Hymenopterix's Colonies of the Salt Coast

Game Master Electric Monk

I recently discovered a cool mapping site. Where you can upload pics and such, it takes a little time to get used to but heres a link.

Map

It requires no permissions or logging in for those who have the link.

Anyone can move anything on the map, so you have to be carefule.

All images can be resized easily. Hold shift left click and drag from edge of image in intended direction.

Whenever you make an adjustment to the map hit enter and repost the new web address. Fairly quick and simple if you want to look into it. :)

Cheers. Will check it out.

Cool. :)

I didn't know if kicking up dirt was a possible attack strategy but I thought I'd at least think outside the box. :) If it doesn't fly that's okay~

Working 20 hr days right now, sorry. made post larger to compensate. :(

Okay not working as often now~ Thank god.

So.

Bein went North-West.

Then took a right.

Is that right?

BTW

This is the Ditzie site I was talking about. The icon on the map can be moved. THe Map can be moved as well. For instructions click on the question mark in the top right.

Also when you make a change hit Enter and it will update with a new web address which you then copy and past into the URL tagging that Paizo supports. Like I did above.

It's a fun little mapping system. :)

I am currently using my account so yeah~

Sorry, got east and west mixed up somehow. Since you followed the voices you would then have gone left rather than right. So,... you're approaching the "praying room" from the north west - behind the bizarre creature. You can therefore move normally. (moved you on the map and added the creature.)

Np I was following your post of him going Northwest instead of going east. :) Thats why I posted the map links lol. :) Visual aids! :D

Map

So more like this then? :)

Yup. Monster-thing at SW of puddle.

Gotcha! Thanks :)

@Jack The plus side of us still being in combat is that it was my turn followed by your turn so our actions worked out perfectly. ;)

Since he disappeared I was trying to play as if it were combat mode so I didn't type too much or do too much. Especially since Bein only moves 20ft per move action. So he can't go far very fast especially if his opponent is invisible and smaller/faster(?) then him.

I bump to show I am here thats all, I will refrain from ever doing it again in the main thread in the future. It wasn't specifically geared towards you Jack at all, so calm down.

And if something bothers you please just say 'its irritating please stop.' Because what you posted was really rude for no reason. I will apologize sincerely for irritating you guys.

If there is anything else that bothers any of you then get it off your chest. Please.

Have a great monday.

Didn't mean to sound harsh, man -- but every forum I've ever been to, "bump" is someone wanting to "bump the thread" up to a more visible view because they are impatient for a reply. It's short hand for "Hurry up, I'm tired of waiting," not "I'm still here" (usually people who want to post that post the words "I'm still here").

So I thought you were yelling at me for not posting fast enough for your tastes--and I was puzzled as it'd been only a day, over the weekend, and we've gone for longer stretches for posting before. Hence the "chill out." I am sorry for misinterpreting you.

For what it's worth, while it's Hymenopterix's call, I do think it would be more appropriate to post such things in the discussion thread.

If I ever do take too long to post, please send me a PM (in case I miss a new message notice or something). Thanks for understanding.

I will just post it in the ooc instead of disrupting the main thread and save Hymen the trouble.

If I had an issue with you I would have posted something like 'Jack?' I wouldnt badger you as stuff happens, as I know persoally this week. Another reason I bump periodically in a number of games lately people would go from 3+ a day to nothing for a week and either they had something major come up or the board didn't update them about the recent updates. Its weird. :/

The latter happens to me far too often. I seriously just open every thread every day because I don't trust the update system. :/

My players do the bump thing sometimes when they want me to move on lol. So i am a bit bump immune I guess anymore.

We do a lot of humorous bumping as well hence why I put some silly dumb catch phrase.

Like I said it was more to say hey I am around. Which I see your point that it could be easily confused with how bumping is normally used.

No worries.

OK, so diplomatic negotiations would probably be pretty boring to go through. So we'll be doing some dice-rolling to determine successes.

To make this work I need to know...

What's your starting bid? (what do you suggest in the ways of treaties, trade, defence etc.) Do you want them to joint the kingdom? Puppet state? Vassal? Ally? Trade partner? War? (I'll set a target value and DC for negotiations based on your answers)

What are you willing to offer the Kalds (initially) to get what you want? (Answers will modify the DC)

Who's doing the negotiating? Anyone helping? (Diplomacy, Intimidation and Sense Motive checks will be useful here.)

I'm working out a diplomacy mechanic on the fly but answers to these questions will help.

So rough draft of mechanics...

Skills:
Diplomacy: Used for checks in non-threatening negotiations.
Intimidation: Used for checks in threatening negotiations. ("if you don't we'll wipe you out")
Sense motive: Used to find out what they want, what they're scared of.

You will be making 5 checks (Diplomacy or Intimidation) against a DC determined by what you're offering / what you're threatening. (can change which of Diplomacy or Intimidation you want to use each time to represent carrot vs. stick).

At the start and between these rolls you can make a sense motive check to see what they're thinking. - What will they currently agree to.

The amount you pass checks by will be added (or subtracted) from your Negotiations Score at each check.

Your final Negotiations Score will determine the final outcome.

At any stage you can stop negotiations if you're happy with the current outcome.

Step 1: Sense Motive (what are they willing to agree to at the start)
Step 2: What offers or threats do you make (determines DC and type of check)
Step 3: Diplomacy or Intimidate roll Can't take 10 or 20, but can Aid Another)
Step 4: I determine what Negotiation Score you have reached (you won't know what outcome this means unless you succeed on a Sense Motive check)
... Rince and repeat up to 5 times.

What do you think? Any suggestions welcome.

Finn and Xarafine have +10 to Diplomacy, so it's a wash as to who should take point.

From a roleplaying perspective, it would be more respectful of the Kalds to have their Chief negotiate directly with Finnabar. Whoever isn't taking the lead can Aid or Use Sense Motive as a second pair of eyes.

Ideally, I think some sort of vassal state would be the best outcome. I think we would all agree that we would not seek to abuse or enslave the Kalds, nor would we tolerate such treatment committed by our own citizens, but given their primitive natures, it would be difficult to see them as equals or independent trading partners.

I'm not sure what the Kalds have to offer. Is their lair right next to the gold mine?

We could offer them clothing, education, agricultural training, harvested crops, livestock. I'm not sure what they would be most interested in, though.

Jack can Aid a Sense Motive check.

The way I'd see it is they'd be left an allied city state -- they may be primitive, but they are small and can trade with us information (even if it takes a bit of "translation") as well as access to the mine.

I second Jack's proposal.

That the Scootscale Nation remain a Soverign nation in its own right and that trade be open between our nation and theirs. If they choose to join us then we can change terms.

I will think more on it when The Teachers questions have been answered. :)

The cave complex they live in is an abandoned silver mine although they don't seem to have any silver lying around (or anything metal apart from Tartuk's hoard of shiny things, all of which looks to have been found rather than made by the Kalds- They also seem to be pretty good at hunting so maybe furs would be something they can trade. And, of course, they've lived in the area for a lot longer than you. What secrets might they know?....

I agree on the general purposes that we will not spoil the Kalds. On the other hand, my idea is that we will have to fully integrate them to the March in the next years.

The way I see it is that as most of you said, we will start to propose them to trade in furs and moonradishes (remember the first time we encountered them). We will also trade their knowledge of the surroundings. In return we can offer clothing, tools and livestock. We can also agree to protect them against threats to their tribe. However, the most important thing is that we will offer that their youth be educated with ours so that they can be fully integrated in time.

They live too close to us and are a too few to remain a "vassal state" or "trading partner" for long.

As a secondary asset, I would like to have the mine evaluated and if it has potential, to buy it from them, offering them decent housing instead and an interest in the mining benefits.

As for who does the negotiations, as you all posted, I think it is better here that Finnabar handles the negotiations themselves with aid another form all. Xarafine will handle the sense motive again with aid another from all.

Hymen, that's why I said they'd be good for trading information.

Jack with his chaotic goodness and me with my bleeding heart liberalness feel uneasy about assimilating them, but that's something to work out with time. And of course we could ASK the kalds if they would want to join the March and accept Finnabar as chief, and OFFER education to them, which they should feel free to refuse.

As long as "educating" them doesn't involve forcibly taking them from their parents and beating them any time they speak their native language or doing anything of their own culture.... as we real life humans have done to each other....

Treaty Proposal

We agree to the following:

On Territory:

#1 – That the Scootscale Tribe be recognized as a Sovereign Nation under the Law.
#2 – That the aforementioned Scootscale Nation’s territory (defined as the Scootscale Mine, with the attending access to river and radish patch) be recognized as the Scootscale Nation’s sovereign territory under the Law, and shall be inviolate unto the Group (and any later signatories of this treaty).
#2.1 – That, in accordance with the Law, the Scootscale Nation has the right to demand toll from any who wishes to cross the borders of its sovereign territory, as well as the right to defend its borders against unlawful invasion.
#3 – Since the Group has established a territory, this shall likewise be sovereign under the Law, and inviolate unto the Scootscale Nation (and any additional signatories of this treaty).
#3.1 – That, in accordance with the Law, the Group has the right to demand toll from any who wishes to cross the borders of its sovereign territory, as well as the right to defend its borders against unlawful invasion.
#4 – That any future signatories of this Treaty shall be recognized as Sovereign Nations and receive the right to demand toll and defend the sovereign borders of their territory, which shall be defined upon the time of their signing the Treaty.
#5 – That, if necessary, all signatories of this Treaty may call upon any of the other signatories to assist them in the case that their sovereign borders are violated or under threat from any party, signatory or otherwise.

On Trade:

#1 – That we, the Undersigned (being the Scootscale Nation and the group currently known as the Marchlands Group) are engaged in exclusive trade, at price rates to be agreed upon at a later date.
#1.1 – With the Scootscale Nation providing silver.
#1.2 – With the Group providing access to various trade goods from foreign quarters.
#2 – That this trade-relationship be wholly exclusive, allowing no other parties to be included, unless one or both parties formally dissolves it.
#2.1 – Should any party offer various trade goods to the Scootscale Nation at preferable rates, the Scootscale Nation shall offer the right of first refusal to the Group.
#2.2 – Should any party offer silver to the Group at preferable rates, the Group shall offer the right of first refusal to the Sootscale Nation.

Deliberation:

#1 - That all signatories of this Treaty shall be united in a Treaty Council, which will meet at least once a Year to discuss any matters pertaining to all parties united in this Treaty.
#1.1 – That every signatory may call for a meeting of the Treaty Council, should they feel that a matter has arisen which demands the attention of the full Council of signatories.
#2 – That all signatories of this Treaty shall appoint at least one individual with the rank of Councillor, with the rank, authority, intellect and wisdom to properly represent their Nation in Treaty Council, who shall be assigned to attend Treaty Council on the appointed date.
#3 – That each Nation be given full review of Treaty Council decisions, allowing each signatory’s government to ratify or protest its Ambassadors’ decisions.
#3.1 – That any decision made by an Ambassador which the Ambassador’s government objects to, be formally protested by the government in question before the Treaty Council before the passage of thirty days and nights after the making of said decision.
#4 – That all Ambassadors be given the right of safe and unmolested travel through the sovereign lands of all the signatories of this Treaty.
#4.1 – That all Ambassadors be excluded from toll in the execution of their passage to and from Treaty Council.
#4.2 – That any and all Staff attached to the Ambassador not be exempted from toll.
#5 – That Treaty Council be held in a location to be agreed upon at a later date, allowing for later decision to set up a rotating schedule.

Education

#1 - Any that choose to attend education within any Soverign nations borders will be exempt from toll.
#1.1 - Choice to attend eduation can be declined without repercussion from any party.
#1.2 - Education is offered freely, save for personal expenses or unforseen events, so that all parties may learn to coexist with one another.
#2 - Those attending schools within any soverign nation will be protected under Kingdom law from abuse or retaliation from citizens of the nation.
#2.1 - Citizens unlawfully and unjustly descriminating will face the uppermost punishment under the law of the kingdom.
#2.2 - If descrimination continues, the kingdom whose people are attending school abroad extract their people at the cost of the soverign nation that failed to uphold the treaty.
#3 - All the undersigned, and future signatories, will have the same rights as the originators of the treaty.

Integration - Into the Marchland Kingdom
#1 - At any time a signatory may give up their soverign status and join the Marchland's as a province or barony that will be furthermore proteted as a vassal state of the kingdom.
#1.1 - Those who choose to join their kingdom with the Marchland will be likewise defended from dicrimination under the Law from the kingdom's citizens.
#1.2 - Those who continue abuse or discrimination will be punished to the utmost extent of the law and this right is enforcible by the ruling leadership.
#2 - If unrightly represented the integrated province may beseech a higher court, up to the King himself, for their rightful judgement in the case of corruption or in the face of incomptence among the magistrate.
#3 - If abuse continues, after a rightful ruling has been adminstered, the citizen, or person's responsible, shall face banishment or worse by judgement from the high court or King to end the matter.
#3.1 - Military might shall be brought to bear on townships that decide to rebel against the rightful ruling of their lordship in ending unjust persecution under the law.
#4 - Those who join with the Marchlands will agree to obey the Law of the Kingdom. Swearing never to create a law that would go against the mission of the Marcher Lord.
#4.1 - Individual Baronies or provinces may have laws in their own right, the ability to tax their citizens as they see fit so long as due respect and tithes are given to the Marcher Lord every year on an date to determined in the future.
#4.2 - Outside interference to individual baronies or provinces can only be performed by the Marcher Lord or by his chosen representative to deter violence or laws that would go against the Laws of the Kingdom overall.

Amendment:

That this Treaty may be amended at a later date, provided majority agreement is reached among the signatories.

How does that look? Seemed fair enough. :/

Wow,... Lawyering it up!

Told you I was going to think on it. :) Granted it isn't all of my work but I did add a lot more to it. :)

I have put aid another rolls in the main thread. Both were a pass but I wasn't sure who to give it to.

Sense Motive: Consider it more like Bein clears his throat or something when something deceptive goes on.

Diplomacy: Despite being a heavily armed and armored man with a Skull stag for a helm he is treating the Kalds with the utmost respect. Despite the fact one of them keeps running their clawss through his hair...

Personal sense motive - I got Nothin'. :B: 1d20 + 3 ⇒ (4) + 3 = 7

Sense Motive: 1d20 + 10 ⇒ (9) + 10 = 19

Well. Xarafine got most of it. That last bit will no doubt come back to haunt us later. :-p

Concerning the treaty and Bein proposition, Finnabar is not planning to do it that way.

First, the Kalds are not educated enough to grasp such fine concepts of law. Second, because the Kalds are a too small tribe compared to the number of humans that will eventually come.
Third, because if we develop towards Pitax road, we will come into conflict of territory with them or have their territory as an enclave into ours.

To avoid these future issues, Finnabar will want to push for an integration of the next generation of Kalds.

That said, Finnabar is not going to take anything from them forcefully or prevent them from speaking their language or taking them away from their families.

As a player I clearly understand how this posture on "civilizing" the Kalds may sound, especially in the US but also in my own country France. And I am aware that Jack and Finnabar are at odds on the way to build a kingdom. Finnabar will count on Jack to put arguments forwards to protect "the people" if he thinks Finnabar goes too far.

On how to proceed, I suggest we keep the discussion on how to proceed in this thread as well as the discussion on what we want from the Kalds. And I suggest we move to the main thread for the rolls and the negociation turns.

Aid another Xarafine sense motive:

1d20 + 10 ⇒ (2) + 10 = 12

At a glance I like the intent of Bein's proposition but I agree it may be too complex. I also need to think on things a bit.

Also, Hymen -- in your low magic world, does magic armor, jewelry, and clothing adjust to the wearer's size as it does in the rules?

Proposition will come tonight, trying to take into accound Bein and Jack views. Kidlet is waking up..

I was just putting it out there for discussion as it hit the high points of what Jack and Xarafine wanted. Use or discard as you will. ;)

However Bein's sees Integrating a society that just threw off the shackles of a tyrant may be impossible atm but I won't be surprised if Finnabar finds a way. ;)

So for the Kalds Bein merely wants to avoid conflict and protect their right to their territories unless they choose to surrender those rights and join the kingdom.

For our own citizens a clear understanding of where the law has drawn a line between on discriminating against not just the Kalds but other future allies/citizens. Pteran or otherwise.

For the record I didn't know you lived in France Finnabar! >.>

That is awesome! And I really wish I had studied my French speaking more. :(

Fortunately I'm not the one facing the ethical decision! But it's good to see that PCs are thinking about the very real issues involved.... (Australian here so similar experiences to the Americans).

Jack: no, armour does not change size to fit which may explain why none of the Kali's we're wearing the scale-mail. Tartuk was wearing bracers that were too big for him.

I am looking forward to what everyone comes up with. :) It would be neat to have a Kald companion or followers in the future~

Where are we on this?

Dunno >.>; Waiting on Finn to put forth his proposal that he is putting forth. But he was busy with family I believe possibly. :)

Just waiting on Finn's proposal. I'm assuming something's come up in his private life. If it takes much longer I'll figure out an alternative method for an agreement so that we can move forward.

This set of negotiations should be relatively easy and simple to do, but I wanted to try out the mechanics with the Kalds so that if/when similar situations arise in the future I have a mechanic that works.

I'll let it go until tomorrow afternoon (my time) then move things forward... Sound good?

No rush, run your game as you need to. We can continue talking amongst ourselves for now. I had a document ready to go was the only reason why I was so quick. :)

Love Kingmaker~!

Although the new Osorian campaign is looking promising, the sphinx pic is the best I have ever seen and not for reasons that are pervy. :P

Sorry for the delay Folks, just spent a few days in hospital with one of my daughters. She's all right now but gave us a little scare.

Okay, here is my proposal:

Territory: Agreement with Chief Scootscale Hex 37 and 30. No settlement on these hexes but right of passage on hex 37 (see mine question).

Free access and hunting rights: Agreed for all the hexes with the following rules: no hunting in cultures and no stealing or killing of farm animals. This will be easy to explain as we will import those animals and they do not look like the savage ones living here.

Law and justice: Conflicts between Kalds and humans will be rendered by Finnabar with a consultation of Chief Scootscale. Punishment will be as severe for humans and Kalds.

Exchange of knowledge:To facilitate exchange, every Kald youngling will spend half a year in Stagwatch learning human ways. They will be accompanied by a couple of willing adults that will in return teach the Kalds ways to our diplomats and voluntary hunters. Any youngling that wishes to stay longer and learn a human profession will be welcome.

Trade: The Thorn March will trade with the Scootscale tribe food and manufactured items against furs, game and fish. In return, if the old mine the Kalds live in is productive, Chief Scootscale will agree to have a crew of selected humans reopen the mine. The Thorn March will sell the silver and share the benefits with the Kalds: a third for the miners, a third for the Kalds and a third for the March. If the mine is
productive, the march will build replacement housing for the Kalds on a chosen location within their territory.

Protection:THe March will protect the Kalds against both outside threats (humans or beasts) and internal threats from its own population. In return, the Kalds will assist the March as much as they can if a common threat is present.

Yikes! Glad to hear she's okay and no worries, I assumed something came up. :)

Welcome back Finn. Good to hear that your daughter is OK. Hope you and the rest of your family are over the scare.

Since You're agreeing to all of Scootscales' propositions, the negotiations target will be quite low... The only things I think you've added is the Exchange of Knowledge

Diplomacy check please (results vary according to level of success) so no DC provided :)

Welcome back Finn. Good to hear that your daughter is OK. Hope you and the rest of your family are over the scare.

Since You're agreeing to all of Scootscales' propositions, the negotiations target will be quite low... The only things I think you've added is the Exchange of Knowledge

Diplomacy check please (results vary according to level of success) so no DC provided :)

We've added the mine reopening as well and the resolution of conflicts between Kalds and Humans.

Jack, Xarafine, do you agree with the proposition?

I've read it through a couple of times, and can't see anything amiss.

I'm good moving forward with your proposal.

Suggesting we relocate them so we can produce the mine is almost an insult. We could teach them how to mine i think and the chieftan seems interested. That's all I have.

Finn, I'm glad your daughter is okay!

The proposal sounds good to me. I agree largely with Bein's amendment --

I would say if the mine re-opens, kalds might also be invited to work in the mines and get an additional share (per the share being offered the miners) -- or perhaps they can keep some housing there if they work there. But I think maybe multiple options can be discussed and an agreement reached one way or the other.

I think we should be very clear about passage rights -- can we build a road through the hexes, for example, if the kalds are allowed to demand toll?

Suggesting we relocate them so we can produce the mine is almost an insult. We could teach them how to mine i think and the chieftan seems interested. That's all I have.

This was not meant to be insulting. Finnabar figured the Kalds didn't know anything about mining (which is ). Reguarding rehousing, it was proposed at a compensation but Finn has nothing against having the Kalds still live on the mining site. The "new location" choice was intended to be the Kalds' choice.

We could change the trade paragraph by

Trade: The Thorn March will trade with the Scootscale tribe food and manufactured items against furs, game and fish. In return, if the old mine the Kalds live in is productive, Chief Scootscale will agree to have a crew of selected humans reopen the mine. Voluntary Kalds who want to participate into the mining operations will be treated as part of the crew with all the benefits. The Thorn March will sell the silver and share the benefits with the Kalds: a third for the miners (be them human or Kalds), a third for the Kalds and a third for the March. If the mine is
productive, the march will build replacement housing for the Kalds if they want it on any location of their choice on their territory, included on the miing site if they chose so.

Now if Bein isn't able to do a sense motive alone then please take it as a aid another.

If he can roll a sense motive on his own he can relay the information to Finn and Xarafine as he politely stays on the side lines.

Up to you Hymen. ;)