Think you accidentally double posted to the discussion thread there Rognak. :P
One dead Pathfinders.... 5 more to go....
Tremorsense also happens to work for all those on the ground, yourself included.
Nope. (GM Hat back on for a second)
Tremorsense (Ex)
A creature with tremor-sense is sensitive to vibrations in the ground and can automatically pinpoint the location of anything that is in contact with the ground. Aquatic creatures with tremor-sense can also sense the location of creatures moving through water. The ability’s range is specified in the creature’s descriptive text.
It is commonly house-ruled that it still gets a 50% miss chance, but there is nothing in RAW that says so and I feel requires a VERY liberal interpretation of tremor-sense to do otherwise, as it would require every creature in the plain of earth to have miss chances when fighting each other, or any other ground burrowing creature which relies on tremor-sense to see and attack.
There are also examples of creatures that are blind, but have tremor-sense or similar abilities to allow them to attack normally.
If tremor-sense does not allow ignoring of concealment (Such as by being blind), then these blind creatures are hilariously incorrectly CRd because they would come with a 50% miss chance on all attacks.
I am, as always, willing to be proven wrong, but that is how it currently stands.
(GM Hat back off)
The RAW that I am aware of is that it utilizes the same wording as that of blindsense.
That being said, it is a bit odd/vague and understand your ruling. So, forgive my interruption.
You just got punched to tomato paste by 4 elder earth elementals, i can totally understand wanting to double check, no forgiveness needed.
Blindsense lets a creature notice things it cannot see, but without the precision of blindsight. The creature with blindsense usually does not need to make Perception checks to notice and locate creatures within range of its blindsense ability, provided that it has line of effect to that creature. Any opponent that cannot be seen has total concealment (50% miss chance) against a creature with blindsense, and the blindsensing creature still has the normal miss chance when attacking foes that have concealment. Visibility still affects the movement of a creature with blindsense. A creature with blindsense is still denied its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class against attacks from creatures it cannot see.
They don't actually share any wording, and blindsense still specifically calls out that the 50% miss chance still applies, and this call out is absent in tremorsense.
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I love a good rules discussion so I hope you don't mind me chiming in. I think the question hinges on what Pathfinder means by the word "pinpoint" as it appears in the Tremorsense ability. The word pinpoint shows up in the CRB in a few relevant places:
p. 382, discussing the dragon disciple's Blindsense: ..."He usually does not need to make Perception checks to notice and pinpoint the location of creatures within range of his blindsense ability... Any opponent he cannot see still has total concealment against him and the dragon disciple still has the normal miss chance when attacking foes that have concealment..."
p. 442, discussing being blind in darkness: ..."A blinded creature must first pinpoint the location of an opponent in order to attack the right square; if the blinded creature launches an attack without pinpointing its foe, it attacks a random square within its reach..."
p. 443, more discussion, basically showing that "pinpoint" refers to 'knowing what square the thing you cannot see is in'.
p. 563, about Invisibility: "Even once a character has pinpointed the square that contains an invisible creature, the creature still benefits from total concealment (50% miss chance)."
p. 564, re discussion about scent, similar discussion.
See also this FAQ which relates to Selective Channeling but also addresses the question of what it means, or doesn't, to pinpoint something.
As I read it, for Pathfinder "pinpoint" simply means knowing what square you are trying to attack, but doesn't do anything to address the issue of the miss chance from concealment.
Of course, you are the GM and I will happily defer to whatever you rule, but I enjoy parsing the rules with other Pathfinder nerds so I hope you don't mind me contributing these citations.
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Though your chiming in is not unwelcome, it seems as a reiteration on my same point.
Tremorsense (Ex): A creature with tremorsense is sensitive to vibrations in the ground and can automatically pinpoint the location of anything that is in contact with the ground. Aquatic creatures with tremorsense can also sense the location of creatures moving through water. The ability’s range is specified in the creature’s descriptive text.
Blindsense (Ex) Using nonvisual senses, such as acute smell or hearing, a creature with blindsense notices things it cannot see. The creature usually does not need to make Perception checks to pinpoint the location of a creature within range of its blindsense ability, provided that it has line of effect to that creature. Any opponent the creature cannot see still has total concealment against the creature with blindsense, and the creature still has the normal miss chance when attacking foes that have concealment. Visibility still affects the movement of a creature with blindsense. A creature with blindsense is still denied its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class against attacks from creatures it cannot see.
The GM has stated an understanding of this point. He then further pointed out that it would be silly for every fight on the plane of Earth (which would use these rules) and for some creatures who are otherwise blind.
The only thing that I would add as a last ditch, I don't wanna die is..
Tremorsense: Element earth; Type utility (Su); Level 3; Burn 0
You can take a move action to gain tremorsense 30 feet for 1 round on any earth or stone surface that you touch. You can accept 1 point of burn to increase the duration to 1 round per kineticist level you possess. While benefiting from this tremorsense, your earth blasts and composite blasts that include earth components don’t suffer a miss chance from concealment or total concealment against creatures you detect with your tremorsense.
This potentially implies that "this tremorsense" is different in that "...don’t suffer a miss chance from concealment or total concealment against creatures you detect with your tremor sense."
None taken. My primary reason for the ruling is 2 fold.
RAI: If tremorsense didn't allow for ignoring concealment due to blindness, than many blind or essentially blind creatures would always attack on a 50% miss chance, rendering most of them null and void. This would also make combat on the plane of earth frankly hilarious between all the creatures that use tremorsense to move around.
RAW: I'm not a fan of adding or subtracting rules based on wording in other answers unless it's a actual defined in rules thing. I find that leads to a lot of assumptions both on players and GMs part. Most of these examples are clarifications about blindsense or similar blinded situation, and thus are "Combined" for lack of a better word with Blindsense's definition and actually being blind, which includes a 50% miss chance. The most explicit example i can find is a Buggane Which is explicitly called out as being blind and only sensing through tremorsense alone, but does not have the 50% miss chance anywhere in it's stat block.
Unfortunately, Oogachucka, that example only confirms to me my belief that they should not have concealment, as "This tremor-sense" is referring to the ability tremorsense, and would be called out as unusual as is often done in other abilities as "Unlike normal X ability". Was a good try though. :(
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I'm sorry for harping but i was bored and clicking around and found these posts from Sean K. Reynolds. They are near the bottom.
And of course, he never actually answers the question that I wanted, which is if Concealment actually applies. *Sighs*
However, I will buy that pinpoint argument. Just to attempt to save granny. I'll roll in thread for it.
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Btw, this is probably a good moment for all of us to look through the stack of chronicle boons etc that we all have sitting around and usually forget to use! :-)
Guys, I’ve given this a fair bit of thought. I’m in favor of baling – now!
• Ooga is down – she’s the healer and had waaaay more hp than the next highest PC.
• The elementals (5 with DR/-) cannot be engaged yet
• Krune isn’t out of his coffin yet
This has nothing to do with my enjoyment of this game or of playing with all of you :)
My head says our chances are slim and throwing Eadie’s life away makes no sense to me (and I would guess to her as well).
I am also willing to take Ooga’s body with me.
If anyone thinks I’m giving up too soon or easily, I’ll listen but I’ve spent a lot of time thinking about this today.
@GM Starson, the boon I have in mind to use is from:
When adventuring in either Absalom or the chosen location, you are treated as being in both locations for the purposes of boons and vanities that are location-dependent.
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Nifty! Yes, I would allow that to work if you wanted to run for it. However, I would say it would only work for you, and things your carrying such as a body.
Though, of note for the others, there is shallow bowl in the room that was mentioned which contains refuge tokens that can let you escape, though that may dump you somewhere random in the world instead of someplace safe like Absalom.
Though I will admit I'd love to get 5 more kills on my tally, if you have a way to run, your free to use it.
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I'm interested to hear what the others say, and suggest that we pause for a moment to give everyone a chance to chime in (I think Yazdan is currently on a trip with limited net access). My overall impression is much like Eadie's. I love a challenge, and I'm thoroughly enjoying playing a tough scenario with y'all, but my head doesn't see how this doesn't end in a TPK (and that's without me knowing anything about what Krune himself can do). You've all pretty much seen Mr. P's schtick - I don't have a lot more shenanigans than what you've all already seen. With his AC and hp, the elementals will make short work of him if they can focus fire on him like they did to Ooga (and I imagine the same is probably true for any of us). I might feel differently if any of the casters have an idea about how to quickly take all or many of the elementals out of the picture. Anyway, I look forward to hearing others' thoughts about this. Mr. P is not afraid to die if that's what happens, but I also don't feel any need to fight a hopeless battle if none of us can see a path to a chance of victory.
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I guess it will have to boil down to pure luck. I am guessing I have about a 50/50 chance of sending one of them away using Dismissal. The other one will take some time. I have another use of Spell Study that I get at 11th that I forgot about. That will take about 5 rounds to maybe deal with it, if I burn my last 4th and a 5th level to cast Dismissal as a 4th level cleric spell.
As I left a piece of my ear before we left along with 10k of gold, I was already expecting be killed. Spell wise, I still have chain lightning (CL14), Disintegrate and Hungry pit for high level spells.
I think, at the very least, we'll need Yazdan to get home and give his opinion. As much as I'd love to kill you all, if you have a legit way to escape, you can take it, but I want you all to at least have your voice heard either way.
Holy word wouldn't help. They have to much HD to be affected by it.
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Now while you may not end up with her scalp GM Starson, Eadie will be abandoning her backpack containing:
• Bedroll
• Trail rations
• Soap
• Two coils of silk rope
• Grappling hook
• Waterskin
• A few pots of alchemical grease and soothe syrup
• Grooming kit, and a
• Whetstone
I have not forgotten my commitment to Yazdan’s compact with the Deva, and I will also contribute to raising Oogachucka, using whatever gold reward we get for 'softening up Krune' for the next bunch of Pathfinders.
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Just realized that I can take five of you with me since I have one more Focused Spells (+4 cl) left.
Edit: So if Eadie takes Ooga's body, using her boon, that still leaves six of us: Vos, Ragnak, Yazdan, Nancy, Mr. P, Griff. So you could potentially get all of us with your Focused Spell. What spell are you thinking of casting? Because Mr. P and Griff may be too far away from the rest of you.
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Nifty! Yes, I would allow that to work if you wanted to run for it. However, I would say it would only work for you, and things your carrying such as a body.
Though, of note for the others, there is shallow bowl in the room that was mentioned which contains refuge tokens that can let you escape, though that may dump you somewhere random in the world instead of someplace safe like Absalom.
Though I will admit I'd love to get 5 more kills on my tally, if you have a way to run, your free to use it.
@GM, can you clarify where the refuge tokens are on the map? Since Mr. P spent the round before combat broke out just moving into position, I would likely have had enough movement to grab two for myself and Griff if they were not in some out of the way location. No worries if you don't want to retcon to say that I did that on the previous round, but then I need to know where they are located in case I need to make a dash for them.
@GM, also, no need to answer this if you don't want to, but does Mr. P have any reason to believe that his Summon Mount ability (the standard Paladin CRB ability) wouldn't work here (if Mr. P is DDoored out of the complex with Rognak et al)? The CRB text doesn't give any distance or other limitation, so I -- think -- it would work...
Mr. P
Q1: The scenario isn't very clear either, so I'll say it was on the altar, I don't wanna retcon, but that seems like a good place to have everyone dash to to grab one.
Q2: I'm of the opinion it summons them from any place from any plane of existence, so you should be fine.
No worries! There is a reason we put this thing on pause until you got back. Considering the FUBAR of this situation, we figured botting you wouldn't be fair and wanted you to have a chance to weigh in.
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Okay so, first of all, I really really want to sew Krune's stupid rune lord face shut with a heightened, persistent, ill-omened lipstitch. But I see that circumstances got dire (to say the least) and I can understand wanting to GTFO while we still can. Here are my questions and thoughts. Note that if the way this all went down was truly within tactics as written, I trust you, GM, and the whole thing has been super exciting and very well-run :)
- If I remember correctly from GMing this a few months ago, Krune's written tactics are to use his school power to teleport out of the coffin and see what's going on and tell everyone to bow down to him in Thassilonian before initiating hostilities. I also recall a specific timer from when the Lashmistress encounter starts to when Krune comes out. So we did pass that timer?
- Would the elementals really know to keep pounding Ooga into paste long after she was dead-dead? Summoned creatures (I'm assuming they were summoned) can be given specific orders if you can communicate with them. But I would think orders would need to be verbal, and I don't recall hearing any Terran. Otherwise summoned creatures attack your enemies to the best of their ability. A corpse isn't much of an enemy when there are living targets on tremor sense radar. Does a corpse show up on tremor sense? I do realize they could keep pounding that square either way if they were ordered to.
- Note that Nancy has First Aid gloves, so could potentially get Ooga back up. Yazan could then cover Ooga (and himself of course, and anyone else who wanted to buy some time I guess) with an emergency force sphere.
- Regarding escape: Yazdan's got a scroll of teleport in a spring-loaded wrist sheath, and can immediate-action cast emergency force sphere (twice), so I should be able to 'nope' the hell out of just about anything.
Sure, let me answer questions in order.
Question 1: You are... mostly correct. There is one very important and very obvious way that the rune lord can check on what's going on outside his coffin without endangering himself first
Question 2:Krune gave instructions with details, but notably the only ones that could be targeted the way she was was Oogachuka and Vos because they where the only ones on the ground that could be felt by tremor sense in the first place, though that was a happy coincidence. Krune, remembering genius level intellect, made a knowledge check to identify the life oracle as the healer (She was casting and channeling during the combat.) So he told the elder elementals to ensure that she was 10000% dead. An important part of hard mode I feel is remembering that Krune is a Runelord with genius level intellect that rivals gods and dragons, and should act like it. He has just as much in game knowledge as the team does, including (Rightfully) that anyone who was sent after him must be quiet powerful and would have revival spells on them, unexpected DR, ect.
Your other two notes are for the team, so I'll let them respond.
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In the interest of potentially planning to stay and fight, here's what I've got:
YAZDAN'S REMAINING BIG GUNS, ETC.
- Icy Prison (DC22)
- Lipstitch, Heightened Persistent x2 (DC21)
- Dimension Door
- Emergency Force Sphere x2
- Slow (DC20)
- Lipstitch, Heightened x2 (DC21)
- Persistent Metamagic Rod, Lesser with 2 charges
- Nancy has many utility wands and scrolls, notably: Displacement, Desecrate (to buff Pippa), Fly, Freedom of Movement, Heroism, Ill Omen, Invisibility, Invisibility Purge, Silence, Unliving Rage (to buff Pippa)
- Notable boon stuff: channel positive energy 6d6, attempt to remove cursed, diseased, or sickened creature as Paladin Lay on Hands, CL 11th, immediate action if below 0 HP, recover 3d8+10 HP, immediate action if reduced to 0 or fewer HP, recover 3d8+5 HP, if killed, instead reduced to 1 hit point + 50 temp HP; die after 1d4+1 rounds, Inspire courage as 7th level bard for 7 rounds, become mythic tier 1 for 3 rounds (free action).
- Pippa: her AC is garbage but she's a decent beatstick and a bag of expendable HP
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Well, I'm all for continuing on if we think we have even a slim chance of pulling it off, but at the moment it's hard for me to see how we have that slim chance. Just speaking about my character - he's built to do lots of damage when charging and it's going to be tough to accomplish that in this tight space, especially with the elementals with 15' reach sitting in the walls. He has only slightly more than half the hp that Ooga had and while his AC is better than hers, it's far from great (especially if I can manage to pull of a charge, which lowers it even further, and smite evil is not going to help his AC vs the Elementals). All of which is to say that, after seeing what they did to Ooga, it seems likely that the Elementals will also be able to kill Mr. P in a round or two at most. Since they are in the walls, we have no effective way (that I'm aware of) to counter-attack. And of course, that doesn't even begin to get at Krune himself and what he may have up his sleeve.
Now, if someone has some suggestions for how to pull it off, I'm open to listening.
I'm also open to strategizing for how to escape too, if that's the consensus. Mr. P has already acted this round (charging the coffin), so Krune et al are going to act again before he can try to get one of the tokens or reach the others for D Door, so it's quite possible that Mr. P and Griff may be in for it regardless.
Lastly, if we can make an escape - with Ooga's body in tow - would we want to raise her and then try again, with some further precautions? (Presuming the GM would allow it, which I have no idea if he would).
You can always ready an action to attack something sitting in the walls. I know it's not going to be for charging lance damage, but it will be damage.
Also, we need to be flying. That will force the elementals out of the ground, at the same time giving them a penalty to hit.
Unfortunately, I can't fly, but I have a great AC and can pump it if I really need to.
As far as healing goes, I do have a bunch of healing consumables, as well as my spell slots, so I can step in as a healer (although I really can't AoE heal).
Well, either way it's Eiden and Yazdan's turn, so it's up to you guys how you want to proceed.
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You can always ready an action to attack something sitting in the walls. I know it's not going to be for charging lance damage, but it will be damage.
Also, we need to be flying. That will force the elementals out of the ground, at the same time giving them a penalty to hit.
Unfortunately, I can't fly, but I have a great AC and can pump it if I really need to.
As far as healing goes, I do have a bunch of healing consumables, as well as my spell slots, so I can step in as a healer (although I really can't AoE heal).
Trust me when I say that Mr. P and Griff will do insignificant damage in that case. Mr. P relies on charging and smiting, neither of which will be effective as a readied attack against the elementals, while Griff - when he attacks at all - relies on pounce, which will also not work as a readied attack.
If others among us have a way to deal with the elementals Mr. P will happily attempt to get Krune out of his coffin (as far as we know, he's still in it), but I don't have much I can do against the elementals, especially in these close quarters.
We're flying, but not invisible (which was probably a mistake to decline the offer), so the Elementals will be able to target us even though we're in the air.
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Guys,
I don’t see any seismic shift to change my mind.
I am sure ya'lls characters are cool and interesting, but this is hard mode waking rune.
If your character is not something that you cringe at playing because it ruins games due to its sheer op'ness then we are likely to TPK.
I feel kinda bad that I have brought a Falchion Fighter to a Musket Master fight -- but that decision was made weeks ago.
I was in a TPK early in my PFS career after the GM clearly telegraphed we were going to get wiped.
I don’t want to make the same mistake twice.
I think GM Starson has been very patient with us, but I have made up my mind. I have enjoyed playing with you all and wish each of you luck with your own decision.