That's no too bad. Doesn't actually list CL as req, so 6000 in material and the cost of a fairly common scroll, and a week of maglins time. I see more RATions in Cain's future as he saves.
You do realize as my wisdom and caster level goes up, the cost of using psionic power to make It so I don't have to eat or drink remains at 1 point, so it's more and more likely I'll just have one point left over at the end of the day
My character's standby gimmick is to drink and vomit back up the same potion multiple times a day. That's not flavor or fluff, that's RAW. It was a cheap joke just for the pun fun of it, not an actual criticism. I've really enjoyed seeing more Cain interactions
GM Choon - I'm not saying I'm selecting it for sure, but the extract/spell Deathwine allows me to alter a potion to provide limited healing to undead or boost necromancy spells. I get that extracts aren't potions specifically to avoid cheese, but for the purpose os Deathwine would you be open to my Extracts counting as Potions? It would mean using a lvl 2 Extract on a different extract to do it, so there is a strong tax there.
If yes I plan on using this to potentially heal vance through which we have no alternative and to help buff Vuzi spells
Edit- Unrelated Follow up, are we still using avg roll for HP or rolling for lvl ups?
Cain is not very confident with social interaction
How do you deal with problems that you aren't supposed to stab?
I recommend a good internal monologue. Use that as inspiration and have your character express (physically or otherwise) frustration that he is a living weapon. I'm not sure which direction it leans, but it good be harsh and tragic like Rocket from Guardians of the Galaxy or glorious thrill and wanting to do what your best at like Deadpool. Punisher came out on Netflix and that would be a beautiful way to take it as well. You have a built in sparring/rp partner with your psicrystal to play off of too.
Yeah dude, the rock is a brilliant choice.
I don't want to give unsolicited advice, but I would love to have a conversation about Cain, if you'd like.
The psycrystal has the warrior personality but it also has no method for attacking
Not much of a sparing partner (that's kinda the point of him at this point in the story, I will later be using an aegis customization to change that to some extent)
Rest of that advice isn't bad, though I definitely am not a punisher fan.
Least favorite "superhero"
He definitely leans more towards the rocket "I didn't ask to be made" raccoon rather than Wade "the mouth" Wilson
Also sure Mags, if you like
I don't really watch superhero television shows, myself. I know a little of what you're talking about, but that's not really important. What follows is my advice. It is my opinion, which is not meant to offend, and it's meant to be helpful for you. Let me know if you disagree with anything, or if you want me to elaborate, or if I'm being unhelpful and you want me to shut up.
Stanislavski, one of the fathers of modern acting, advises never to act "in general". That is, never think of a character as a stereotype. All those different superheroes? If they are well written, they aren't the same. They are unique, just like every human ever to have existed, and if they are well written none of them will say or do things just because it seems to fit the stereotype better. If the writers have a person brood on their tragic past just because everyone else that fits the character's stereotype ("I didn't ask to be made" superhero) does that, they aren't doing a good job. People brood because they want to. People do things because of a complex set of motivations.
So, what are Cain's motivations? Here's a link to a post where you described Cain's "admittedly basic backstory." We see a few things. 1) Cain had a fine family, and a decent childhood. 2) Cain gets captured by Chelaxians who experiment on him in an attempt to make him a better soldier. 3) Cain escapes by cutting his way out. 4) He decides to go to Rappan Athuk to "test his mettle." In my opinion, the link between 3) and 4) is weak, which leads to a character who does not have enough motivation. He wants vengeance, badly. That's a strong motive. However, the link between his vengeance and Rappan Athuk is unclear to me.
Why does Rappan Athuk in particular help him get vengeance? There are plenty of other ways to gain strength, and plenty of other ways to test oneself. Was it just the first place he happened upon? In which case, how did he get there, and what did he do in the time in between? Or did he assess the ways to get vengeance and determine that Rappan Athuk was the best way to get it? You don't need to tell me the answers to these questions, you don't even need to write them down, but you should know what they are.
Once you know what Cain's motivation is, you know why he's here in Rappan Athuk and what he's trying to get. You know what he's doing, and you know how that helps him to get what he wants. At that point, you have a second set of obstacles.
Cain is, as you have pointed out, not very confident with social interaction. Internal monologue is great, but quite limited. It doesn't allow opportunity for growth by interaction with others, and, quite frankly, it's ussually kindof boring. You want to use it, but you really don't want it to be the only tool in your toolbox. You want Cain to be able to interact with people in meaningful, interesting ways. But Cain doesn't want to do that.
That's actually not a bad thing. Cain is here, he's down in the dark with the rest of us, we're going to see him. He doesn't have a choice. He has emotions, and displays them consciously and unconsciously, just like everyone else. When he gets a crit on an ogre, he lets out a cry. When his pet rock says something funny, we can see his reaction to that before he can. Even if he doesn't want it to be, his emotional life is on display, and that's your first opportunity to express his character. And it's way more interesting than just reading his thoughts.
And then, on top of that, there's another layer. He knows that we see him. He knows that, like it or not, he's a person, just like the rest of us. Cain hits an ogre, Cain sees that he's done a lot of damage, Maglin sees Cain's excitement, Cain sees his own excitement, and that Maglin sees it, and then has to reconcile that with his social anxiety. He might do that by evolving as a character and realizing that it's okay that Maglin can see him. Or maybe he doesn't, and because he's afraid of interacting with people, he interacts with Maglin to let him know that that display of excitement was uncharacteristic. Or something else. There's opportunity here, and I don't think you should be worried about Cain being socially anxious.
Ultimately, however, I think you should reexamine Cain's motivation for being in Rappan Athuk before you try to tackle the problem that he isn't very personable. I suspect that, in doing that, the other problem will work itself out.
does anyone know what's at the end of the Rappan Athuk?
like any kind of specific treasure?
originally I was going to have the dungeon here being just the first dungeon he's encountered that seems like a good enough challenge.
if he was in numeria he'd be delving the space ship.
but if I know like, who made this dungeon or what's in it I might have a better answer
No one knows how the dungeon came about exactly. Legends tell of an army of light chasing a cult of Orcus deep underground. Artifacts recovered from the site generally point to the conclusion that something happened to the army of light because no one has heard from them since they chased off the priests of orchus and three is evidence of cult activity within the dungeon.
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The endpoint could be more personal then material. Just throwing out ideas here. I don't remember much of your backstory, so my bad if any of this I'd repetitive or unhelpful.
In real life, I'm 6'8". Growing up one of my sisters used to pick on kids mercilessly until they finally fought back. She then ran to me and cried for help. I would beat the kid up. She used the threat of my violence to her own advantage. Worse yet she would then use that against me, saying I was nothing but a thug.
Where I work now I was hired for my brains, and on paper that's where I'm most effective, but outside of my boss most I work with only want to see my brawn. They come out just to see me detain people, talk about how scary it must be to go against me, or the strangers that approach me on the street to brag that they could take me in a fight because they know how to take down big guys like me.
I know what its like to be seen only as a weapon, to care and want to help but constantly be reminded that every one sees you as nothing more than a violent creature.
I see Cain the character in the same light. Theres no denying that he has talents in combat, but inside he just wants to be a good person even if he's still learning how to do that. What if coming to Rappan Athuk to 'test his mettle' wasn't an act of strength but of his heart. The world sees you as a weapon, as a beast good only for killing, fine, you show them. You seek out the biggest baddest evil in the world and you prove that even if you are a weapon, you are still good, the people that created you don't define you, you define you. This could be a journey of reclaiming what was taken from you, that you will prove that Marko Cain will be seen as the good person you know you are, or die trying.
Thanks for sharing, Dalkk. That looks like some very helpful advice to me.
GM Choon does Maglin know about how powerful the paladin is? Would he splat us good?
Give me a kn:history roll to find out! :)
Take ten for a result of 25, unless a roll is required, in which case...
He was one of the leaders of the Army of Light. If he turned dark, he would be a formidable opponent indeed. He was known for dispatching agents of evil, especially undead like the ones you have already encountered, with ease.
Yes Dalkk thank you for sharing. I've never thought about some random person walking up to someone else and threatening them just because of their size.
I'm a short girl so most people just back over me because I"m below their peripheral vision level.
Just so you know, Maglin, detect poison is an Instantaneous spell, so it doesn't work like detect magic. Nothing wrong with your fluff so far, but I'm getting the feeling you think it does work like detect magic.
I did think that...thanks for pointing it out.
GM Choon, I've got an invisibility related rules quandry to bring to your attention.
What invisibility actually does is a bit confusing. I recently read over a thread which discussed the various DCs to notice invisible people.
This post breaks things down nicely.
Basically, there is a debate over what the base DC is, and what modifiers to apply to it.
My current understanding is that there is a DC of 20 to notice someone who is invisibile (not to pinpoint their square). That is then modified by the modifiers on this table.
In Simon's case, that means a base DC of 20. He modifies this by -5 for moving at half speed. He then modifies this by his stealth check +20 (one of the modifiers on the table). His stealth check + 20 was 49, and when added to the base DC of 20 and further modified by the -5 for moving at half speed, we get a final perception DC of 64.
I've gone back and forth at least once over whether or not this is counting a 20 twice, but ultimately I think this is the RAW. I also think that this is just the DC to notice his presence, and it would be DC 84 to pinpoint him, because of the line above the table: "It’s practically impossible (+20 DC) to pinpoint an invisible creature’s location with a Perception check." If he were holding still, there would be yet another +20 modifier, so if he were holding still it would be DC 84 to notice that something was afoot and DC 104 to pinpoint him.
That seems...high. Also, this means that an invisible creature gets a bonus against blind people, I think, but hey, it's magic, and that's what it does. Doesn't break suspension of disbelief for me that an invisibility spell makes you quiet, just means it's not got the most descriptive name. As a point of comparison, strong jaw explicitly can make claws more deadly.
Again, I've gone back and forth on this at least once. I also haven't read through all of this thread, which in my opinion is the one with the best arguments. There are lots of others, including at least one misguided faq attempt.
Just wanted to bring this to your attention, GM Choon, I'm fine with whatever you end up ruling, or even you not telling us what you rule, so as to preserve tension. I'm of the attitude that the rulebook is basically a set of guidelines.
Oh man this post (and the discussion therein) is a real mess...
I'd be totally ok with an RAI interpretation over strict RAW here, so:
DC20 to detect invisible
DC20+Stealth to detect stealthing invisible
--> But without adding another +20 on the stealth roll for being invisible
Otherwise .... well, good thing I have the Faerie Fire spell and we really should buy some flavor to throw around in case of invisible enemies...
Also I request one invisible elexier a day, then go 'shopping' for good measure once we're back in town ;-)
Yeah, I think I prefer ruling that it's just straight +20 bonus to stealth and you roll that opposite perception and that's it. With another +20 if you hold still, and another +20 to actually pinpoint you. So in the end it'd be DC 44 to detect Simon under that system.
I don't think that's RAW, though. Again, I really don't care what ends up happening, because I trust the GM.
I have ruled in the past and have always understood that Invisibility gives you a +20 to your stealth roll if you're moving and +40 if you're standing still. If you make any kind of significant noise it's a DC 20+1/foot check to locate your square.
You also can give away your position via stepping in puddles or otherwise interacting clearly with the environment, as mentioned.
Detect Magic is also a (very inefficient and rather ineffective) way to determine where and invisible something is. Detect magic WILL reveal your aura, but not your square until round 3, and that's if you stand still. And the caster needs a reason to have that spell running in the first place. Without these checks, Invisibility becomes a little too powerful, IMHO.
TL;DR I agree with Choon
I can't actually find the excerpt people are quoting saying that 'generally it is DC20 perception to detect an invisible creature within 30ft.' I've seen page 563 cited but my hardcopy is at the game house. I think that they're referring to the Perception table which includes 3 relevant pieces of information.
Notice a visible creature | DC0
Notice a creature using stealth | DC Opposed by Stealth Check
Modifiers
Creature or object is invisible | +20DC
I believe the 'generally it is DC20 to detect invisible' is from the last line.
I think that the argument they're saying is that one could get the +10/20/40 flat for the stealth check and the observer still adds +20 to their Perception DC, effectively granting the invisibility bonus twice.
I don't believe however that the modifier applies to the stealth check. It makes sense to me that an invisible creature or object that isn't actively trying to hide is a DC20 to find. Perhaps this is even written to make sure that someone with a negative stealth bonus couldn't boost his ability to hide by going invisible and claim that he wasn't using stealth.
The greatest anti cheese rule of them all also states that with only few exceptions, typed bonuses don't stack. Vuzi's Guidance is +1 Morale and Dalkk's heroism is +2 Morale, so he only gets the +2. As the invisibility bonus is already included in the Stealth check it is already being accounted for and not subject to the modifier.
Yes Dalkk thank you for sharing. I've never thought about some random person walking up to someone else and threatening them just because of their size.
I'm a short girl so most people just back over me because I"m below their peripheral vision level.
Yeah, some King of the Mountain BS. I'm sure it's just a case of the grass is always greener, but I've always wanted to be short. I hope no one actually runs over you!
I'm a just under six foot male distinctly of north-central european descent. Is pretty easy to look like me. I've actually heard of people struggling to describe me because my description just registers as "that white guy" to most people. :P
@Cain: Yeah, that's just what the doctor ordered!
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I'm a just under six foot male distinctly of north-central european descent. Is pretty easy to look like me. I've actually heard of people struggling to describe me because my description just registers as "that white guy" to most people. :P
yeah
My strategy for dealing with that is to grow a beard and wear glasses
Really?
I (also male) have long hair (read: Well past shoulder length) and wear an ankle-long, black leather coat during the cold months for that.
The gazes while riding the train (as well as the water&wind proof property) makes this one of the very best purchases of my life ;-)
185cm and about 100kg of weight are enough to be upper middle ground around central Europe - whatever those are in legacy units no one knows or uses anymore :-P
You're just barely shy of 6'1" and 220 lbs. :)
The weird thing is I'm not a tiny sized girl. I'm just short enough to be below their vision. I've been stepped back into several times in stores, and at parties.
Vuzi goes running and my first thought is 'I still have harpoon bolts'
So for realzies. Emily is down, Vuzi is down, Maglin is TBD (I think 65% chance to fail his save), Simon is suboptimal but up, Dalkk is a 1.5 rounds from optimal, Cain is up (and glorious I might add).
I think that on our best day we could handle this uphill. Today is not that day. Anyone else feel like a tactical retreat is in order?
Uh retreat after crit?
Yeah. Its a hell of a hit, but really it comes down to how well you feel solo'ing a big bad powerful enough to warrent a f+!+ off room in front of his actual layer. Remember that fear is 10 rounds out, plus 10 rounds back.
Vuzi has some buffs, debuffs, and necromatic control. If Maglin goes too then almost all our magic is gone. Simon is just about out as a fighter, a summoned monster might be his best bet. Emily is out as both a damage sponge and combative. Dalk can either start averaging 5dmg a round ish now, or 14 if he takes 2 rounds to prepare.
That said, if you think we got it, Dalkk won't leave without you, but you are our first, second, and last solution. So you tell me Cain, you got this?
Edit: We might have a shot now after that spell. Cain is still our primary on this one I think, and should have lead on direction and such.
I'd like to see how much damage he does first, but I'm inclined to say that yes, we should probably run away. That being said, we did just get pretty lucky and have most of us make that difficult will save, so this could be an opportunity.
Haste is as good for running away as it is for hurting things, and I'm not about to skimp on spells.
Simon's mostly good unless it has DR, I think, since he gets to sneak attack and still has a flanking bonus. He's probably better off not attacking and summoning, so as to preserve his invisibility for if we do decide to run.
I'd try to be ready to kill it, because if it isn't killing Cain that fast, it'd be a good thing to do. But in the end, running is fine. We can always come back later buffed to the gills.
Fine, I'll run if you do, but I'll be the last to run.
Simon's mostly good unless it has DR, I think, since he gets to sneak attack and still has a flanking bonus. He's probably better off not attacking and summoning, so as to preserve his invisibility for if we do decide to run.
Even CR1 skellys have dr5 vs slash and stab, I can't imagine this is the one super skelly that it skipped. I'm hoping that the summon creature doesn't drop his invisibility
I'd try to be ready to kill it, because if it isn't killing Cain that fast, it'd be a good thing to do. But in the end, running is fine. We can always come back later buffed to the gills.
That was my thought, we know where he is and what he is. A strong plan can give us a crap ton of an advantage
Yeah. I assume there's some sort of thing we can do to get a big boost versus fear. Some obscure alchemical item or a spell we don't normally prepare, something of that nature. If we have plenty of time to buff up I don't think we'll die.
Edit: found a +5 bonus vs fear. It doesn't have a craft DC, so maybe we can't actually make it?
Further investigation on archives of Nethys shows that it's DC 20 to craft. We can do that, if we have the materials.
Alchrmically its just Mellowroot, but its not craftable so it would take a surface trip. Dunno about spells though. I could push Heroism onto Cain and Simon though if we had time and spread around the holy weapon love. Walk in with summoned monsters already called out, true strikes, shield spells etc.
If anyone can hit with that Pheromone bolt, any creature with Scent ability (Simon, summoned creatures, any spell that will grant Cain Scent) will gain +2 atk and dmg. Should help with the dr
Munchkinism incoming:
1. Is sneak attack damage part of the damage roll thus the same kind of damage or rather some untyped damage in addition? If the former ... I am likely to do about 0 damage even on a above average roll. Holy weapon balm only stays active for one attack, so not that useful as well, but also nothing to sneeze at.
2. Looking up frightened condition and researching the forum a bit: You don't run away for the full duration. It is enough to get out of sight of the danger (and stay there!). So at the very least you don't run into another room of pain or so far back that it takes another 10 rounds to return. I don't know maybe Vuzi can even cone up with a clever way of helping without having line of sight to the battle?
3. Summon does explicitly not disrupt invisibility. That's why most summoners run around with a wand of invisibility. So that's a fair option, although I doubt its efficiency against powerful boss monsters. They are notoriously hard to hit and summons usually do not have a high atk-bonus.
4. If we run away, I'll pop smoke just below him, shrouding everything further off than 5ft.
5. Another option would to pass the bbg invisibly and buff Cain with barkskin. I should be pretty immune to AoOs isn't that right? Can't attack what you can't (clearly) see, eh?
Sneak attack is precision damage, it doesn't count DR separately. Also, I think they're panicked and not frightened, which is more severe.
Actually.. All 3 options aren't bad, and I don't think any of them would drop your invisibility. Plus your continuously moving. If he had true sight or some variation there of he'd of seen you.
Cain's ability is the only one that matters here. If he falls, we fall. I would prioritize Barskin on him, then summon. I'll leave it up to Cain if he wants to play concealment games (20%?) With the skelly. For all I know Cain has a way to get through the smokes concealment.
The other advantage with the skelly getting smoked is that he can't specifically target anyone with spells until he can see. Doesn't stop him from casting, but fallen pally gurantees enemy caster.
If anyone can get a swarm creature in play the distraction side effect could save us.
I could also slap a protection from evil on Cain for another +2 deflection and resistance to saves.
Might be better to try something else though.
I definitely like the smoke idea.
F&#&! That's what I was trying to remember. I don't know if Vuzi has made it out of the room yet or not, but if you hit her with that she should get a fresh will save. Barring that though, yeah, another bonus on Cain would be great.
In theory though... If vuzi started to flee during this round, and Maglin is at the door, he can probably catch her for a touch spell before the next? Especially if Vance, still not having acted yet, stops her forcibly? I doubt we could get both her and Emily in time though
She does not get another save, unfortunately, it's only affects that actually try to control her mind. At least, I don't think she gets another save. I had thought of it as my round 2 action, but it seems clear enough from the description.
Here's the spell description. Note the following, "another saving throw (if one was allowed to begin with) against any spells or effects that possess or exercise mental control over the creature (including enchantment [charm] effects and enchantment [compulsion] effects, such as charm person, command, and dominate person)."
The accepted answer from here states the problem very clearly.
If one accepts Fear causing effect as "Mind Affecting" then it works, otherwise: nope.
Another RAI way of looking at it: has the spell/su/whatever causes this fear (probably frightful presence if I may take a guess) the evil desciptor or is it a inherit evil creature (I am inclined to say yes, since ... well a fallen, undead paladin probably is evil) then the spell should probably work, looking at it's description and intention.