Anybody who wants to be eaten by undead say yea. All opposed, say nay.
Abstaining counts as a yea.
TWO skeletons?! *faints*
Please delete your post in Gameplay. It'll keep the dot but remove the clutter.
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And the plot thickens....
Checking in!
When did you guys level last, do you recall? Due to the hiatus/move and the weird way you guys went through this part of the AP (you sequence broke a bit, and some things played out different due to other choices) I'm not sure when you last leveled and when you should next.
Never fear, someone with access to the original thread is here!
We leveled up in June, right before we came to Caliphas.
Cool. Go ahead and level before we do the Abbey then. Good time for it.
Are we level 12?
I leveled Osric to 12. Are there any specific spells anybody would like him to prep?
Are we level 12?
Yes.
If we are facing a vampire, protection from evil, communal or death ward would be great.
Is there an undead version of Hold Monster? Something to keep Radvir immobile while we put the chains on him? I'm sure Sledge can out-grapple him, but a little insurance wouldn't hurt.
Also, next time we go shopping, I think I should buy something for using Detect Magic at will. A Divination Cloak of the Hedge Wizard seems cool.
Aside a mesmerist, undead bloodline sorcerer or a dirge bard who can affect undead with their hold monster spell, there is the halt undead spell.
Okay. Osric has two Death Wards, although there's a lot of competition for 4th level slots. He has Magic Circle Against Evil. And spells to handle a few other tricks that Radvir might try. He doesn't get Halt Undead, but his Sunbeam SLA can blind undead.
I can give out two more Death Wards, so that'll cover everyone. I can also use Echolocation to get 40-ft blindsight.
Sunbeam sounds perfect.
We may need to tweak Wind Strike. I'll let it stand for this combat (I don't like changing things mid-combat) but having a no-save multi-target stun that only like 3 creatures in the game are immune to, for barely any cost, as a Swift action, that ALSO gives you a hefty bonus to-hit is...a bit much. It should have a save AT LEAST, I'm not precisely sure why they decided not to give it one.
The Marksman has a bunch of weird, wonky s@*@ that's not apparent in any of the other Psionic classes I've used and it bothers me.
I did not expect wind strike to be multi-target until you point it out and upon re-reading the entry. I thought that the power affect only single target. Guess I was wrong. If multi-target stun is a problem, wouldn't restricting it to only one target stun make it less OP? With that change, you will have to use the power sparingly as you will run out of PP very fast. Multiple mobs in an encounter as outlined in the Zone's first battle back at giantitp or constant assaults on the party are other glaring weaknesses; the former making you choose between targets and the latter draining your PP fast.
No save stun is still pretty nuts, even if single target, particularly for a 2nd level spell. I don't buy you running out of PP any time soon. You have a max PP of 54 and 15 uses of Wind Reader. You could use up all 15 uses and STILL have 9 PP left with a fairly limited range of versatility anyway. I'll offer you two options:
1.) It becomes a Standard action Fort save power that grants a free melee attack with a ranged weapon when cast (for what it's worth, we can say it's an Attack Action specifically so it'd be compatible with Vital Strike and similar, though still incompatible with Fury). This puts it in line with other Psionic save or suck powers of the same level, like Brain Lock. In compensation, it can be Augmented to grant an extra 1d6 damage per PP spent. Every 2 PP spent in that manner also raises the save DC by 1. It no longer costs a use of Wind Reader.
2.) It stays a Swift, gives a Fort save, but only affects the first attack made (whether it hits or not).
Argue others if you want, but those are the main ones I can think of that seem fair.
If you give it a Fort save, would it affect undead?
I would have been fine with your nerfs and inclined to #2 if wind strike affect undead (undeads are immune to fort saves unless that is your intent to make this power an exception) & have a moderate chance of affecting them (DC is too low due to his crap score; needs a boost). As it is now, it is too weak; having 0% chance to make our enemies fail their saves since most of them can get past DC 14 with ease at this level. The hard nerf is too unfair and the power will be unsatisfying to use for me.
DC 14 is quite low, yes, but that is because this is a low level power and you have invested zero into boosting your save DCs. That is not a problem with the power/spell, but a result of your character build. The same problem would be present if you were a Bloodrager with 14 Cha casting Hold Person, and that's not the fault of the spell.
However, that is also why I added on the Augmentation to one of them, to mitigate this problem by basically allowing the power to be Heightened.
As for it affecting undead, it might be better to just make it a Reflex save instead of Fort in either case to sidestep the issue of adding another clause that makes it capable of doing that.
Finally, if you decide this still makes it unsatisfying to use (which I get) you can swap it out for free to another power you currently qualify for (as if you Retrained the power).
I'll be on vacation until Thursday. Won't be able to post as often. Feel free to bot Jones if things are going too slowly.
I think I will not swap the power and keep it for a long time. There is a reason why I am selective with my powers. I thought the goal is to tweak the power to make it balanced and fair for game purposes. Not to nerf it to the point where it is negligible or want it gone because it is disrupting the game which I have been getting the impression of/implied from your previous posts.
I would be happy to compromise if the power has 50%-60% chance of working instead of making it obsolete. But if the problems with the power was as you outlined is a) abuseable due to low PP cost and availability of the class feature b) daze is too reliable c) multi-target then a cost adjustment has to me made.
Here are my suggestions; 1) make the power single target, have the save you proposed and augmentable (1 PP per DC) 2) power has no save but only single target, costs 3 wind reader per use. For both options, if the damage component is bothering you, make the power standard action, delivering the effect upon hit success, activating wind reader's bonus but dealing no damage.
Both options will be pricey on activation, heavily restricted by their respective sources. If it requires two sources, as long as one of the sources is depleted and unavailable, the power cannot be used, no? And my character will now have to choose between dealing damage without the effect and dealing the effect without damage. Sounds fairer?
The problem isn't the damage at all. No save daze is a ridiculous ability in and of itself. The only vague equivalent I can think of is Power Word: Stun...an 8th level spell that is WEAKER than Wind Strike as written. Having no save for an effect like that is too good at any cost at the level of Power it's set at. Perhaps if it WAS an 8th level power (and took a Standard).
As for it having a 50-60% chance of success...I see no reason a 2nd level spell should have that level of success as the assumption at this level without heavy investment, is the thing. Even so, currently the DC is 14 (if it were a Reflex save that would a be a 50% chance of success against this specific enemy, because unsurprisingly big creatures have poor Ref saves). If you pumped your Wis a bit higher that chance would increase by 5% per 2 Wis. If you Augmented it to the max, that would be +8d6 damage and a boost to a DC 18, meaning this creature needs a 14 to save. This math holds roughly true for every creature size Huge and above (and isn't much different for Large), meaning it works reliably against large targets.
It works less reliably on people with class levels in a class with a good Reflex save or monster types that are similar (like Undead and Magical Beasts)...but that's because it's a 2nd level power used by a character with zero investment in save DC.
Nerfing it to be fair means nerfing it to the point that it fits in with the expected power of other, similar options in the same range unless all the other options are UNDERpowered. Which the general Psionics balance makes untrue.
I understand that I am taking this from a dominant option for the slot to one that is underwhelming at this level, but it would still remain a good option un-Augmented for a 7th level Marksman, which is kinda the point. Psionics scales by increased cost, primarily. You can choose to eat the extra cost to make your power more competitive at later levels (equivalent in save DC to a 6th level spell), or not.
Third option after sussing all that out:
3.) Remains Swift action, grants Reflex save, increase save DC by +1 per 2 PP spent, single target only. Considering another scaling cost of a separate 2 PP per additional target.
Hmm, I can only find one spell close to this level that has a daze in 3.5 but with saves. I will go along with the change provided you allow me to the option to retrain (feats, powers, attributes redistribution and item reselection).
Sure. I'm pretty lenient on retraining already, particularly so soon after a new character is introduced. There's always kinks to work out.
How would you like to adjudicate Divine Interference?
My inclination would be to use it when an enemy with a x3 or x4 weapon threatens a crit. I think I need to tell you after the attack roll and before the confirmation roll, unless I have specified the conditions already.
Since I roll attacks and confirmations in the same post, and results likewise, for ease of use I'll adjudicate it like other reroll abilities and say you can just force a reroll for whatever, even after the results are revealed.
We can also assume you force a re-roll on any x3 or x4 weapon automatically, sidestepping the issue there just like I do with Sledge's Snake Style and his prestated inclination to do that with attacks that have nasty riders (like Vampire slams).
I'm confused at your surprise, given this is what you used to do and was even how I was asking you to roll the damage over on GiTP, and was how all the examples I used of how I was trying to suss out why the ability works the way it does were worded. I even doublechecked that thread to make sure I wasn't wrong.
My bad for letting it ride on a couple of uses, but sometimes I forget things.
It's not like it's a nerf, in any case. It just averages the damage for each use of the ability. In some cases you will have lower (instead of getting a flat +24 damage whenever you roll a 6) and sometimes higher (rather than a flat +4 damage whenever you roll a 1).
I didn't even notice. Yeah, you should had notify me at that forum back then. I do admit that it was rather convenient never needing to crowd the post with a flurry of rolls not to mention faster posting.
The main reason I didn't tell you to do it on GiTP was that you were already doing it that way; The first few times you used Fury you rolled all the dice separately instead of a single d6+mods. Sometime between the first time you used it and us moving over here, you changed it, and I either didn't notice or forgot to mention anything. We haven't had very many combats in this thread yet, overall.
It's also not really that much more space, I just need you to roll 4d6 at the bottom and I'll put it together with the modifiers and such-like.
Has Paizo been automatically singing y'all out? Is there a way to prevent that? Every time I check my campaigns page it doesn't tell me if there are new posts because I've been signed out.
Yep. Now I just assume I'm signed out by default.
I think they fixed it, it hasn't happened since about this time yesterday for me.
ugh still happening
Quick question: Are you guys actually planning to uphold your end of the bargain and let Radvir go free, or are you just going to screw him over?
If the latter, I need Bluff checks from Jones and anyone else who intends to betray AND ALSO is speaking to Radvir. If you're keeping your silence and intend to broach the subject after he's given you the information or something, no need.
Sledge probably neither knows nor cares. He's just gonna follow the leads of the people who know what's going on.
Jones is planning to keep his word.
Zone is bad at bluffing. He'll leave that decision to Jones. Anyways, is Hetna in the process of becoming a vampire?
With no head? No. Might want to consecrate her body just to be sure (she might arise as some spirit after being betrayed by her sister and prevented from rising as a corporeal undead) but that's not an urgent matter.
Osric isn't saying anything, but a fairly easy Sense Motive would confirm he is very uneasy with this conversation.
No response from Osric for the dead body?
So. I think it's about time to call it. I've been unmotivated to post for a while now, and that's on me. Every time I've had people dropped and replaced with new players my motivation has taken a bit of a hit, and I think this last time was the breaking point. I used to post once a day, sometimes multiple times a day, but at this point I find myself posting once every week at most, and that's not fair to anyone. It sucks to cut a game short so close to the end, and I thank you all for playing, but I'm going to end the game here.
I wish you luck in your future games, and you've all been great. I'll leave this thread up for a few more days before hiding it so it doesn't just disappear on y'all.
I'm sorry to hear that, but I understand. Everyone has to be having fun for the game to work, including the GM. Thanks for the opportunity.
Well, thanks for sticking with it for so long. It's been fun.
Likewise. It is sad to hear that this has to end this way and you are unable to continue. But it has been a great ride. Thank you for the game.