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LoL I find Alchemists and Gunslingers to be far more easy mode than archers.
Ranged combat is generally more potent in Pathfinder because you can full attack more often. Since you can make more attacks, you naturally do more damage. This is why nearly all of my characters are Melee people, I don't want to easy mode everything. Mal is my one ranged character, but by the end of his career, he'll be able to ignore cover/concealment, fire while engaged, and be doing 6 shots at like +18 down to +13 for 2d6+15 per arrow. He can roll twice and pick the best roll for each shot, and jack his AC to mid 30's
If you want a reading for some eye rolling, google Zen archer guide that talks about soloing every beast in the game. A lvl 20 ZA can solo all but a few monsters with relative ease. Not saying the writer didn't put in some rules to benefit the archer, but the principle is there.
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Ooph.
I can't even imagine how to get my paladin's AC up that high. "Sword and board" is, ironically, not the way to a high AC, despite the preference for it historically, and it kind of sucks for damage, too. Plus, he is going to move slow, of course, so against moving targets he won't get many strikes in, and against any targets that are ranged or flying he has a really bad chance at hitting with a secondary weapon and low Dex.
It's enough to make me think PF is pretty broken (the insistence of a friend who plays some PF but who prefers 4e). The live group I was in abandoned it, too, for other games. :-\
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The trick with armoed types is to make sure your armor will allow for increased stat grown in the AC dept. However, this is also where ranged benefit because Dex (wis for ZA) affect to hit and AC both.
For Paladins, I can see an easy 25+ AC, more when you smite
+1 Breastplate for 7
+1 Lg Shield for 3
Dex of 16 for 3
Dodge for 1
Amulet of NA +1 (minimum)
BAM, 25 AC
Only down side is the smite AC bonus is a deflection one, so shield of faith and Rings of protection don't stack with it.
If you don't mind some to hit penalties
+1 Full plate for 10
+1 Tower shield for 5
Dex of 13 for +1
Dodge for +1
Shield focus for +1
Amulet of NA for +1
Now you are at 29 before smite, with less dex needed, so more Cha
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I was hoping to go full plate and lower Dex, with higher Str and Cha, though. I also didn't optimize completely, making Int higher (12) than it 'should' be. I just can't seem to conscientiously play a dumb-as-a-post character.
I did go low Wis, though, hoping that a trait and a higher Cha for Divine Grace would mostly make up for it. That's pretty much what I was thinking for Naurin, too, although I don't know if I will slow down her spell progression for a dip into paladin after all.
Unfortunately, with my paladin I'll probably be dropping the heavy shield, even, for a buckler since that would give a free hand for Laying on Hands and spellcasting purposes.
I think I may just be too stubborn to make effective characters in this game... Still, it kinda sucks to see the alchemist blowing away whole groups at range while I do the same damage to one on a crit.
By the way, with zen archers in the game, does anyone make ranger archers or fighter archers? It seems that the wand of mage armor, in particular, make regular armor a bad second choice.
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Also, I don't feel that pathfinder is broken, per se. Every system has classes/abilities that can be used to better effect than others. The issue with when you pair non optimized characters with optimized ones, then limit the GM's options to deal with it by sticking them into a PFS mold.
I've long felt that the system doesn't matter. Min/maxers will min/max, flavor characters will be flavorful, and rules will have things that don't make sense. The question boils down to: Can you enjoy spending time with people while playing XXX game.
Yes, my first character is a ranger archer, and he's a decent switch-hitter. So armor does matter. In Fangwood Keep I shot less than 10 arrows over the whole module. In my current scenario I've blown through 11 shots in 2 encounters (iterative attacks get silly).
I played with a fighter archer once. The ability to sunder things with a bow is awesome.
My battle cleric has AC 25 at level 6. Could easily buy an amulet to bump it to 26, but saving for that +1 adamantine sword!
Since you can draw as a move or part of your move, I just use my weapon hand to cast generally. Sometimes it's limiting, but not often.
There's loads of effective characters. No reason they need to be able to solo things.
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Rangers make some nasty archers, because of their spells and the ability to pick up archery feats without the prereques.
Spells like Gravity Bow and the 3rd level one that lets you make any foe your Favored Enemy (with all the bonuses that go with it).
Gunther (although designed not as a min/max) is built as a switch hitter. The only reason I don't pull out the bow often is that Mal does archery better, and the group always needs someone on the front line besides Walter.
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The soloing thing is just a odd way to challenge a build.
This is a team game, and I've always viewed combat monsters as a way to see the story faster, so it doesn't get bogged down with combats that laste more than a few rounds.
Heck, look at Mez, he's about as unoptimized as you can get. Sword/board, no 18 Str, no intimidating prowess and loads of intimidation ranks, no conversion inquisition. From an optimization stand point, he's a pretty lame character, but I like playing him, and he can contribute a little in just about every area of a game.
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Hmm. Well, I could ask about rogues or Dwarf paladins, then... I've seen a straight rogue in one of my games, but apparently they are just jokes (and redundant) later compared with various other classes and archetypes.
I guess I am also just annoyed by the Paizo publishing model that is fast and continuous churn of new material. Pretty soon, there will be more feats and traits than players. Some would argue "more choices", other, more pessimistic types (like myself) will see an ever more broken game as exponentially more combinations make for more and more unexpected results.
Which, I suppose as you are saying, spells worse for PFS than Pathfinder itself, since many home games will just disallow the synthesists (or whatever they are called), summoners, alchemists, and most of the other such stuff entirely.
Eh, I should just stop while I'm behind.
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You are right, but the purpose of this is for discussion, no need to stop.
I don't think we needed ANY of the new classes being tested right now, they are just to sell more books. Can't fault Paizo for trying to make money though.
I would be completely happy with just the CRB and nothing else. It bugs me to no end that people think feats/traits/skills are what makes their character interesting or memorable. It's not. Is it my Zen Archer tricks that make Malfeas a snarky lawful neutral-evil guy who like to poke the buttons on his cohorts, NO. He could have easily been a dozen other things. Honestly, he probably shouldn't even be a Zen archer, except for the fact I wanted to try the class out and Lawful evil is my bread and butter. It's not like he is a very zen personality, lol.
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There's an OOTS where Elan says that he doesn't mind being overshadowed in combat and actually finds it rather relaxing.
But, while funny, it is nice to feel that you are making a reasonable contribution, too, beyond just your character's wit, aren't being completely redundant in and out of combat, and won't drag the whole party down because of a failed save.
Ok, so I'd like us to try to be quick on this one. If we can finish by the end of the month, or even sooner, great!
Link to new game thread here: Prince of Augustana
