Discussion thread.
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What is your sibling's name?
Corrine
Please pick a sin from the Campaign info tab.
Are you going to be writing a journal?
Blast...I posted Demon's actions under mine cause we were so tired...he should have had separate posts.
I updated the rules to reflect our discussions. I'll modify them as we go. Should be: Movement and 5 ft. steps, Condition track, Dying, Massive damage, Clobbered, Bloodied, Iterative attacks, Fatigue, Terrain, Progressive feats, Criticals, Focus items, Counterspelling and Meta-magic.
They are not all exact or complete.
Please post the SAGA rules in the condition track. I was under the impression that the condition rules themselves covered things like fatigue and exhaustion. Including the Bloodied condition with the condition track AND the fatigued after x rounds means that you can easily be suffering -11 to everything at 50% HP, which is basically a death sentence. We definitely need to fix the overlap there.
After more consideration about the "fatigued while in combat thing", I think it should be based off something other than rounds/level. It's simple, but it doesn't actually make much sense. What if I'm not doing anything during that one round? What is the caster doing that's making him fatigued? The duration might be ok, but if it was based off of Con then it would make sense as far as running around getting tired.
Also, fatigue/exhuastion as written (-2 Str and Dex/-6 Str and Dex) doesn't really hinder casters in any meaningful way. Kirth's fatigue/exhaustion changed fatigue to -1 to everything, including caster checks, concentration checks, and ability DCs, and changed exhaustion to -3 to everything.
Where did you get levels 5 and 9 for your 5-foot step tiers? I would suggest changing that to either every 5 levels (5, 10, 15, 20), or base it off of iterative attack progression (BAB 6, BAB 11, BAB 16). My suggestion for taking a 5-foot step was to allow the defender a free 5-foot step when he is attacked, boosting that to a number of times per round equal to Dex modifier with Combat Reflexes, so that the movement happens all throughout the round rather than just on your turn.
I don't remember the rationale behind taking a 5-foot step before a full-attack, other than encouraging movement. I feel like there's definitely a more organic way to get what we want from that.
Finally, what kind of condition track while dying are you talking about?
I like Kirth's exhaustion idea. That sounds better. I'll update that.
The overlap I want to test. You know I like the feeling of danger. If it's just WAY too much (it likely is), we'll pull back.
I'll get the SAGA rules up. The condition track is purely numbers, nothing like fatigue or exhaustion included, but it's possible we could combine them. Hmm...
Perhaps fatigue at 1 rnd/lvl + Con bonus? And if we are in combat, and someone is taking no action, their adrenaline would still be through the roof. That's where a lot of fatigue comes from. So I still like it as every round. Easier to track, and you have no one arguing "well this action certainly doesn't count, right?"
My tier idea is every four levels. So when you get a stat boost, you also get a feat boost, and a combat boost...separates the levels a little, while keeping it balanced through everyone, and stacking with a preexisting idea.
The movement could be ruled to allow that as immediate actions, I suppose. But not to move away from an attack. After an attack, sure. So...retributive move, per se? And I do like the idea of Combat reflexes...hmmm...
I agree on more organic, but I'm not sure what yet.
Not sure on the dying track yet. That came from your idea, if I recall.
Streamlined down to Parry.
Where did you find DeathCon?
Ok, to summarize everything (and thanks to Vincent Takeda, Kaisoku, Davick, and Corodix for their suggestions, which have been incorporated).
Note one important difference from the original post, you make your Death Saving Throw at the END of your round (so creatures in DeathCon1 can act first).The main point of this system is: you cannot skip the Dying condition. This allows the DM to do as much ordinary damage as he likes without worry, and allows PC's to stay in battle down to close to 0 HP without fear of suddenly being dead – instead, the closer they get to 0 HP, the better the odds the next attack can take them into Dying. Once in DeathCon, the player knows exactly how close he is to dying, and gives his comrades some time to do something about it, but still hopefully leaves enough of a chance of death to make it exciting.
However, it is still relatively easy to kill someone once they get into DeathCon (3 failed Death Saving Throws and/or successful hits, in any combination), and a Dying PC will most likely (75%) end up dead if left on their own.
The DM still has many options as to how deadly he wants to be – once a PC drops into DeathCon2 (unconscious), the opponent could move on to someone else, or go for a Coup de Grace. And it’s still also possible to kill a PC in just one round from iterative attacks or from being surrounded by opponents.
It is closely based on D&D 4e's way of handling death&dying, but with a couple of small-but-important differences.
It closely mimics the way Pathfinder handles death&dying, but not exactly. Options to make it even more like Pathfinder are discussed afterwards.
Items in italics are options for the DM to decide how he wants to run things.
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When a character first drops to 0 or negative HP for the day, he is at DeathCon1*, and Dying. Negative HP is not tracked; Dying characters stay at 0 HP (any additional damage taken has no effect on HP, you stay at 0 HP).
DeathCon1 : you are Dying but conscious
......This allows the PC to make a choice – continue fighting, or seek healing
......Add any limitations you think appropriate (if any), like “all rolls and AC are at –2”, or “you can only take a Move or Standard action”, etc. These only apply while your HP=0.
DeathCon2 : you are Dying and unconscious
DeathCon3 : you are Dying and unconscious
DeathCon4 : you are dead, JimYou continue to make any allowed saving throws to end various effects thru DeathCon3.
Dying and Stabilizing
When you are Dying, you make an unmodified d20 Death Saving Throw at the end of your round.
......1-9 : your DeathCon increases by 1.
......10-19 : your DeathCon does not change.
......20 : your DeathCon does not change, and you automatically Stabilize.
When Stable, you no longer make Death Saving Throws, and stay at your current DeathCon and 0 HP.
......A teammate can also Stabilize you as normal with a DC=15 Heal skill check.
I personally would leave the Death Saving Throw roll unmodified, so that the chances of PC death are even across the board for the players' sake (as opposed to adding modifiers for “realism”). But if you want to add any modifiers, or even feats that add modifiers, feel free.Healing and Damage
While your HP=0, further damage increases your DeathCon by 1*, and makes you Dying if you were Stable.
Any amount of healing restores you to that many HP (since you've been staying at 0 HP), and automatically Stabilizes you.
However, your DeathCon value does not change until you get 8 hours rest, at which point it either (goes back to 0) or (decreases by 1).
Optional : while HP > 0, apply any penalties for running around while in DeathCon, like : all rolls are at –2*DeathCon, and casters have a spell failure of 10%*DeathCon (adjust values as you see fit).
......Note that this does NOT emulate how PF does death&dying, as there are no penalties for coming back from Dying in PF.
If you take damage down to ≤ 0 HP again, your current DeathCon increases by 1*, and you are Dying.
If you allow Massive Damage, it adds +2 to your DeathCon and takes you to Dying if the save is failed.
* : A critical increases your current DeathCon by (the multiplier of the critical) or (+2).Miscellaneous
Fast Healing or Regeneration : restores the indicated HP each round, but does not change DeathCon.
Diehard : you always auto-Stabilize, and at DeathCon2 or 3 you remain conscious but Staggered; you can take CON/5 (rounded down) Standard or “strenuous” actions before your DeathCon increases by 1.
Orc Ferocity : once/day, you do not have to roll a Death Saving Throw on your first round in DeathCon.
Coup de Grace : treat as normal, except that if you succeed on the saving throw you still increase DeathCon by +2 for the auto-critical.
When a raging Barbarian leaves DeathCon1, they go to DeathCon3. The Raging Vitality feat negates this.====================================================================
If a PC in DeathCon1 is left alone, they have a 75% chance of dying in typically 3-9 rounds (average of 6), and a 25% chance of Stabilizing on their own in an average of 4 rounds (evenly distributed across DeathCon 1,2,3). A PC in DeathCon1 can act 2 rounds on average before losing consciousness.
Once most creatures hit DeathCon2, you can walk away from them for a while if you need to, they're not getting up again on their own (unless their side has a Cleric). But you can't walk away from creatures with Diehard, Fast Healing, or Regeneration – you have to keep hitting them until they’re dead.
It’s important that there be no magic that reduces DeathCon levels, otherwise every party will have a caster/potion/wand/whatever that can, and it ceases to be important. Same for Feats – nothing can reduce it.
To emulate PF completely, reset DeathCon to 0 upon getting any healing (because PF has no "memory" of how many times you enter the Dying condition each day), and go unconscious at DeathCon1 which happens when HP go negative. Then treat 0 HP as per PF's rules.
If you want to think of DeathCon levels as “injuries”, then apply penalties for running around in DeathCon (HP > 0), and maybe only heal one DeathCon level per full night's sleep.
Example : on the first battle of the day, Franco the fighter eventually takes at hit that would put him at -25 HP, so he enters DeathCon1 and 0 HP. When his next turn comes, Franco decides to continue fighting and rolls his attacks. But the DM has decided that any PC in DeathCon1 (and with HP=0) is at -2 to all rolls and AC, so he includes those penalties. At the end of his turn, Franco rolls a d20 for his Death Saving Throw and gets a 12, so he stays in DeathCon1. A friend of Franco’s takes his turn to run over to Franco and makes a Heal check to Stabilize him, which succeeds. Now if Franco takes no more hits, he would stay at DeathCon1 indefinitely without making any more Death Saving Throws. But during the next round, he takes 2 more hits, ignoring the actual damage done and instead progressing to DeathCon2 (and collapses, unconscious) and then DeathCon3. Just BTW, if one of those two hits had been a critical, he’d be dead at this point. But now the party’s Cleric casts a powerful Channel Energy for 30 HP, restoring Franco to 30 HP and bringing him back to consciousness. He and his party manage to kill the rest of the monsters before he would go negative again, so he remains at DeathCon3 for the rest of the day, until he can sleep 8 hours.
I haven't read all of it, but right off the bat I would change his "unmodified d20 Death Saving Throw" to a Fort save, DC 10+HD. That sets the DC for 20th level characters at DC 30, which is tough (75% chance of failure) for low Fort classes and easy (25% chance of failure) for high Fort classes, which makes way more sense to me than his "Everybody has exactly the same chance of dying no matter your stats."
I did a scene cut. Just so you don't get confused. :)
Height, weight, and hair color and length, style, etc., please. :)