Hymenopterix's Colonies of the Salt Coast

Game Master Electric Monk

Either way is cool. Lol hymen :)

Sorry, Hy, our posts crossed and I've somehow put the time line slightly back. I promise this is the last thing I'll do with the Stag.

Second point to Hy and all. I propose we use some time available during the first month to finish exploring Hex 38, then possibly hex 39, 44 and 46. What do you all think?

Three combat ready horses ready to go!

Are we going to discuss buildings to be built in OOC or IC?

If a fort or watchtower is built as an addition it is converted to a building with the hex if it becomes a settlement. Watchtower becomes a watchtower building.

The fort converts to a barracks and a stables.

It's pretty cool reading through the two 3pp supplements I have for kingdom building. Also lets not get too attached on the names of buildings and focus on what they'd represent in their district. Just IMO.

I love this kingdom building stuff. :)

Used to do it in 1st-3.5. If we build a castle I will customize it. Actually any of the expensive buildings I will create a layout for. :D

Sorry, Hy, our posts crossed and I've somehow put the time line slightly back. I promise this is the last thing I'll do with the Stag.

Second point to Hy and all. I propose we use some time available during the first month to finish exploring Hex 38, then possibly hex 39, 44 and 46. What do you all think?

No problem, just thought id finish the "campaign phase" so that details are complete. My intention was that you perform any actions you want to carry out this month before moving to phase 2. - All good :)

If I am not mistaken all the gear the former stag lord had was the amulet, the camp bow +1 (+2), dagger and studded leather correct?

@Finnabar: those hexes sound fine to me! Just give me eight days to train the mounts and we will be good!

If I am not mistaken all the gear the former stag lord had was the amulet, the camp bow +1 (+2), dagger and studded leather correct?

@Finnabar: those hexes sound fine to me! Just give me eight days to train the mounts and we will be good!

And a MW longsword and don't forget the helm!

I assume from our posts that we thoroughly examined each item of course... Curious lol.

I am enjoying thismore and more. >:-)

Is it safeto assume our new items won't appear until about a month or two? Since most of us order Mw gear so it will take awhile right?

So jack has his armor and bow. While bein has the helm and sword. Then Xarafine has the Amulet. The only thing we didn't keep is the knife lol. Interesting. XD

I assume from our posts that we thoroughly examined each item of course... Curious lol.

I am enjoying thismore and more. >:-)

Is it safeto assume our new items won't appear until about a month or two? Since most of us order Mw gear so it will take awhile right?

So jack has his armor and bow. While bein has the helm and sword. Then Xarafine has the Amulet. The only thing we didn't keep is the knife lol. Interesting. XD

Just to keep things moving we'll assume that the items you want to purchase are obtainable immediately. I don't want too many things to be waiting on a timeline because I think that'll make everything hard to keep track of.

Roger that :-)

Will update shortly. Ty <3

Here's jack's purchase list for now:

MW Short sword (310)
MW buckler (155)
MW Backpack (50)
Chronicler's kit (40 gp)
10 smoke arrows (100 gp)
20 whistling arrows (2)
2 tanglefoot bags (50 gp each)
2 antiplague (50 gp each)
2 antitoxin (50 gp each)
2 bloodblock (25 gp each)
2 soothe syrup (25 gp each)
Hooded lantern (7)
Oil (4 flasks) (1 sp)
String (1cp)

1063 gp 9 sp 7 copper left

Still need to add my items but will wait tone how the Former Stag Lord responds. I know i reiterated Finnabars questions but i am hoping his lust for revenge on the Traitors + his want for liquor will loosen his tongue. Granted he may not tell the truth but we will see.

Been re reading the thread to make sure there was nothing else i missed. Its a long process starting from the beginning but its fun seeing how far we've come. With the pace picking up some we will get further! :)

It does give insight on some of what i forgot especially. So i make better notes and adding those to the loot sheet as well.

Hopefully the modified sheet is useful. :) if you see a way for me to improve it definitely let me know I'm up for any suggestions as i am trying to make it more useful and less clunky. Thanks!

Sorry, Hy, our posts crossed and I've somehow put the time line slightly back. I promise this is the last thing I'll do with the Stag.

Second point to Hy and all. I propose we use some time available during the first month to finish exploring Hex 38, then possibly hex 39, 44 and 46. What do you all think?

Didn't mean to drag this out either but despite him being mad I was hoping to maybe get a response with the offering of liquor. I was hoping, like Finnabar to glean something from the Stag lord before we shipped him off for his execution. :)

Hymen

Something I did as a Dm was to split moments of time, especially at times like this. It's a balancing act but sometimes it allowed for the party to move forward, makes rolls, claim hexes and in the event a second rp opportunity came about you would hopefully be in a spot to end the one that had been carrying on.

Not telling you what to do , just a suggestion as you seem more open to new ideas and such.

everyone

If you want to end the talk with the Stag lord just say so here and I will drop it completely.

Thanks

Regarding which hexes to explore:

- I believe Hymenopterix said Hex 45 (the Fort hex) can be considered explored, as we would have to to get the colony established, so we do not have to do that one.

- Of hexes we have already visited, I strongly suggest (as Jack suggested in character) we finish 38, 30, and 24 (the hexes marked pink on my map) before moving onto a whole new hex -- for two reasons: 1) in game, we need to get those hexes cleared I would presume so we can eventually build a road to Oleg's. 2) personally, I feel a lot more comfortable mapping the area with having as few hexes only half-explored as possible. And just personally, I would rather finish what we start before going onto a new thing.

- After we finish exploring the passed-through areas, I am totally down with the hexes surrounding the fort (44, 39, and 46)

Sorry to offer a voice of dissent but that's my thinking. If we want to go with the majority, I have no problem per se with, after doing 38 (which we all agree on), 44, 46, and 39 first, I just want to get the other unexplored hexes that are currently on the map done ASAP.

Regarding which hexes to explore:

- Of hexes we have already visited, I strongly suggest (as Jack suggested in character) we finish 38, 30, and 24 (the hexes marked pink on my map) before moving onto a whole new hex -- for two reasons: 1) in game, we need to get those hexes cleared I would presume so we can eventually build a road to Oleg's. 2) personally, I feel a lot more comfortable mapping the area with having as few hexes only half-explored as possible. And just personally, I would rather finish what we start before going onto a new thing.

- After we finish exploring the passed-through areas, I am totally down with the hexes surrounding the fort (44, 39, and 46)

Sorry to offer a voice of dissent but that's my thinking. If we want to go with the majority, I have no problem per se with, after doing 38 (which we all agree on), 44, 46, and 39 first, I just want to get the other unexplored hexes that are currently on the map done ASAP.

This is sound, sorry not to have taken your view into account.

We have around 15 days worth of exploration.
We could then use the following order (and I'm going back on what I said previously):

Hex 38
Hex 30
Hex 24
Then if we still have time, Hex 37 (the Kalds) then Hex 44 and home.
If we don't have time: back home.
Then over the next months: Hex 39, 46, 53 and 52

So long as we get (a) hex(es) adjacent to our town explored I am down with that. Because unless the hex is adjacent to one we claim then we can't claim it. Also you can't build farms without having a farm in an adjacent hex or a River in the hex you are building in.

I don't care on the order but we definitely need to consider what will hold up our kingdom building process as well. My bad as I tried to find hex 45 in game thread and it was blank on the map so I assumed it was unexplored. Hence why I suggest a clump instead of skipping the one in the middle (45). Made more sense for us to Know what was (Near) the colony or (around) it rather than everything miles away.

My only opinion is that we have the hexes we need Explored to adequately build roads and farms straight to Olegs or to maximize our building phase with our kingdom as we can do rather little each turn. AS much as leaving things half-done is annoying, not getting full usage of our kingdom building phases is worse.

Jack So only the spots that are drawn in on the exploration map are explored then? Or is there an indication of what is explored or not? Sorry just confusing for me when I try to figure out where or where not to explore...

Jack So only the spots that are drawn in on the exploration map are explored then? Or is there an indication of what is explored or not? Sorry just confusing for me when I try to figure out where or where not to explore...

Bein, if you go to the following link, you'll find the updated map.

Last Map

The link is also under Jack profile. In this map, the hexes drawn have been explored except the hexes surrounded in pink. We just passed through those without fully exploring them. Jack proposes and I agree to start with finishing them first. Then I propose to go back to town through two unexplored hexes.

@HY, can you change the link to the map on the campaign page to the one above?

Oh lol. Well then. Teaches me for not digging into the profiles. My Bad! :(

Well as long as we take care of one Hex near town then I am fine with whatever we plan on doing moving forward. Like I said we have to have explored Hexs adjacent to each other to be able to take them for the Kingdom. Which we will be doing just that so all good. :)

added the link to my profile as well. :)

Jack do you update this with a different link each time or is this the static link to the map?

As regards mapping out an adjacent square, 38 is one and we all agree that's the place to start (unless Xarafine has other ideas). So that will be taken care of regardless.

Finn, I like the idea of exploring while escorting the Stag, then branching out further.

Bein, I think the link changes every time I upload it to Google Drive, as it's technically a new map the way I handle the files. But I always notify the group when I add a new map; you must have missed the earlier post.

Yeah i went off the campaign tab one :(

Thanks for clarifying and sorry for the hassle. :(

So i agree with the above plan forward as it covers the only worry i had. Lets kick some butt!

Xarafine will be interested in finding the lake (and the island in it), that is supposedly east of the fort.

She'll mention it, but it's not a huge priority. We have a lot of nation-building stuff to do, after all.

Bein is really interested in pursuing more about the history of the land. Especially after the Stag Lords mad raving. Don't be surprise if i start holding on to interesting artifacts. :)

Looking forward to what we find in the exploration ahead. :-D

Will update the map in the campaign thread ASAP and post exploration stuff too.

Thanks, :)

Map in campaign tab is updated... for now

Hey guys.

There’s a couple of things that, now that I’m reading through the Kingdom-building rules are kind of bugging me. The main one is the absurdly short build times for improvements – especially castles, roads and other large structures but it also applies to smaller structures like farm improvements, houses and everything else. Related to this, I dislike the fact that income applies immediately on construction. Essentially, according to the rules, it is possible to build a castle in one month, or start a farm and have income flowing in by the end of the month. The third issue I have with the rules as written (though this one is very minor) is the large amount of time rulers can spend away from their kingdoms without ill-effects.

As a fix to these problems, and to add a bit of extra realism, I would like to make the following rules change if everyone thinks its worthwhile….

1 Campaign Phase = 1 season = 3 months (Spring, Summer, Autumn, Winter)

Farms:
Produce double income in Autumn, no income in Winter. Normal income in both Summer and Spring.

Fisheries:
In Spring and Summer fisheries produce double income
In Winter and Autumn fisheries produce no income

NEW TERRAIN IMPROVEMENT:

Hunting Lodge

A hunting lodge centralizes the activities of hunters and trappers, and provides furs for clothing and export.
Terrain: Forest or jungle.
Effect: Stability +1 in winter, earn +2 BP per turn when collecting taxes during the Winter, +1 BP in Autumn or spring. No income is collected during Summer.
Cost: 2 BP.

Let me know what you think? (note that you're currently in spring.)

*EDIT*: I've added the magic item purchase rules and item modification rules to the campaign info tab so everyone can see what they are without digging through old posts.

I don't mind the campaign phase being a season. I expect the generic rules are just so as not to overload us with bookkeeping, but we're doing this all "on paper" as it were.

Do you differentiate farms from ranches? (I.e., where the product is produce vs meat, eggs, or dairy?)

I don't mind the campaign phase being a season. I expect the generic rules are just so as not to overload us with bookkeeping, but we're doing this all "on paper" as it were.

Do you differentiate farms from ranches? (I.e., where the product is produce vs meat, eggs, or dairy?)

According to the current rules all of these are just "Farms" - but I'd have no problem expanding the rules to differentiate specific types if you think it'd add to the game?

The above "Farm" seasonal rule would apply to planters (orchards, wheat etc.)

I could add ranchers/herders:
- Double income Spring, no income Winter

First of all, I share some of your concerns, but I think most of the issue is that you cannot simulate a kingdom building that easily without going into complex simulation.

I'm going to try to address most of the questions you raised:

The main one is the absurdly short build times for improvements – especially castles, roads and other large structures but it also applies to smaller structures like farm improvements, houses and everything else.

I fully agree with that. However, in game terms, the problem is more with the big structures that with the others.

For big structures like castles/cathedrals, you just have to imagine that the building is ongoing with first a wooden fort, then more defences added. This does not mean the site cannot be used, even in a degraded way. That will lead to your second question about the immediate reward.

Related to this, I dislike the fact that income applies immediately on construction. Essentially, according to the rules, it is possible to build a castle in one month, or start a farm and have income flowing in by the end of the month.

For most of the buildings, I think you have to think that while you're building them, you are employing more people that to run them. So you could postulate that the "income" you receive during the first period where the building is constructed doesn't come from the building but from the people building it. You're paying them but they will spend their wages here for lodging/food... which will make the local economy grow. Further more, as they are occupied with their work, you will have less issues with stability or loyalty, which could justify the immediate gain.

The third issue I have with the rules as written (though this one is very minor) is the large amount of time rulers can spend away from their kingdoms without ill-effects.

With the distances of travel, having people only out of their kingdom only 21 days, mean they cannot be out of their kingdom by more than 300 miles out of your kingdom (14 hexes away, with 2 hexes covered by day and a week at destination) European kings (and many other) solved this issue by having a nomad behaviour, going from one castle to another and out of the country if necessary for months or years (think about the crusades for example).

As for your rules, I have some second thoughts about certain aspects.
1 Campaign Phase = 1 season = 3 months (Spring, Summer, Autumn, Winter)

This may be an issue in terms of PC age. If we multiply the time by three, the kingdom building will take multiple generations (which is clearly realistic): to claim 80 hexes, the PC will need to claim one hex/turn and spend 20 years. I'm not sure these timing are compatible with the way the AP is written and the resources that the PC will have at their disposal during the various events. So I'm fine with it but you need to take into account this time versus the timelines of the AP.

Farms:
Produce double income in Autumn, no income in Winter. Normal income in both Summer and Spring.

That may look realistic but in my opinion, it is not. from my own experience (I participate in an group with a contract with a local organic vegetable farmer. It a farm run by a single person with his wife working half time there and it provide food for more than 100 families throughout the year). Autumn is clearly a period where you get a bigger income than winter. However, most of the vegetable/fruits/cereals you collect through autumn can be stored and sold during winter, so that there is no food interruption. To be clearer, you do not harvest a lot during winter but you can still consume the products of the year.
Further more, you have to imagine the farms as multipurpose farms: every one had vegetable/fruits/cereals/cattle/poultry/pigs and would for example kill the animals just before winter to consume the meat at that time and avoid feeding too many of them.

In the game terms, farms reduce the consumption and do not increase resources (as you can not really export lot of food without cold chain). This means you can't store them without granaries or equivalent. In reality, every farm had her own granary and could store during autumn and sell it back during winter.

I hope I'm clear in my explanations but what I'm telling is that having a farm produce and sell all year is reasonable.

Obviously, it's just my vision and I'm happy to discuss it.

I agree with just about everything you posted - obviously many aspects of the system require a bit of interpretation (e.g.. a "house" is actually a housing district consisting of multiple dwellings and a 'farm" is lots of farms throughout the area. I've also considered the timeline aspect. I think that it should work OK. Most of the events are not driven by date, instead this is left very flexible and GMs are even encouraged to skip several months of adventuring whilst the kingdom builds. I think this is manageable and we can always revisit the idea.

As far as leaving the kingdom - you again make several good points. Remember, however that a) you don't need to be in the capital itself to avoid penalties - only the kingdom. Also, I'd have no problem with sorting out some mechanics for leaving a regent in charge whilst you're off crusading - reducing the penalty accrued. (Kind of like Richard did - although it didn't work out all that well)

With the farm thing. - The effect of farms in RAW is to reduce consumption by 2BP / turn. If you consider Autumn as harvest time, and as the time when animals are slaughtered prior to winter (a general rule of thumb) then under the modified rule the farm would reduce consumption by 4 in Autumn, but not at all in winter - you can effectively store the excess food (BP) for use in winter, or use it immediately so the mechanics do (i think) allow for overwinter storage.

The one other effect I hadn't considered is the "Holidays" edict. - I *think* that the rules are pretty lenient when it comes to these though, so i don't think it'd be a major issue.

Thoughts?

+1 to Finnabar's points

Ultimate Rulership differentiates build times for all the buildings and breaks down how much BP per month it takes to continue the construction time of a building. Also spending extra bp can hasten build times as well.

RAW in ultimate Rulership for Castle's - 5 bp cost over 12 months's of construction - granting 200 population and an increase in faem upon completeion.

So in our case since the structure is half built it would be 5bp(30 BP total)/6 months before it was completed.

It's a really good pdf to pick up, and expands on a lt of the wonky setups in the Ultimate Campaign book. :)

In the above mentioned PDF you can chose to build buildings out of wood, because in the UR rules all buildings are built out of stone, and reduce the price/build time (and some bonuses) by half.

It also states that a buildings bonuses take effect the next month after its construction to represent, getting population, staffed and etc to make it productive.

However I would press for caution on expanding too many things, especially when we are PBP, it could turn the rules into a tedious number crunch session instead of the already bogged down system it is. Why add more to our plate then is already there? Know-what-I-mean~

I understand the only needing a week to run a kingdom seems a bit wonky but if we increase it more we may just as well roll additional characters and make them Role free to avoid the penalties.

Sorry to suggest a PDF, I personally don't have as much time to rebuild rules like I used to. =/ Two kids, working weeks at a time and such does that to ya lol! :)

Besides I am building on my homebrew world, so I peruse the reviews and get PDF's that rank high among people like Dark Mistress and Endzeitgeist. :)

The Ultimate Kingdoms pdf sounds good, but in the context of PBP I want everyone to have access to all rules without having to pay so we'll stick mostly to the Ultimate Campaign rules set. I did consider increasing build times etc. but I think it'd add a lot of book-keeping and potentially unbalance the campaign turn.

The reason I've suggested a month -> season fix is that it avoids any real effect on balance in the campaign rules, but suggests a few easily integrated mods to include seasonal effects (although these could also be added to RAW).

I don't think there's any need to roll additional characters though - I'm not sure what your point is here since mechanically I don't see that the change would actually matter at all. - As I said above, the campaign is not on a timeframe so the only possible mechanical effect is if someone ages up to "middle aged". Since everyone's quite young (Finn's the oldest at 29) and this wouldn't come in to play until you reach 35 years old, even this wouldn't change anything for 35-29 = 6x4 = 24 campaign turns. And even then it would just be a minor adjustment (which could be adjusted anyway). "Old" wouldn't come into effect for 53-29=24x4=96 campaign turns.

*EDIT* even only increasing the size of your kingdom slowly (average 1 hex / turn) this would be enough time to build a kingdom the size of Lebanon. Given that there are several ways this can be speeded up (once kingdoms grow they can expand faster) You shouldn't have any trouble reaching the size of Belgium before becoming "Old" - and that's assuming no conquest of any sort. - Even so I think doubling the number of hexes you can claim per campaign phase (Season) would help things along.

In all my years of RPGing I've never seen the ageing rules actually have any effect, so i'd also be interested in seeing how they go :)

That being said, If everyone's against the idea we can just stay with RAW.

I'm not against changing rules, I just don't like them being overly changed. So I tend to approach the subject cautiously. ^^; Just me anyway.

I mean we just got to that point, so do we want to really cause more work right off the bat or ease into it and see what makes/doesn't work and go from there?

I've had one campaign where the DM changed the leadership roles to 21 days instead of 7 days. People left and it died quickly.

That is the only reason why I am against changing things like increasing how much time we spend in our roles.

I am not saying you would do that, I just really like the idea of having most of the month to do stuff :) Like train horses.... >.>;

I understand what your doing would be more realistic and as for the rules in the ultimate ruler. I agree and don't expect others to buy a PDF just for an aspect in perhaps the only kingmaker game they play. I was suggesting it for you so that you had a basis for some houserules and it really is a good pdf. It suggest new town sets, new buildings and opens up some, in essence, rule of cool with the Edicts.

Like Town rules for building Underground Cities, Lake towns (Think Boats) and a few other neat things. :)

I'll definitely check out the pdf.

I think the concern about having time off to do stuff in character is important and very valid. But, since the balance would remain between campaign turns and exploration time I think that it should work. 21 days off per season seems reasonable but we could easily increase it to a whole month. (remember that you've actually only spent a little over a month exploring anyway so far)

The paperwork is essentially the same either way (except you'll have to track your ages).

So what are everyone's thoughts? Try it out or let it go? - Especially interested in Finnabar's opinion since he's the most likely to be affected due to his age.

True! :) You will enjoy the PDF, the only other one I can suggest is Louise Porters Jr. Kingdom one, it adds special rooms and such to buildings you create. So you could customize a temple, castle, noble villa etc. I like those kinds of PDF's gets the creative juices flowing. :)

Looking forward to what else you have to suggest. So far so good btw although the Kalds kinda half Bein's guard up lol. ;)

+1 to seeing the Aging Rules come into play. Granted I think Bein is the youngest but its been YEARS since I was in a game that my character retired in and well...

The last one he died battling an army of demons. Yeah... 2nd edition kingdom building got intense at times. :)

I think the map is shared by only you Hymen. :) Sent a request lol! :D

OOOOh Chief Sootscale, this is awesome. Maybe we could a Kald as a cohort. >.>;

<.<;

Map works now. :) Thanks!

Your hand drawn map looks awesome Jack appreciate all your hard work. :D

Hopefully you guys don't mind my rolling ahead of time, like Diplo checks and such. Just never know what Hymen may want or need. So I try and get them out of the way. If it's an issue with anyone I cna stop doing it. :)

Thank you, but I must come clean--I'm using a "hand drawn"-looking style set in Campaign Cartographer to make the map. :) I thought the style would look neat since it's supposed to be Jack (or any of us) doing the map as they go.

Speaking of, I am updating it as we continue to explore, and once we are done with 37 I'll upload a new version.

Hymenopterix, what direction does the Shrike flow through Hex 37? Thanks.

Hand Drawn in Campaign Cartographer! I have that program... Where is this? >.>; Is it an additional plug in? hmmmmmm. Need to reinstall it again as that is Friggen awesome and I still say your awesome as you thought to include this cool feature lol. :)

The Shrike runs from the north-west southward to the east side of the river crossing in Hex 38. (Enters Hex 37 from Hex 29, Leaves Hex 37 into Hex 38)

The handdrawn symbol style is from the first symbol set plug in you can buy. It's got some other nice symbol sets as well-- worth the money if you don't plan on making your own symbols.

Just a reminder as I have been burned over this in another campaign recently. Not meaning for anyone to take offense. :/

I am just as bad as everyone else on remembering these small tidbits. =/ Now if Hymen isn't holding hard and fast to the above rules thats cool.

Oh man, things are about to get hot... Should we clarify position's on the map ahead of time? Just in case this comes to blows?

Bein will be trying to stay close to the center of the group. Tht way if he has to make a move it can be to whoever needs aid/block oncoming enemies.

He also hasn't drawn a weapon yet, still refraining from inciting violence if he can.

This is gonna be fun! :)

"Two men enter, One man leaves",....

Ok so one woman and one Kald enter and one of them leaves isn't as snappy. :)

Do you not think that Tartuk seems intimidated? Or that the chief doesn't seem helpful? - Diplomacy does improve attitude but the chief is clearly scared of the spirits and of Tartuk. You can't just diplomacy someone into acting against their fears.

- We'll see what happens before we need to clarify positions.... see gameplay thread.

Oh understood on your text about Diplo boss man, still Diplo helps us not look like bad people to the Chief of the tribe at least. :)

My post was mainly for myself and other players as I was kindly reminded about them recently. Although I don't believe we overdo skills in this thread at all. :)

Two Priests enter, One faith leaves. Too bad Xarfine has nine gods versus Tartuks... uh. Stone-Man. >:)

So everyone but Bein is going to the Praying Place. :)