Of Kings and Commoners - Kingmaker AP

Game Master RPGGGM

Yours are. I'll keep brief where possible

@LawvsChaos: I think you are going a little too far with "a chaotic person does not accept the authority of law". I may EVEN simply not care for the law, and still utilize it when it benefits me.
Not everybody needs to turn into Chaotic Batman and become a Vigilante to dispense their own sort of justice.
It's a question of convenience and of societal standards(which, believe it or not, also exist in chaotic communities).

@going to restov: I seem to remember you thought it was a good idea.

@voting: I think people voted yay on taking them there, but weirdly, many were reluctant to watch the hanging, and not very fond of the outcome.

@killgreedy: the magistrate flat out said that a couple public hangings would be GREAT for the population's morale. He intended to(and did) make the hanging into a spectacle, and did so without a trial, basing his actions only on your word that these are indeed bandits that deserve to hang.
Your mileage may vary, but to me, he did come across as trigger-happy guy not caring much about an individuals life as long as his political support is secured.

@banditry: So do define it, then, because I'm at a loss here. I tried going with Wikipedia, from there got to the german "Bann" origin and Outlaw, but how it applies to the one group and not the others is beyond me. The one's did highway robbery, the others kidnapping and extortion, they're all criminals in my eyes.

@randomly kill either tor or tamris and walk away: No, not really, because that would make you a murderer. If the body is also looted, technically, a bandit? I mean, the wolf business aside, we did raid their camp in the middle of the night...if we murder and plunder them, then we should walk on over to restov and ask for a noose, right? But maybe it's better if we just murder them out of principle because if we don't loot them it's not banditry, only murder, and as such not relevant to the charter?

@other bandits/not relevant: Please do link me to the definition of banditry you use to figure out if something is relevant or not. We need this to have a common basis. Does common thievery apply(as wikipedia would suggest)? Does it need to be organized crime(vs people operating solo)? What kind of crimes are relevant(only armed robbery? Also murder? kidnapping, arson, rape, and jaywalking?)

@we decide: yes, and the snake coils upon itself: What other options DO we have aside "let them go/work something out" and "murder them in cold blood"? I tried to bring in some elves that could also work as a drop-off-point for such criminals to be held in a prison-like environment. As such, my vote is clearly "imprisonment", rather than "go free" or "die", but it's pointless to decide on something that we don't have the power to realize, and no mines or labor camps to make them work in.(I believe prisoners should get to do something, not just sit around idly in a cell...humane work conditions, though, not slave labor conditions).

Alright, reign it in a bit folks. Typing doesn't afford a lot of body language or context and can lead to misunderstanding.

That and the party are nominally contractors themselves here to do a job not found a kingdom (something that has not occurred in-game yet). So going over much of the same earlier legal and moral terrain doesn't add to the game experience at this point.

Charter holders are the legal judge jury and executioners in this land at least when seen through the eyes of the biggest national power in the region.

@ Alia/Mordred:

Okay, I spoke to GGGM before posting this, but I think it's time.

...

Okay. I'm going to call it here. We are going around in circles and I feel like I am beating my head against a brick wall. So I am going to step out of character and address you player-to-player instead of character-to-character.

Yours are. I'll keep brief where possible

My posts are getting long. The reason for this is that I feel as a fellow player you deserve for me to give clear and cogent answers to your points rather than some kind of rude dismissal like "no you're wrong."

I am trying to be respectful. And from the tone of the remark above and others like it, I don't feel I am getting that respect in return.

Somehow I find myself dragged into the death penalty argument again, even though I wasn't even advocating that at this point. Numalar still needs more information to form a definite opinion as to what to do. And we are just repeating the same stuff we have already been over.

-----

So:

Ultimately here is what I feel is the real problem.

I understand that you are in the process of creating a vivid character and the more you play Alia the clearer her personality becomes for you. And that's great.

But the problem is that Alia seems to be operating at cross purposes with the rest of the party. In two ways.

-----

1. Alia feels passionate about her opposition to the death penalty, except in extreme circumstances. The problem here is that the basic premise of the adventure involves it. The Royal Charter that the earlier characters all signed mentions it explicitly, and the charter serves as not only a mission but an introduction to the adventure. It tells you that this is something that will sometimes be necessary. The earlier characters were all designed with this understanding.

Had Alia been present at the beginning of the adventure, and refused to sign the charter on the grounds of her opposition to the death penalty, then she would have been excused from the adventure, and you would have got to roll up a new character.

But instead your alternate origin gave you an end run around the charter. I had thought when you joined us that gradually your character's goals would fall into line with the rest of the party's in a roleplayed transition, and that eventually you would get your own charter like the rest of us. But it feels like you are digging in your heels and just pushing harder in the opposite direction.

This is Pathfinder. We're not supposed to be constantly agonizing about whether to kill things. And it's getting frustrating.

-----

2. The second issue is your Kyonin "mission." Every time you bring up the idea that Kyonin should move in and take over, I feel like you are trying to sabotage the mission that I know as a player I will receive but as a character I don't know I will even get yet. It puts you in competition with the rest of us, only our roleplaying hands are tied because we don't yet know that your "elven enclaves" will make it more difficult for us later. It seems unfair. Theoretically Numalar shouldn't care about Kyonin enclaves popping up because as far as he knows he will never actually have a stake in the Stolen Lands.

If the group decided that we were happy with being a Kyonin-sponsored kingdom, I think GGGM is a good enough GM that he could wing it. I GM the majority of games I play f2f and I have to acknowledge that he is better than me at it. I don't say that lightly, and it is not the case with any other pbp GM I have so far.

But I do NOT want our kingdom to be New Lothlorien. I want it to be uniquely ours, a vibrant, squalling mess, and not a copy of anything. A human kingdom works for this because they tend to be inclusive. I'm happy to have elves in it, but I don't want a new elven kingdom. I don't want a gnome kingdom either! Numalar was made to work with the way the AP is designed to ultimately develop.

And I can't express these opinions in character, because Numalar doesn't know that the kingdom phase is coming. Only you have that information. I'm also starting to think that I am not the only one who is bothered by this.

-----

At this point I don't know how to resolve this. I have tried to find ways of accommodating you without compromising Numalar's values. I do know that these arguments are starting to make the game not so much fun for me any more. And that's a problem. I put a LOT of work into Numalar and had been looking forward to playing him for a long time.

So what can we do? Are you willing to build some bridges, and if so how do we do that?

Peet/Numalar

I think you've both done well in establishing your characters. I actually don't mind Alia's "Elven" leanings and think that should be dealt with in game GM can handle it.

Death penalty.. meh .. we invited them along so we have to deal with their foibles.. if Alia keeps pushing too hard well we'll push back and test those convictions a little in game though.

The discussions are a bit long... say you both respect each other and keep it short and sharp with the least amount of offence taking as possible.

I have to admit that most of these posts are in the tldr category for me, so I've stayed silent on the matters at hand... maybe not the best response, but I own it, nonetheless.

I do have opinions on the matters, well Celyne does, as mine personally should have no bearing, but unless it comes down to a final yea or nay vote, I don't want to add to the wall-o-text.

Fine, lets go with direct talk, Peet.
The reason I was trying to keep my responses briefer was not a lack of respect. It was because the last time we had a longer discussion, some people read along, but nobody chimed in. TL:DR=> not good.

Walls of text don't help with that. I meant to keep things short to increase the chance of others contributing, and of sticking to the important parts, rather than getting lost in details(as we did last time).
Also, while I somewhat did enjoy our first discussion, I do have a one-month old baby and a full-time job now, and simply not enough time to keep up with multiple-pages long posts needing a response. That is not meant in any form as a rude dismissal.

If you feel dragged into the death penalty argument again, it is because I feel you are not considering other options. Hence the repeated question: what CAN we do? If we don't hand them over to the locals(Renault) and don't bring in non-locals(elves) our options are pretty limited, and while I may be wrong, I believe many of us don't think it's a good idea to just send them on their way and let them and Tamris sort it out among themselves.

I also doubt Renault would gladly accept somebody from Brevoy speaking Judgement in his lands, then expect him to carry it out for them. He did sound like he cherished his independence, and does not feel like a subject. So if we go that path, we likely have to hand them over and let him decide what to do with them.
(And I feel you are "sabotaging" that by insisting that we ourselves make the decision)
It is pretty obvious Kyonin does have some designs on the region, but in-game, that should definitely not be more clear than the designs Brevoy has on the Stolen Lands. Out of Character, I can understand trying to keep them out, in-character, it could have been a convenient solution to a few problems. I tried to talk to RPGGGM about it, but have not received further answers or directions, but since Tamris seems to have declined the offer, I think that option is off the table.

Regarding my operating at cross purposes: You first bring up an opposition to the Death penalty, and the Kyonin mission.
I MAY have overdone both, and will gladly "reign" things in, but since we are talking player to player, and state things directly: On both accounts I was trying to follow the directions of RPGGGM when he contacted me.

He told me I should try and be a moral compass. There were not many chances for that, yet, except during times when capital punishment came up. You may also note that she IS willing to have the current prisoners judged by a third party, but she is opposed to sentencing them and killing them on the spot. Partly because Grogan never attacked anyone except Dappled, and Tor did surrender(on basis of getting a fair trial). It's true this is just a game, and it can be tiresome to stop and consider moralic implications too often. I understand that. But killing other sentient beings out of convenience (because it's easier than worry about alternatives) is not quite the moralic way to handle it, either. That is why I push for an alternate solution, of any sorts. A standard modus operandi beyond "kill them" or "they go free". Because that would also make worrying about these things superfluous.

Secondly, I was told that Kyonin should mix things up and also have it's eyes on the region. They WANT to take these lands, and I know it. I'm partly here because of that (and it's also one reason I am not bound by the charter). So I actually do have an advantage over you in that you are not clear on Brevoys designs for these lands.
But that is my ONLY advantage. Once you have an order to establish a kingdom on your own, you would likely oppose Kyonin expanding here on basis of the very reasons you named, with Zokon likely backing you up(for reasons stated in gameplay), and the others (probably) not strongly feeling either way.
As such, I feel that if they are to be a player in the region, they need to get a foot in the door early. Since we ARE dealing with the Winter Court, I do, myself, expect problems down the line, and that I'll ultimately have to choose where my allegiances lie. But I see no chance to make all this happen once you get to a point where you are in a position of power over these lands, as Numalar is very...resistant to having his opinions changed.

On both of these points, I am willing to concede. I may have played things out differently than RPGGGM imagined them, I may make things unnecessarily hard on you, I may have misunderstood intentions completely.
If GM tells me to step back on either point, I'll gladly do so. I can be Chaotic Good and just silently oppose what your are doing, without being vocal about it, leaving the decisions to Numalar completely.
I can also only look after something in that said elven hold, and Kyonin has no plans for the region, at all.(so nobody contests your rule).

It is good that you bring this up actually, as it demands reviewing plot and character goals on a level that is not do-able otherwise. I put my cards on the table here, since I feel partially keeping them for myself caused a lot of stress and displeasure for you.
But know that the designs you had to face were only partially of my own mind, and I was actually trying to follow directions given. I may have done so in a completely wrong way, overdone things or push too hard because I saw little other chance for these to come to be realized. But I kept going, figuring RPGGGM would let me know if I went too far off the track. Since the two of you corresponded and it resulted in this post, I feel that may not have been the case, and as such, officially, request an evaluation PM by our GM quickly reviewing my actions and re-stating my directives.

If it is felt that an alteration is needed, I'll oblige. I also apologise for revealing these designs, making them less of a surprise and/or enforcing their alteration. But I feel with the pace of pbp, it's not worth it to try and keep such things partially secret, causing distress and unhappyness to a fellow player not able to understand why something is happening, before at some time down the line there may be a revelation that could as well have happened in response, and not by design.

Edit: Building bridges. In the discussions so far, in my opinion Numalar has proven unmoving when it comes to his opinions or values. As such, compromising seems impossible.
Since you are the more fleshed out character and have been here before, the simple solution will be to make slight alterations to Alia(who is also hard-headed...and while she may be open to compromise, is not willing to abandon her position completely, either)...come Level 3, that should be quite possible due to Bladebound Archetype.
Alternatively, if GM requests so, I am willing to "retire" her and redo another character who can fall in line with Numalar's wishes more easily, or, if you feel it is a player problem rather than a character one, offer to bow out.(I do greatly enjoy the game RPGGGM is running, but everybody should have fun and get to enjoy their characters...if I am disruptive to that, I'll face the consequences.)

And just to clarify in case that was not clear: I am not attempting to shift responsibility towards GM. His directions had been very open and unspecific, so everything that took place was simply my interpretation.

I had felt it necessary to establish "groundwork" for both in the early parts of the AP.
Suddenly turning into a very moralic person or suddenly bringing elves into the mix(without an invasion force) seemed to not be very "fluid" or believable options. As such, I tried to get a head start with elven involvement, and present strong convictions where possible.
But it's all my doing and interpretation, and possibly I should have sought more guidance from GM in these matters. I only felt I should make it clear that if there is blame to place, it's with me.

@ MordredofFairy:

Thank you for this post. I do believe we are clearing the air here and I appreciate it. I know you don't have the time that you used to and I appreciate the level of detail you went to.

There will be a couple other things to say but I will post those later.

As said, I'll try and keep it brief, because that is what I can manage:

Opinions and Actions: I completely understand. What I mean is that if we don't manage to meet in the middle-grounds with opinions, and only build bridges with actions, but not changing our outlook, then we will clash again and again, over principles.
The only way I see to permanently resolve this is if either character either backs down, not getting involved(as most of the party did in the last discussion), which is why I see you as the "leader"-role, as you seem to have set Numalar up to be just that, in the later parts, and regarding directions to go and actions to take, seem to be the most vocal together with Alia. Or, alternatively, if either character is willing to change their actual outlook and values.
That is what I meant on compromising by changing opinions. Actions are fine gestures, but ultimately, either Alia backs down, or one or both change. Otherwise the next moral dilemna will have them argue all over again.

Current argument: You would be right that I would prefer doing this ourselves, if we are properly equipped to do so. As it stands, I don't feel Tor could be given a fair trial...since the ones to judge him would be an involved party. We can pretend to be objective but usually that is when a third, neutral party, gets involved. The second problem I see(and which I attempted to point out) is that there is a very...very limited range of decisions we can realistically implement. Imprisonment of some kind would be a very essential thing to have available to speak justice for those crimes not demanding judgement as harsh as the death penalty. As such, it felt the limited options and reluctance to let them go free would be used to "push" towards the only reasonably possible other outcome, killing them off, and I felt it was a farce talking about it if we don't really have options.

Morals: I figured it's not so much a matter of good or evil. I felt it more of a thing of "rules" vs. "gut feeling". You say yourself that Numalar is very bound by responsibility, by traditions, by what he considers to be right. As such, you are incredibly lawful. Not so much Lawful good, or lawful evil, but more lawful lawful.
The counterpoint I attempted to make here was to disregard obligations and rule systems and go with "what feels right", even if that means acting differently from what would be expected, or what is standard, or from how one acted last time.
That is, try and "shake" Numalar out of his stiffness, and expecting that you would, in turn, cool my temper. So aye, while I stuck to "good" as befitting Alia, I was more trying to approach this on a Law vs Chaos axis- (also it's very easy to fall into a uncaring pattern by blindly obeying rules, a gently sloped path into evilness, not for being evil, but for not caring if what one does IS as long as it follows the rules - not at all stating that is so for Numalar, just saying that using rules as a justification for actions often tends to make said actions become more and more extreme as the person blindly believing in rules becomes less and less caring and questions their actions less and less, once a routine has been established)

Poshment Underhill wrote:

Leafcutter Kobold wrote:

"Okay, okay. First word. Sounds like. Sounds like leaf. Leafcutter! No? Leaf. It's a wet leaf. Wet. Water. Drip. Dripping wet leaf? Wet? Moist? Moist leaf? ... Ground. Grass. Grass? Grass. The grass is wet. The grass is moist. Damp! The grass is damp! Damp? Sounds like damp. Er. Damp. Um lamp? Ramp? Stamp? Clamp? Camp? Camp! It's a camp? Camp.... Okay. Second word...."

Makes me think of this from South Park: https://youtu.be/3MTMEIUwPcA

Funnily enough, my mind often works like this, latching onto all kinds of different things at once, branching to a new and unrelated topic before getting to the end of something.

Me too actually. Usually I end up having to reread what I've just written and then compare it to whatever it was that had compelled me to write it and see if it makes all the points, answers all the questions and does all the things I initially needed it to.

It does make me worry if I have some form of Autism or something, but I don't really know until I get the chance to see a therapist for some other issues. Or that could just be me being paranoid and attempting to draw lines between points that have nothing to do with each other :p

I'm busy, busy, busy and then most-likely tired, tired, tired all day. So I won't be able to post until tomorrow.

Take your time, even if you have no time to deal with me right now, there's no need to hurry..
I'll patiently wait for that requested PM no matter how long it will take and try to minimize my game impact until then.(that is, tag along and only react to direct prompts).

Alright, first off major spoiler: Eventually the characters in the Kingmaker AP get the opportunity to rule the lands they are chartered with exploring.

It is sort of a major point in the plot that eventually there will be a lot of politics that is never really expanded upon in any of the books but vaguely hinted to in about a paragraph's worth of text.

Coming from a background of heavy politic games like Vampire: the Masquerade and Mage: the Ascension I like some politics. Coming from RPGs in general I like hard decisions. Things like this can define characters and groups of characters. (I also like big complicated set piece fight scenes with lots of moving parts but that's another matter.)

Now while it is true I like a little disruption in the ranks and often encourage it I should point out that in a recent PM regarding the subject of an elven enclave that I did heavily hint against the idea of based on Brevoy's current position that they own the Stolen Lands.

Basically, I don't want to run your characters for you (hence the reason I suck at botting and often leave Posh twiddling off to the side). You can make your own character's choices and yes--mistakes as well.

I drop lots of pieces in the pot and wait to see what rises to the top and tease those for story possibilities. If the player's pass on it I let it slide into the background and cook some more. If they follow the trail I try and figure out how it all fits and run with it. All the PCs have a background story and some characters attached to them. My hope is that most if not all will make an appearance in the game at some point with motives and stories all their own. There are a lot of named GM and module characters running around as well--same thing. Some are happy accidents like Felton the surviving bandit from before my time or Faeria the Mad who was based on a character straight out of some NPC guide I had laying around. In my home game neither went as far, but Grogan's wolf Gale survived and got adopted by a loving speckled family. The home game PC's never had one of Mung's meat pies, but made a self-absorbed tengu conjuror their kingdom's chief magi. In the other game it was the down-to-heath, hatchet-wielding fighter who was the first to 'die' and so on.

In this game there is a connection to Kyonin, in my other game the half-elf life oracle comes from a monastic background and had no truck with elves so there isn't a connection. In this game we have folks who grew up among them so the connection came about because it fits. If we don't make a ton of use of it no real worries.

This is a kit-bashed story; simple as that. Anything could happen. It is conceivable that the PCs could become insurgent guerilla fighters in your own kingdom in this game. Yes, there are definitely some set pieces, but there are a million possible ways to get there.

****

Alia/Mordred, If I said 'moral compass', I apologize. I probably should have said: 'guide', 'counterbalance' or 'aide to the group's moral compass'--which is actually a title everyone has. Everyone gets to push the pointer on this Ouija board. I'm guessing at the time I was seeing Alia--a serious seeming sort, as being a good foil for the somewhat-shady Fronar (who had fallen off the face of the game) and the not-as-shady-as-I-thought-Posh (who had just arrived) what with the exit of more 'civilized' characters like Bella, Valeska.

Hope that clears up more things than it muddles.

Haha. Scarlet's a simple mercenary who lives for the fight, but she has a soft spot for loners and freaks. I've no idea where this story will lead her. Sounds like fun.

It sounds like there are a lot of difficult decisions we'll have to make about how we will end this campaign, but I am also the kind of person who is willing to make quick decisions if it moves the story along. Sometimes you need to trust your gut and wait for the story to drop more breadcrumbs.

That's my 2 cents, anyhow.

Haha. Scarlet's a simple mercenary who lives for the fight....

There's definitely something to be said for that. Another Kingmaker game that fell through I played Ozak Daggertooth, a half-orc double axe-wielding mercenary and devotee of Gorum. He really didn't care about any of that stuff, and just wanted to fight, the bigger the fight the better. His only moral beef was the "unfair" fight. He didn't like to see big guys pick on little guys... that wasn't a "real fight."

Of course, Ozak would probably have gone around CDG'ing everyone who was down. At 1st level his CDG would typically be about 31.5 damage, possibly more if buffed. Numalar on the other hand might not even break the skin on a CDG. :)

Hope that clears up more things than it muddles.

Yes, I think it has.

Re: Differences of Opinions:

Not spoilering this as I think it is the most important.

The thing is, as characters of different alignments, we are inevitably going disagree on some things. Numalar is not about to become chaotic; he probably wouldn't even hit neutral. I don't expect Alia to change alignments either.

But a party of characters with different alignments should be able to work together. We should be able to "agree to disagree." And the most sensible way to do that is to defer such decisions to the party as a whole, and accept that the party as a group is not always going to want to do what we want individually.

And if the issue of executions comes up again, rather than reopen the death penalty debate, you could just say "You know how I feel about the death penalty." Because we all do.

No hurry to answer any of this... part of it is venting. And some of this stuff deals with things that are a long way off in the game.

Da Loot:

(Suggestions as to who takes what are included, but I don't know what you are thinking, so speak up if you want/don't want something)

Edit: added the sell value of the gear in gp at the start of each line.

125 mwk chain shirt, (Zokon? This would bring your ACP to zero with your trait. Or Scarlet, who could probably use the AC when she enlarges.)
2.5 buckler,
25 heavy crossbow,
155 mwk battleaxe
1 dagger,
87.5 mwk studded leather, (Celyne - Replace your armor with mwk version)
275 mwk repeating light crossbow (can anyone use this?)
2 repeating crossbow bolts (20)
10 rapier
27.5 masterwork trap-building tools
2.5 spell component pouch (Alia?)
? spellbook (Alia)
5 each small leather armor (3)
0.5 each small javelin (12) (Posh?)
6 each small klar (3) (Numalar will take one just in case, won't use it much.)
7.5 each small scimitar (3)
151 Masterwork dagger
25 + 0.5 heavy crossbow (with 10 bolts)
scroll of magic missile (3rd level) (Numalar?)
scroll of shield (Alia?)
potion of cure moderate wounds (Scarlet? Between bloodrage and enlarge she seems like she can potentially take a lot of hits)
265 gp and 5 sp (from various pouches)
(not sure what we can get - the poison retails for 150 per dose) five medium spider envenomed bolts.
12.5 donkey with a bridle and pack saddle. (party)
? Three bronze Aspis coins
? Grogan's Sapphire Appraise DC20: 1d20 + 5 ⇒ (14) + 5 = 19 Not quite! Anyone want to roll appraise?
? Strongbox Anyone have disable device?

About Da Loot:

1. I do not want the Aspis "coins." Does anyone want to keep them?

2. We were going to leave them one dagger each. There was only one normal dagger in the pile, plus a masterwork one. Do people just want to throw in two normal daggers and keep Tor's masterwork dagger? Or do we want to add one dagger and let them keep Tor's good dagger? Do we let Meg keep her rapier instead of a dagger?

3. Someone needs to roll a 20 on appraise for us to know what the sapphire is worth. Also we need disable device to open the strongbox - or maybe a crowbar and some STR checks.

Can I aid another on Appraise checks? I do have 1 rank.
Appraise: 1d20 + 2 ⇒ (15) + 2 = 17

I don't have a crowbar, but...
Str Check: 1d20 + 3 ⇒ (19) + 3 = 22
Someone hand me something and I'll crack it open!

I'd like to keep:

Can I aid another on Appraise checks? I do have 1 rank.

You can aid. Just note that you are doing so.

Celyne will take the mwk studded leather if that's okay...

is the repeating crossbow martial instead of simple? if Celyne can use it she will replace her regular light xbow with it, if not, someone else can use it, or we can sell it.

is the repeating crossbow martial instead of simple?

Actually it's exotic.

ok thanks... so she can't use it, no problem.. we should maybe sell it then.

We need a rogue.. lol... If anything happens to Celyne her replacement is gonna be a rogue/skill monkey type...

Scarlet Scarab wrote:

Can I aid another on Appraise checks? I do have 1 rank.

You can aid. Just note that you are doing so.

Yup, I'm aiding Numalar, then.

ok thanks... so she can't use it, no problem.. we should maybe sell it then.

Yeah, I didn't think anyone could use it but I thought I would check.

So we also add to the list:
200 gp,
500 sp
375 five doses of medium spider venom.

I'd like to keep:

Mwrk Chain Shirt would be great. Zokon can also take this if he's concerned.

How much do you care about armor check penalty? If you don't care then Zokon could possibly take this and give you his regular chain shirt if that works. The issue is skills like stealth and acrobatics.

@RPGGGM/Numalar: It definitely clears things up.
But I would still request a PM(from GM, not Numalar) regarding alterations necessary.

Since Peet talked to you before posting, I feel that you also consider changes necessary.
I did try and explain my reasoning(including the fact that said colony would be sponsored by the Winter Court, NOT official Kyonin, and giving away that her whole mission is not sanctified by Kyonin government, and rather a Covert Op carried out for the extremists among elves.). As such, Kyonin would not be a valid sponsor for the Kingdom, at most, it could decide to interfere in some way, or try to apply policital pressure, but they'd definitely not stand in the way of independence.(as such, the worries you mentioned, peet, are insubstantial in my opinion...any elven sponsorship would have had a rather short timer attached before it fails.)
Also, something we did talk about was "taking it slowly", that still only happens if elves get a foot into the door, if there is a reason for Elves to be here.
GM did hint that the Enclave would not be an optimal idea, but when I attempted to explain my thoughts that led to the idea, no more feedback was provided.
In my eyes, the topic is off the table and in GM's hands. Alia will not bring it up again. She will still have her prejudice against humans(and other short-lived races) to an extent as otherwise it would be a complete reversal of who she is, but she will not push for anything Elf/Kyonin/Winter-Court related ever again, that ball is back to GM, if he still wants to utilize the politics part after I spilled the beans.

Most simply, she will learn that a renewed assault by Treerazor further damaged the Maleficus Spike, leading to an abandoning of the plans the Winter Court had for Telvurin, since the resources they intended to use here, in the stolen lands, are needed desperately elsewhere. Obviously she won't share that info with others, but it's a good in-character reason why she won't expect reinforcements, won't expect to be able to get elves here, and won't push for finding what she's been searching.(yet may have gotten other, new and/or secret objectives *shrug*)

Regarding the Moral Compass: I did not misunderstand, I interpreted it pretty much in that way, and definitely did not intend to be a counterpoint to anybody specific(Numalar simply happened to argue against the points she tried to make). I just meant to strictly etablish her in a way that would allow her to function as a moral guide in the future, especially after a kingdom was to be founded, with her heavy focus on long-term thinking, yet lack of experience- As such, she was set up to offer what she THINKS works best, but not insist on anything because she does not KNOW.

That can still be. But the fact her mission was basically declared a failure will leave marks. Such as an unwillingness to argue for her points, from a shattered self-confidence. That will also be true, then, for regular talks. She'll offer her opinion. If it's opposed, she'll simply accept what the other party states.

@Numalar: Gut feelings - you completely misunderstand. Numalar was never supposed to change or go with HIS gut feeling. But since he's so highly lawful(as you say, subjective, I would have pegged him LN, not LG, but lawful either way)) and vocal, I wanted a chaotic counter-point to that. Which was to go with gut feeling. For Alia. She shot at dappled at the fair, a Wolf, with a bounty, who attacked someone. She saw Fan and thus Scarlet waver, and her next shot was to defend the wolf. Had she not followed her "gut feeling" and instead aimed that second "one-in-a-million"-shot at the wolf, dappled would have been dead.
So yeah, it worked out just fine for her, there. But would not for Numalar. Much as his laws will never do it for Alia. That's all fine.

@Differences of opinion: I already stated that I will leave it up to others. Neither of us will change, that's obvious. But you ignored the obvious other option, of either party submitting.
You brought this up, as a player-to-player talk, because the way I was running Alia was causing issues for you, making the game less fun, and you repeatedly imply that it is also so for others.(such as the remark "We all do" in regards to the suggestion I should simply shorten my opinions into a single statement because the content was already stated plenty.
So, yeah. Alia will submit. She has her opinion, but she doesn't need to argue her points or see them realized. She may know she's in the right, but what good does it do.
It's the easiest way to handle things, to make sure no future clashes happen.

@Leadership: As you please. Alia was never set up for a leadership role, and never opted for a specific spot - she was to be a young(well, for elves) idealistic person believing that everything can be made to work out, nobody is beyond redemption, and good will prevail in the end. Failure of her mission will put a serious damper on that optimism as she is confronted with how things run in real life.
As such, yeah, she'll try and not abstain from her votes.(do note, however, that by basic psychology, the way a query is taken or a question formulated already suggest a certain course of action, so even if numalar is "asking" for input, he's already wielding that power. Perfectly fine with me, just saying that the prince holding the chair would always be primus inter pares...

@Recent argument: Again, a thing of the past. Why would there be someone to blame, at all? You brought something up that was possible to misunderstand, I did misunderstand. Things happen. As for an independent third party: Honestly, Alia would have hoped for someone corrupt who lets them live, that would have been her primary reason for going for that option.(but ultimately, would have settled for pretty much anybody, so pick whoever you like if it happens again).

@Imprisonment: You will find that in one of the posts above, I specifically stated that I want the prisoners to do something useful. Work camps, so to say. Not slave labor, but forced labor nonetheless. Where they have something useful to do and learn a trade that they can use to make a living after their sentence is over. E.g. road building would definitely come up if we run a kingdom here, or farming. Basically I'm advocating reformation camps, with labor, (re-)education, and a perspective for the future. But still, functionally prisons. They stay for their sentence, they can't leave.

Aye. I'll try and copy the spellbooks spells, can take the component pouch and the scroll.

I would take the 3 Aspis Coins, for 2 reasons:
a.: If we run into enemies of the Consortium, I can show them as proof that I took them as trophies after defeating members.
b.: If we run into more consortium lackeys, we could try and pose as consortium members, if doing so seems beneficial to us.

If neither situation comes up, it's unlikely they cause trouble if hidden away, if someone finds them and asks, it's easy to tell the true story.

Just a suggestion, though.

@Celyne: Yeah, you be the rogue. If something happens to Alia, I'll go Aldori Dueling Style Swordlord Noble-Scion from Brevoy.

Tor's spellbook contains the following spells:

2nd level—acid arrow, ghoul touch, mirror image, scorching ray, spider climb

1st level—alarm, disguise self, endure elements, magic missile, obscuring mist, shield, shocking grasp, true strike, ventriloquism

0 level—all the standard wizard 0-level spells you find in the Core Rule Book

Total cost: 430gp

Hey Zokon is not skilled enough?

Mwk chainshirt would be great as per Numalars logic.. in trade for my chainshirt..

Other than that the poison would be useful ... How dou you view poison GGGM?

@ Alia:

OK, here's an update:

Claimed Items:
125 mwk chain shirt, (Zokon? offering his regular chain shirt to Scarlet?.)
155 mwk battleaxe (Scarlet)
87.5 mwk studded leather, (Celyne)
2.5 spell component pouch (Alia)
215 spellbook (Alia) I presume this will be sold after copying?
scroll of magic missile (3rd level) (Numalar?)
scroll of shield (Alia?)
potion of cure moderate wounds (Scarlet)
12.5 donkey with a bridle and pack saddle. (party)
6 small klar (Numalar will take one.)
30 Three bronze Aspis coins (Alia)
375 five doses of medium spider venom. (Zokon?)

Items That Tor keeps:
1 dagger,
Camping Gear & Rations

Items to be sold:
275 mwk repeating light crossbow
151 Masterwork dagger
2 repeating crossbow bolts (20)
27.5 masterwork trap-building tools
2.5 buckler,
25 heavy crossbow,
10 rapier
5 each small leather armor (3)
0.5 each small javelin (12)
6 each small klar (2)
7.5 each small scimitar (3)
25 + 0.5 heavy crossbow (with 10 bolts)
? five medium spider envenomed bolts.
Total 568 gp.

Coin & Valuables:
465 gp and 505 sp (from various pouches)
200 Grogan's Sapphire
Total: 715.5 gp

Mwk chainshirt would be great as per Numalars logic.. in trade for my chainshirt...

If Scarlet doesn't mind the ACP then this seems like the best option. But she has masterwork studded leather which makes me thing ACP may matter to her. Scarlet?

Other than that the poison would be useful ... How do you view poison GGGM?

The poison isn't especially powerful... 1d2 STR damage and cured with 1 save. So there's a chance even if they fail the first save they only take 1 point of STR damage, which does nothing. You also don't have the poison use feature, do you? So there is a chance you could poison yourself.

I have no problem with you taking it but you have to ask: is it worth 375 gp? You could get +1 arrows for 46 gp each.

The poison is probably not worth it at that price, for sale!!

The masterwork dagger we may want to keep. +1 to hit on a weapon that can be thrown is P or S, 19-20 crit range... and can be enchanted.

@Peet

@Kyonin: Ok, so there's one reason for the misunderstanding, then. The way your stated it, I suppose you checked out the Winter Council(apologies, always named it winter court...too much seelie/unseelie fey elven stuff going on) now- any push of Alia for Elven backing was doomed to fail, and at most provide a relevant political plot point later on- or mix things up, e.g. by gainined independence from them, then having Brevoy move in to reclaim the area. *shrug* No worries, I never played Kingmaker and MOSTLY avoided spoilering myself, so anything that happens will be news to me, anyway.
Also, I have no idea if I still have that mission. I would assume so, in a "yeah, your main mission is a failure(even if its not your fault), so at least accomplish the secondary objective or don't bother coming back home...and don't expect any more support from us because we're busy with demons in tanglebriar."-kind of way. Up to GM, though.

@Difference of Opinion: Neither did I expect Numalar to back down. But on that same account, I did not expect that you would have a problem with me going so far that we use GM as a mediator in a player-to-player talk. As such, it's really the easiest solution.
I don't have the time to invest into lenghty discussions any more, trying to justify my position or convince someone that the way she thinks things should be done could work out well.
In the end, it makes no difference, except that it takes less posting. You submit to the group, as do I. Only that I will not contest suggestions, or offer counterpoints based on her views. So if Numalar(or anyone else) feels it necessary to argue for a point, or feels strongly enough to contradict her on a point, she'll let it go and accept.
On that account, I will also add the "Doubt" Drawback to her once she learns that what she tried to accomplish will never come to be.

@winning over numalar: but none of that would have been very fitting. It takes analyzation, preparation, or mental calculation. Alia is impulsive, following her instincts. If you were a hawk, circling for prey in perfect circles, Alia would be a butterfly, seemingly randomly fluttering across the meadow into a general direction. I could have attempted to try that kind of logic with Numalar, approach him from those angles HE cares about. But those are not one's Alia feels strongly about, and she's too straightforward/not manipulative enough to consider using such "backdoors" to influence others. I honestly appreciate that you explain what would work on him, but she thinks too differently to reasonably consider those.
Then again, the same is true the other way round...as to why your arguments hardly reached Alia and usually got her to offer a counterpoint to them.

@First among equals: I suppose it depends. A friend of mine got to play Kingmaker, and they had it handled that every player had an area of concern that they dealt with and had rulership over, EXCEPT the king.
For every single decision that was to be made, things were put to vote, and the responsible person(who's area of concern it was) has a triple-vote, and the king could veto a decision made. So in the end, the king had no direct power, but could still influence everything, where everybody else had direct power, but could only influence one area strongly.
In a Skulls and Shackles game, we split the "Captain"-job among our Witch Coven, with everybody having a secondary job like ship's doctor or helmsman. Since it's three witches, its 2 out of 3, or in case of deliberation, First Mate decides.(but everybody gets to make their input, only the in-character decision-making is done by the three)
Many systems that can work, or fail.
As for Alia's role, I think I stated those she'd fit best in her initial application, but I don't like "building for a role", or aiming for a certain combination down the road. I prefer characters to feel/grow organic. So yeah, depending on what happens during the campaign, Alia may be best suited to Magister but despise the job, begging someone else to take it. Or be perfectly content. I mean, we are telling a story here, not running an excel spreadsheet optimization, If GM wants to pressure us he will do so, regardless of wether we run with optimal job performance or not.
As such, it could just as well be that z.g. Zokon ends up ruler despite his awful charisma, because he has family bonds that may be beneficial, while Numalar could be better suited for the job but not be great choice because the mostly human population of the stolen lands has certain prejudices regarding gnomes(obsessions, wanderlust, whimsical, fey-ish tricksers, physical pranksters with odd heads).
Just saying, I would definitely not want to oppose your character plans and I suppose it's almost guaranteed you end up ruler, but PERSONALLY, I would prefer a more "fluid/organic" approach that leaves things open.

@Spellbook: I considered bringing it to Faeria if we pay a visit to Restov again, checking up on her. If we manage to build up a friendship with her, she could possibly be helpful later in the AP? Or sell it, or burn it, no worries, I'll copy the spells since it saves gold later, but no strong feelings about the books fate. Of course, we could also ship it to that place you sent Tor to, giving him some incentive to REALLY go there and wait for his spellbook(retconning telling him we will do so).

@poison: 1 point of strenght damage could very well do something. Think of a Two-handed guy with 18 strenght...+4 hit/+6 damage mod. If he_s done to 17? +3 hit/+4 damage mod.
Regardless I agree it's not worth the trouble. It could be fancy as an alpha strike, opening combat with a few arrows but I doubt it's the kind of reputation we want to build- also, most poisons are terribly overpriced by RAW so unless RPGGGM lets you make some with Knowledge Nature/Survival and Craft Alchemy, for free, I would not bother with them most of the time-

I know the value isn't high, but add Celyne's old normal studded leather armor to the loot list to sell.

I think the Coins and valuables is off, I tried to track down the Sapphire to see if it may be something with personal value to him, but only found the post with the gains. Since we made the Appraise, I looked, and it's listed as 100 GC, but in the later list, you intend to sell it at 200- aiming for an upmark or mistake? :)

Or did it spontaneously duplicate, like them horses generating by mitosis ^_^
I mean, you also spontaneously came back as a copy, so maybe this whole land has a kind of magic going that duplicates stuff...if we find out how it works we could try and dupe some equipment ;)
Just kidding, but wanted to point it out, and have some fun-

Zokon Santyev wrote:

Mwk chainshirt would be great as per Numalars logic.. in trade for my chainshirt...

If Scarlet doesn't mind the ACP then this seems like the best option. But she has masterwork studded leather which makes me thing ACP may matter to her. Scarlet?

I can deal with the ACP penalty for now. Acrobatics is the main skill I want to focus on- Scarlet should have the freedom to dart around the battlefield to hit important targets. But +1 AC is too good to pass up right now. Gimme!

Nasty ACP, yes. We'll all want fancy mithral chainshirts, eventually ;)
So we can cartwheel across the battlefield, turning into stabby and slashy little balls of doom as we do a salto of death charging our enemies.
Also, I'll eventually want to add Feather Step Slipper Effect to whatever shoework I end up wearing

Other than that the poison would be useful ... How dou you view poison GGGM?

I don't see poison as being all that more evil than longswords. Heck even Tarzan used poison.

That said, 1d2 Strength damage with bad rolls over the course of several rounds can be pretty devastating--especially if you happen to accidentally do it to yourself!

And if we want meta-gaming(because my group believes my dice are loaded, anyway): If they roll bad, it can be devastating...if they roll good, thats a great roll they didn't use to cause trouble for us.

Since poison is most prominently used by NPC's, players tend to face it with moderate regularity: In my home group, a few weeks ago, one player was furious when during a battle he made 3 saves against poison, each with a natural 20...but none of his swings connected because he rolled 5 or lower on the attack rolls - most efficient use I got out of poison recently, I think ;)

Hey Zokon is not skilled enough?

Won't you be playing the android cleric Healbot451?

Healbot451: What is this moisture on Healbot's face plate?

Amazed companion: Why Healbot, you're crying.

Great, GM, now I have to look for a Iron Gods recruitment and submit a android cleric named "Marvin(formerly Healbot451)".(with Metal Subdomain and Constuct Subdomain)
Thanks a LOT!

I shouldn't bother. It would only depress you.

That and you guys are right on the boarder of Numeria so don't be surprised if Iron Gods drops in and visits you.

Great, GM, now I have to look for a Iron Gods recruitment and submit a android cleric named "Marvin(formerly Healbot451)".(with Metal Subdomain and Constuct Subdomain)

Thanks a LOT!

I had a great idea for a home campaign to play an android rogue (underground chemist) who has the feat related to her not knowing where she came from nor why she woke up inside a strange metal structure that she managed to escape from. She has no idea of her past, but the GM didn't like that so now she's human, but still with the suggestion of having no idea why she was there.

I'd love to get a chance to one day play my Hobgoblin fighter, who I based on Ka D'argo from Farscape. Basically similar backstory, but with a Elf wife who is killed to frame him for murder by his own step-brother. Their home being Molthune which is why he has such a position of power.

@poison: 1 point of strenght damage could very well do something. Think of a Two-handed guy with 18 strenght...+4 hit/+6 damage mod. If he_s done to 17? +3 hit/+4 damage mod.

FYI this is not how ability damage works, unless this is a house rule.

For every 2 points of damage you take to a single ability, apply a –1 penalty to skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability.

Ability damage doesn't actually reduce an ability score (though Drain does). It just gives you a penalty for every two points of ability damage you have. A single point gives no penalty at all.

Usually I know, my mistake, mixed it up with drain, but

Strength: Damage to your Strength score causes you to take penalties on Strength-based skill checks, melee attack rolls, and weapon damage rolls (if they rely on Strength). The penalty also applies to your Combat Maneuver Bonus (if you are Small or larger) and your Combat Maneuver Defense.

still is useful, especially for nonlethal takedowns...

I used to think it worked the way you said, until I was corrected at a PFS session.

The main advantage of poison seems to me to be that it takes no extra actions; you can put them on weapons in advance. So it is a "free" boost.

But compare it to a scroll of Ray of Enfeeblement, which costs 1/6th the amount. Poison just seems way overpriced to me.