GM Kiora's Wrath of the Righteous

Game Master Kiora Atua

Guess who's never taking prisoners again? These guys!

It's going to be a shame to inform our one remaining prisoner that he needs to be executed. I nominate Valaria.

*weeps* Poor Garil :(

Hosilla escaped both of my tables and hardened their hearts?! D:

She's a wily one I guess.

EDIT: I nominate Ehren cause maybe he'll smash himself in the face again :D

Except as a CDG that'd be extra bad D:

Well, to be fair, I don't think Hrut actually meant to leave them unattended. He's at a bit of a disadvantage here - he still has to defend himself!

And Ehren, yeah. Chances are he'll try to coup de grace him and end up cutting himself in half with a club, somehow. :P

She hasn't escaped yet dammit! She just hasn't reached the end of her tether yet :P

Don't worry, if it comes to that Ary can Aid another your defense along with the attack to negate the bonus she gave you! ;)

Kiora: How long has it been since Hrut (or anyone) last saw Hosilla and Uziel?

Well, to be fair, I don't think Hrut actually meant to leave them unattended. He's at a bit of a disadvantage here - he still has to defend himself!

And Ehren, yeah. Chances are he'll try to coup de grace him and end up cutting himself in half with a club, somehow. :P

Alas, Hrut was reminded and then neglected to follow-up on the prisoners anyway. I was also careful to point out that Anevia and Garil - the only NPCs really capable of watching over the prisoners - were also rushing after Horgus to his room.

Not trying to point fingers cause technically anyone could have avoided it ;D

Not as bad as my f2f group though- I use maps and miniatures - so they had a nice visual reminder that Hosilla was being left outside of Blackwing with a blind man (who at the time was stricken with grief in a heap on the ground)

When they got up and went outside of Blackwing to check on Aravashnial I got cussed out when I stood up and dramatically took her pawn away from them :p

Kiora: How long has it been since Hrut (or anyone) last saw Hosilla and Uziel?

About a half hour to 45 minutes - between going upstairs and chatting with Horgus, and then Li'an doing a quick sweep of a very large building, and Ary filling up at least a few baths (probably not enough for everyone) - you've been busy :0

Not as bad as my f2f group though- I use maps and miniatures - so they had a nice visual reminder that Hosilla was being left outside of Blackwing with a blind man (who at the time was stricken with grief in a heap on the ground)

When they got up and went outside of Blackwing to check on Aravashnial I got cussed out when I stood up and dramatically took her pawn away from them :p

Groupie #1: Does anyone remember where we parked our prisoners?

It was a joke cause I knew your group had reacted that way. Ary has a hard time justifying prisoners as is, now that she knows the situation, though. And the fact this one could bite so terribly hard does make it a scary prospect. Worse... she'd already said Uziel was her responsibility.

As for someone else taking care of the prisoners, I figured the nudge to Hrut would send him to them. :(

Hrut is very massive. Gotta give him more than a nudge, otherwise inertia ;)

I guess I just kinda assumed he was dragging them around like Ary was.

But oh well, no use crying over spilled milk. We'll get them back. ;P

Or Hrut will correct us and inform us that the reason the rats are swarming in the pantry is because that's where he put the prisoners. :)

Two problems solved simultaneously!

Seriously, though. I figured he -was- watching them while Ary drew the baths, Li'an searched the house, etc., since he didn't really state any other actions. :)

Also, remember that the DC to escape bindings is 20+the binder's CMB. So, taking a sneakpeek, if Fen'wen tied her up, it's DC 22 to escape. If Hrut did, it's much, much higher. I don't remember who tied them. A Nat 19 with various mods may well have been enough, though. It's also a full minute to unite herself (though time doesn't seem to be in question here ;p)

I went with the assumption that Hrut was exploring given he stated this as his intent

I'm happy reading between the lines for small things - like a person using light to see in a dark room, or assuming that you'll have your weapons drawn while exploring a threatening place, or that spellcasters meditate on their spells in the morning, or that you take heavy armor off at night so you don't incur fatigue.

Buuuttt when it comes to really important things, like guarding prisoners, or marching order, or keeping a watch at night, I need an in-character, explicit statement of action or at least intent.

Also, remember that the DC to escape bindings is 20+the binder's CMB. So, taking a sneakpeek, if Fen'wen tied her up, it's DC 22 to escape. If Hrut did, it's much, much higher. I don't remember who tied them. A Nat 19 with various mods may well have been enough, though. It's also a full minute to unite herself (though time doesn't seem to be in question here ;p)

That's interesting - I thought that it was an opposed check using the DCs outlined right here.

Oh well, too late :p

That makes sense, and it's why you're the DM-lady. You're the one who's paying explicit attention to things. :)

But yeah, it's generally assumed you take 20 to tie someone up. :)

It makes keeping prisoners more manageable. :)

TMYK!

I assumed it was opposed Escape Artist vs Escape Artist check. That's what Li'an used when she tied them up originally. But I've been pretty certain it was only a matter of time before Uziel slipped his bonds, as I expect he's plenty skilled at Escape Artist (And man were those some terrible rolls on tying them up :P)

Uziel is indeed very slippery, but he was disabled at the time so he didn't bother trying.

I'll be using the CMB rules as outlined moving forwards, my bad, I wrote down Li'an's escape artist checks way back when and never bothered looking the rules up :P

As for manageable prisoners - I recommended to my f2f group the cheapness/lightweightness of manacles and I shall do the same for you.

And ugh@take 20.

I'm fine with not using 20+cmb, and instead rolling. But in this case, it really feels like something you'd do right or not at all, you know? :)

Just expect Ary to be more hands-on in the binding process from now on. :)

It's an opposed roll that I generally do in secret in person (like stealth, or sense motive) - but in pbp I trust you guys to not metagame and wimp out just because you rolled a 5 stealth - just roleplay it out.

I'm very lenient about aid another - and also about you guys generally knowing your rolls and DCs ahead of time - and I expect my players to take advantage of that.

It's generally an aesthetic thing - take 10/20 is about getting guaranteed successes outside of risky situations - and with my use of aid another you virtually get guaranteed successes in the same environments. I just prefer the idea that you succeed because ~teamwork!~ not because DC 10-20 skill checks are ultimately meaningless in PF outside of combat.

I guess I'll stick to my guns and keep with the opposed Escape Artist checks instead of 20+CMB.

I like it because CMB is basically just a measure of STR/DEX - which doesn't have much correlation with knot-tying - while it makes logical sense to me that someone good at getting out of bindings is also good at tying knots.

I'm a bit on the opposite side of the spectrum, I guess.

I understand the teamwork aspect, but I don't feel like aid another makes sense in a lot of situations, or with certain skills.

I like taking 10 and 20 (the former more than the latter) because I feel like there are certain things a character should be able to do reliably well. Certain tasks have DCs that are set in stone, but then you have those DCs that rely on a lot of other factors, such as opposed checks - in such cases, it's a gamble between doing reasonably well or exceeding expectations. Especially for Knowledge checks, which can never be retried and tend to reward you for rolling really high. I haven't really been missing it, though - we haven't really needed it.

We haven't really needed it.

That's indeed the goal. I want you to ultimately succeed because of your decision making - not dice rolling - though dice rolling is a core part of a d20 game (at least to me).

I promise to never, ever, make an integral game moment ultimately boil down to succeeding on a singular skill check.

If I think auto-success is a thing, I don't ask for a roll. For example, I don't make people roll swim checks in still water, unless there's some extreme circumstances (like trying to swim in full heavy armor, or while carrying 250 lbs of loot).

Also with five aid anothers you get a really good shot at +10 to whatever roll, which is, on average, superior to take 10. You guys haven't done that ever, but I like the idea of the group needing to pass through a really, really important obstacle and banding together to do it.

At higher levels, between your crazy mythic attribute scores and various mythic abilities (like surges!) you will be able to pass DC50+ skill checks. I expect that, and I have some cool (I hope?) plans for that.

Certain tasks have DCs that are set in stone, but then you have those DCs that rely on a lot of other factors, such as opposed checks - in such cases, it's a gamble between doing reasonably well or exceeding expectations. Especially for Knowledge checks, which can never be retried and tend to reward you for rolling really high.

I believe that failure is often a more interesting story telling event than success.

In any case, a level 20 fighter has a 5% chance to miss a level 1, naked, goblin stuck in a tanglefoot bag. So it's silly to me that the same fighter would be so godly to automatically succeed on nearly every skill check they make.

I generally consider the random dice chance to be a perk of playing a d20 game, not a hindrance. And that failure isn't necessarily your fault - while a master rogue might be the sneakiest guy ever, he isn't suddenly immune to a random creaky floorboard. Or a patrol wheeling around the corner at exactly the wrong time..

I don't feel like aid another makes sense in a lot of situations, or with certain skills.

The only one I understand here is Ride.

With perception, for example, have you never worked together with a friend to find missing car keys? ;)

Or with knowledge checks, worked on a project together - with a different perspective things can become clearer, quicker.

Even ride can be for new folks. Getting seated properly is a huge step. :p

But yeah, I'm fine with however you'd like to run things, Kiora-lady. :)

Anything I say is meant to inform or entertain, not persuade, when it comes to comments on someone else's DMing. At least in a thread. In a PM, expect begging. :)

In theory the Rogue is the only one who *can* be immune to the creaky floorboard, since they can pick up skill mastery. Which, incidentally, is something I've been meaning to ask about.

I'm A-Ok with the rolling for everything, though, as take 10 really takes away some of the interesting mistakes even when it's a non-essential roll. For example, when Li'an tried to open Hosilla's box and kept flubbing it :)

Also I think opposed skill checks on escape artist makes more sense. Why should a full BAB class with +4 strength be better at securing someone with ropes than someone who is an expert at escaping bonds?

For an equivalent of the 20+CMB thing I'd say that being trained in escape artist would give you the ability to use 20+Dex+Ranks in Escape Artist as your bonus instead (if not the full skill bonus)

I don't feel like aid another makes sense in a lot of situations, or with certain skills.

I'm of the opinion that if you can give a feasible RP explanation of how you're aiding someone or being aided, that it should work. It's very much up to the DM how to interpret it though. I know if it was completely absurd, I'd just discount the bonus for that situation as the DM.

Anything I say is meant to inform or entertain, not persuade, when it comes to comments on someone else's DMing. At least in a thread. In a PM, expect begging. :)

Well, there is no persuading me into allowing take 10/take 20 in my games, I'm just explaining my personal distaste for it. :P I probably should have listed it at recruitment, it didn't occur to me.

I totally understand why other DMs like it and use it, especially as a time-saving measure. -Disable Device comes to mind.

My PoV is - if you can auto-succeed, I'll just say you auto-succeed and we'll move on. I demand dice rolls at any time I think there is a chance of failure or the swings of fate just going badly for you.

For example, some of the stronger/more skilled folks among you will eventually get to a point where I don't demand climb checks for things mundane like climbing a tree. But I will still demand a skill check if you are trying to climb something and a pesky demon is actively trying to make you fall to your doom, by shooting spells or arrows or whatever at you

Also, for Knowledges, I think I've done a pretty good job of just handing you guys knowledge that I think your characters should just know. I make you roll for stuff that you might not know, depending on what books you've read/whether or not you fell asleep in Miammir's demon class/heard a snippet of hear-say etc ;)

The BAB is supposed to represent the how sturdy you make the bonds. That being said... I agree. :p

It makes sense when tying someone up in combat; you can't tie them any better than you can control them. Post-combat though, escape artist v escape artist makes a lot more sense. (On the same coin, someone good at tying ropes knows how to unite them :)), and as I've never seen someone get tied up in combat, I don't think the BAB version really makes any sense.

Re:aid

I'm probably gonna be a little abusive of the aid option, so when it doesn't make sense, just say so. I try to point out how she aids, but I may miss it sometimes. :)

I'm probably gonna be a little abusive of the aid option, so when it doesn't make sense, just say so. I try to point out how she aids, but I may miss it sometimes. :)

I expect you to :p

Especially since I allow aiding after you know you've failed.

The idea is you have a chance to roll and succeed at something of your own gumption. You succeed? Hell yeah! You're a badass, good job.

You failed? Well, there's still hope your friends can pull through for you. Assuming you have the time to burn and things aren't moving in rounds ;) And also assuming you aren't the only person capable of making the roll (like Heal, or Knowledge).

Just in case the question fell through the cracks above: How do you handle skill mastery in the absence of take 10?

Wrath-Avoidance Note: Not arguing for the ability to take 10, I'm perfectly ok with replacing skill mastery with something else masterful, or just pretending it doesn't exist. Please don't send any more Howlers! ;)

@_@; I hope you don't think I'm the type to snap at you for asking a question, sheesh, makin' me feel bad.

My pharmacy technicians always tell me I'm the chill one about stuff :<

If you're using something like skill mastery, or some class ability/feat/spell/whatever that really revolves around the take 10/take 20 rules, then I'm fine with you using take 10/20 with that ability in mind.

EDIT: also I <3 howlers. I added that encounter myself because I think they're so cool ;D

I like the idea of an evil hunter who instead of using hunting hounds uses a pack of howlers ;p so don't be surprised if that happens someday when you're more capable of taking on a pack of em

That's just my sense of humor, I don't think you're the vengeful GM type at all :p

Edit: It's just that with mythic rules take 10 is dangerous for rogues. Elf Rogue + Breadth of Knowledge + Skill Mastery + Mythic Skill Mastery + Mythic Breadth of Knowledge lets you take 10 with a +16 bonus, meaning you'd never ever roll again :p

You are very clearly a rageface and need to calm down. Check yourself before you wreck yourself, Kiora-lady! :0

I think we're just being playful. I know I am. And I've also been burned by my laid-back approach to stuff that's important to others.

Please don't murder our characters and drag their bodies through Kenabres to salt the land with their blood. :(

Please don't murder our characters and drag their bodies through Kenabres to salt the land with their blood. :(

Unless that's part of the plot, I guess, and then oh well ;)

Also I stealth edited the last post, because my submit button finger is jumpy :P

Or if it's just a really cool idea for a demon. :) Brb, designing creature...

Are there any demons that work off of the absence of hope, or specifically despair, Lady of Many Krakens?

Edit: It's just that with mythic rules take 10 is dangerous for rogues. Elf Rogue + Breadth of Knowledge + Skill Mastery + Mythic Skill Mastery + Mythic Breadth of Knowledge lets you take 10 with a +16 bonus, meaning you'd never ever roll again :p

So, mythic character using mythic rules to make themselves into basically superheroes?!

You've totally blind-sided me, Li'an D: everything i've expected from this game, shattered, ruined.

Are there any demons that work off of the absence of hope, or specifically despair, Lady of Many Krakens?

Hmmmmmmmmmmm

If you don't already know I'm not gonna tell ya! With all you people GMing and knowing enemy HP totals off the top of your heads I'll take my surprise enemies where I can ;)

So, mythic character using mythic rules to make themselves into basically superheroes?!

You've totally blind-sided me, Li'an D: everything i've expected from this game, shattered, ruined.

Ok now you've gone and made me feel silly. *goes off to sit in corner quietly* :P

Some of the mythic stuff seems like sticking your hand in the cookie jar when no one is looking. It's hard to believe the jar isn't a trap!

Now if I only had twice as many mythic abilities so I could get everything I want at once :P

I didn't see the HP edit from Markus. Or somehow just missed it.

He also forgot that Ary bashes for piercing damage! :0

Hrut is our guy with a baseball bat. :)

I just wanted to make sure I did t come up with a despair demon when it already existed and better. :p

I didn't see the HP edit from Markus. Or somehow just missed it.

Calling out some explicitly metagamey stuff without asking for a knowledge roll is a good way to have an enemy suddenly gain some vastly different stats than expected ;D

Just sayin~

Hey, Markus got his bachelor's in advanced thermodynamics and minored in swarm studies. He wrote his thesis on the impact of large flat objects and alchemy upon the common swarm. His Thesis Kioralady! :0

:) Him and his fancy wizard college education. #justmugglethings.

Actually he has a drawback that makes him specifically weak against swarms D:

but I guess that could be because he knows too much about swarms O_O

Calling out some explicitly metagamey stuff without asking for a knowledge roll is a good way to have an enemy suddenly gain some vastly different stats than expected ;D

Wow, that totally explains why the rabbit in Monty Python and the Holy Grail was killing people... They meta-gamed the rabbit's stats and pissed off the GM!

@Li'an: Pros and Cons of Ehren v. Ary:

Ehren is better at tracking. Ary can give a bigger aid bonus by pointing him towards things she does spot.

v.

Ary is faster, so if Ary slows for tracking, well move faster than if we follow Ehren's lead. Ary can use the str bonus more effectively.

Also... I get the feeling fatigue will set in soon. :0

Now would be a spectacular time to be able to be able to cast Deadeye's Lore.

So the question is whether we travel at 15' with a slightly lower bonus, or 10' with a higher overall bonus. I'd say the bonus likely shouldn't matter too much compared to speed. Scent gives you a DC that's way lower than anything you'd get otherwise. Even an hour old trail is DC 12.

Ehren basically (almost, nearly!) can't fail DC 12. Ary, in her condition, can. That's also a big consideration.

But I think speed is the main concern. If we could longstrider or something, it'd be nice, too. :p

So if I'm accounting for the penalties correctly, Ary has a +4 (+5 w/ guidance), and Ehren has a +9 (+10 w/guidance).

I'm not sure if aiding works in this particular case, but we could always just both be bugbears and make separate checks.

To be honest, I think we're overthinking this though. :P

but we could always just both be bugbears and make separate checks.

why not three bugbears ;D

'-' if you managed to find the crusaders while half of you are disguised as bugbears itd be like a shakespearean comedy

"Okay, I can understand the one in hides with the cowl. And I can kind of understand the sensibly dressed ones in the maroon floppy things with the long boots. But what the Hell is going on with this one wearing one of our tabards? Doesn't she know that clashes with her fur?" -Inquisitors of Shelyn, probably.

Oh my goodness, I need to make that an encounter as well.

Fashion Police Inquisitors of Shelyn hits extra hard cause you just got burned by her judgment of destruction.

Despite the wondrous adventures three bugbears could have, the real reason for only one bugbear is that it gives us one hour of tracking, versus 19 minutes for three :p

Bonus-wise, there's nothing that prevents the others from doing aid another on the tracking, even untrained, so it's likely something closer to +6/+7 vs +11/+12. It's a tough choice really. I'm tempted to lean towards speed still, but Ehren would basically auto-succeed on tracking checks at the cost of speed.

Question: If you have two trackers, and one starts tracking to get a general direction, and the second leapfrogs them by 50 feet or so and tries to pick up the trail there, can you go faster than the normal half-speed? In theory I'd imagine you could do it faster than a single person following the trail.

You actually can't follow tracks over DC10 untrained, only find them via perception:

To find tracks or to follow them for 1 mile requires a successful Survival check. You must make another Survival check every time the tracks become difficult to follow. If you are not trained in this skill, you can make untrained checks to find tracks, but you can follow them only if the DC for the task is 10 or lower.

A creature with the scent ability can follow tracks by smell, making a Wisdom (or Survival) check to find or follow a track. The typical DC for a fresh trail is 10 (no matter what kind of surface holds the scent). This DC increases or decreases depending on how strong the quarry’s odor is, the number of creatures, and the age of the trail. For each hour that the trail is cold, the DC increases by 2. The ability otherwise follows the rules for the Survival skill. Creatures tracking by scent ignore the effects of surface conditions and poor visibility.

With scent, the DC is ~10+, which qualifies you for untrained tracking, but I won't be allowing untrained aid-anothers without that scent.

Question: If you have two trackers, and one starts tracking to get a general direction, and the second leapfrogs them by 50 feet or so and tries to pick up the trail there, can you go faster than the normal half-speed? In theory I'd imagine you could do it faster than a single person following the trail.

Aw no triple bugbears ;~; but..but... the hijinks!

As for the speed thing - probably not. You get a solid mile of tracking out of one check though :p If you wanna speed up....

You move at half your normal speed while following tracks (or at your normal speed with a –5 penalty on the check, or at up to twice your normal speed with a –20 penalty on the check).

Gonna try dat -20? ;D