You would not like my reasoning that I used to pick. It was somewhat arbitrary.Can't help but notice that two of the three most optimized characters were left out, and everyone picked had all least 9th level spells.
Mine doesn't.
You would not like my reasoning that I used to pick. It was somewhat arbitrary.Can't help but notice that two of the three most optimized characters were left out, and everyone picked had all least 9th level spells.
I'm actually curious to know which characters you thought were most optimized?
I'm actually curious to know which characters you thought were most optimized?You would not like my reasoning that I used to pick. It was somewhat arbitrary.Can't help but notice that two of the three most optimized characters were left out, and everyone picked had all least 9th level spells.
Venatorix is the strongest that got into the game, and most complete 20th level character. Good offense, defenses across the board including the very important SR and DR, along with casting. Temeraire and Naariruel were the strongest left out, with both very strong, but incomplete from an optimization perspective at this level. Both could be easily overcome by even a handful of mid-cr enemies, but can also blow up high level foes. A few minor adjustments would put them very close to Veratorix, though I'd still rather have undead immunities.
After those three there is a sizable drop off. Iron Orchids character might be 4th.
Several characters appear unfinished, or break rules (Ozil for instance is way over wealth).
Of course, keep in mind that my comments assume the Gm has substantial experience, knows how high levels play out, is running a game with continuity, etc.
Hm, okay.
Uh oh .... taking your word for it (I obviously didn't pay enough attention.) I just axed $200K gp from my PC. Tonight when I get home from work I'll take an accounting and see if I need to do more.
Eh, I know mine breaks at least one rule which I discovered later (stupid Green Warden template) which I worked out with the GM. If not I would have done as jokingly suggested and paid the money to get that Wish spell.
My goal wasn't necessarily optimization so much as putting a puzzle together. At this level so much stuff becomes either "yes or no" that the math is so much easier if we played a mid level game of Exalted.
Uh oh .... taking your word for it (I obviously didn't pay enough attention.) I just axed $200K gp from my PC. Tonight when I get home from work I'll take an accounting and see if I need to do more.
Still way over 880k.
Headband - 144k
Belt - 144k
+5 tome - 137.5k
+4 tome x4 - 440k
+8 bracers - 64k
+3 amulet - 18k
+5 ring - 50k
dusty rose ioun - 5k
+5 cloak - 25k
glove of storing - 10k
portable hole - 20k
rod of greater quicken - 170k
rod of quicken - 75k
fireball CL 10 - 22.5k
lightning bolt CL 10 -22.5k
dispel CL 20 - 45k
cure critical CL 20 - 60k
monk's robe 13k
Total 1.442,500
And that doesn't include costs for your spellbook.
As an aside though, it doesn't really matter,, and were I the GM I'd let it ride. Azir is noticeably weaker than most of the PCs in the game.
Hm, okay.
Worth noting, I'm simply answering a question. I don't personally think that there's a particular merit to optimization beyond T2 optimization, and in fact tend to find it damaging to gameplay and the community at large. Don't read anything into my commentary on who is strong, weak, etc.
That said, it does look like a lot of the players here don't actually have that much experience with higher level modules, or have relatively inexperienced GMs running them, based on some of the build choices.
Remember that people who who have 3/4 spellcasting got 150% WBL and those with 1/2 spellcasting or purely martial got 200%
Remember that people who who have 3/4 spellcasting got 150% WBL and those with 1/2 spellcasting or purely martial got 200%
Yeah, and he's a wizard. Anyway, I'd give him everything he has, and even let him throw the ring of three wishes back on. As I said, he's among the weaker characters posted, with a gestalt that does almost nothing for him.
Hm, okay.Worth noting, I'm simply answering a question. I don't personally think that there's a particular merit to optimization beyond T2 optimization, and in fact tend to find it damaging to gameplay and the community at large. Don't read anything into my commentary on who is strong, weak, etc.
That said, it does look like a lot of the players here don't actually have that much experience with higher level modules, or have relatively inexperienced GMs running them, based on some of the build choices.
I doubt there are many who could claim to be experienced at high level gestalt. I'm the only GM I know that actually runs it at a table and I'm only just now figuring what challenges my particular group.
I was simply curious myself already knowing I didn't go as far as I could. I didn't even want templates and only grabbed the one I have because it sounds cool. In my mind being able to chuck about a hundred or so d8's(or d6's by the looks of the faq) on the table every time I pounced was more than enough. After that it's just a question of making it happen.
I'm in 9 games another would have been cool as 3 or 4 died over break. I'm in one with TarkXT (you need to post for Rory...) I am curious of how you selected. It won't hurt my feelings. I assumed Naar wasn't because he pushed the cap. I mean I didn't look at others after the first couple but what did peoples end AC end up at? I could have been in the 80's so and all my saves were in the mid 30's and 40's. I am curious to what you think could have overwhelmed me Peter as far as multiple CR's. The bladewind can target all within 30', I mean it is short range but it is how I would defeat armies. Moving through the ranks killing them.
I mean I'm disappointed but there will be more recruitment's :) Keep me in mind if someone drops. I do post 10 times a day or more. This is the only thing I see the game may have a problem with.
I am curious to what you think could have overwhelmed me Peter as far as multiple CR's. The bladewind can target all within 30', I mean it is short range but it is how I would defeat armies. Moving through the ranks killing them.
As a start, anything with the ability to spam holy smite / unholy blight (depending on alignment) and decent mobility. Erinyes jump to mind if you were good. Lack of SR is a liability at this level, even if it is only like SR 25. I know many players feel SR is a liability itself, but only if your casters can't breach it pretty easily. It's mostly there to protect you against the minion swarm raining save / half spells on you that there isn't an easy "resist X" spell for.
Given that it's a planar based game, hordes of weak outsiders would be my first big concern.
That said, it does look like a lot of the players here don't actually have that much experience with higher level modules, or have relatively inexperienced GMs running them, based on some of the build choices.
@Peter: Not so, your view of PC building seems to be "rules out" I did that when I was a lot younger player, always seeking some idea of a RPG "War game Win", then as you get older as a player, putting the time in playing a lot of games and scenarios. You mature as a player, crafting rules Maxed PCs falls away and in its place comes the idea of crafting a PC you wish to play, a Bespoke and intriguing PC. One that has its own personality, feelings, goals, objectives, fables and perspectives of the world it inhabits. A PC you can 'Feel' when you 'Roll play'. Players who build like this work from an idea out to background and Description to rules, hoping to craft a PC that feels great to play.
Remember its called 'Roll Play' not 'Rules play' if the game was all about getting a Maxed PC, then 'Rules play' would be its name.
I always agree with the view that 'flavor' not 'crunch' is where the PC lives.
And here is a tip, at level 20+ Epic, you ant going win nothing the GM don't want you to win, so by the gods you best have a PC he/she wants to keep around because it's Interesting as a Character, not rules Maxed as a PC Sheet.
;)
I see, enough damage a round would do it. Even making the save is the spell net's 5 damage then 100 of them at once would do it. Fair enough assessment.
I see, enough damage a round would do it. Even making the save is the spell net's 5 damage then 100 of them at once would do it. Fair enough assessment.
Or less than that, but just hard to hit more than one. Magic missile is another annoying one. Fought a wizards guild that gave wands and scrolls of magic missile to all apprentices and sent them to soften us up. That was at like 15th level. We had an epic game in 3.5 in which the gm had a dozen pit fiends burn wishes on orbs of force, iirc. Very nasty, since I don't think even SR helped against it.
At some point around 20, defenses are less about stonewalling bosses, and more about preventing the minions from drowning you. People laugh at the robe of the archmagis spell resistance, but it has a purpose.
@Peter: might I ask what you mean by "most complete 20th level character"?
Also, I'm actually kinda proud that you like him, I wasn't sure if I'd stack up against some of the others I've seen around here. (No offense of course, I just use others' builds as a power level check for mine, and I was worried for a bit.)
The aforementioned sr is why i m rather fond of diamond soul/ki volley. It's a liability even if it can be penetrated easily however having an option to turn it on when it matters and be able to freely smash people in return is handy.
@Peter: might I ask what you mean by "most complete 20th level character"?
Also, I'm actually kinda proud that you like him, I wasn't sure if I'd stack up against some of the others I've seen around here. (No offense of course, I just use others' builds as a power level check for mine, and I was worried for a bit.)
Mechanically, he's got top notch senses combined with good initiative with protects him from getting blown up in a surprise round / low init combo. Auras are also a good passive contribution.
Defenses are good across the board, and include possible touch AC, spell resistance, good saves, and an array of strong immunities.
Melee is very strong, especially with smite available many times a day and the ability to move and full attack if needed. Cleric casting and buffs work with the melee focus, letting you use it to respond without undercutting melee like arcane casting. Oracle in particular is a good choice because of spontaneous quickened spells. Miracle is a good get out of jail card.
Solid volume on abilities as well. Good staying power not reliant on nova combos. Good options against both strong and weak encounters. Minions. Etc.
Skills are weak, but excusable. Overall he doesn't have a glaring weak spot like most here that I look at and say "this is how you beat him". Good balance of offense and defense. And actually themed, rather than thrown together for giggles. Often to achieve a similar result I see people with a bunch of dips. One of the more complete higher optimization characters I've seen of late that doesn't fall into most of the nonsense character optimization traps that most do. Plus the flavor continuity and lack of dips is appealing.
There are some little changes you could make, but overall 9/10 on the non-cheese optimization scale. High tier 3 that can play with tier 4.
Not being funny guys
but I think the GM may take a dim view of us making his recurrent thread into a
'Killer builds for level 20 PCs' Thread.
we could make a thread in Gaming
Not being funny guys
but I think the GM may take a dim view of us making his recurrent thread into a'Killer builds for level 20 PCs' Thread.
we could make a thread in Gaming
If he says something, and others wish to continue, I'd be happy to move discussion elsewhere (pm me a link).
Oh, wow. I really appreciate the feedback!
As to dips/crazy stuff, I really wanted to keep things to the rather specific theme that I had created, and was worried that not throwing on Advanced+some other +1 undead template instead of Graveknight could have been a problem, but I wanted it too bad. The 1 level into cleric was mainly for the channel damage (as Signifer stacks for damage to chaotic outsiders), free resistance bonus to saves and quick (undead horde benefitting) defensive aura from Defense, and the nifty flavor/usefulness of Tactics.
@spells: do you see any spell choices that don't make sense, or ones I could take instead to fill gaps? I went, again, with a mostly flavor-fueled spell list (combat monster), with a few outliers (namely, Miracle). Any advice there would be well-appreciated.
Edit: Peter, care to PM me those changes? Not sure I'll use all of them, but if there's something glaringly obvious that I missed, I'd like to know.
Late tonight if I have a chance. One error I notice though - ring of revelation requires you own the appropriate mystery.
Ah! I'm supposed to be using UMD to emulate a class feature.
Will have to switch some skill points around to make that possible.
Ah! I'm supposed to be using UMD to emulate a class feature.
Will have to switch some skill points around to make that possible.
Mhm. The exact legality of that is up to interpretation. I'm pretty sure they ruled UMD can't let you fake class feature and class at the same time with such rings, but I don't recall if they specifically spoke to actual Oracle's using them for other revelations.
It's an interesting potential loophole though- and not I think too offensive. Paizo through has been closing a great many in that range of late (Oracle arcane eldritch heritage for instance).
In a game like this one, however, I was pretty sure that it'd be fine.
Granted, I didn't actually ask, and I probably should have, now that I think about it.
It's not like I'm using it to get an animal companion (from Nature), so it's a relatively minor abuse. (And even with the animal companion, your class level for it is equal to your roll -20, which would be pretty low for me, as I'm only planning on getting it to +20. Having a lower level companion, possibly even a 1st level one, would just be crippling here.)
But with a total drop in AC of -13, I'd have to completely rebuild my character.
And, in assuming that the GM did, in fact, look over my character sheet and saw the ring, and didn't mention it.
So I'll keep it, until he says that I need to change it.
In a game like this one, however, I was pretty sure that it'd be fine.
Granted, I didn't actually ask, and I probably should have, now that I think about it.
It's not like I'm using it to get an animal companion (from Nature), so it's a relatively minor abuse. (And even with the animal companion, your class level for it is equal to your roll -20, which would be pretty low for me, as I'm only planning on getting it to +20. Having a lower level companion, possibly even a 1st level one, would just be crippling here.)But with a total drop in AC of -13, I'd have to completely rebuild my character.
And, in assuming that the GM did, in fact, look over my character sheet and saw the ring, and didn't mention it.So I'll keep it, until he says that I need to change it.
As I said, I don't think it is a particularly abusive use of the item, and would probably allow it.
Their is no way I can look over everyone's sheet in detail. Sort of working on the honor system.
You need to change the ring.
Just to point out here, his use of the ring does not go against JJs comments, as I pointed out above. He is an Oracle, and is bluffing revelation, not Oracle class. Completely within both spirit and letter of the rule as JJ explained it.
That's actually the exact argument I'm making as well.
I already am an oracle, with the mystery class feature. The class feature I am emulating is the Lore mystery, order to qualify for the Sidestep Secret revelation.
I would like you to consider the rules here, as well as the power level of this game, and the obvious impact on my character that would take quite a bit of adjustment to be able to stand up to the level of power being thrown around.
all right.
all right.
Okay, whew.
I was freaking out a bit, but it's all good now.Anyway, moving on.
Hey, guys! Ven here.
So, it seems our DM got himself into a bit more than he could handle, as he seems to have gone too far above his power level (not a problem, some people just like it simpler).
Now, while this is good and all for him, we have some 20th level badasses that we don't quite want to go to waste.
I, myself, think Ven is the best concept I've ever come up with, flavor and crunch wise.
That's a lot to give up on easily.
The point is, our lovely gang of godkillers is looking for a new DM to take the reigns, and throw some truly epic monsters, NPCs, and plot lines at us.
Requirements: (loosely)
-Have a somewhat complete knowledge of the game at gestalt 20th level. It's pretty powerful, bring your A-game monsters.
-Let the builds stay as is. I'm sure none of us want to give up much over our original builds. I know taking away my Graveknight template would pretty much be a lot of no-fun.
-Be committed to running this. We really are very interested in this game, and I'm sure you can check our posting history for how active we are. All we ask is you return the favor!
Thanks for reading!
Ven'atorix, the Frozen Tyrant.
Hey I like all of your characters! I might be interested in helping you guys out with some stipulation.
Reading the massive discussion both in game and in disscussion thread, I have to say, you all seem to be getting ahead of yourselves. Even a gestalt templated 20th level party is no match for even one of the core deities.
If I do this, you will definitely be plane hopping and fighting powerful outsiders and divine forces. But the actual story would probably end up with each God having specific artifacts or conditions one must recover/meet to even weaken the God to the point of being able to "fight" it.
Because banter all we want in my mind it comes to this.
All of your individual power is based on a system that they created. You are fighting them within the Matrix if you get my drift.
Well, the main plan was "Undermine authority ----> Weaken Power -----> ??? ----> Starstone, maybe? -----> Confront directly".
We were working on the "Gods need prayer, badly" cosmology.
However I think we all agreed a more straightforward game wuld be more fun. More fighting, more exploring, somewhat less intrigue.
I mean if you guys seriously want to fight a God right out of the gate, I'd start with a weak one...
But seriously I would prefer to go through another 10-15 levels and 10 mythic ranks before I consider you guys contenders at all.
Not a god, since gods aren't statted (so for logistical reasons you would need to CREATE stats which would take a while, and for plot reasons they're just THAT STRONG).
Demigod, maybe. Demigods are CR 30 (see: Achaekek).
Artifacts or some such way to get on their level/weaken them sounds really cool.
Not a god, since gods aren't statted (so for logistical reasons you would need to CREATE stats which would take a while, and for plot reasons they're just THAT STRONG).
Demigod, maybe. Demigods are CR 30 (see: Achaekek).
As soon as I started this I checked out the stats of Achaekek as well as Orcus, and started building Asmodeus. Yes it will take awhile, but this is Pbp and like I said, it will take some time for you all to even be a threat.
So far Ol'Asmo is a 80th Level Gestalt with custom template, a custom class, and Divine powers from 3.5.
(I'm in no way close to being done but if I had to eyeball it I'd say he's sitting at about CR 105. I'll have to make it more reasonable but I already have a plot line for weakening and killing him lol.
We knew that we couldn't face a god yet -- that's why we came up with the idea to try to work under the radar for as long as we could, undermining the gods' source of power: Souls-Alignment.
We figured if we started small, picking one Alignment and god first, and just tried to "corrupt" the god's followers, church by church, to a "new religion," we could start to weaken that god. And if we blame it on another god, we could start a war between the two of them.
.
WHO WE CHOSE FIRST: (I think we can easily change this if you want.)
We chose NE to start with, the Horseman Szuriel, and would try to blame it on an Abyssal Lord, Abraxas. We were going to go to some Cults of Szuriel and try to sway them away from Szuriel, to our religion, killing the ones who do not accept the new religion -- and preventing their Souls from reaching Abaddon, revealling what we're doing. Thus we can get into some pretty big combats early on against the high priests and BIG monster leaders of Szuriel's cults. And we have a good mix of rolelay & rollplay.
.
OUR SALES-PITCH FOR A "NEW RELIGION":
When you die your mortal soul goes to a predetermined Outer Plane based on your Alignment and you not only have to start out at the bottom of the "ladder" with little possibility of advancement, but worse, you lose your personality, your memories, your goals & dreams, your allies, etc.
Join us and when you die you will be Reincarnated back here in the Material Plane you know with your memories, your personality, your goals, etc. in tact! Keep you moral Alignment and personality -- we're not trying to change YOU, we're trying to change what happens to you when you die.
.
WHAT WE HAVE TO DO (THINK WE HAVE TO DO) FOR THIS TO WORK:
-Keep a low profile regarding the gods
-"Corrupt" as many people as we can with our "Religion"
-Kill the ones we can't "corrupt" and TRAP THEIR SOULS
-Figure out a way to get a Soul to be Reincarnated upon death, memories in tact, instead of going to an Outer Plane!
(That last one is the BIGGIE)
Of course the main problems were:
A.) PG DM didn't know how to handle all that.
and
B.) Some of us found it boring or hard to contribute to this plot.
So which of you are still interested in this do you think?
And I have some Ideas based on Ozil post so thanks for that recap Ozil!
If we were to find a few cultists of Szuriel, the leaders, and have a chance to turn some and be forced to fight the others, I think it could work.
And get us started.
Another option was we start with the Test of the Starstone.
The advantage is that, once we finish, we could challenge a god. We could set up our own slice of pie in The Outer Planes and defend it from other gods and use it as a power base to fight other gods. (hopefully one at a time)
The disadvantage (and why I voted against it, fun as it sounds) is that, at the moment we finish, EVERY god is going to know exactly who and what we are. And they'll know exactly what our plans are. (The Starstone Cathedral is in the middle of The Ascendant Court and every friggin god is going to have an eye on who comes out; I mean, wouldn't you keep an eye on it -- you know that's where future rivals WILL come from!)
But if we could find a way to sneak in there and, more to the point, sneak out, so that we have the Power but not the spotlight, it could be a good start.
Or, you know, f@~# it. Let's HAVE the spotlight. And then we can claw and bite and scratch for every shred of influence we can grab.
Even if the gods smite us immediately after, it will still have been a fun adventure anyway. Between the traps and dungeon that lay before us before we even GET to the Starstone, and the test afterwards, that's a good long adventure already.
I'm definitely in this for the long run.
Basically, any plan is going to need fighting, which is what Ven is for.
So, I say bring it on. I'm ready to fight just about anything. Plus, ya know, mythic tiers would be fun.
As to the Starstone, I think it's an option, but not right away. Going through the beginning stages of whatever we decide to do before we head over to the Cathedral will be plenty of epic adventure, and maybe even enough to satisfy your urge to go through however many levels or tiers you want us to get before I can punch a god in the face. With my sword.
Whatever works.
My fav is the Heavy intrigue-talking-planning thing; that's just my shtick. But as long as there's some roleplay and planning & talking I'm happy.
(Let's give the new DM a chance to digest all this, come up with some thoughts, and then get his input, too)
....The only plan that I'm squeamish about is the "free Rovagug" plan and let-him-do-all-the-work-(or distract the gods)-for-us Plan. But it's still got some viable & playable parts.
I dropped but if it go's this way Bane88 I would like to play, IF the other players and your self are happy to let me.
I would change my PC to fit better with the groups idea of what the game is about. My PC back story Tech stuff etc.
[by the way your idea of how this will work is much much better than mine.]
I dropped but if it go's this way Bane88 I would like to play,
but I would strip out from my PC the Tech side as that was not liked.[by the way your idea of how this will work is much better than mine.
JP if you want to rework your character, build or fluff, go for it using the original build rules, I know how much you love Psionics so keep that if you want. But I will probably stick to a more "traditional" adventuring format, just on the most epic of scales!
"Nothing is at stake you say? Then I will put THE WORLD at Stake!"