Elven team in Campaign Elves vs Dwarves -- Dwarves and Gnomes Keep Out (Inactive)

Game Master Chainmail

Wil has not been to the magic shop. Only a shady jeweler and moneychanger.

Is Will going alone?

Seltyn would have sent him with Suny and Spider, since Spider is taking his leave for now, and they'd only get what Spider can arrange for now. Those 2 should be able to do that, and get back fast.

I would lik t'go t' this Magic shoppe. Would like t'see if'n I can get me a wand of 'Cure Light Wounds' t'help maybe pull a little more weight in'a group. (^_^)

I thought we were all going into town. I guess we're mostly staying below?

Except for Suny, You and me. :) the rest of them are staying below~ So We can play bad cop (Azlain), Good Cop (Wil) and Exicted Happy Go lucky person (Suny). ;)

J/K but it is us three versus the Magic shoppe~ This will be most fun! So what are we gonna trade in?

I was thinking the merciful dagger (Which is azlain's) and the jeweled dagger for more appropriate weapons. That should get us some more useful items hopefully.

Wil is just buying a potion of CLW and SoF +2 so thats 100+ gp if they have it and then the rest of his share is up for Upgrades and such.

I will do more number crunching later~

Oh and Suny wanted a Wand of CLW

List-

Wand of CLW - Suny
1x Potion of CLW - Wil
1x Potion of SoF +2 - Wil

Better Weapon - Azlain
Better Weapon - Suny?

Well...a x-bow perhaps?

If'n I din't know better, I be sayin' some one might be tryin' t' buy in't my affections. (^_~)

Jus' jokin'. (^_^)

Much cheers t'every one!

Assuming we get full price for the the dagger that gives Azlain 9,002 gp to upgrade to a better weapon. Not sure what's available though.

If I could get my hands on a Keen Curve Blade I'd be one happy camper.

glad to know Elorin in my absence did a good job. thank you Chainmail, She would of wanted to do her best to continue the good relations, it was important to her.

+1 jeweled dagger- Suny- might help, we can trade it later
Merciful dagger +1- Azlain- magic weapon - Trading

Coinage available for trading:

2600 gold from the jewels~

1244 cp= 12.44 gold *0.03 = 12 gp (7 copper remaining)
560sp*.1 = 56*.03 = 54 gp (3 silver and 2 copper remaining)
870 gp
35 PP(= 350 gold *0.03=) 339 gp amd 5 silver pieces once converted.

Total available for trade is: 3875 GP, 8 SP and 7 copper

split into Eight shares~

484 gold, 1 silver and roughly 1 copper each~

Since Wil is only taking 100gp for himself and the remaining Sp and Copper so it'd be 100 gp 8 sp and 7 cp. :p

The Shares increase to 539 gp each (rounded down)

So:

Suny Has her +1 Jeweled Dagger and 539 gp
Azlain has his +1 Merciful Dagger and 539 gp
Seltyn has 539 Gp
Flamberux has 539 gp
Talon has 539
Elorin has 539
Spider has 539 - Which is being held onto by Wil to be donated to the church.

please double check me but this should be everything we are bringing to the table currently~ If any other items are to be traded at this time then let me know in OOC and I will amend the above listing.

looks like we should just load up on a few curing items and hold onto the items we've found thus far until we find anther loot pile to trade in. =/ Wil is stalling for the most part but he's also feeling like we're receiving the raw end of the deal. Sadly he can't do much about it, as to trade the items in and have them being traced back to us would make the foxes and house Fmelvam look like a bunch of thieves. Which is exactly what we don't need...

So my proposal is like I said above. Replenish our potions, buy a wand of CLW and some alchemist fire and delve a little deeper into this commission because right now we aren't going to be able to afford much until we find more items to turn in.

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Azlain for now you can take the Flaming Bastard Sword +1 and I will hold onto the Merciful dagger +1 in case I need it. The rest of us will hold onto the items we have and we will continue as is. That way Azalin can deal more damage and I can upgrade later.

Azlain if you don't mind pitching in some gold with Suny we can get that wand of CLW and pick up some alchemist fire potions from that magic shoppe.

Wil will buy up his potion of CLW and hold off on the Shield of Faith one until after our next dungeon delving.

*Nods* Sounds good.

Adventure ahoy! (^_^)

I don't want to hold everything up any longer and I am sure Talon will fight me for the chainshirt. lol xD

Lawful good is rough sometimes~

I'm not trying to take over lead of the party but right now this isn't only Wil's decision to make so he will bring it back to everyone and make sure we are moving in the best direction for the group and our national duty as well. Besides there will be more treasure and honestly we don't have to give everything back thankfully just most of the good stuff. :p

Updating sheet to reflect the Merciful dagger in Wil's possession. Keeping Bastard Sword Prof as well. Its not like we can't upgrade Azlain's weapon at a later time and they can exchange weapons again~ ;) Sorry for the flip flopping Azlain. My bad!

No problem. I have 1000 gp worth of various coins. How much does she need?

From the look of it its 750 gp +20%. Its gonna be around 900 gp just for the wand the potions may be another matter entirely. Thanks bud :)

Just tell me how much I need to shell out to make up the difference.

Suny has about 539 gp to spare from her recent shares. so about~ 361 GP to make up the difference. WE'll see what the potions and AF costs later. :)

Yeah I am really not too willing to trade in that chainshirt. Will do it if demanded to or ordered to, but it protects my character and makes him ideal at what I wanted to do with him. To have to hand it back...

Its not an issue till we hit the surface anyway, and Talon has no way to know its technically lost. So just don't mention it for a while

That's why Wil is delaying the inevitable, right now he should technically turn it in. But whats the harm if we finish the job first, turn in the items and claim multiple rewards which are all untaxed bonuses. Besides no one is crying in the street over these items so we can turn them intoday, tomorrow or next week once the commission is through and no harm done.

Granted we're getting hosed in rewards but you've got to look at it this way, its more then what we had before. :p And so long as we gain a bit of gold who cares whether we keep that item or not as we can get it again later.

Spotty net access until Monday. Please NPC Azlain as needed.

So before we return the items I suggest we take the ones we like to the magic shoppe and have the aura's identified and get a price on how much it would be to recreate said items. Like I would like to get an elven curve blade version of my bastard sword for Azlain, then both of us cna be heavier hitters. Or even get his blade enchanted with Ice or silvered. ;)

Then get a copy of the chainshirt that Talon is wearing as well and we all should be good to go.

It'll be costly for sure but whatelse are we gonna spend money on. :p Also if this is too metagamey Chainmail please smack me lol. I planned on bringing this up in IC but I didn't want to make a several day discussion out of it so I thought I'd start it here and we do it again over in IC. :)

Regarding the three Na balls we just encountered:

Pretty sure Talon rolled uncharacteristically high on a perception, as you say Seltyn we have no rogue but you don't have to be a rogue to spot for traps and with a role that high, i would hope something would of been noticed. Sunnys perception wasn't exactly low neither a '21'. traps or not a 21 is a good roll, so if we are coming up against traps and set ups that a 31 and 21 can not spot then i am considering leaving the sewers as it is clearly not designed for a group of level 2/3 adventures. perhaps anther option would be best hehe. thats me the player though, im not sure how elorin will feel after this if she isnt aflame lol.

It was a standard sub CR 4 trap. I am somewhat old school in that rogues do better on traps and are the only ones that can disarm magical traps. I do not penalize other classes on normal traps.

I guess the statement - I am looking for traps - may have too much importance for us old school DMs.

The dwarves have already used up some of their nine lives already. You all have your divine resets. Their drop rate has been less although they have taken more casualties. One of their traps would have killed five PCs dead without their divine reset.

Maybe I should be sticking to the Pathfinder linear AP script.

Anyway, let me think on it. The killer trap the dwarves went through took a couple of days of discussion to handle (and they had a rogue).

Fair enough. No harm in playing it old school, my apologies for complaining about it. Surprised that it is only CR 4 and yet does 6d6 worth of damage. Still, I don't know a lot about trap design, and don't forget we don't actually have a rogue in the party. That stopped being the case when Kalthos dropped out, and when Spider left us. Its one of those things, but still hard work.

Would you like me to roll damage for Talon, or would you prefer to have that honour?

It was a standard sub CR 4 trap. I am somewhat old school in that rogues do better on traps and are the only ones that can disarm magical traps. I do not penalize other classes on normal traps.

I guess the statement - I am looking for traps - may have too much importance for us old school DMs.

Like I said each to there own. Expect to see that sentence more, now you have said. I learn from my mistakes if nothing else hehe. your the DM you run how you run it. The good thing is that you listen when people ask questions and answer them, not just saying 'tough' and getting defensive. It is all good.

So, we are pausing with three five pound sodium balls burning in a confined tunnel. I will ask another GM I know for a second opinion.

It makes sense that he would be looking for the specific statement. ;/ Makes his job easier because when you make a knowledge check your trying to figure *xxxx* out. Not just I roll a K-Engineering...

For What?

Everything! :)

Perhaps will could get trained in disarming traps. Nyar!

That's a pretty amusing statement. To be fair, if a single archetype was allowed, then I would take the trapper archetype for Talon. I have never before used spellcasting with a ranger, so not sure I really want to start down that road again, and all it gives me is the disable device skill and trap sense in exchange for all my spellcasting. Still get to keep my animal companions.

My main concern with archetypes is they devalued the rogue/thief and made the great bard even better.

They add versatility, but it seems to be a fairly balanced system. If people don't want to play a rogue, but still want some of the skill set, then they have the opportunity to do that, but lose some of the more iconic abilities from 3.0 or 3.5.

it's your game, and you haven't allowed us those books, and that's fine. After all, Rule 1 states that its your game, and therefore you have the right to include or exclude material as you see fit.

Well summoners are in the APG. They are probably the largest problem I have with the APG (add the synthesist and the master summoner, it just gets worse).

So you tell people that in your vision of the world, Summoners as a class choice don't exist. Take it or leave it.

Just out of interest, would you mind posting the statblock of the trap on here? I am just thinking if we can see what the blocks were then we can work around it. I was rather looking forward to moving significantly forward with the game, and this hold up kinda sucks.

I also GM a little, and am basically curious as to how others build traps so that I might emulate a little.

I like that trap, although personally would have kept it at the 4d6 level, as that is a little more survivable than 6d6 at our level, even with the breaking it down to 3 saves. Its your call.

Personally I am happy to continue on with the game tonight knowing how it was made now

@Talon: A lot of DM's don't use Summoner, Magus and Gunslinger because of personal reasons. I've played alongside a summoner and can speak for the fact that a summoner can be a power house of damage dealing. aAt 8th level he could fly, breath fire and his eidolin did +3 damage and avoid almost all damage reduction types that we would see at our level. It also did on average between eidolin and summoner about 50-130 damage a round. With the Eidolin dealing most of the damage.

I was playing a SGG Dragonrider class at the time and could deal maybe 30 damage a round as that class as cool as it sounds is grossly devalued by 'Focus'. :p

So I started making my own dragonrider.

Anyway if your good at Min/Maxing a summoner can be a monster for a DM to deal with.

I was also serious about putting something in for trap disarming. Despite my low skills it wouldn't hurt if some of us delved into other skills to be more diverse. Because we won't always be together, all it would take is to seperate the heavy hitters from the skill bots and we'd be hurting quick because of our lack of diverse skills. :(

I don't really mind the old-school flavor of the campaign. I'm a pretty old school player, so I can switch play modes.

It just means a slower and far more cautious playstyle.

One significant hurdle you're going to have to address as a GM is the change to Trapsense. These days anyone can take Disable Device. Rogues only do it slightly better (by RAW).

In the old-school mindset, no rogue meant taking every trap in the face, or doing things in really unorthodox ways. Unless we want to spend a week arguing about what three guys with high strengths and pick-axes can do to the walls of the sewers, we might want to address the trapfinding issue.

If we just can't find traps, let alone disarm them, it would be a really good idea to walk out of here and come back once we have access to higher level "cheat" spells like Find Trap and Passwall.

I agree with you Azlain about the current problem but if we continue with the other part of the quest it probably means we will be leaving the Depot in a hurry. lol

So if we can clear our current hurdle with this trap and push onward we may have a chance to come closer to wrapping up the sewer and moving onto the main event. :)

As I stated before I don't mind taking a disarm trap skill if I have too. I have low SP but i'll do what I have to. I had thought about trading Wil our for a Rogue but then we'd be back to lower Healing rates again so... yeah.

But with the clarification from Chainmail perhaps in the future we will be more cautious in the wording of our actions and be able to avoid traps. WE didn't have to stop at the door, we could have continued down the passage and came to it later. But we tackled the door. So avoidance is also an option we can use since several of us have high perceptions and we should be able to 'spot' the traps.

I have no problem with the trap. I'm just not clear on who was where. 5 lb. sodium bombs shouldn't affect elves that were nowhere near them. That's why I sent the dexiest and most perceptive among us to scout ahead. We're not walking up to doors and saying "Hey, what's that? Let's bunch up and poke at it!"

Most of the party should be a good 40-60' or more from the trap. If the trap envelopes them, too, then fine. We lose a few. That's not unexpected.

I agree with seltyn although those who were closest would have been Suny talons and azlain and then Wil took up position slightly ahead of the doorway so someone kept an eye on the passage so at most 4 of us are caught in the burning trap and from what I saw everyone made at least two of the 3 saves so I don't see anyone dying just yet. :p

Well, we are kind of in what I call a no confidence vote. This is supposed to be fun. If it is not, we have to salvage what we can.

Hmm. I wouldn't look at it like that. Obviously we're all here and wanting to talk. No one's dropping the game. I think we just want to discuss how the game is progressing.

I think the core issue is that we, as players, expect our characters to behave a certain way. We have this vision of who they are and what they're capable of in our heads, and we want everyone, including the GM, to see our characters the way we do.

Rather than assuming that we aren't checking for traps even when perception checks are made at the doors, a simple question like "what exactly are you looking for" might spur further clarification.

I've noticed a few cases in the game that omission of details (on the players part and the gm's) has resulted in a negative impact on the side of the characters. It makes things frustrating. It's indicative of an older style of GMing, as you mentioned, where the GM typically expected the players to out-think them. When I first started playing, the game was far more like an elaborate game of chess than building a house of cards together. There's really nothing wrong with that style, the problem comes when some people are playing Chess and others are trying to build card houses. Without discussing it, things devolve because the people in the group are quite literally playing different games.

All that we need to do here is get everyone playing the same way and we'll be fine.

The only vote im making is that since Suny, Talon, Azlain and

I'm all up for constructive criticism and don't mind being told if i'm doing something wrong or seemingly out of character. As i've stated before if I get metagamey, slap me for petes sake. lol :D

I don't get the old school or new school talk so forgive me, I started back in the 1st edition days like i'm sure a lot of you have. ;) I just play Wil the way I believe he'd react.

When it came to the door he hung back at first. That was until Suny and Talon both went to investigate the door. So then he decided to be proactive and take up a position to basically protect there flank and provide back up if needed. Azlain was there so between a bard, ranger and two fighters what could go wrong?

I didn't assume that anyone followed him and no one said. "Hey! Stay in formation one eye!"

Had they he would have hung back and stayed put. You can always post something after I state i'm going to do this which a few of you have. :)

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As for a no confidence vote I'm not at that point. My DM in another game is exactly the same way in the sense of if your looking at something in particular or searching your K skills for something then indicate it or get a generalized this is what you see roll.

Also thats why you don't see me using my Detect evil at will all the time. Because its a power that's easily abused and not mean't to be active all the time.

They can't read our minds in telling exactly what we want, where we are or how are character is reacting if we don't give them the information they need.

I've been going off of the lawful good alignment for how Wil acts in many ways, but Wil isn't a fool he'd rather use something to their advantage so long as everyone wins in the end. Then, in a more personal sense Wil is working proactively in many cases. He also reacts to things in a more human way compared to elven. He was raised among humans and so he can come across as rash, emotional and gets in the enemies face because that's how the humans he's been with have reacted.

Wow....20 something posts!

Okay, I have comments, but work is pressing me for time, such that all I can add atm is a quick post to show I'm looking/reading.

Quick points:

1) It's the DM's game.

2) Every one should be having fun.

Will be in a position to add a more thoughtful comment in two or three days.

Yes, when My employment gives me work, I work. :P

Much cheers to all.

An' I promise t' be speakin' more proper an' all, t'boot! :P

Well, I have a newer school GM helping me out when he can spend some time to look at this.

I haven't lost confidence at all in chainmail. Old school is fine by me, im relatively new to table top roleplaying but in my short time I have had a few different DM's who all do it in different ways. this is just another way of doing things, not a wrong way.

I take this is a learning curve.

I am still having fun in campaign and I would not of wanted to come back if it wasn't fun last time.

It is more us as players wanting to address the trap thing. We need a trap finder amongst us, or a compromise with Chainmail to say that non rogues can handle traps if they have relevant skills etc. It can be as simple s Wil says, as in putting SP in disable device etc. or just finding a way to handle it thats all.

It hasn't stopped being fun at all. tbh a surprise trap every now and then keeps us on our toes. It is just we need to be sure we aren't going to be guaranteed to get hit by every trap thats all.

I have never given a vote of no confidence. The game has generally been really good, and most of the wrinkles had I believe been worked out. I did not mean to imply a vote of no confidence. My curiosity with the stat block of the trap was just that, a curiosity. Every GM will do things slightly differently, and as of right now, I don't think there is anyone who actually wants to drop the game, and therefore we are doing fine.

The biggest issue we have right now is that you (Chainmail) and some of the rest of the players thought that we were in different positions than we actually thought we were. Therefore we have a mismatch.

I knew personally that Azlain, Suny, Talon and Wil were in danger from the trap. My understanding was that Seltyn and Elorin had possibly closed up a little, but not so much that they would have been in danger.

PBP games are always more difficult. The problems of having to be more visual in your descriptions and so on do mean that there is room for misinterpretations.

The only point of contention that we had right now Chainmail was the trap. We didn't have a rogue, and therefore are likely to get rather beaten up by traps.

We can address this is multiple ways. For example, if the game develops to being more than just core rulebook, then Talon can take the trapper archetype. Then we have not only a kick ass archer, but a trap finder also. As the GM, if there are any builds that you personally don't like Chainmail, then they can always be vetoed, even if they include expanded material.

Another way to do it is to diversify the skills that we as characters take. It will give a more well rounded set of characters, and that would indeed only be to our benefit. Without expanding the materials allowed into the game, that seems to be the best way forward.

Chainmail, you are the GM. This game has been running for long enough that we should have understood your playstyle, and you ours. Its the first time I think that we have come across a trap, and with seeing how much damage this thing can do, we panicked a little, especially when you ask for everyone to take reflex saves despite the spacing that we thought we had made clear to each other and to you.

If I might suggest how to go forward?

Talon, Suny, Wil and Azlain need to take the saves. If you had a vision of Flambeaux being close then she also needs to. Elorin and Seltyn had deliberately hung back, and so perhaps don't need to take them. That is still your call.

Then we deal with the consequences and get on with the game again.

There is also a HUGE problem with us as a set of players. The elves are meant to be smart and canny fighters. We haven't really been playing it as such. Blundering into fights, acting without thinking and not acting with a shred of tactical knowledge. Until for example Talon can get precise shot, then I need clear lines of sight to what I am attacking. I don't expext to get it every time, but it would be damned useful more often than not.

We are all over 100 years old I believe, and therefore some shred of tactics should be obvious. Lets bloody play it so.

I don't want the game to devolve into tactical minature fighting, thats what games such as Warhammer 40k and the like are for. But we can do better than what we have been doing. We all know this, and if you look back, this is not a new line of complaint for Talon or for me. There is an element of "I am doing what my character would do", but in a combat situation such as that which we find ourselves in, then I think I speak for us all when I say that you would listen to someone who seems to be able to figure out what the hell the best course of action is.

Anyway, this is my rant over. Lets get back to playing the game. My personal first action will be to roll the damage that the trap has inflicted upon Talon and go from there.

As for the whole new school, old school thing, I don't buy into it. There is simply the game and how we play it.

Well, some claim there is no way it could propagate very far and should be unaffected. I am waiting for another opinion on whether or not the abstraction of making the trap affect the entire corridor is fair. So let us say we are calling the replay official on this.

I put a dwarf issue to vote on the forums, and the dwarves came out somewhat vindicated.

My real world understanding of what three five pound balls of sodium do in water is something I am trying to keep at a distance. Dropping one five pound brick of sodium in water in college was the inspiration for this trap.

My first independent opinion suggested to make a map and make sure that there is an immediate creature encounter after the trap so that those down the corridor are penalyzed. He claimed when a map is drawn after the extent of the trap is known, no one tends to be in the area of effect.

My first independent opinion suggested to make a map and make sure that there is an immediate creature encounter after the trap so that those down the corridor are penalyzed. He claimed when a map is drawn after the extent of the trap is known, no one tends to be in the area of effect.

The independent has a point, however i will say in this case, we all stated where we where before the trap was triggered or even mentioned and well before Seltyn asked where every one was, so in this case we cant avoid the trap post trigger. so the 'encounter' would be overkill in this case. (unless there was going to be an encounter anyway regardless of outcome of trap) we cant cheat this one and I know I don't cheat, as previous to this game, I am often the rogue, bit hard to not be in the area of effect when your the one that triggers it lol.

Okay..about the trap in general and the potential fall out from it?

I'm fine.

I have been having a blast in the game and hope my character has been entertaining for others as well.

I think DM Chainmail is doing a bang up job as DM and every one is posting at a great rate and keeping things moving along smartly.

The issue, perhaps, is that,

1) We have no player character Rogue.

2) Hence traps are a potential TPK in the game.

Suny isn't a Rogue, has said/implied she's not a Rogue and will probably die not being a Rogue. :P

So....come what may, the fall out of this encounter will be...interesting...

Judging by what's happened to Talon? That this also happens to Suny? Yah...she be a LOT browner and crispy after this. :(

So...what can we create to replace such losses? Or are we just out, sort of thing?

Okay reference to college is awesome. :) I'm not that adventorous and the only thing I've really done is upto college level, but I however did get into a lot of fights. I usually started the fights, except one, but I sure finished them lol.

So i'm guessing chainmail was a chemist! :O We are totally hosed as his traps aren't just creative but have real world back up, as I said before Friggen Awesome!

As I've said before Wil is more human in his nature and tactics as he has served with Humans longer then elves, he has patience in social situations but in combat he knows does what he believe is best. He can take and cure damage quicker then most and will stand his ground staunchly. Granted he should have retreated from the Rat Queen but that could have had mixed results. :/

Honestly though this entire sewer fight has been a fun and new learning experience for me as I haven't dealt with difficult terrain in a long LONG time! Looking forward to continuing forward boss man. :)

@Azlain Lets hope we find some decent treasure and get you that elven sword made, as much as I'd like to use the bastard sword you hit harder then I do and I prove to be a decent meat shield at this point lol! I should have arrayed my stats better but I've always sucked at Point buy. >.<;

BTW i'm looking forward to the climax of the sewer fighting and pray desperately not to get eaten!