We all had Maker's Jump 2/day to get past the geyser...
True, and we've conserved that resource in case we need it later. (Tough knowing of course what resources we'll need today and what we won't.)
A wise man* once said...
"Why use a sledge-hammer to hammer in a nail when a regular hammer will do."
(and with less collateral damage to boot!)
* not sure if any wise man actually said this or not. Could have just came from the deep/dark/strange recesses of my own head.
^_^
Also, you know the Veil has been warded against teleportation. You don't know what will happen to you if you teleport inside the Veil.
...and an fyi: I will be making a post soon. I'm currently torn between trying to sweeten the intro and use diplomacy, or keep true to Cho's message (which would be more of an intimidate).
*bites his nails contemplating the options*
Haha, I can't wait to see how you handle it, Vega. :D
Will post tomorrow. Very busy last couple of days.
Glitterdust, good call!
OK, I played Gror straight as I don't think he'd have known how over his head he is, especially after such a heady, one-sided battle against the giants.
That said, Gror'll only hit the dragon on a 20. The dragon will hit him on anything other than a 1!
Questions for Jelani, from what we can see, is fleeing past this beast an option? e.g. does the path ahead of us look like something a dragon could traverse?
If that's a no, do we think we could retreat back a bit to buff and strategize, without it being able to follow?
To the group, two other parties (seem to have) made it past this dragon. presumably it's allied with one of those two, but how did the other party get by? Could we do the same?
Assuming we continue with head-on combat here, does anyone have a means to make it easier to hit -- even for just a round? If they do, Gror can hit it with a Litany of Righteousness, which allow any of us with a Good aura (all but Cho, I believe) to deal double damage for one round. It could be quite decisive...if we can arrange for a > 5% chance to hit for the round.
For future rooms: Maybe Sapphira (since she has true seeing) scouts ahead invisibly?
Options I've been thinking of:
1) Kill it with Fire
2) Kill it with Plane Shift and Fire
3) Kill it with Baleful Polymorph
Baleful Polymorph is a total outlier since it's goign to pass the save on a 2. SR 26 is pretty wretched too, since that means a failure on a roll of 13 or lower.
Touch attacks are our best bet, but Cho doesn't have many good touch attack spells and can't hit this thing on anything but a 20. Looking at it's AoO attack bonus we're going to probably drop 1 PC a round if we come at this conventionally.
Alternately, I am entertaining the possibility that the dragon is an illusion but am not sure how to arrange a test of its phantasmal validity.
Everytime we hit it, or it hits us is an interaction that would allow a save vs the illusion.
Ahh, good point. So, this-- is likely quite real then. Hoogh.
Any reason to believe a Wall of Stone would slow it down, if we fled further up the stairs and cast it behind us?
Not long enough to be meaningful. I'm curious what would happen if we tried to teleport out and regroup, because this thing is going to absolutely massacre us without a solid plan. After how soundly we hosed the giants I don't think any of us were prepared for something this potent, we got overconfident.
Having looked at everyone's stats, Vega and Dori have the best chance of tanking it; Dori with her concealment and Vega with his AC being slightly better than Gror's. The problem is none of us can hit it except on a 20.
Ophelia's wall of force would be handy, but I don't think it's prepared. Cloudkill could potentially be helpful too, but of limited nature. Hrm.
It's right about now I wish that summoner/gunslinger got in, it would totally turn the tables on this battle.
I actually did prepare Wall of Force today. And it's in a corner...
If it comes down to ground level, I can target it's touch AC once per round via Dim Mak (Stunning Fist attack targeting touch AC). So that's essentially an auto-hit for me. Only issues I have with that is it uses up 1 ki point and 1 stunning fist attempt each time. With it's fort save, it needs to roll a 1 to become stunned.
It's far too soon to be calling this fight, but in retrospect I can say this is one reason I wanted to press on right away, so that we'd still have all our buffs from before. Oh well, too late now.
*cracks knuckles and looks forward to facing a dragon*
Also, if we can position ourselves so that it has to attack one of us (like, Vega, for example), then the rest of us can prepare/buff without hindrance. One casting of Barkskin on me will put me back to where it needs a natural 20 to hit me. (The Protection from Evil I just gave myself brings me to 56, barkskin would bring me up to 61). Or Cat's Grace (+4 dex = +2 AC) combined with me fighting defensively (another +3 to AC) would mean it needs a natural 20 to hit me.
While I'll also need a natural 20 to hit it, I get more attacks per round than it does (provided we don't move around a lot). This also means it'll be focused on me and give the rest of you time to do other things, like buff, cast offensive spells, sneak past, etc.
The reason Vega moved in so far was to deal with two potential reactions. 1: Breath Weapon or spell used to engulf us all, moving in means it can't hit us all, and hopefully it blasts just me and leaves the rest of you safe. 2: it doesn't want us inside, so by moving in I'm hoping to draw it's ire and have it focus on me, letting the rest of you prepare accordingly and/or flank it if it engages Vega physically.
Problem with dragons having blindsense and darkvision.
Fetchling Shadow Blending: "Attacks against a fetchling in dim light have a 50% miss chance instead of the normal 20% miss chance. This ability does not grant total concealment; it just increases the miss chance."
Shadow Form says "The eidolon's body becomes shadowy and more indistinct."
And Shadow Blend says "In any condition of illumination other than bright light, the eidolon disappears into the shadows..."
So the Fetchling abilities all seem to be based on dim-light or darker to get the concealment.
And ignoring concealment says "An area of dim lighting or darkness doesn't provide any concealment against an opponent with darkvision."
So which takes priority? darkvision (Ex) or Shadow Blend/Form (Su)?
And the blindsense will find us all easily enough.
Enemies like this are why I warned you guys earlier that Gror was going to be a glass cannon. I actually toned my template up for the giants and left it down for everyone else.
There are the stairs at the north end of the room, and the stairs you came up. No other visible exits.
You guys might be able to doggy pile grapple it. Pick whoever has the best natural attacks and everyone else (including potential summons) aid their grapple. Get it pinned and then shred.
Anyway, I don't know how much more I could have warned you that this place was no joke. Good luck! Retreat is always an option, but as far as you can see there's nothing physically preventing the dragon from following you.
Before I post my long strategy post, I have a few questions to ask.
1) How would Sapphira react to Ophelia summoning demons and evil creatures?
2) How would everyone else react to Ophelia summoning demons and evil creatures?
3) How will Ophelia's alignment react to her "technically" committing evil deeds (to slay an evil creature in order to secure and destroy an evil artifact that would leave hundreds of innocents dead in the wrong hands)?
Long story short, the demons and devils have a ton of useful abilities that would make a potentially big difference.
Also, we have Ophelia's Wall of Lizard Flesh to use as a distraction if all else fails.
Brainstorming how Gror could get into the fight (and crunching numbers as I ride the bus home from work).
If Gror retreated and had time to buff, he could cast:
* Greater Magic Fang +1 enhancement
* Divine Favor +3 luck
* Reduce Person +0 size, +1 DEX
Activate his Weapon Master domain ability to get Weapon Focus (claw),
And stopped power attacking (yes, that really hurts) he could get to
+31 to hit (9 BAB +12 str +1 haste +4 sacred +3 luck +1 enhance +1 feat) and so hit on a 16 (i.e. 25% of the time)
A morale bonus from another source would help as well (...and if I were really trying to maximize I could cast Greater Magic Fang 4x, once / claw, to get a +3 enhancement bonus instead of +1.)
His damage would drop to 1d4 (smaller claws) +11 STR +1 enhancement +3 luck +2d6 holy = 1d4+2d6+15 (+4d6 on two of those attacks, if he activates Bane)
This would allow me 10 rounds of averaging 39.35 damage (before Divine Favor wore off). More, again, with additional buffs, e.g. Inspire Courage or Heroism.
For defense, he could cast Stoneskin for DR 10 and could cast Greater Evo Surge to evolve Fast Healing 2...but he'd still be being hit on every strike from the dragon, so he'd likely need combat healing pretty quickly.
By the way, I'd love a ruling as to what triggers the end of an Inquisitor's Judgement.
Once activated, this ability lasts until the combat ends, at which point all of the bonuses immediately end. The inquisitor must participate in the combat to gain these bonuses. If she is frightened, panicked, paralyzed, stunned, unconscious, or otherwise prevented from participating in the combat, the ability does not end, but the bonuses do not resume until she can participate in the combat again.
Would strategically stepping out of reach to buff end it?
Just a heads up, Gror. Greater Magic Fang lasts for an hour per caster level. You should already have it on you.
Ophelia, Gror wouldn't bat an eye at using devils or demons to defeat evil (though you probably weren't concerned about him.)
Oh, and I loves me some Dinosaurs (See my submission for Crusty's Road to Damnation campaign, complete with spinosaurus companion)
EDIT: Good catch on Greater Magic Fang! I didn't notice that the duration is (subtantially!) longer than the vanilla version.
Didn't we already touch on summoning evil things?
Yup, found it.
Given that any evil act causes one to lose their Eidolon and ignites the wrath of Josiah, and that casting a spell with the Evil descriptor (of which summoning spells that summon evil aligned creatures are) counts as an evil act by the rules, I'd highly recommend against it.
Fluff wise it may be that summoning an evil aligned creature is not just pitting evil against evil, but also bends the fabric of reality itself ever so slightly, too miniscule for a mortal to detect, and taking too long for most mortals to live to see its influence, but the beginnings of a ripple nonetheless. That one summon causes an imperceptible influence in the world, where bad things become ever so slightly more likely to happen simply from the presence of the essence of the creature summoned. Perhaps it even deteriorates the bonds of the universe and the boundaries of the Prime Material Plane (much like sugar does to tooth enamel), eventually making it easier for evil outsiders to enter the Prime worlds on their own, without needing to be summoned by us.
Theoretical fluff aside, the rules call casting spells with the Evil descriptor an evil action, which in this game have dire consequences.
Before I post my long strategy post, I have a few questions to ask.
1) How would Sapphira react to Ophelia summoning demons and evil creatures?
2) How would everyone else react to Ophelia summoning demons and evil creatures?
3) How will Ophelia's alignment react to her "technically" committing evil deeds (to slay an evil creature in order to secure and destroy an evil artifact that would leave hundreds of innocents dead in the wrong hands)?
Long story short, the demons and devils have a ton of useful abilities that would make a potentially big difference.
1) Ophelia doesn't know, OOC, she don' give a shit.
2) Don't know, but guessing same as above. With the possible exception of Vega?
3) It wouldn't affect your alignment at all. Sometimes good people need to do "bad" things to make sure good wins. Alignment is bs anyway in my opinion.
Second point, Glitterdust does not remove her invisibility, it simply shows her location. So she still has total concealment at this point from people who can't see invis.
summon monster for a tylosaurus will fail since there doesn't seem to be a natural environment here for it.
Third point, Dori's Shadow Blend and Shadow form evolutions work independent of whether or not the creature attacking has darkvision. So, because this room is dark, you have total concealment from the dragon.
Blindsense lets a creature notice things it cannot see, but without the precision of blindsight. The creature with blindsense usually does not need to make Perception checks to notice and locate creatures within range of its blindsense ability, provided that it has line of effect to that creature. Any opponent that cannot be seen has total concealment (50% miss chance) against a creature with blindsense, and the blindsensing creature still has the normal miss chance when attacking foes that have concealment. Visibility still affects the movement of a creature with blindsense. A creature with blindsense is still denied its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class against attacks from creatures it cannot see.
Blindsense shouldn't be an issue either. Don't forget to halve your damage though Dori, that's the price for having near constant total concealment.
summon monster for a tylosaurus will fail since there doesn't seem to be a natural environment here for it.
Not true. Summon monster calls the creature from another plane. It'll be a celestial dinosaur from Heaven or Nirvana or whatever.
Didn't we already touch on summoning evil things?
Yup, found it.
Given that any evil act causes one to lose their Eidolon and ignites the wrath of Josiah, and that casting a spell with the Evil descriptor (of which summoning spells that summon evil aligned creatures are) counts as an evil act by the rules, I'd highly recommend against it.
Fluff wise it may be that summoning an evil aligned creature is not just pitting evil against evil, but also bends the fabric of reality itself ever so slightly, too miniscule for a mortal to detect, and taking too long for most mortals to live to see its influence, but the beginnings of a ripple nonetheless. That one summon causes an imperceptible influence in the world, where bad things become ever so slightly more likely to happen simply from the presence of the essence of the creature summoned. Perhaps it even deteriorates the bonds of the universe and the boundaries of the Prime Material Plane (much like sugar does to tooth enamel), eventually making it easier for evil outsiders to enter the Prime worlds on their own, without needing to be summoned by us.
Theoretical fluff aside, the rules call casting spells with the Evil descriptor an evil action, which in this game have dire consequences.
I also said there...
However, you get the feeling that Josiah is more worried about your intent, and the harming of innocents. Based on interactions in the past with LG outsiders, Ophelia thinks it highly unlikely that he would take offense at using a demon to fight the giants.
Ophelia is neither a good aligned cleric nor a paladin.
Brainstorming how Gror could get into the fight (and crunching numbers as I ride the bus home from work).
If Gror retreated and had time to buff, he could cast:
* Greater Magic Fang +1 enhancement
* Divine Favor +3 luck
* Reduce Person +0 size, +1 DEX
Activate his Weapon Master domain ability to get Weapon Focus (claw),
And stopped power attacking (yes, that really hurts) he could get to
+31 to hit (9 BAB +12 str +1 haste +4 sacred +3 luck +1 enhance +1 feat) and so hit on a 16 (i.e. 25% of the time)A morale bonus from another source would help as well (...and if I were really trying to maximize I could cast Greater Magic Fang 4x, once / claw, to get a +3 enhancement bonus instead of +1.)
His damage would drop to 1d4 (smaller claws) +11 STR +1 enhancement +3 luck +2d6 holy = 1d4+2d6+15 (+4d6 on two of those attacks, if he activates Bane)
This would allow me 10 rounds of averaging 39.35 damage (before Divine Favor wore off). More, again, with additional buffs, e.g. Inspire Courage or Heroism.
For defense, he could cast Stoneskin for DR 10 and could cast Greater Evo Surge to evolve Fast Healing 2...but he'd still be being hit on every strike from the dragon, so he'd likely need combat healing pretty quickly.
By the way, I'd love a ruling as to what triggers the end of an Inquisitor's Judgement.
Once activated, this ability lasts until the combat ends, at which point all of the bonuses immediately end. The inquisitor must participate in the combat to gain these bonuses. If she is frightened, panicked, paralyzed, stunned, unconscious, or otherwise prevented from participating in the combat, the ability does not end, but the bonuses do not resume until she can participate in the combat again.Would strategically stepping out of reach to buff end it?
In this case I'd say leaving the chamber after activating judgement would be "leaving the combat". If you're not in danger, you're not in combat.
I was just considering revising the AC portion of my template, but I don't think I will. This is the highest AC monster in the entire adventure, so it shouldn't be a constant issue. Especially since you will level up at least once, maybe more. This fight will just take some good teamwork/strategy and some luck (and maybe some hero points).
@Jelani: What happens if I use Evolution Surge to give my small eidolon the large evolution? Also, do multiple Evolution Surges stack? Reading over the text, it looks like I could do it if I was to take multiple different evolutions.
@Party: How crazy do you all want me to go? I am thinking of taking the kiddie gloves off these next couple of rounds, but if I use my one charge of "cast any spell from your spellbooks even if you never prepared it" that my arcane bond ability gives me and burn the remainder of my summons, then we might have to rest.
Ophelia: I think we may well need to burn a ton here. I don't see another way around it. Of course if one or two of us burn a ton, they might be able to be carried through one more encounter before resting by the rest of the party. We'll see.
As far as evo surge, you can cast it several times for several different evos. You could cast it for large. What you couldn't do is cast it to add onto an existing evo (e.g. large >> huge).
Jelani: Oy! I haven't played Glitterdust v. Invis that way, didn't realize it'd still provide concealment. Moot point now at any rate.
Okay, apparently I'm wrong about glitterdust. Though no where in the spell does it make that clear, apparently it's been clarified online that it removes all effects of invisibility. Apologies. As you said though, moot point in this case.
Jelani, how much ooc strategizing are you OK with here in this thread?
As a player in a challenging situation, I'm happy to take some advantage (as we've been already) by more ooc tabletalk...but I wanted to check with you before doing much more. If you prefer strategy discussion during the battle to be more realistic shouted conversation in front of the dragon, I'll go that route instead.
Discuss away. If we were around a table you would be planning OOC I'm sure.
Cool. In that case:
I think Gror has a shot at damaging this thing, but in order to do so he needs to suit up way more than he has. Minimum, he'll need to cast Stoneskin (so he is destroyed more slowly) and Divine Favor (so he hits more frequently) on himself[1]. That's two rounds without attacking.
It'd be awesome to get a morale bonus from someone, maybe Ophelia summoning a bard again?
Ophelia, are you planning on sending in a summoned melee attacker? If so, I'll hold off and let it absorb the next AoO...otherwise Gror can take it.
The only other bonus I can think I might get is +2 from flanking, and Gror is trying to position himself in the corner 30' N / 10' W of his current position so that when he *does* charge back in, he could potentially flank with someone who approaches the dragon from along the S wall. Can one of The Chosen (or one of our summons) attack from there.
Any add'l bonuses you can think of that Gror may be missing, or that someone in the party could buff him with? (There's gotta be more I'm not thinking of.)
One buff that he can and should offer to one or more folks who'll enter melee: He can cast Lend Judgement to give a +4 sacred bonus to either To Hit or AC. If someone or ones wants that, I'll cast it on'm.
Finally, I'm still immune to Heat and Cold, thanks to the greater evo surge I cast on the stairs, but hopefully I can get it to breath steam on me again since that shouldn't be obvious yet.
[1] I realized that Reduce Person doesn't help since the penalty to STR and Size bonus cancel each other out. Duh.
Sapphira might have the best chance to hit if you lend her the judgement. +35 for two attacks, that's a 45% to hit. Also, be careful who tries to tank this one. She's going to hit like a brick. Probably Poppy and Vega have the best chance of occupying her because there's a decent chance of her missing them.
I am going to make my moves. Ophelia is going to spend her daily use of "Look at me! I am a sorcerer for this one spell!" (arcane bond class ability's power to cast any spell from your books without having it prepared once per day) to call in Lily the Azata Bard. Lucero is going to cast Divine Favor on Sapphira. The Archon Spam will not be possible given the breath weapon just killing those guys as quickly as I call them in.
I never said it, but looking up Divine Favor, I saw that it was a personal ("You") spell. Hence why LC did something different.
Doesn't this mean summon monster won't work? "Creatures cannot be summoned into an environment that cannot support them. "
Doesn't this mean summon monster won't work? "Creatures cannot be summoned into an environment that cannot support them. "
I take that to mean like summoning a shark onto land or an eagle under water. The dinosaur would be able to survive the cold for the duration of the spell so it's fine.
it's an ocean dinosaur. (has flippers instead of feet, type is aquatic)
Ah, well in that case, you are correct. I didn't actually look at its stats (~_~)*
Kinda wish I had the Antagonize feat so as to force it to attack me.
If we're not going to trap it in the corner, we should lure it to the ground. Even if we don't surround it to flank it, it will allow all of us the ability to threaten it (and thus allowing all of us to potentially give Aid Another actions to Gror or Sapphira or whoever is attacking it physically).
Seriously, Aid Another stacks with itself so we can give lots of bonuses. Though it is all towards the next attack, so the first attack in a full round of attacks will have a potentially huge bonus doing this. (only need to his AC 10 to give a stackable +2 aid another bonus, but you have to threaten the enemy as well).
It being above us (and out of half of our party's reach) is a huge advantage to it (much like us flying over the giants previously). If we can get it to the ground, we regain some control. Perhaps then a wall of stone or force over it's head so it can't fly or jump above us (or, waste a standard action to break through it... doing that is one less round of it attacking us).
Also, once per round I can give one person a reroll on either an attack roll or a saving through. If we can get one of our attack bonuses high enough to have a reliable chance to hit and that person rolls a natural 1, I can negate the fumble and let you roll again.
However, Poppy did just fail a save. Would you like my once-per round reroll for last rounds failed save? It does cost me some Ki every time though, so I want to reserve it for when it is really needed. For this one I'll leave it up to you (though if you take it and save, you'll evade and take no damage, making your last post...awkward. Sorry I didn't see it and post this sooner).
I am playing with the expectation to go the long haul and not be able to rest whenever we want. Seriously, I've experienced way too many TPKs all due to the party going nova and trying to dominate every fight rather than pacing themselves and using only what they need to get by so they have something left for the unexpected.
Also, if we can get it on the ground, we can potentially get another +1 to our attacks if we jump or fly above it, due to being on higher ground (something I completely forgot about in the last fight).
Assuming it doesn't have more HD or wisdom than your average ancient white, I successfully intimidate on a 1, even taking into consideration the -4 for the size difference. I plan on doing just that this round. That's another -2 to its attack rolls (better for all of us to avoid getting hit, but especially for Vega, as it means I wont need Barkskin to get to there it needs a natural 20 to hit me... more reason to lure it to the ground and to us/me rather than to fly up to it and fight it on its terms), and -2 to its saves! Every penalty to its saves means our powerful save-or-die spells and abilities are more likely to work.
Most of all, I think we'll be better served in this combat to work as a team and help each other out as opposed to each of us trying to one-up it on our own, a bunch of guys soloing the big bad at the same time. I think we need to work together (Aid another actions, spending actions to cast buff spells, find a way to bring it (or lure it) down to the ground so we can all have a chance, etc) to hinder it and/or make the one of us most likely to hurt it more capable of doing so.
"Also, if we can get it on the ground, we can potentially get another +1 to our attacks if we jump or fly above it, due to being on higher ground (something I completely forgot about in the last fight)."
Something I also always forget, thanks! ;)
It'll take time for a group to gel. The first two fights were way too easy to actually require any strategy or teamwork. It'll grow over time.