't possible detail 3 full levels of adventuring in 50ish pages (Almost half of each AP is dedicated topics other than the adventure itself).
I also find that by adding optional decisions/encounters/side adventures etc that are not in the book (Since optional stuff chews up pages but may ultimately go no where), players feel a lot less railroaded and have a lot more fun.
Certainly you've seen some of that in CoT... if you haven't, then I'm really doing a great job of blending my elements with those from the book. If you have, then you're just being sarcastic that you wouldn't expect it.
|
|
This Devil didn't want to make a deal. I think he got the result he wanted.
At the risk of being a bit meta, that's where you are wrong. The devil is a LE creature. He prefers to get what he desires through guile and contracts rather than outright overpowering people. Otherwise, he would not wasted his time with the early banter. But he's also impatient, and he does see humans as things to be used. When they start questioning him repeatedly, with no clear demonstration of power of him...well, you get the result you got. Even a paladin has little patience for those who disrespect him....
I agree it was probably not the result either side of the player/gm table wanted. I maintain it was probably a result the scenario will use to introduce / enforce NPC directorship over the party. And I'll say that's not a bad thing in and of itself.
Wrong on a number of counts. It wasn't part of the scenario as written...its one of my many 'pocket encounters' that I put into cities, dungeons, etc., to spruce things up. And NPC dictatorship over the party?
Not even close. I'm sorry. You're just reaching at way too many conclusions and assumptions that are just out in left field. I'm normally happy to let players chat about their thoughts on what something meant...in story and even from a meta point...but you're just way off here, and I'm just not comfortable with the thought of allowing a meta-thought process along those lines to move forward unanswered.
|
|
A point of clarification is in order here.
If you play up +1, it generally means that encounters will be bumped up by one CR, to a total not to exceed APL (average party level) + 1 This applies to if you play +2, +3, etc.
As you might imagine, most boss encounters are scripted at +3 (usually rated a very tough fight for the average party). If I added +3 to that, it would be a TPK every time. A +3 encounter usually has a 25% chance to kill at least one party member in an average four person party. A +6 would be insta death. If you play up, you're basically increasing the more mundane encounters...like the battle with the goblins (at the beginning, those were close to your APL or a bit higher), the early sin creature fights, etc.
Ok, cool that the Play-Up part was clarified - Thanks GM-JC.
Now lets get this one moving along - we are all down a CON point correct?
Lets suck it up and lets go. What about HPs GM-JC?
I've never read or run any AP. I've scrounged the Kingmaker overall arch for my local tabletop game, and read that first book. We went off that storyline and map so quickly, I don't even remember enough to compare.
I did not intend to criticize the encounter. I intended to say it was built into the scenario as a source for damage a 2nd-level party would need a high-level cleric to get healed. At that time, I was more sure that the Devil was in those scenario details. I'm less sure, now. (edit, and just saw it was added by Phil) But I did not mean either the scenario or Phil were incorrect for putting the Devil there. I meant only that the Devil was the 'time to go meet the high-level cleric' alarm clock 'Ding!' the machinery of the scenario makes as it works.
And it works. Now we'll go do that. Why is that me being antagonistic?
If you wrote the Devil in, and didn't intend the party wipeout, then the dice fooled us all. If you did intend the wipeout, or any degree of damage we'll need help healing, that's success, enjoy it.
If the scenario put the Devil there, all that applies, too.
My faith in you and the scenario is undiminished. Even if the Devil was never intended to make any sort of reasonable deal (and I'd probably judge permanent CON damage of any degree as unreasonable), it's part of the scenario. The scenario I trust is built correctly. I'm here for the scenario, and the GMing, and the party. Three points of permanent CON damage, yeah, I'm going to find a Cleric.
|
|
Ok, cool that the Play-Up part was clarified - Thanks GM-JC.
Now lets get this one moving along - we are all down a CON point correct?
Lets suck it up and lets go. What about HPs GM-JC?
You need to look at your wizard. He's the only one awake. :P Currently, everyone is at negative HPs, but no one is dead. At the moment, that's all I can say :)
If someone has healing potions, he can apply them to each of you...or at least the cleric so he can heal the rest. Otherwise, he will probably need to take a risk...run back to town, grab potions, a healer, or some strong men to carry y'all, and run back.
|
|
I meant only that the Devil was the 'time to go meet the high-level cleric' alarm clock 'Ding!' the machinery of the scenario makes as it works. Sigh...I suppose it's possible that GM's and scenario writers think about whether or not they should have an enemy with a particular status attack based on whether or not the average party cleric would have that healing needed to counter at that particular level. However, I'm not one of them...not are most writers, I believe.
After all, there's one status effect that can happen most any time that you can't cure yourself until mid levels.... death.
The need to occasionally go to a higher level cleric and be healed is there for most groups until then. Even high level groups occasionally have to seek out a miracle or wish spell. It happens. But like death, the need for such is usually contingent on the party's actions, decisions, and luck. And then there are those brave groups who don't even bring a healer...
And it works. Now we'll go do that. Why is that me being antagonistic?
Because you're making assumptions about the story, GM, etc, that are just off base. And I, for one, don't appreciate the implications that I'm intentionally railroading the party to need high level healing to somehow establish an NPC dominance that doesn't exist...especially when I said earlier that it isn't so, and you continue to make other conclusions to somehow say 'no, to the contrary...'
Three points of permanent CON damage, yeah, I'm going to find a Cleric.
For most, that's 1 point of fort save and 2 hps right now...for you, it obviously has other implications. So, that's your call. For those who cannot or won't handle it right now, it's a long term, but not permanent, handicap.
I will point out, however, that sometimes things do happen in my games that have the potential to permanently impact your character, both positive and negative. There's a subsection in the house rules that discusses that topic. I always like to get that on the table, because I don't want anyone feeling betrayed, upset, etc if it does happen.
|
|
Four new house rules I'm adding...two of them Pbp specific. We'll try them out and change as necessary.
Cover Rules Mechanic
Normally, a +4 AC cover bonus is given to any target that you shoot if others stand between you and the target. This also applies if any solid object that is more than half the height of the creature is in the way.
New Rule for Pbp: I've heard your concerns, so let's try this. Targets will now receive an AC cover bonus based on the number of creatures between you and them. See Below.
1 Creature: +2 AC bonus
2-3 Creatures: +3 AC Bonus
4+ Creatures: +4 AC bonus
The AC cover bonus for solid objects is the normal +4, where applicable. The feat, improved precise shot eliminates this penalty.
Missed Turns
In any given combat, the first turn you miss a posting on may be made up. For example, if you did not post in the 10am-2pm posting period, but are able to post for the 2pm-6pm posting period, you make take two turns by stating that you are making up for a lost post. Please note that the post is not ret-conned. You are essentially getting two turns in that new round. Please note that abuse of this rule will not be tolerated. Players on our Pbp are expected to post at regular intervals. Excessive use may result in player's ability to use this rule suspended.
Traps
We'll stick to RAW for detecting traps that are within your line of sight. However, I am adding 2 to the DCs of all traps and doubling the distance penalty to -1/5 feet instead of -1/10 feet for the purposes of detecting traps. Note that this makes the rogue trapfinding skill (and spells/items that confer them) more useful, but still allows for most party's without a rogue to find traps if they happen to search close enough.
Finding hidden items
While taking 20 to quickly look around a room (1 minute) works for anything that's lying out in open (but just hard to see), going through a room with a lot of furniture, or digging through an Otyug's garbage pile in hopes of finding a pretty gem the size of a wedding ring takes significantly more time.
Thorough examination (includes walking around, moving things carefully, opening drawers, and using other non visual methods to find hidden items) will take 10 minutes per 5' square. This counts a 'take 20' for purposes of detecting those types of things. Party members may work together to cut that time down. Four party members searching one 10x10 room takes 10 minutes, not 40. When searching is done in this manner, the highest perception check (after take 20) is used for the entire room.
(Note that if an item is hidden in a certain area of the room (i.e. under the mattress, in the top dresser drawer, etc), and you say that you are searching that specific area, you will generally find the item quickly without even needing a perception skill check. Of course, if the item is in under a false bottom in that drawer you check, you will need the skill check still)
------------
As always, your thoughts are welcome/appreciated.
I think I can handle a testing phase for those ranged rules if everyone agrees - it will still be a harsh penalty to soak, but I guess every low level archer has to deal with that in their early lives ;)
I am also happy with the missed turns opportunity - these last weeks have been harsh on my posting so I welcome the chance to catch up somewhat - will still make my best to avoid skipping posting periods though.
I'm not versed enough on the traps and hidden stuff to put an opinion forward, but I am pondering your suggestions - take 10 or 20 would be a great option for a character like Zeriax and anything that relates to Perception, but I am really not that used to those intricacies. More on this when I have digested the information :D
|
|
Of course, as I say,
I'd hate for someone to get upset with me if you went back to town, and something bad happened as a result, and they said, " I never got input on that decision."
the monk goes bouncing down the hallway where he could provoke a green dragon and bring it back to your guys, hahahaha. I do allow you all to do individual things, but if you want to get everyone to go with you, you need a majority or something :P
|
|
Guys, two things:
- We REALLY should find a way arrange "live session" every once in while, whether through Skype, google hangouts, whatever ;) Not easy for sure, but we should do it.
I regularly (weekly) run campaigns using maptools and skype. It's awesome. I would not be opposed to running for you guys as a continuation of this or something. It would need to be something everyone agrees on, however. I'm generally available most weekends as long as I plan in advance.
- So.... Who's doing our book keeping? :D
Usually I do via herolabs PDF. If you guys sell the 2 gems, then I will add the gp to your sheets this weekend. If you want to keep them, I need to know who is holding on to them.
I also need to know if you want to hold onto the wand or sell it.
Of the five scrolls you found, 3 are scrolls of dispel magic (Arcane or divine), and two are dismissal spells. Again, you can keep or sell. Just let me know.
Sundays from Noon Eastern I am busy all night.
2nd Saturdays, also busy from Noon.
Weeknights, often available, but not so I could plan on it.
Fridays, usually a family dinner, could be able to plan starting at 10-11PM?
Regarding the stones, we could sell them. Meg will want to Mending the cracked one to improve its value, first. He also checks every reflective surface of it, anyway. Same for the green one. And way too many of the shards of glass in the glassworks.
Meg and I agree we should hold onto the scrolls.
Refresh my memory, please GM-JCS: The Sheriff is off to Magnimar? We PCs are the sum of the discretionary forces in the town?
We owe the Mayor a report. How far to her? Is it terribly bad form to have her come to the Glassworks?
Zeriax, Meg is camping in the glassworks. Join him there. Or take a watch, he has to go talk to a barmaid.
|
|
Yeah, my weeknights are pretty packed...though I might be able to plan something from 9pm-12midnight or so EST. Friday nights is my Skulls & Shackles campaign, so that wouldn't work.
Yup, Sheriff went to Magnimar to solicit for additional forces to deal with the goblinoid threat. There are watchmen still in town to deal with smaller problems of life. You can even have them watch the doors of the glassworks if you would like. The mayor is not only in charge of the town, but with the Sheriff out, is directly responsible for the watch. You're not the totality of the armed protective forces here, but with the Sheriff out, and given you recent actions, much of the populace is looking up to you.
You can arrange a meeting with the Mayor in "Gameplay" via RP, and ask her if you'd like. You don't see harm in asking a question. You simply have to declare it. You suspect, however, that the watchmen who helped you haul away the earlier goblins and Ameiko's brother have given her a full report up to that point.
I'm not going as far as saying that this should always be done through maptools and/or skype - heck, if we are in PbP is probably for a reason ;)
My life is packed to the brim, but if every once in a while we would want to stick a "live" session in there, I'm sure I could make the time in spite of the 5 hour difference (keep in mind the "every once in a while" part because that's the truth of it - for example, at the moment I'm not putting up a description of my full week routine because I am in betweent the kids baths, dinner, and trying to watch the news, while the eldest one argues about the advantages of the Disney Channel - gotta love it right? :D)
Anyways, it would be cool to hear you guys' voices every "once in a while"
You had at one point said a watchamn was assigned to the glassworks. Can we send him with a written report, while we keep a door watch there?
Megekki's report: (occasional characters are reversed...)
Pretty Meyer:
We go down again. Devil comes from stone. Devil takes strength. We wake up. Fight swallow-thing. Swallower swallows Brenton. We pull him out. Not find three-arms. Not look much. Tired, and Brenton smells like stomach. We rest now, always some watch door. We go back down later.
- ikkegeM
|
|
Yeah, and I took it as much (That it would be once in a while). I just need a day /time. I can cancel most things for a one off, but not the friday group or the podcast I do every other Tuesday or my Wednesday PFS group. Those are pretty set. :P'
So let's toss something out and see what sticks. What about Tuesday, April 9 starting at 9pm EST?
That Saturday is one of those 2nd Saturdays of the month. I could go until 11AM or so.
Isn't that how it is supposed to be? :D
I really don't TRY to lose anybody. It just happens. I think the GM's clear now on what I intend with Greg Rye.
Actually I was just pondering that one - isn't the 8th April a Monday? :D