Of Kings and Commoners - Kingmaker AP

Game Master RPGGGM

You played with my home Group, Scarlet? Their first response to problems almost always includes violence-
No matter if that Approach causes even MORE problems for them ;)

Hey.. I'm A SLAYER!!.. what else do you expect me to do.? ;o)

Hum? Slayer? Is that a Profession skill that Rangers get? ^_^

I am calling out to you exactly what I wrote, in character.

Fine, but may I suggest player to player that a more productive avenue would be to try to get the axe guy to call off his wolf?

I have no way of dealing with it other than trying to kill it; I can't withdraw without exposing Hal to attack, and so far you haven't said in character why you think the wolf is tame. Numalar doesn't know about the axe guy yet.

Trying to tell me that the wolf who is currently trying to rip my throat out is "tame" without telling me why or how to deal with it doesn't do me much good. The best I could do is go total defense, but I don't think I can tell Sir Didymus to do that.

Well, my first action was to call out to axe guy to try and get him to reign in his wolf, with the warning shot attached because of failed Sense Motive.

GM decided he doesn't hear me over the crowd, and he's now after the correct wolf.

I would like to elaborate, but I tried to keep it reasonably short, considering it's a free action shout-out while I'm powering up my weapon and readying to shoot at the dappled one.

I totally understand, also that from your perspective things look differently, but I basically exhausted the options I had by trying to call out to the wolfs owner, then calling out to you guys.

Things will go whatever way they will. You could always reconsider using lethal force after my shout-out, maybe Scarlet will instead hit with the broad of her blade. If it's only knocked out, things will be a lot less "messy" than if we kill it I guess. Or I could be completely wrong and Axeguy doesn't care about his expendable trained animals-

We will learn in time ;)

You could always reconsider using lethal force after my shout-out,

The only non-lethal thing Numalar currently has in his arsenal is daze which only works on humanoids. Or, like I said, I could go total defense, but that wouldn't help Sir Didymus.

Or I could be completely wrong and Axeguy doesn't care about his expendable trained animals-

It may also be that he set the wolf on us to keep us away from his prize. We really don't know. I have some suspicions about this encounter that it might go beyond just ordinary men and animals.

I can't read minds or speak with animals, but it feels to me like the wolf was deliberately attacking, and not just reacting to a perceived threat. Wolves and other canines tend to flee when startled, unless they are cornered or otherwise cannot escape. And if everyone else is running around in a panic, and that didn't spook the wolf, I have a hard time imagining that a gnome with a spear on a dog would.

I could be wrong, but that's my feeling.

RPGGGM wrote:

Produce Flame *sigh* is not technically a touch spell ("Range 0 ft.").

Well, this was from James Jacobs. I know he's not the rules guy but he weighed in on the subject a while back. His response is not entirely clear but it seems that the RAI behind produce flame should work as a touch spell since that is what it is for. It isn't good for much else, though it does have some incidental uses. It honestly never occurred to me that it would work any other way.

If you want to work it this way we can but we haven't been playing that way so far this campaign.

Yeah, I've seen James's post, and it's true to a point it does work that way once it is active (though it acts like a thrown weapon too). The question in my mind has always been when does it come on-line? Shocking grasp comes on-line the second it is cast and is instantaneous. But I have often felt that produce flame has always been in the flavor of other druid spells (that's whose list it started out on after all) and is more of a utility spell (you can use it as a torch) and that it takes a moment to rev up like call lightning rather than more traditional and immediate offensive spells like magic missile, burning hands or lightning bolt which are flavor-wise usually the privy of arcane casters like wizards and sorcerers. I mean why give it the range it has otherwise? Why not call it a touch spell that you can throw every now and then?

Either way, I do not have a strong opinion on the subject given the spell's success rate in past and present games I've played in or GM'ed. So touch spell it is. If I ever forget just link me back to this post and I'll eat my hat if I happen to be wearing one. ;)

Pathfinder has taught me a half-dozen Murderhobos are the solution to every problem.

I can think of a few situations that murderhobos would probably prove to be very unhelpful in. ;)

The only non-lethal thing Numalar currently has in his arsenal is daze which only works on humanoids. Or, like I said, I could go total defense, but that wouldn't help Sir Didymus.

What about your spear and claws? You don't have to deal lethal damage with physical attacks. It lowers hit chance, but it is a real possibility.

It may also be that he set the wolf on us to keep us away from his prize. We really don't know. I have some suspicions about this encounter that it might go beyond just ordinary men and animals.

I can't read minds or speak with animals, but it feels to me like the wolf was deliberately attacking, and not just reacting to a perceived threat. Wolves and other canines tend to flee when startled, unless they are cornered or otherwise cannot escape. And if everyone else is running around in a panic, and that didn't spook the wolf, I have a hard time imagining that a gnome with a spear on a dog would.

I could be wrong, but that's my feeling.

Well, I'm mostly seeing it in comparison to Luna. Luna is also not automatically spooked by everybody else reacting panicked, as long as Celyne seems fine, who she is imprinted on. Nor did your Dog seem particularily spooked and trying to flee unless controlled.

What about your spear and claws? You don't have to deal lethal damage with physical attacks. It lowers hit chance, but it is a real possibility.

I am already +0 with spear and claws. My STR is only 6. If I try to do nonlethal I will attack at a total bonus of -4 to hit, and you know that I always seem to roll poorly on to hit rolls.

Vega may still be nervous but that's probably because I need another level to properly train him.(and Celyne never had a chance after Restov to help out it seems).

I mean it's not a wild animal, it's at least trained.

Is it? I thought the only training the wererats were giving the animals was "kill all humans on sight." I don't think that's the same as teaching an animal a set of tricks.

BTW is it a he or a she?

@attacks: on the plus side, he's prone, so melee is back to 0 for you with a +4. My blunt arrows, however, are unlikely to be helpful. Diddy and Scarlet can still attempt to subdue it. Not everybody needs to do nonlethal to knock a target out before it's dying...

@trained: I meant the wolf is not a wild animal and trained. Didn't make that clear from wording.
Vega still is wild. I saw him as a male, considering they were all described as pretty large specimen. But I'm not a doctor, would have tried to guess once I learned a bit more(=>Handle Animal).

Hey.. I'm A SLAYER!!.. what else do you expect me to do.? ;o)

Drive a sleigh? :P

and sing a Slaying!!! song tonight Ho! Ho! Ho!.. gotta get ame a Red Suit nob for intimidatory purposes

Note there is this thread about produce flame, where James Jacobs chimes in on the use of the spell... might want to read it.

There seems to be a warning that we should figure out our plan, here. I think we need to flee the festival grounds with the wolves, post haste. Scarlet and Luna are the fastest on foot and could keep up with the wolves.

We could also form a shield around the wolves, claim them as ours and diplomatically lead them out, if you think we have a chance at that.

Or just kill the wolves and claim our souls bounties, you know whatever.

Aye. Also, sorry: I was not aware when he's standing there is miss chance, or I would have included a roll.

As was mentioned, it seems unnatural that a wolf would even come here. And he was ducking away, hiding. Not assaulting someone. Something is seriously off here.

I concur with Scarlet that we should try and get the wolves out of here, and regret having made the first one-in-a-million shot against dapples.
Also, that means the haggard one IS an enemy of ours.

Fleeing may be hard. Dappled is disabled(damn my lucky shot) and besieged by Valorin and Axedude.
Zokon could possibly get Valorin to stay his hand if he speaks out to him.

I think most important is that we all pull on the same string. I could still "claim" that I was shooting at the wolf again and axeguy simple moved into my line of fire. Even with a crappy bluff check, they may not be sufficiently convinced to hold it against me, as it IS a very difficult shot, and I DID shoot the wolf first...

Either way, Scarlet is my closest associate there and I'll follow her lead for now. Not particularily fond of Auric, but even Alia would figure somethings wrong about these wolves-

I would also suggest comparing notes on what you've learned to this point. Granted there are a few pertinent pieces you have only a vague awareness of but you should have all the clues you need to make an educated guess as to what is going on.

Sherlock Holmes or Encyclopedia Brown could do it were they real.

I'll provide some pointers:

-Farmer Gallows

-Tamris

-Grogan

Valorin is an incredibly tough sell when it comes to sparing wolves given his backstory. Zokon would know this and most others could infer it by the scars on his face.

none of those people (farmer gallows, tamris or grogan) are listed in the people of note section... and I don't recall anythings specific about them... can someone who takes notes or doesn't have a swiss cheese memory enlighten the rest of us? thanks...

none of those people (farmer gallows, tamris or grogan) are listed in the people of note section...

That's my bad, I haven't been able to keep it as up to date as I would like. You can search the thread though at the top of the page.

-Farmer Gallows
Jon Gallow's daughter was attacked by a wolf a few days ago.

-Tamris
Hermit. Fan was supposed to meet him at a stone marker. He's usually very on time and prompt, and Fan was surprised he didn't arrive.

-Grogan
I don't see that name in the thread. Is the spelling right?

I'm thinking Tamris is a werewolf by now and may have turned Gallow's daughter into a wolf. But...uh I don't know.

-Farmer Gallows

Jon Gallow's daughter was attacked by a wolf a few days ago.

-Tamris
Hermit. Fan was supposed to meet him at a stone marker. He's usually very on time and prompt, and Fan was surprised he didn't arrive.

-Grogan
I don't see that name in the thread. Is the spelling right?

I stand corrected. Searches won't find info nested in spoilers.... especially spoilers tagged Numalar. :)

I stand corrected. Searches won't find info nested in spoilers.... especially spoilers tagged Numalar. :)

The relevant stuff is not in the spoiler tag - the spoiler is just that people are standoffish because I'm a noble.

The relevant stuff about Grogan is that he's hired two new 'cronies,' Rolf and Hendson, and that nobody likes him but also he is one of the favorites to catch the wolf. Celyne also had this information, according to the post.

It is spelled "Grogon" once and "Grogan" twice, which might have confused the search engine.

I'm thinking Tamris is a werewolf by now and may have turned Gallow's daughter into a wolf. But...uh I don't know.

I suspected a werewolf right from the beginning, and this explains why Fan's story didn't make sense. Any more details on the haggard wolf?

Note there is this thread about produce flame, where James Jacobs chimes in on the use of the spell... might want to read it.

Yeah, that's the thread I linked to.

I concur with Scarlet that we should try and get the wolves out of here, and regret having made the first one-in-a-million shot against dapples.

Also, that means the haggard one IS an enemy of ours.

What a mess.

I would like to point out that just because the wolf "Rain" is a friend of Fan Auric's doesn't mean it isn't an enemy, and just because Grogan is known to be an asshat doesn't mean he isn't on our side.

We are basically forced to make a judgement call here without knowing much about what has happened behind the scenes. And somehow I doubt we are going to be able to get everyone to sit around a table and discuss this like adults.

Protecting wolves and killing humans is going to give us a very bad rep around here though. The fact that it is a werewolf won't be a mitigating factor for most people. And if lycanthropes are going around attacking people then we need to put a stop to it, no matter whose friends they are.

Even if we kill Grogan (which most people around here won't mind that much, though it will mark us as killers) we still have to call off Zokon's cousin.

Someone should try to get to Renault and have him try to get everyone to stand down.

It is spelled "Grogon" once and "Grogan" twice, which might have confused the search engine.

Damn fantastical names. >:\

Numalar Auritonius wrote:

It is spelled "Grogon" once and "Grogan" twice, which might have confused the search engine.

Damn fantastical names. >:\

We can switch his name to "Bob" if you want. :P

Well after a bit of puttering around the search function actually sort of sucks rocks.... Still pretty much all the clues the group needs to know how to proceed are here and here. That in addition to info gleaned from Fan should point you in the right direction to end the encounter at least.

Feel free to discuss for the next 24 and then we gotta move on with whatever you and the dice decide.

Personally I think we should go as we are.. we don't have magical forms of comms.. yet.. so we should play with the confusion and enjoy..

Personally I think we should go as we are.. we don't have magical forms of comms.. yet.. so we should play with the confusion and enjoy..

I do have message... but my caster level is low enough that I have to cast it three times to get everyone, so not going to happen in the middle of a fight.

BTW, This clue:

"Yeah, knowin' old Gallows it was probably a fat squirrel what jumped 'im. Still 250 crowns...." The young man's eyes glaze a bit at the thought of it.

Probably means that the "wolf attack" may be exaggerated in scope, and wasn't as bad as was reported.

Personally I think we should go as we are.. we don't have magical forms of comms.. yet.. so we should play with the confusion and enjoy..

I am willing to entertain the idea that you may have discussed things during your 6+ hours at the fair especially considering that both Numalar and Celyne both had the information.

Sorry I disappeared recently, i've been fighting off an Alien dominance of the world...

I don't know if there's anything we can do to save that other wolf...

The other wolf is now dead. Though technically - that is not our fault; we could have revived it. :P

As to Rain, we seem to have eliminated the lycanthrope angle. I am thinking either:

A: Someone turned onto an animal somehow,
or
B: Tamris' animal companion.

So, should I

A) Bloodrage and try to carry Rain out of the festival?

or

B) Intimidate Zokon's cousin and ruin his aim?

I'm trying to get this wolf out of here and we can figure this out later. I'm guessing this is Tamris's animal companion.

Just a point of clarification: 'Rain' is a boy dappled wolf, the other haggard, stricken wolf was a girl.

Pity about the girl wolf. But Rain is the one we're worried about now, anyway.
Also a point of clarification: I'm just following Scarlets lead on this. ^_^ Alia has no idea what's going on but she trusts her body guard...

Normally the bodyguard is supposed to trust her charge, but.
Eh, Scarlet trusts Fan.

in before "Fan's a Necromancer"

I think with what we've been through and did, it's fine to expect some mutual trust. I'd say you're a friend, more than an employ, for a while already.

in before "Kobolds took terrible revenge on Tamris for what they did to them, Fan now has a Wolf."

Eh, Scarlet trusts Fan.

Okay, but understand that Fan may not have all the information, and he certainly hasn't been very forthcoming with what information he does have.

Guys, what's your plan?

Samuel Renault and this community are going to be important to us, and as far as they know they are in the right in doing what they are doing. If we just run off with Fan and the wolf then everyone around here is going to treat us like outlaws. We may also be driving a wedge between Zokon and his cousin.

And we can't stay behind and make excuses for Fan and the wolf without knowing what the hell is going on, and we won't know unless Fan explains it to us, which he can't do if he's run off.

If Rain is in fact Tamris' animal companion then Tamris is responsible for Rain's actions. If Rain did really attack Miss Gallows, then he may owe some kind of compensation.

That's a lot of "ifs."

What do we know:

Clues: We do have reason to believe that Farmer Gallows' report about the wolf attack on his daughter might be exaggerated. People around here think he is excitable.

An investigation might reveal the truth, especially if we can interview the Gallows family. Celyne in particular has the means to discern the truth.

What is going on is a lot like a criminal case. And running off with the suspect instead of sitting down and getting to the bottom of it makes the suspect look guilty and makes us look like accomplices.

So what do you want to do?

I do have a theory though that might explain things.

Assume: Tamris is a character with an animal companion, which happens to be Rain.

What if Tamris and Farmer Gallows' daughter were lovers? Farmer Gallows walks in on them and throws a fit. In a rage he starts to push Tamris around. Rain, who was out of sight but nearby, reacts and attacks or at least menaces Farmer Gallows, and Tamris runs off into the night. Farmer Gallows, not getting the connection between Tamris and the wolf, reports the wolf attack to the community leaders, but to give it more gravity he says he was protecting his daughter from the wolf. And things go from there.

If Tamris had gone into hiding it explains why he wasn't there to meet Fan, and then Fan's story actually sort of checks out. It had a lot of coincidences and I am not a fan of coincidences, but his implausible story may have actually been the truth. The kobolds may have just been a random occurrence.

Who knows ..why the hell was the wolf under the wagon is the biggest question I have...

On another side note Numalar, Posh or anyone small can travel under the wagons without getting down on hands and knees if s/he likes but like the wolves or Luna they would be squeezed from above by the wagon bottom. You would gain some cover and/or concealment but not be able to move as freely as you might like to in fight.

On another side note Numalar, Posh or anyone small can travel under the wagons without getting down on hands and knees if s/he likes but like the wolves or Luna they would be squeezed from above by the wagon bottom. You would gain some cover and/or concealment but not be able to move as freely as you might like to in fight.

So this means 1/2 movement, right?

I think that means I am one square back from where I would have liked.

Who knows ..why the hell was the wolf under the wagon is the biggest question I have...

Yeah... an interesting question. What if Tamris sent it to find Fan? I don't know.

Scarlet isn't a big fan of the law and trusts her allies over the law any day. She personally doesn't care if she's labelled an outlaw or not, it won't be the first time.

What she does know is that people aren't thinking rationally, and as far as they know we just want the kill for ourselves. Her first priority is protecting Rain and getting him out of here. Once he's safe and we can calm everyone down, then we can have a rational talk, but right now there are several hunters (Zokon's cousin especially) who just see a furry bag of 250 gold we haven't killed yet.

I can try intimidating someone next round, maybe that will calm them down enough to listen for a minute.

What is going on is a lot like a criminal case. And running off with the suspect instead of sitting down and getting to the bottom of it makes the suspect look guilty and makes us look like accomplices.

So what do you want to do?

I concur with Scarlet that this is the core of the problem. "Sitting down" and getting to the bottom of it, for these people starts with killing the Wolf.

So one consideration was that you guys stay, trying to get things in order and find out what's going on, stalling a bit, but staying on Renaults and Valorin's good side.
Meanwhile Scarlet and me could "flee" and play "Answers. NOW!" with Fan Auric, and/or get Rain to reveal something about Tamris.(e.g. lead us somewhere...I'd assume he was there to fetch Fan). Plus, same as Scarlet, Alia is not a big fan of laws, especially those put in place by short-lived races. If it's one of her allies or the law, she'd not even stop to think before acting. Plus if we do find proof for what's REALLY going on, we could return with it and redeem ourselves.

I suppose a big questions is if they'd buy your bluff. Otherwise I would have went with the more believeable bluff that I have made it invisible. And it will have a couple minutes to get as far away from here as possible!(they need not know it'll only be 2 rounds...expecting to have to track it by pawprints later anyway may get them to stall a moment).

Your idea about whats behind it seems reasonable, I had a similar suspicion but yours works out even better.

Otherwise I would have went with the more believeable bluff that I have made it invisible.

Well, technically that wouldn't be a bluff, since it's true.

It is unlikely that anyone here (except maybe Bokken) knows the difference between invisibility and vanish, but both spells render a subject invisible. The point of the disintegrate bluff is to get the people here to stop looking for the wolf for the next two rounds, which they would still do if they thought the wolf was present but not visible. When the two rounds are up, the bluff will be off no matter what I said. At that point I can say "whoops, I was mistaken."

I concur with Scarlet that this is the core of the problem. "Sitting down" and getting to the bottom of it, for these people starts with killing the Wolf.

I totally disagree here. If the wolf dies, there is no conversation at all. The reward is collected and everyone goes home. And you and Scarlet are unlikely to be able to "get away" with the wolf. We may be in a wooded little valley but we are surrounded by plains and they could watch you run away for hours. Which means that unless you are willing to kill Grogan and Valorin we have to get them to stop and talk.

I know you guys are not much for "laws" but this isn't so much an issue of "law" as much as it is of a community trying to protect itself. That's not something you want to be seen as working against, and no matter your opinion of laws you probably don't think it's OK for wolves to savage young maidens, which is what everyone around here thinks happened.

And I'm not keen on the idea of throwing you and Scarlet under the bus. Blaming the "new guys" is not only a cop-out but if we disavow your actions it also puts us in a position where we might be expected to stand against you later, or at least stand aside when they pursue you, and then we are back to square one.

In the end, if Rain is really just an animal companion, then if he dies, well, he is still only a wolf. It would be sad and needless, but a wolf is not a person.

I had suspected that Rain was more than that, and at present Numalar is trying to use detect magic to see if there is more to it than that. In the meantime, the time to get Fan talking is now, not after you have "made your escape."

Have to say it looks like Posh is making more friends as usual :D

Well, technically that wouldn't be a bluff, since it's true.

It is unlikely that anyone here (except maybe Bokken) knows the difference between invisibility and vanish, but both spells render a subject invisible. The point of the disintegrate bluff is to get the people here to stop looking for the wolf for the next two rounds, which they would still do if they thought the wolf was present but not visible. When the two rounds are up, the bluff will be off no matter what I said. At that point I can say "whoops, I was mistaken."

You are very accurate in wording, hu? While technically correct, if you read on, it will become clear that the "bluff" is in the duration of the spell. I did not simply make Rain vanish, I made it fully invisible.

I feel disintegrate is just a incredibly far-fetched lie, as even peasants should know that THAT kind of magical power takes a immensely powerful caster. Make someone fall asleep, or hurt them, or grease the floor, sure...but make someone turn into dust, instantly slaying them? Hard stuff.

@your disagreement: well, bad luck for you, as our view of the situation differs. If they could see us run for hours, we should easily have seen Fan Auric from Olegs, right? Not like he could hide on such completely flat plains.
And if the wolf dies, we failed, and THEN I would likely try and kill Grogan and Valorin.
This community is not trying to protect itself, this community is trying to get a bounty. This wolf is not attacking and only defended itself. I very much WANT to be seen working to protect the innocent, regardless of their species or race, and work against those who would slay innocents for a bounty.

Also, if the wolf IS to get away, someone will have to take the blame. Hence as I said(and explained), if we manage to clear up whats the deal with Fan and Rain(and Tamris), we could likely easily clear things up as an misunderstanding.
If the wolf dies and this plot remains unresolved, we'll still have to explain what we were doing, why I shot Grogan, why we hindered Valorin, and aided the Wolf...and in that case, we have NO answers to give...