So this is why I like to discuss house-rules before implementation
Yes, Tanjvats is correct, if you are off ahead sneaking alone, you will use yours as an individual, but the question is, at what distance is ahead alone? Also, when noticed as a group, each member still has their individual roll to determine which of the group were seen or heard when the group as a whole was noticed. As the rule said when I proposed it "Everyone gets their individual rolls for sake of surprise and such, or when alone,"
Lets look at the rolls just made, and take them individually. Mainly, we'll look at the highest and lowest.
Dareon at 5
Oz at 21
So if we have a guard, with a 10 perception, what do these mean individually?
That Oz can get as close as possible, adjacent even, as long as he maintains cover or concealment. But Dareon will come to their attention at 50' away. So, how far ahead of Dareon will Oz be when the guard is not surprised (because they hear Dareon at 50')?
Next, brings the question of how far away/ahead is not part of group stealth? Oz can't see in the dark, and only has human vision, meaning he can only see what's within 40' (the shadow distance) of Light, Dancing Lights, or a torch. Unless he is in a lit environment, and then his stealth is reliant on cover and not shadow. So how far exactly can he get as a scout before he is not considered as part of the party stealth?
We also have to look at what his great stealth does for the group as a whole. Looking at the math for the rolls I just did:
With Oz, total of 72, for a 14 stealth
without Oz, total of 51, for a 12 stealth
Now that may not be much difference, but I'll go ahead and use the numbers I rolled for perception. One is an 18, meaning that they will notice the party (with Oz's help) only when they are 40' away (18-14=4 +1 Stealth/10'). Without Oz's help, they will notice the party at 60' away.
Now, by including Oz, the whole party can get closer before being noticed, and any individual that had higher than an 18 stealth (Oz and Faedrin) still get a surprise round.
Does it make more sense/seem more reasonable now?
Now, with that all said...
Are you guys establishing an order of march? Are you continuing to use dancing lights (how many lights and where are they in relation to the party)? Will that be your only light source, or will you have multiples (light cast on something, someone carrying a torch or lantern)?
Does Oz scout, if so, how far ahead since he is limited by the range of his vision?
Remember, searching for traps is an ACTIVE action, meaning it is on the player to declare they are searching for them, but noticing things using stealth is passive.
Also, if the group is stealthing, their speed is 10'/move (or 20'/round), but I imagine it is worth the pace to avoid the -5 penalty.
I will have a map up in a bit, just remember, I will show up to 80' away from the light source, but only Fade can see that far (the last 40' in shadow). Tanjvats can only see 60', and everyone else is left with seeing only 40' away from the light source (the last 20' in shadow).
I proposed a marching in order in the gameplay thread, and apart from Dareon taking point I haven't heard back one way or another yet.
I also indicated in that post that my plan for the dancing lights was to keep them up at the ceiling between 10 and 15 feet in front of Dareon. That would afford the less keen-eyed amongst us to see up to 35 feet in front of us and Faedrin himself could see up to 55 feet ahead. (Torches, and by extension dancing lights, only shed light in a 20ft radius).
If anyone else wants to provide a secondary light source, feel free.
That you did, thank you for the reminder.
Though sadly there was little acknowledgement by the others as to agreeing or not.
I also forgot to mention, that almost every hallway here is 10' wide, and 10' tall (or more). The only 5' was that secret tunnel. So do you want to stay single file, or given the width do you want a two-man marching order?
In my experience as a player, single file (generally) keeps the party less vulnerable to traps (one person gets hit instead of two). But Faedrin's not experienced at this at all though and would either slip forward or back to be shoulder-to-shoulder with someone.
Okay, the map is updated, using Faedrin's suggested marching order, but I would REALLY like to hear from more than just one person on this. Most importantly, remember the "Actions not taken, are actions not performed." idea.
I will continue forward once I hear from more people on this.
The room you are in is the room with bones all over the floor. The indents are the burial niches. The 'C' in the circle is where the opening in the ceiling is located. And the little sun is the light source (dancing lights) so everyone can keep track of how far they can see from it.
Also, regarding the group stealth idea, unless Oz has a means of acquiring darkvision, I don't think he'll be able to scout all that far ahead in these circumstances without compromising his position with a light source.
Considering that, do you still want to take point Oz? If so, do you want to be ahead of Dareon by a particular distance (10 ft? 20 ft?)?
Dareon would want to be in front, but if Oz wants to walk in front of him or beside him, I guess that's fine. It's just that the thing is, Dareon doesn't really trust his compatriots to not get hurt as much as he can.
I'm happy in the marching order given: with Tanjvats second to last.
I also understand the need for light, and how it spoils stealth, etc. and I'm willing to cast light on something if someone else wants it. Always a challenge to be sneaky when you can't see and have folks around you that aren't.
One option is to have the scout at 20-25' in front of the torch (or dancing light in this case). He can stay in the normal light (20') to search for stuff, and can step into the dim light section (25'-40') to Stealth against those who don't have darkvision.
The rule that I think is hardest to handle is the rule for low-light vision. Faedrin, as an elf, gains 40' normal light and 40' more dim light from the same torch that is giving the rest of us 20+20., meaning he can already see 40ft further on the map than the rest of us.
IMO, that rule is simply unplayable from a practical standpoint. (DM has to reveal extra areas to a sub-set of the party every time a light source is moved.) Which is why I usually house-rule that low-light vision simply means you treat dim light like normal light.
But, there's more time to handle such things in PbP, so I'll stop kvetching.
I dunno, Dareon is kind of for just abandoning stealth and going through this area with swords and fire.
I think that will probably be our approach after our first run in with some Tower Girls, Dareon. Until then though, I think we want to maintain whatever element of surprise we're able to.
If any of the 3 arcane casters ever make it to 3rd level, they could cast it on you. It's a 1 hour per level duration, so that's nice.
Dareon ain't taking "infusion" anytime soon, and Fade will get 2nd level spells at the same time Oz does (assuming Oz is a rogue1/wizard3 at 4th and Fade doesn't multiclass). It's probably gonna be Oz casting it on himself.
I will likely dip into rogue to make the social skills class skills. If not that, than perhaps archaeologist bard for the class skills *and* layered buffs. We'll see!
Uriah has a floating Ioun torch, so the dazzling lights could be placed a little forward if so desired. Also, I wouldn't mind taking rear guard, unless Faedrin is uncomfortable with an ex-scarzi at his back.
Does anyone know of a way to set a default avatar per game? I.e. So you don't have to keeping selecting an avatar when you change games.
Faedrin'd be more comfortable with Uriah in front of him not because he's ex-Scarzi, but because Uriah's deaf and probably easier to sneak up upon. If Uriah wants the rearguard position though, Faedrin certainly won't argue. So whichever order Uriah prefers in this case is what we'll go with.
As for the alias, I think it defaults to the lowest, alphabetically speaking, of your active characters on the campaign's characters tab. If you've got more than Uriah in there, I believe Aard should be able to remove the extras.
I know that the alias that you use in a game moves to the top of your list, and if you've only ever posted with that alias, it's automatically selected. Unfortunately, I've posted with my "leinathan" alias in most of my games, so I just have to move one down.
These are the items I found that grant constant darkvision:
goggles of night - 12,000 gp
belt of dwarven kind - 14,900 gp
cat's eye crown - 18,000 gp
darklands goggles - 20,000 gp
moon circlet - 20,000 gp
eyes of the dragon - 110,000 gp
robe of eyes - 120,000 gp
EDIT: Becoming a wererat would also grant you constant darkvision. How much you value your humanity would determine how cheap that'd be =P
Updated the map again, I mismeasured Fade's vision. The front is as far as Fade sees (there is a wall ahead), the back is as far as Tanjvats sees (10' further than Fade based on light).
On the other hand, getting killed is free and getting a reincarnation is only 1,480gp, and has something like a 35% chance of turning you into a creature with darkvision and a further 35% chance of turning you into a creature with low-light vision.
:D
On the other hand, getting killed is free and getting a reincarnation is only 1,480gp, and has something like a 35% chance of turning you into a creature with darkvision and a further 35% chance of turning you into a creature with low-light vision.
:D
I kill Oz and wait for the thank you gift.
Is it a pony? I want a pony.
First, I love that this group posts as if there is no tomorrow. It's not secret that I'm having trouble keeping up. Work has gotten busy of late. I will endeavor to do better.
Now, with that all said...
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Remember, searching for traps is an ACTIVE action, meaning it is on the player to declare they are searching for them, but noticing things using stealth is passive.
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Aard, I know we have had this debate before, but I thought I would try once more. I don't wholly agree that searching for traps ought to be a purely active action. Just as a stealthed being can be noticed passively by an opponent (as in your argument above), so too can a trap be noticed by a being, since a trap essentially has stealth until discovered. I would propose that trapfinding and spotting secret doors should be subject to a character's passive perception, albeit with circumstance modifier applied.
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yeah, about that, I'm of the type that believes that, as a rogue, we naturally detected traps as we walked around like they were stealthed, sort of.
This is coming from the guy who also believes that barbarians and rogues are the only people who can see them, though... That rule I *do* throw out, usually.
I was mulling over the best way to explain my stance on this, but I think your use of the word passive resolved that.
The difference between the two is:
You can notice passively, an active event
You must actively find a passive object.
It is best reflected by the Gargoyle. They get to take 20 on stealth by remaining perfectly still. Basically, they become hard to 'find' by the fact they become an unmoving object. You still see them, heck they are plain as day statues, but because they are still as stone, you have to almost inspect them personally to realize it's not what it looks like.
Same thing with traps and secret doors. You see them, they look like flagstones, statues, bookcases, sections of wall, locks/hinges, but it's not seeing them that you need to do. It's discerning them for what they are.
Whereas with things in hiding, or changes in the environment, the perception is to 'see/feel' them at all.
Now, I can understand the trepidation, especially with the no take 10/20 rule. But, all the same, I don't require a roll for every 10 feet. If you actively perceive, I use that roll until you come across what is perceivable.
So, like Faedrin and Dareon, both actively rolled Perception. When they rolled it, there was nothing to see, but as soon as Fade's was close enough that his roll would see it, I presented it.
The tripwire was a DC 15. Fade rolled a 20 Perc when you all entered the hallway, so as soon as he was 50' away (DC for Perc is +1/10' away) he noticed. Had Oz rolled higher, he could have noticed it sooner (as soon as the light allowed him to see it).
Just a side note: I really like that you faithfully use the distance modifiers to perception, Aard. This may be the first game I've ever played in where it's been implemented uniformly and I dig it.
I'm comfortable with these perception mechanics, and also like the 10' incremental mods being implemented.
It certainly makes the trap spotter Rogue talent very useful.
Yes!
Thank you for that Tanj, I knew there was a mechanical tool that agreed with my method, but wasn't sure where to find it. That right there answers it.
A rouge talent, specifically grants the ability to find them passively, and only then when within 10'. This here just tells me that the base is that they need to be looked for actively, and you have to take a special ability to find them passively.
Also, Oz, you are aware it's your turn?
I like your last explanation. So, going forward, will the "stealthed" object's/creature's state of action, or lack thereof, be the deciding factor as to whether an applicable sensory skill check should be a passive/active check?
To my knowledge, being deaf does not affect stealth checks. This doesn't make sense to me. When a pc attempts to use stealth, I would think that he is doing two things... trying to reduce others perception of him visually, a well as aurally. In order to do this the pc has to rely on his own senses to moderate his position and movement. How does a blind person know whether or not he is visible. How does a deaf person know whether he is making any sound, save for tactile biofeedback.
I'm not asking for a penalty for my stealth checks... just raising the question.
Interesting question on stealth by deaf people. I don't know enough abut how acute the tactile/"vibration" sense of deaf people is. So I can't argue the point from a IRL standpoint. Should it be -4? -10?
In game, there seems to still be a penalty...not to the Stealth roll itself, but to the interaction of Stealth and Perception rolls made between sneakers and sneakees.
For example, imagine Oz not hearing the Tower Girl's "Who goes there", and what that might mean for how the current little scenario plays out. The deaf PC might still think he's not been noticed, while the guard has gone back and recruited, trained and equipped an entire army.
So, the mechanics of Stealth>Perception>Countermeasure in-game is likely to put deaf PCs at a significant disadvantage without a modifier to the Stealth roll itself. It's just a bit harder to measure and adjudicate.
I don't think Oz had to make a perception check to hear the girl presumably because she spoke at a volume intended for someone around the corner to hear. But, you're right, Uriah would have been completely unaware of her call. That however isn't a function of Uriah's stealth but rather his perception.
I think to avoid overly complicating the situation, deafness ought to incur a -4 penalty to stealth checks. While a deaf person may be well aware of the vibrations felt when walking on gravel, he would have no baseline for how loud walking on gravel may be.
Then again, it's easier just to keep the rules as is.
I like your last explanation. So, going forward, will the "stealthed" object's/creature's state of action, or lack thereof, be the deciding factor as to whether an applicable sensory skill check should be a passive/active check?
Just to be clear, it is not 'just not acting' that makes you have to be actively perceived. In the instance of the Gargoyle (or a Caryatid Column) they have special abilities that mean they stand so still they look like statues.
A PC cannot say "well, I stand still" and be considered not active.
It is more like inanimate objects are inactive, events or animate objects are active.
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As for Deaf penalties to Stealth, I'd rather not. Deaf has plenty of penalties. You also get a -4 Perception to opposed checks, like someone stealthed, beyond the inability to even make sound based perception checks (as perceiving stealth is a combination of all the senses).
A PC cannot say "well, I stand still" and be considered not active.
It is more like inanimate objects are inactive, events or animate objects are active.
Unless you're a ninja.
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A PC cannot say "well, I stand still" and be considered not active.
It is more like inanimate objects are inactive, events or animate objects are active.
I think a person could stand still with plenty of practice. What sets gargoyles apart is that they look like statues. Their stealth works because they look like statues and can remain still enough to pull off the ruse.
I would expect a pc employing camouflage would gain similar bonuses when trying to defeat the perception of anyone passing by.
Incidentally, would camouflage be a Stealth or a Disguise check?
"I promise, I'm actually grass!"
or "Hey you can't see me shhhh"
It looks as if disguise only serves to change your identity, based on the modifiers for the type of change attempted. You can change your sex, race, age, and even size.
There is a rouge based talent for camouflage, which provides a +4 bonus to stealth checks.
"rouge based" camouflage: the most effective way to hide in a crowd of prostitutes.
:-)
One of the prostitutes says, "Is that an inanimate, inactive object in your pocket, or are you just happy that your Perception check beat my Stealth?"
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Gentlemen! I viciously apologize, but spring break recently started, so I'm doing a lot of moving, so, bare with me on the posting. I'll make sure to do what I can, but tomorrow is the earliest I'll be able to do a post, so, Aard, if it's okay, would you please dmpc for me atleast on this second or first turn? My apologies.
No prob, I appreciate the head's up.
I'm guessing posting here also informs Lein for his game, two birds one stone.
About my computer issue, it's still being stupid, so I can't update the map. So I will just have to try and base it off what I have.
My Skull & Shackles game died, and I have decided to scrap it and start over with Mummy's Mask. As such I have started an invite only recruitment thread, and everyone here is encouraged to apply to the game. I still have a few players from the previous game, so am only looking for 2 players. I may possibly need up to 4, based on whether all my S&S players are staying or not, in order to get a 6 person team.
Link to the recruitment
Glad to see your recruitment for Mummy's Mask was an overwhelming success, Aard =) I took a peek Friday morning with the intent to check out the competition and maybe present a dude of my own but was overwhelmed at how much attention it'd already garnered. I had expected a smaller net to be cast for just two slots, but it was heartening and encouraging to see so many eager applicants. And, with so many good ones, I figured I'd just observe instead. =P
I hope you, the chosen two, and the other reserved players enjoy the game!
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I've actually managed to narrow down my favored games to Aard's and Leinathan's. These are the best one's Ive ever played, and I intend to ride out Leinathan's until the whole campaign is over, as I am with this one.
Unfortunately I've not managed to give this one as much love as I have his as it takes somewhat priority and something always manages to come up when I type for this one, but now that I've got the reigns on college again I'll be posting quite a bit whenever my turn comes around now. Sincerest apologies for the spottiness, however.
Oz
First, let me say I'm glad you are back and able to have more time. However, make sure you are cognizant of the rules you are using in these instances with two-weapon fighting, what you have at hand, and ranged attacks in combat.
- AoO's: Had Dareon not soaked them, you would provoke by using a ranged attack.
- Drawing a weapon: It is a move-action, but I took into account your wrist sheath which is a swift (as your last action was a throw leaving you one dagger shy).
- Ranged attack mods: There is a -4 penalty for firing into melee, and the girl would have had a +4 AC due to cover (lucky for you it was a Nat 20)
- Two-weapon Fighting: It is a Full-round action anytime you take more than 1 attack/rnd (excluding AoO's). So, you could not normally take a move action and two-weapon fight. Also, two-weapon fighting, under the best conditions reduces your attack rolls by -2 each hand (without specific feats/traits/abilities that reduce it). Also, off-hand attacks only get half Str mod to damage (rounded down, would be +0 for you)
Technically, your attack rolls were at an additional -6, and the girl got a +4 AC for cover (again that nat 20 saved you).
This time I just rolled with it, but as I said, this is a game of actions. If you do not declare them, you do not take them. I went ahead and assumed you drew another dagger from a wrist sheath, but next time, I will take you at what you do or do not declare. In this instance, it would have only been 1 attack, off your first attack roll, and you would have been too empty-handed to have received the second attack roll.
Unless otherwise noted in a house rule, I play strictly by RAW, and if this will likely be your combat style (throwing two-handed), then it is incumbent on you as the player of the build to be very familiar with all the rules that apply to your character.
I apologize if it seems ranty, but it makes it more work for each of my posts if I have to look at anyone's character to apply what I think they could do in order to perform the actions they said they did.