...and so my role of the guy who keeps on reminding the GM of rules and making suggestions that make our enemies deadlier - to the chagrin of everyone else - continues.
o_o;;
__________
I'll make my IC post once I get home from work in a few hours.
^_^
That... is now the 3rd d20 in a row I've rolled on these boards (the other two from another game) that resulted in a 12.
*is haunted by numbers*
XD
So I just made Cho incorporeal for 12 rounds. In that time I'm going to try full-attacking the g+~#$~ned thing into little bits. He'll only do half damage, but I can stack on power attack (or maybe another buff if I really need to) since this thing's touch AC is abysmal. He'll only be doing half damage, but it'll add up nickel and diming the dragon. It's the most useful thing I think Cho can do. I also need to recalculate his AC for being incorporeal, I now realize!
Cho, brilliant! Do you have something that makes your melee attacks bypass DR/Magic? If not, lets make sure we cast Magic Fang on you before you swing in.
Do incorporeal attackers flank? I just scanned the rules and found nothing to make me think they *can't*, but figured it's good to confirm.
Assuming they do, can you attack from the E/SE? When Gror charges back in he'll be attacking from the N/NW and I'm hoping to get him a flanking bonus to hit. (Given the sizes of the parties involved, I assume that'll give Sapphira a flank from below as well.
Vega, I like your idea of forcing it to the ground too -- but I'm not sure how we do it. Can you see a way? If not, do you have a way to reach it, or could you use one?
I've got greater magic fang on all claws and bite and a holy amulet of mighty fists. It won't help the tendril attacks, but those don't hit all that hard anyway.
Point #2: Yeah Cho still threatens as an incorporeal creature so he can flank.
We could try using the reposition or drag combat maneuver to pull it to the ground, but I dunno if anyone can beat its CMD.
We don't necessarily have to physically force it to the ground. Luring it down would be more likely. Don't fly up to engage it, let it come to you instead. It can't breath weapon every round. It doesn't want us to proceed into "it's" veil, so move further in, forcing it to give chase. Cat and mouse tactics. Get it mad enough to want to claw and bite us to death. Pretend you're sick of Vega and back away, leaving him in as bait, and by being immune to heat and cold means it's breath weapon does nothing, so it'll eventually have to come down to the ground to deal with the verbal interloper whose words started it's rage via physical attacks, and I'll bring it closer to the stairs so you can all come back and flank it... that sort of thing? (just some random ideas)
DM: How high is the ceiling over the stairs to the north/further in?
It's all forty feet.
PSH!
XD
I... hate myself for knowing as much of the rules as I do.
I fear that I may be lynched for this... but there are two things that I know of that seems to have been forgotten... and they are both things that will make things harder for us (players):
1) Doesn't the dragon have a Fear aura?
2) One can only have one single Polymorph spell or effect active at a time. Cho will have to give up Plant Shape to go Dust Form. Fortunately, your Eidolon form is not a polymorph effect, so you keep all of that and can Evolution Surge to get Reach or Flight other special attacks or what-have-you still.
*feels like a terrible person making things harder for everyone else*
Dragon fear is only when they charge, do natural attacks, iirc. That may be an old 3.5 nugget still rolling around in my head, though.
And huh it is polymorph, isn't it? I think I was presuming it was like ethereal jaunt which is just transmutation. Well, bugger. Slightly weaker now in the hitting department.
Vega, that dragon would be lost without you. ;0)
Good catch. I haven't played with such high level characters before -- and have only recently moved from 3.5 and Iron Heroes to Pathfinder -- so getting to learn from y'all is one of the many things I'm enjoying in this campaign.
I didn't completely forget her frightful presence, just the first round. She does have to choose to activate it along with an attack, I was planning on doing it this round ;)
Is Frightful Presence a Mind Affecting Effect? If so, I think Gror gets a second save. (I also get +5 vs. SLAs, but I assume this *isn't* one of those)
The Spellbreaker rolls twice and takes the best result when making a Will saving throw against a mind-affecting effect.
EDIT:
* Did Vega's intimidate succeed?* Does anyone have a spell that removed Shaken?
This special quality makes a creature’s very presence unsettling to foes. Activating this ability is a free action that is usually part of an attack or charge. Opponents within range who witness the action may become frightened or shaken. The range is usually 30 feet, and the duration is usually 5d6 rounds. This ability affects only opponents with fewer Hit Dice than the creature has. An opponent can resist the effects with a successful Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 the frightful creature’s racial HD + the frightful creature’s Cha modifier; the exact DC is given in the creature’s descriptive text). An opponent that succeeds on the saving throw is immune to that same creature’s frightful presence for 24 hours. On a failed save, the opponent is shaken, or panicked if it has 4 Hit Dice or fewer. Frightful presence is a mind-affecting fear effect.
Format: frightful presence (60 ft., DC 21); Location: Aura.
Go ahead and reroll your save. DC is 33 radius much bigger than 30'. Vega's intimidate succeeded, thus the sentence about it being scared and it having the shaken condition. Poppy has remove fear.
Yeah Cho is Dimension Doored into the room.
It's... staying on the ceiling isn't it?
*grumbles under his breath*
At least it is shaken (for the time being). :D
It's only a matter of time now until it dies, it has 6 bleed every round. Until it spends time using a Heal check (which will provoke from us) or uses cure magic. If we can keep its attention it'll probably have to kill us or risk not having time to stanch its own bleeding.
Ooohh! And don't forget about Inspire Courage! Lily does have it up! +2 moral to saves vs fear and +2 competence to hit and damage!
Note to self: do a better job of remembering and writing down all buffs as they happen.
EDIT: and I should ask just to make sure... a monk's fast movement... it states it is to his land speed. Obviously it does not apply to fly speeds or swim speeds granted by evolutions... but what about Climb speeds? I originally assumed not, but figure I should make sure just in case. (really, it will determine if I can move and attack (stunning first vs touch AC) now, move and attack (vs normal AC) by spending some ki, or move and intimidate to demoralize again, increasing the Shaken duration)
Oh, man. There's inspire courage going? Holy buffs, batman. That'll up Cho's damage. I'll tally that in the gameplay thread.
I thought dimension door didn't work here?
Uhggghhh. Well-- we're about to find out what happens when someone tries. It'll either just make a fart sound or Cho will be hurled into the raped by ghosts dimension. :x
Ooohh! And don't forget about Inspire Courage! Lily does have it up! +2 moral to saves vs fear and +2 competence to hit and damage!
Note to self: do a better job of remembering and writing down all buffs as they happen.
EDIT: and I should ask just to make sure... a monk's fast movement... it states it is to his land speed. Obviously it does not apply to fly speeds or swim speeds granted by evolutions... but what about Climb speeds? I originally assumed not, but figure I should make sure just in case. (really, it will determine if I can move and attack (stunning first vs touch AC) now, move and attack (vs normal AC) by spending some ki, or move and intimidate to demoralize again, increasing the Shaken duration)
If you are using the climb skill then yeah, because you climb at one quarter your land speed. If you have a climb speed you use 1/4 your land speed or your climb speed, whichever is better.
I never said that dimension door wouldn't work, I said to remember that you'd been warned it's warded against teleportation magic. What those wards are and do specifically is going to be a trial and error game.
I just read Actions and it seems very clear that (while one can sub a second move for a standard action) one can't sub a second swift for a move action. It surprised me enough that I wanted to confirm my reading...and see if anyone feels like conjecturing as to why.
More practically, in the next round (and for the next few rounds, if needed) I can cast Litany of Righteousness as a swift action. (Assuming I beat it's SR) this will enable anyone with a Good aura who damages it to deal double damage for the round. That should be all of the Chosen and our summons, minus Cho. Jelani, I understand that to mean that everyone will get the benefit of this for one of their turns, either the same round I cast it (for those lower in initiative than Gror) or at the beginning of the next round (for those higher in the order than Gror). Does that make sense to you?
Let me know what folks think about me casting this next round. I can also hold off one more round (instead activating my greater bane, which gives two of my swings +2 to hit/+4d6 to damage) if we think we'll be in a better position to maximize the spell the following round.
Also, it should be easy to flank now so be sure to take that bonus to hit.
Finally, should Ophelia cast fly on Vega?
Does Litany of Righteousness work off of alignment, or the actual aura class feature?
If it's a good Aura (class feature), then only Good Clerics, Paladins, and Outsiders with the Good subtype gain the benefits of Litany of Righteousness right off the bat, everyone else will need Imbue with Aura cast on them first.
If it is simply based of the attackers alignment, then never mind. Continue. Though I'd assume (even though it does not apply to us right now) that the attacker would still have to have at least 5 HD for reap the benefits of the Litany if they don't have the Aura class feature or an alignment subtype, as per Detect Evil/Good/Alignment. (that is to say, good aligned 2 HD Commoners would not get their damage doubled, while a level 1 paladin or a good aligned Lv 5 Commoner would).
...
Oh, I've noticed that, and it frustrates me to no end. It's even worse if you happen to be a class that has abilities that "improve" from Standard > Move > Swift as you level up, and you have more than one. (as I've ranted about here. But as it stands, only 1 Swift action per round, no exceptions.
*grumbles*
Vega, thanks for the link to your thread on the subject. Amusing.
As far as Litany of Righteousness, my understanding (based on the rules under Detect Evil that you linked) is that one gets an aura of their alignment at 5HD if they didn't have it yet, and that that would trigger the Litany. (It becomes a very awkward spell for Inquisitors to have on their list otherwise, given that they don't have an Aura class feature.) I asked about this on rpg.stackexchange.com when I was first thinking up Gror and reading the Inquisitor spell list for the first time, and the answer there was to follow the rules under Detect Evil.
Jelani, obviously let us know if you understand this differently.
@Jelani: I think you forgot to take Lily's Inspire Courage into consideration for Sapphira. It would have not only canceled the shaken penalty, but it would have also gotten like another 8 damage (I think) on the dragon.
I forgot the +2 to fear saves for inspire courage for everyone. If that would have put you over 33, ignore the shaken condition.
I did also forget the buff to hit and damage yes. I actually wasn't sure what it was, and didn't feel like looking up the Azata's stats again after writing a long post. But now I know it's +2 rather than some other amount, and I'll remember it. If you want me to remember better you can start including stats for your summoned creatures Ophelia ;)
Only one swift per round, period.
For the people in the party currently, Litany of Righteousness will only work on Sapphira, LC and Lily. The spell is very clear in my opinion,
Calling down a litany of anathema, you make an evil more susceptible to the attacks of good creatures. If the target is evil, it takes double damage from attacks made by creatures with a good aura (from a class feature or as a creature with the good subtype). If the target also has the evil subtype; when it is hit with attacks made by creatures with a good aura, it is also dazzled for 1d4 rounds. If this spell targets a nonevil creature (or one that lacks the evil subtype), it has no effect, and the spell is wasted.
While subject to this spell, the target cannot be the target of another spell that has the word "litany" in the title.
That does make it relatively useless for Inquisitors as a self buff, yes. Unless you are an inquisitor of a race with the good subtype, or get a cleric to cast Imbue with Aura on you first. If they had intended it to work will all good creatures who have more than five hit dice they would have said it that way, and not the very specific way they did.
Re Litany of righteousness, bummer! One possible saving grace: The description for auras specifically calls out "Aligned outsiders" as having auras. Does our outsider subtype save the day?
What are the penalties currently on the dragon? I know that she has a -2 from being shaken, but there is a -6 from one of her other rolls against Sapphira. I would like to know if that is universal to all of the white dragon's rolls.
I was originally going to make the image a Red Dragon and have him burst in saying "Oh yeah!"
So now let's see how this turns the tide. The dragon flopped the will save, so she basically will think that this image is a real great wyrm golden dragon until she dies. No matter what she does, it is totally invincible and will cause her to think that she is suffering real pain. If nothing else, it is now heavily distracted.
Paarthurnax, hah!
What are the penalties currently on the dragon? I know that she has a -2 from being shaken, but there is a -6 from one of her other rolls against Sapphira. I would like to know if that is universal to all of the white dragon's rolls.
Only negative condition she has that you know about is shaken.
Re Litany of righteousness, bummer! One possible saving grace: The description for auras specifically calls out "Aligned outsiders" as having auras. Does our outsider subtype save the day?
No, you count as an outsider or a dwarf, whichever is worse for you.
RE:Permanent Image
Several things.
1)
The spell lasts as long as you concentrate on it. Concentrating to maintain a spell is a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Anything that could break your concentration when casting a spell can also break your concentration while you're maintaining one, causing the spell to end. See concentration.
You can't cast a spell while concentrating on another one. Some spells last for a short time after you cease concentrating.
The minute you stop concentrating the figment freezes.
2)
A figment spell creates a false sensation. Those who perceive the figment perceive the same thing, not their own slightly different versions of the figment. It is not a personalized mental impression. Figments cannot make something seem to be something else. A figment that includes audible effects cannot duplicate intelligible speech unless the spell description specifically says it can. If intelligible speech is possible, it must be in a language you can speak. If you try to duplicate a language you cannot speak, the figment produces gibberish. Likewise, you cannot make a visual copy of something unless you know what it looks like (or copy another sense exactly unless you have experienced it).
Because figments and glamers are unreal, they cannot produce real effects the way that other types of illusions can. Figments and glamers cannot cause damage to objects or creatures, support weight, provide nutrition, or provide protection from the elements. Consequently, these spells are useful for confounding foes, but useless for attacking them directly.
A figment's AC is equal to 10 + its size modifier.
Even if she believes it's real, it can't actually hurt her.
3)
This spell functions like silent image, except that the figment includes visual, auditory, olfactory, and thermal elements, and the spell is permanent. By concentrating, you can move the image within the limits of the range, but it is static while you are not concentrating.
This spell creates the visual illusion of an object, creature, or force, as visualized by you. The illusion does not create sound, smell, texture, or temperature. You can move the image within the limits of the size of the effect.
So, you might be able to convince her she's being burned, but certainly not clawed. The X Image line of spells have no texture, no real substance unless otherwise stated in the spell.
4)
Her lowest possible spellcraft roll is a 28, meaning she auto identifies the fact that you were casting Permanent Image. That's incontrovertible proof that whatever she sees happen next is a figment, thus she doesn't even need to save.
Creatures encountering an illusion usually do not receive saving throws to recognize it as illusory until they study it carefully or interact with it in some fashion.
A successful saving throw against an illusion reveals it to be false, but a figment or phantasm remains as a translucent outline.
A failed saving throw indicates that a character fails to notice something is amiss. A character faced with proof that an illusion isn't real needs no saving throw. If any viewer successfully disbelieves an illusion and communicates this fact to others, each such viewer gains a saving throw with a +4 bonus.
On top of that, she would quickly realize it's not a real gold dragon by Ophelia getting minor details wrong, like it not having a frightful presence.
While I (frustratingly) can't seem to find any official clarification on this, I've always run it/thought that illusions provide a will save every time they are interacted with. It typically takes an action to do so, or being "attacked" by the illusion, but it's completely unbalanced to run it as a one save type of deal. So assume that was the case, she failed her save once and now believed this dragon was real forever no takebacksies. Then what? What happens when she attacks it? Is she going to go unconscious from its not-damage?
5)
Your allies also need to roll to disbelieve.
It's was a good idea, I just have to crush it :(
Huh. So the entire thing is pointless? Can I redo Opal's action then?
I guess? Only because you rolled well enough on your knowledge (arcana) to know that a dragon of her age would be able to tell what spell you were casting, so Ophelia has a solid in character reason to not have done that.
Thanks. I will be sure to ask next time before doing something that big.
Yeah, I feel like a dick, but I really do appreciate the creativity and effort that went into the post. Sorry the rules weren't there this time :/
Yes, I was and still am hugely impressed with a very creative idea for how to thwart this dragon -- and with the quality of your post. Let's try to follow in your footsteps.
And Jelani, thanks for keeping us honest, even when (in this case and in the case of Litany of Righteousness) it's a downer.
In terms of what Ophelia's (next) best move is, does it make sense to cast Fly on Vega so he can get up close and personal with the dragon?
Too bad about the illusion. Though it is a fine idea against enemies without Spellcraft (I'm assuming most Giants would be in this category). I could have sword there was a feat to increase the DC to identify spells via Spellcraft, but apparently Spell Bluff is only an increase with regards to counterspelling. Must be thinking of the Beguiler class from 3.x.
I'm rather busy at the moment, but I do plan on posting later tonight once things calm down a bit (hopefully within the next 12 hours). Unless you do plan on giving Vega a fly spell, then I'll wait. If not, no worries. I'd never presume someone elses actions (or at least, I try not to), and I've already accepted the fact that Vega will not be able to do much awesomeness right away. Gotta get into the right position (including the right spell/buffs up) first, and that takes time.
I didn't prepare Fly today. I should make a note of doing that in the future. As for this turn, I will probably just have her retreat. In her current form, Ophelia has no real combat ability. I literally listed her attacks as N/A. Her eidolon is basically a protective suit of armor.
My lord am I a silly fop! Now that I actually sat down and looked at the math more carefully, I believe I totally can get within range to attack it once with only one move action.
If in one move action I can either move 60' on land or 20' up a wall (climbing speed), then every foot of land movement is equal to 0.33~' of climbing movement (3:1 ratio). So if it takes me 15' of land movement to get beside the wall, I will have 15' of climb movement left to use to go up. And because I have an attack with a reach of 10', I can hit the blasted thing!
I made a quick little diagram to represent the movement visually.
Now here's hoping I hit and that it fails it's save vs mah Dim Mak Stunning Fist! (as far as I can tell, stunned and paralyzed are not the same thing. Immunity to Crits will negate Stunning Fist, but - unless I missed a FAQ or clarification elsewhere - immunity to paralysis will not actually stop Stunning Fist... as an example: the Construct type calls out being immune to both Paralysis and Stunning as separate entities)
*crosses fingers for favorable rolls*
EDIT: wait, no, crap. Stunning Fist has to be delivered through an Unarmed Strike, and my 10' reach bite does not count as that. :/ I will have to target normal AC instead of Touch AC with that and try to Stun it next round (or spend 5 ki to slow time, giving me 3 standard action in one round... *consideres options*)
Here's a question!
Jumping is not an action in and of itself, but is done as part of movement. Because I have a climb speed, can I jump onto the wall? This would give me a starting height on the wall equal to 1/4th my acrobatics check, and - because I have a climb speed - can then continue my movement up using the remainder of my speed (based on the 3:1 ratio calculated above).
EDIT: examples:
1) a character with a 30' speed runs 10', jumps over a 10' pit, and continues another 10' afterwards as one move action.
2) a character with a speed of 30 and a swim speed of 30 runs on land 10', jumps 10' into water, and continues in the water another 10' as one move action.
3) a character with a speed of 30 and a burrow speed of 20 moves 10 on land, then starts to burrow into the ground, going another 13 feet underground, as one move action.
I found one thread that talked about this. It's over a year old and came to no real consensus, though most people seem to allow combining different movement types in a single move action by figuring out the ratio of varying speeds, but there seems to be no official rule for it.
Movement distance sounds right, nice diagram.
I've always run it that you can combine different types of movements as one action. Climb speed doesn't let you auto-climb though.
Climb Speed A creature with a climb speed has a +8 racial bonus on all Climb checks. The creature must make a Climb check to climb any wall or slope with a DC higher than 0, but it can always choose to take 10, even if rushed or threatened while climbing. If a creature with a climb speed chooses an accelerated climb (see above), it moves at double its climb speed (or at its land speed, whichever is slower) and makes a single Climb check at a –5 penalty. Such a creature retains its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) while climbing, and opponents get no special bonus to their attacks against it. It cannot, however, use the run action while climbing.
Looks like you're at a +11 climb (+3 str, +8 climb speed). The walls of the veil are climb DC 40, so it's actually impossible for Vega to climb them. He could however jump up as a move action and then take one attack, then fall back down. If he jumps 20 feet to make a punch he'd take 1d6 falling damage (10 feet negated by acrobatics) and land prone. If he only jumps to 15 feet to use his bite, he'd take nothing and land on his feet.